Lebron's team lost in 11, 14 and 16' due to inferior brand of basketball, not talent [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

06-12-2016, 12:28 PM

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Lebron's teams are prone to inferior brand of basketball because his presence as a 2nd point guard is REDUNDANT.

Point guards have low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw them assists) and high time of possession - so with TWO point guards on the floor, the remaining teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams who only have 1 point guard..

When teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball, that promotes an inferior brand of basketball.. This explains why 3 of Lebron's Finals losses were due to inferior brand of basketball, not talent.. And it also explains why many other players have done better than 2/7, even though they didn't collude and play with a Big 3.
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MP.Trey

06-12-2016, 12:34 PM

Definitely true in 2011. Dallas had way better chemistry and it was Wade/LeBron's first finals together. True enough in 2014, injuries played a part but Spurs definitely played a better brand of basketball than the isoball that LeBron had going on. 2016 I think you could make an argument that GSW has more talent, it's certainly close but it is obvious GSW has the better flowing offense and that these Pop-style, heavy ball movement teams will usually do better than an iso-heavy team as long as the talent level is within reach.

STATUTORY

06-12-2016, 12:38 PM

not to mention Lebron is simply an inferior 1st option. At times his team is playing 4 v 5 on offense because Lebron is so damn predictable

theaussieguy

06-12-2016, 12:41 PM

basically the same reason why OKC will never win either with their WB durant lineup (other than the glaring fact that WB has a POVERTY 36.5 inch vertical).

And Durant can barely playmake either so its even more redundant.

GrapeApe

06-12-2016, 01:08 PM

Although I agree with the jist of what OP is saying, the only season it would have made much of a difference is 2011, and the Heat should have won that series anyway. In 2014 it was Wade's health, aging role players, team burn-out from 4 straight finals trips, and obviously a great Spurs performance. This season the Warriors are just flat out a better and deeper team, arguably the GOAT relative to their competition.

Playing a better brand of basketball can only do so much, especially when the opponent also plays an optimal brand of basketball.

Xiengqichess

06-12-2016, 01:16 PM

People called Kobe ballhog but he used to run the offensive plays very effectively. Either triangle , pick and roll or iso, he did very good. Kobe beat the Spurs in 08 with the least talents around I can remember! ( with the bench Vujacic, Ramanovic, Brown)

3ball

06-12-2016, 01:19 PM

In 2014 it was Wade's health, aging role players, team burn-out from 4 straight finals trips, and obviously a great Spurs performance.

The Heat played a far worse brand of basketball than the Spurs - you can't ignore this fact and simply attribute the loss to injuries, especially considering Wade and Bosh played every game in the Finals and 35+ minutes per game.

So injuries are just an excuse that people use because they don't understand why the Heat REALLY lost (their inferior brand of basketball got destroyed).

If Jordan or Bird was on that team from PRIOR YEARS (not just replacing Lebron right before the 2014 Finals), the Heat team would've played completely differently.. Wade/Bosh wouldn't clashed with Bird/Jordan like they did with Lebron - they would've THRIVED alongside their off-ball play.. It's a well-documented, statistical fact that the Heat were worse when Lebron and Wade were on the floor at the same time - this wouldn't happen with Jordan or Bird.
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FatComputerNerd

06-12-2016, 01:24 PM

We didn't lose yet.

Watch us become the first team to return from 3-1 for a finals victory. How sweet would that be to make history while breaking the curse @ the same time.

Dr Hawk

06-12-2016, 01:33 PM

We didn't lose yet.

Watch us become the first team to return from 3-1 for a finals victory. How sweet would that be to make history while breaking the curse @ the same time.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/HPvfnOuz1tOgg/200.gif

NBAGOAT

06-12-2016, 01:40 PM

We didn't lose yet.

Watch us become the first team to return from 3-1 for a finals victory. How sweet would that be to make history while breaking the curse @ the same time.

the definition of just throwing a prediction out there just so you can bump it. :oldlol:

GrapeApe

06-12-2016, 01:42 PM

The Heat played a far worse brand of basketball than the Spurs - you can't ignore this fact and simply attribute the loss to injuries, especially considering Wade and Bosh played every game in the Finals and 40 minutes per game.

So injuries are just an excuse that people use because they don't understand why the Heat REALLY lost (their inferior brand of basketball got destroyed).

If Jordan or Bird was on that team from PRIOR YEARS (not just replacing Lebron right before the 2014 Finals), the Heat team would've played completely differently.. Wade wouldn't have clashed with Bird/Jordan like he did with Lebron - he would've THRIVED alongside their off-ball play.. It's a well-documented, statistical fact that the Heat were worse when Lebron and Wade were on the floor at the same time - this wouldn't happen with Jordan or Bird.
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I'm a Heat fan so I don't care about narratives or excuses for Lebron. That 2014 Heat team had serious flaws. Battier, Allen, Birdman, Lewis, and Haslem had nothing left in the tank. Those guys were done. Cole is a terrible shooter and Chalmers is wildly inconsistent. That left the big 3, and Wade was nowhere near 100%. He was laboring up and down the court and had zero quickness or explosion. Anyone with a pair of eyes could see that, and in fact many people thought Wade's days of being a star were over after those finals.

34-24 Footwork

06-12-2016, 01:58 PM

I'm a Heat fan so I don't care about narratives or excuses for Lebron. That 2014 Heat team had serious flaws. Battier, Allen, Birdman, Lewis, and Haslem had nothing left in the tank. Those guys were done. Cole is a terrible shooter and Chalmers is wildly inconsistent. That left the big 3, and Wade was nowhere near 100%. He was laboring up and down the court and had zero quickness or explosion. Anyone with a pair of eyes could see that, and in fact many people thought Wade's days of being a star were over after those finals.

Complete bullshit to the utmost degree. Wade was fine. He just got locked down and forced to be a spectator of the Lebron James horrific ISO show. Allen, Battier, Ray Allen couldn't get open because Western Conference Teams are mentally retarded and don't double team athletic clowns with no reliable jumpers (see Wade, James).

However they do double team players that maybe aren't that athletic, but very cerebral in their approach to the game and able to get their jumper off at any time (see Kobe in 08 and 2000-2003)
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Bolded: Ironically, only the people who don't know basketball thought Wade was done BASED ON THE 2014 FINALS. Based on your posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you were leading the charge in that narrative.

3ball

06-12-2016, 01:59 PM

Wade was nowhere near 100%.

Wade played better in the 2014 playoffs (18 ppg on 50.0%) than he did during the 2013 championship run (16 ppg on 46%), so this proves your "injury/tired" excuse wrong.

Wade and Bosh played every game and over 36 MPG in 2014 playoffs and Finals - so the excuse that the Heat were tired/injured is pure bullshit and nonfactual.. The only true fact is that the Heat played a far worse brand of basketball than the Spurs.

Battier, Allen, Birdman, Lewis, and Haslem had nothing left in the tank. Those guys were done. Cole is a terrible shooter and Chalmers is wildly inconsistent.

Those are 2nd grade-level excuses for your team... Pure bs.

Allen averaged 10 ppg on 41% three-pointers in 2014 Finals.. Rashard Lewis contributed 9 ppg on 50%, which was far more than his RS averages.

That 2014 Heat team had serious flaws.

They were 2-time defending champs, so they didn't have "serious flaws", except that their brand of basketball was surpassed by the Spurs like a rabbit sprinting by a tortoise.
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Straight_Ballin

06-12-2016, 02:01 PM

We didn't lose yet.

Watch us become the first team to return from 3-1 for a finals victory. How sweet would that be to make history while breaking the curse @ the same time.

Did Jim Brown join the Cavs? Is Stipe now on the team? Those are the only 2 guys that will ever bring a chip to Cleveland. That city is cursed as fvck.

GrapeApe

06-12-2016, 02:15 PM

Complete bullshit to the utmost degree. Wade was fine. He just got locked down and forced to be a spectator of the Lebron James horrific ISO show. Allen, Battier, Ray Allen couldn't get open because Western Conference Teams are mentally retarded and don't double team athletic clowns with no reliable jumpers (see Wade, James).

However they do double team players that maybe aren't that athletic, but very cerebral in their approach to the game and able to get their jumper off at any time (see Kobe in 08 and 2000-2003)
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Bolded: Ironically, only the people who don't know basketball thought Wade was done BASED ON THE 2014 FINALS. Based on your posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you were leading the charge in that narrative.

You're an idiot. I'm a Heat fan, not a Lebron stan. Wade looked done in those finals. A lot of commentators, analysts, etc..... were saying the same thing. Look at him in this year's playoffs compared to then and tell me he looks like the same player. It had nothing to do with Lebron. Wade was too heavy which in turn exacerbated his knee problems. He had no explosion, no lift, and no lateral range defensively. It was as clear as day.

The lengths that some people go to trash Lebron are unreal. I couldn't care less about Lebron individually. As soon as he left the Heat he was the enemy, no different than any other non-Heat player.

NBAGOAT

06-12-2016, 02:18 PM

You're an idiot. I'm a Heat fan, not a Lebron stan. Wade looked done in those finals. A lot of commentators, analysts, etc..... were saying the same thing. Look at him in this year's playoffs compared to then and tell me he looks like the same player. It had nothing to do with Lebron. Wade was too heavy which in turn exacerbated his knee problems. He had no explosion, no lift, and no lateral range defensively. It was as clear as day.

The lengths that some people go to trash Lebron are unreal. I couldn't care less about Lebron individually. As soon as he left the Heat he was the enemy, no different than any other non-Heat player.

I mean red flags should've been raised when he called Wade an athletic clown. I get these criticisms about Lebron being "just an athlete" to an extent but Wade's never gotten that criticism. He doesn't have the best midrange shot but he's one of the more skilled finishers around the rim with his floaters etc and extremely skilled in the post.

GrapeApe

06-12-2016, 02:27 PM

Wade played better in the 2014 playoffs (18 ppg on 50.0%) than he did during the 2013 championship run (16 ppg on 46%), so this proves your "injury/tired" excuse wrong.

Wade and Bosh played every game and over 36 MPG in 2014 playoffs and Finals - so the excuse that the Heat were tired/injured is pure bullshit and nonfactual.. The only true fact is that the Heat played a far worse brand of basketball than the Spurs.

Those are 2nd grade-level excuses for your team... Pure bs.

Allen averaged 10 ppg on 41% three-pointers in 2014 Finals.. Rashard Lewis contributed 9 ppg on 50%, which was far more than his RS averages.

They were 2-time defending champs, so they didn't have "serious flaws", except that their brand of basketball was surpassed by the Spurs like a rabbit sprinting by a tortoise.
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Just stop it. Everything you say about the Heat is agenda driven, contextually insufficient, or flat out wrong. I've been a Heat fan for 25 years. I don't need you telling me about my team. The 2014 Heat were a mess all season. The fact that they won a title the year before is irrelevant. Every single Heat fan was well aware of the team's issues.

kamil

06-12-2016, 02:36 PM

not to mention Lebron is simply an inferior 1st option. At times his team is playing 4 v 5 on offense because Lebron is so damn predictable

Why aren't you counting refs?

3ball

06-12-2016, 02:47 PM

Just stop it. Everything you say about the Heat is agenda driven, contextually insufficient, or flat out wrong. I've been a Heat fan for 25 years. I don't need you telling me about my team.

Everything YOU say about the Heat's 2014 Finals loss is "agenda-driven, contextually insufficient, or flat out wrong" specifically because you ignore the most important and obvious factor driving the Spurs victory: they had a far superior brand of basketball.

And we know why.. Point guards have low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw them assists) and high time of possession - so since Lebron's presence adds a SECOND point guard to the floor, the remaining teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams who only have 1 point guard..

When teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball, that promotes an inferior brand of basketball and a more predictable team.. Lebron's point guard play from the forward position is a redundancy and inherent flaw in his game that explains why 3 of Lebron's Finals losses were due to inferior brand of basketball, not talent.. And it also explains why many other players have done better than 2/7, even though they didn't collude and play with a Big 3.
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34-24 Footwork

06-12-2016, 02:53 PM

I mean red flags should've been raised when he called Wade an athletic clown. I get these criticisms about Lebron being "just an athlete" to an extent but Wade's never gotten that criticism. He doesn't have the best midrange shot but he's one of the more skilled finishers around the rim with his floaters etc and extremely skilled in the post.

Wade is the 3rd GREATEST SG OF ALL TIME. But he IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE SPURS TO DOUBLE TEAM HIM.

This makes it hard for the shooters around him/Lebron to get open.

What's not true about this?

34-24 Footwork

06-12-2016, 02:57 PM

Just stop it. Everything you say about the Heat is agenda driven, contextually insufficient, or flat out wrong. I've been a Heat fan for 25 years. I don't need you telling me about my team. The 2014 Heat were a mess all season. The fact that they won a title the year before is irrelevant. Every single Heat fan was well aware of the team's issues.

Lmao. You're the type of fan that was leaving the arena in game 6. Pure disgrace. The defending champs lost. It's that simple....and they were honestly supposed to lose the year prior. But whatever.

Wade is a great basketball, but excessive c0ck-riding of bron makes your posts unbearable.

Wade is the 3rd best SG I've ever seen play. Lebron is a top 10 player of all time.

Neither one of them need your feeble 3rd grade excuses made for them. It's pathetic.

NBAGOAT

06-12-2016, 02:58 PM

Wade is the 3rd GREATEST SG OF ALL TIME. But he IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE SPURS TO DOUBLE TEAM HIM.

This makes it hard for the shooters around him/Lebron to get open.

What's not true about this?

any year before 12, he was absolutely good enough to get doubled. He was really effective in the post. He wasn't good enough for the Spurs to double because he was past his prime and had huge injury issues as GrapeApe said. Constantly had knee problems and just didn't have much explosion.

3ball

06-12-2016, 03:18 PM

any year before 12, he was absolutely good enough to get doubled. He was really effective in the post. He wasn't good enough for the Spurs to double because he was past his prime and had huge injury issues as GrapeApe said. Constantly had knee problems and just didn't have much explosion.

Wade played every game in the 2014 playoffs (36 MPG), and he played better in those playoffs (18 ppg on 50.0%) than the 2013 championship run (16 ppg on 46%).. So the notion that Wade was hurt is overblown.

Otoh, the BIGGEST factor driving the Spurs victory was their vastly superior brand of basketball, which was evidenced with every minute they played.

And we know why Lebron's team had a worse brand of basketball.. Point guards have low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw them assists) and high time of possession - so since Lebron's presence adds a SECOND point guard to the floor, the remaining teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams who only have 1 point guard..

When teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball, that promotes an inferior brand of basketball and a more predictable team.. Lebron's point guard play from the forward position is a redundancy and inherent flaw in his game that explains why 3 of Lebron's Finals losses were due to inferior brand of basketball, not talent.. And it also explains why many other players have done better than 2/7, even though they didn't collude and play with a Big 3.

GrapeApe

06-12-2016, 03:21 PM

Lmao. You're the type of fan that was leaving the arena in game 6. Pure disgrace. The defending champs lost. It's that simple....and they were honestly supposed to lose the year prior. But whatever.

Wade is a great basketball, but excessive c0ck-riding of bron makes your posts unbearable.

Wade is the 3rd best SG I've ever seen play. Lebron is a top 10 player of all time.

Neither one of them need your feeble 3rd grade excuses made for them. It's pathetic.

For the millionth time, I AM NOT A LEBRON STAN. I'm a Heat fan and Wade and Zo are my two favorite players ever. Stop making assumptions about me and how I am as a fan. You don't know me. I've never left a sporting event early in my life. This place is so out of control ridiculous that if you don't trash Lebron you're a ***-rider. It's unbeleivable. I've acknowledged many times that the Spurs were the better team and flat out kicked our ass. It's not making excuses to point out that a team has flaws.

3ball is the one saying the Heat were only a few stylistic tweeks from winning in 2014, which is far more absurd than anything I've said. Some of you people seriously need help.

3ball

06-12-2016, 06:09 PM

3ball is the one saying the Heat were only a few stylistic tweeks from winning in 2014, which is far more absurd than anything I've said.

The thread title re-states the common knowledge that the Spurs victory was due to their "superior brand of basketball", which is a lot more than just a "few stylistic tweaks".

And we know WHY Lebron's team had the worse brand of basketball.. Point guards have low assisted rates (teammates rarely throw them assists) and high time of possession - so since Lebron's presence adds a SECOND point guard to the floor, the remaining teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams who only have 1 point guard..

When teammates have less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball, that promotes an inferior brand of basketball and a more predictable team.. Lebron's point guard play from the forward position is a redundancy and inherent flaw in his game that explains why 3 of Lebron's Finals losses were due to inferior brand of basketball, not talent.. And it also explains why many other players have done better than 2/7, even though they didn't collude and play with a Big 3.