Why can't Lebron "take over"?

[3ball]

.
It's completely legitimate, since Jordan had 9 fifty-point games in playoffs, and 38 forty-point games (1 every 3.8 games).

Otoh, Lebrick has 0 fifty-point games, and only 13 forty-point games (1 every 15.1 games).

I guess Lebron fans have to wait another 15, 20, 30+ games before Lebron takes over again... :facepalm

[Dray n Klay]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good but not consistently great scorer. He doesn't have a reliable tool box with a diverse scoring skill set via footwork, jumper, post game ... And a totally non cerebral approach to the game from a scoring perspective.

More blunt force trauma. A power forward pg. Thus why he struggles with great on ball defenders like Iggy, Leonard, Butler, Marion and old Jason Kidd.

He can't just take over on that end such as contemporaries like Kobe, KD, Melo, Wade, Curry, Harden. Let alone like the GOAT.

It takes a perfect type of setting for him to be a volume scorer. He's content with these 23 - 10 - 8 type games that suggest in the box score all around dominance, even though the eye test and context suggest otherwise.

[KiiiiNG]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:
Damn

[Foster5k]

2009 Lebron could probably "take over" a game. However, past 2009, those days are over. LeBron's offensive skill set is limited. In 2009, his superb athletic ability could compensate and allow him to seemingly take over a game. Those days are gone. LeBron is in the declining phase of his career.

We all knew LeBron's game wouldn't age well.

[Lebronxrings]

how many times did magic take over? Lebron is an all around player not a ball hog and glory whore.

[3ball]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


Jordan never missed the playoffs despite not having any all-stars, while Lebron missed the playoffs twice, despite having an all-star Center.

The instant Jordan got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6, whereas Lebron has played with 6 different all-stars in his career, and is only 2/7.





How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


Jordan scores nearly 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - these things are more valuable, require more energy and control the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.





How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


Lebron has many series and even entire playoff runs where he isn't the team's leading scorer, whereas MJ is the only all-time great to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did it by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) (let that sink in).

MJ also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.

Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.





How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


In 2009, Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls cast, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

[Hey Yo]

He took over in late 1995 only to get reamned by Orlando in the playoffs.

#shortcutringdenied

[SamuraiSWISH]

2009 Lebron could probably "take over" a game. However, past 2009, those days are over. LeBron's offensive skill set is limited. In 2009, his superb athletic ability could compensate and allow him to seemingly take over a game. Those days are gone. LeBron is in the declining phase of his career.

We all knew LeBron's game wouldn't age well.
This. Along with a natural second guessing tentativeness and approach ... Passive aggressive. He's never been the type apart from one game I can think of where he just meanly asserted his will aggresively on another team when it truly mattered. Game 6 vs Boston. The lone outlier to his standard behaviors.

[Hey Yo]

In 2009, Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls cast, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.
It didn't matter who the Bulls added when you have MJ quitting in the biggest postseason game of his career that year

[3ball]

It didn't matter who the Bulls added when you have MJ quitting in the biggest postseason game of his career that year



Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88):


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER (shown explicitly in previous paragraph), Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:


When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team





It didn't matter who the Bulls added when you have MJ quitting in the biggest postseason game of his career that year


Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)

[Straight_Ballin]

how many times did magic take over? Lebron is an all around player not a ball hog and glory whore.

It's worked out so well for him... 2/7 and all....

3ball's life as a fan watching MJ dominate was a greater experience than any lebron stan's experience watching Lebron, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it except whine and meltdown about how much lebron sucks by comparison.

[Hey Yo]

The alleged goat only takes 8 shots in the biggest game of his postseason career?

No excuses.....dude quit

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

[JohnMax]

why do people refuse to admit that Lebron James is a flawed athlete? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345039)

I'm not even talking about his mentality or lack of competitive spirit. I'm talking pure and simple mechanically he's a flawed athlete, especially for basketball. Lebron James is probably one of the fastest player in the league when he's at full stride in top speed, but his acceleration or first step is pedestrian at best. This kid needed a pick and roll as soon as he got into the league because he never had the blow by first step of a guy like Kobe. Kobe in his 13th season in the league relied less on pick and rolls than Lebron in his first.

Lebron also has a blocky and bulky bodytype similiar to Dwight Howard. Both lack the natural fluidity and coordination of someone like Kobe or MJ. If you watch this kid's footwork when he's in iso, it's literally like he's shuffling them and trying to remember which step to take like he's in Salsa Dancing for beginners. This is why every jumper he takes he seems to be off balance and he's never been able to have a effective pull up game.

I just never have been impressed by his athleticism. He's also a terrible two foot leaper that's why he never wanted to participate in the dunk contest

guy is a bull ruining what was an aesthete game

[SamuraiSWISH]

The alleged goat only takes 8 shots in the biggest game of his postseason career?

No excuses.....dude quit

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html
Was asked to play decoy as a scorer that game.

[3ball]

Lebron is an all around player not a ball hog and glory whore.


Jordan was an all-round player too, but he scored far more IN ADDITION to his all-round play..

He scored nearly 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg), which is more valuable, requires more energy, and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.1 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more ppg with better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.





Lebron wasn't a ball hog and glory whore.


Jordan scored nearly 6 ppg more in the playoffs WITH BETTER EFFICIENCY ACROSS THE BOARD (ts, fg, ortg), so the ballhog narrative doesn't fly.





Lebron wasn't a ballhog


Actually, the biggest problem with Lebron's game (other than his broke jumpshot) is that he holds the ball too long - he needs an excessive time of possession to get his stats.. Specifically, he and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) for time of possession.. In the 2015 Finals, Lebron scored 35.8 ppg on 33 shots by holding the ball for an insane 12.0 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) time of possession, which was 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1).

Ultimately, Lebron is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball than MJ's quick-decision, more off-ball repertoire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXErOmq3owg&t=0m52s).. Specifically, Lebron lowers his teammates' APG (playmaking), and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing). Here's the APG and assisted rate of key teammates, with and without Lebron:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1






Lebron isn't a ballhog


He should be - he has many series and even entire playoff runs where he isn't the team's leading scorer.. Otoh, MJ is the only all-time great to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did it by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) (let that sink in)..

MJ also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.

Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.
.

[Hey Yo]

Was asked to play decoy as a scorer that game.
:oldlol:

riiiiiiiight...:rolleyes:

How come 3ball never mentioned that? He said it was the double teams. So which was it, MJ stans?

[3ball]

riiiiiiiight...:rolleyes:

How come 3ball never mentioned that? He said it was the double teams. So which was it, MJ stans?


Do you want to start comparing worst playoff games?.. Lebron has 7 and 8 point games, even in the Finals where Jordan never scored less than 22 points.. Jordan's playoff low is 15 points and he scored less than 20 points in only 6 of 179 playoff games.

How about playoff series?.. Lebron averaged 17 ppg in the Finals, and also 22 ppg on 36%... That's far worse than Jordan's worst playoff series, which was 27 ppg on 42% in Finals and 32 ppg on 40%.

So whether you compare their worst games or series, Lebron's are FAR worse than Jordan's.
.

[Hey Yo]

It's not about points....it's about FGA.

He avg. 22.2FGA per game in the reg. season, but taking only 8 shots in the pivital game 5 is inexcusable....

Maybe he put money down on Detroit?? That's the most logical answer so far

[3ball]

It's not about points....it's about FGA.

He avg. 22.2FGA per game in the reg. season, but taking only 8 shots in the pivital game 5 is inexcusable....

Maybe he put money down on Detroit?? That's the most logical answer so far
Jordan had 18 points and 9 assists in that game (10-11 FT's)

Do you want to start comparing worst playoff games?.. Lebron has 7 and 8 point games, even in the Finals where Jordan never scored less than 22 points.. Jordan's playoff low is 15 points and he scored less than 20 points in only 6 of 179 playoff games.

How about playoff series?.. Lebron averaged 17 ppg in the Finals, and also 22 ppg on 36%... That's far worse than Jordan's worst playoff series, which was 27 ppg on 42% in Finals and 32 ppg on 40%.

So whether you compare their worst games or series, Lebron's are FAR worse than Jordan's.. And again - Jordan "TOOK OVER" all the time - he had a 40 point game in 1 out of every 3.8 games, compared to 1 out of 15.1 for Lebron.

[livinglegend]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:

Great question.
OP still has to answer it.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, just admit MJ was known to suffer from performance anxiety and thus he had those 8 FGA games


There's a reason the dude is 1-9 :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

3ball, just admit MJ was known to suffer from performance anxiety and thus he had those 8 FGA games


Lebron has plenty of games where he barely shot or scored, whereas Jordan had 18 points and 9 assists in that game (10-11 FT's).

By comparison, Lebron has 7 and 8 point games.. Lebron's worst games and playoff series are FAR worse than Jordan's.
.

[livinglegend]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


wow such a great question.
Why can't OP answer it?

[Dray n Klay]

wow such a great question.
Why can't OP answer it?

:cheers:

WE GOT 3ball SHOOK

[3ball]

Great question.


Here's your answer:

Jordan never missed the playoffs despite not having any all-stars, while Lebron missed the playoffs twice, despite having an all-star Center.

The instant Jordan got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6, whereas Lebron has played with 6 different all-stars in his career, and is only 2/7.





OP still has to answer it.


I answered it above - Jordan did more with less.. But here's a bonus answer:

In 2009, Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls cast, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

[3ball]

:cheers:

WE GOT 3ball SHOOK


Not at all - players in Jordan's era weren't spoiled with spacing, whereas today's era is offense-friendly due to wide open spacing.. Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their respective teams attempt 30 threes per game), while MJ achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (the Bulls took 5 threes per game in 1991).. Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode with today's spacing and hands-off (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438473&postcount=10) defense.

Consider that Lebron's 3-point percentage is 31.9% in playoffs, and his midrange percentage is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17).. Westbrook, Wade, Derozan, & Butler have similarly (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) poor jumpshot efficiency, yet they remain top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier rim access.. MJ would get the same rim access, except his midrange efficiency was better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which would give him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. Jordan's goat midrange would be especially effective considering that today's spacing forces defenses to give up midrange.

[Dray n Klay]

Zone defense offsets spacing :confusedshrug:


Jordan never had to deal with this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ccrms83UYAA3xPY.jpg

[livinglegend]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:

I'm still waiting for OP to answer this great question.

[livinglegend]

:cheers:

WE GOT 3ball SHOOK
:djparty

[3ball]

Zone defense offsets spacing :confusedshrug:



Not in the paint - today's defender cannot remain under the rim while their man is 8 feet away on the block, since that's out of "armslength":



A defensive player is not allowed inside the key area for more than three seconds unless he is guarding the player with the ball or is actively guarding any opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within an arms length of an opponent. If an offensive player moves through the key, the defender must be within an arms length, and also move along with the offensive player. He can not just stand there and put his arms out to get a new three second count.

http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html



But in previous eras, defenders were allowed to stand under the rim while their man was on the block because defenders could paint-camp "with no time limitation" when their man was within 3 feet of the lane on either side:



2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.



See the difference here, where Pau is reaching out his arm to stay within "armslength" of Duncan on the block, so he can't contest Kawhi at the rim:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/-GwNKZ.gif



Here's another example - Maurice Speights must follow Tristan Thompson to the block to stay within "armslength", which prevents him from contesting Lebron at the rim - you can see how wide the paint is on this angle (16 feet wide).


https://media.giphy.com/media/qoijGMUGGV4dO/giphy.gif



But in previous eras, defenders didn't have to be within "armslength" - they could camp under the rim while their man was on the block (and up to 3 feet outside the lane), so Kawhi would NOT have gotten a wide open dunk:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/Rc9D-4.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-01-2015/mPufIB.gif






Zone defense offsets spacing :confusedshrug:



Regarding OUTSIDE the paint, Rule 2e of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to sag off into the paint for 2.9 seconds when guarding someone standing behind the 3-point line, just like today's defenders:



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds.

http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html



The real coup was when an offensive player was BELOW the tip of the circle but above the FT line, since his defender could paint camp for as long as they wanted in the "middle defensive area" (upper part of the paint):



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds


Otoh, when today's offensive player is between the FT line and tip of circle, the defender can only dip into the paint for 2.9 seconds, per the defensive 3 second rule - they can't stay in the "middle defensive area" (upper part of the paint) as long as they want like previous era defenders.
.

[3ball]

Zone defense offsets spacing


True - the concept of zone offsetting spacing is why league-wide ORtg was remained stable for the better part of 30 years.

But the concept doesn't apply in the paint, where zone is banned.. Inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" and move "along with the offensive player" to remain in the paint (as shown in previous post above).

"Armslength" is the opposite of a zone and strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder... :oldlol:

Today's "armslength" provision keeps the paint clear, which has made lane penetration easier, along with the hand-check ban - lane penetration is now an automatic, built-in component of the game.

[KiiiiNG]

Hey bro I'm all for your long-winded copy pastes, but can you quickly just explain why MJ went 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs? Always wondered why he couldn't take over and win more before Pippen/Phil

[Dray n Klay]

Hey bro I'm all for your long-winded copy pastes, but can you quickly just explain why MJ went 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs? Always wondered why he couldn't take over and win more before Pippen/Phil


Got 'em :lol

[Hey Yo]

If teams were able to play zone defenses, I never would have had the career I did.

Michael Jordan, 2001

[tamaraw08]

.
It's completely legitimate, since Jordan had 9 fifty-point games in playoffs, and 38 forty-point games (1 every 3.8 games).

Otoh, Lebrick has 0 fifty-point games, and only 13 forty-point games (1 every 15.1 games).

I guess Lebron fans have to wait another 15, 20, 30+ games before Lebron takes over again... :facepalm

Because of the holes in his game.
1. When was the last time he did a jump hook when he is withing 5 feet like Rose or Wade?
2. Can't remember the last time he made a runner/leaner or a tear drop ala George Iceman Gervin.
3. Does not have a reliable 10-15 foot pull up like MJ or Grant Hill.
4. He seems he can't trust his running hook. He only did it once in game 3.
5. No drop step or reverse pivot.

[diamenz]

Great question.
OP still has to answer it.


:cheers:

WE GOT 3ball SHOOK


:djparty


Hey bro I'm all for your long-winded copy pastes, but can you quickly just explain why MJ went 1-9 without Pippen in the playoffs? Always wondered why he couldn't take over and win more before Pippen/Phil


Got 'em :lol

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/605/413/732.gif

[Straight_Ballin]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:

:roll: Keep melting down kid!


Time to put this 1-9 thing to bed:

1984-85 Bulls (38-44) faced (59-23) Bucks and lost (1-3). Win differential (21 games). Bucks of the mid 80's were a very good team.

1985-86 Bulls (30-52) faced (67-15) Celtics and lost (0-3). Win differential (37 games). This Celtics team is widely regarded as the GOAT team ever.

1986-87 Bulls (40-42) faced (59-23) Celtics and lost (0-3). Win differential (29 games). This Celtics team made the finals.



MJ's numbers during these 10 playoff games:

35.5 PPG, 27.4 PER 6.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, 2.4 SPG, 1.5 BPG


How can anyone in their right mind expect a rookie, 2nd and 3rd year MJ with utterly no help to beat an elite team (Bucks) and a GOAT level team (Celtics)? And yes, I can openly admit that early years MJ didn't exactly play championship level ball (taking what the D gives you and getting others involved). But even if he had played perfect, team ball, it still wouldn't have mattered because of the HUGE gap in talent between his team and the teams he faced were way too large.

[knicksman]

How much did Jordans "take-over" abilities stop him from going 1-9? :confusedshrug:


Honestly youre cringe as fcuk man. How old are you?

[TheOne]

It's a mental issue. Bron thinks too much on the court instead of just playing out of pure basketball instinct.

[3ball]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ccrms83UYAA3xPY.jpg


Jordan never had to deal with this (zone and flooding)



Your picture of Gasol flooding (above) shows a SPACED-OUT COURT, which results in only 2 defenders on the strongside.. But the court wasn't spaced in Jordan's era, so he faced overcrowded strongsides that were already "flooded" with all 5 defenders - there were already multiple defenders standing where Gasol flooded to:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders are already in closer proximity and the rotations aren't necessary.

Increased spacing over the years has been met with increased defensive movement, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Other than a brief downswing from 1999 to 2004, ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, including a high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).






Zone defense offsets spacing :confusedshrug:


True - the concept of zone offsetting spacing is why league-wide ORtg was remained stable for the better part of 30 years, as explained in the response above.

But the concept doesn't apply in the paint, where zone is banned.. Inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" and move "along with the offensive player" to remain in the paint (as shown in the post at the top of this page).

"Armslength" is the opposite of a zone and strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder... :oldlol:

Today's "armslength" provision keeps the paint clear, which has made lane penetration easier, along with the hand-check ban - lane penetration is now an automatic, built-in component of the game.





Jordan never faced zones or flooding


As previously explained, MJ was accustomed to navigating un-spaced courts where all 10 players were bunched up on the strongside (5-defender strongsides), so he would be a wiz at destroying today's spaced courts where defenders are spread over the entire court (1 or 2 defender strongsides).

Furthermore, floods can be avoided altogether by pulling up for a midrange jumper (which Jordan was GOAT at), or exploited by playing off-ball (ditto).

Otoh, Lebron's midrange percentage less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) and his off-ball game is poor, so he can't take advantage of floods like Jordan.
.

[greatest-ever]

Well first we need to recognize that Lebron isn't quite the same player he was from 09-14, and has lost his jumper. Next, he's up against an historically great team and was never really a great finals performer to begin with. He sucked in the 2007 & 2011 finals, in 2013 he wasn't anything special in half of that series, in 2014 he put up great stats but i feel they overstated his actual impact.

[ArbitraryWater]

Good but not consistently great scorer. He doesn't have a reliable tool box with a diverse scoring skill set via footwork, jumper, post game ... And a totally non cerebral approach to the game from a scoring perspective.

More blunt force trauma. A power forward pg. Thus why he struggles with great on ball defenders like Iggy, Leonard, Butler, Marion and old Jason Kidd.

He can't just take over on that end such as contemporaries like Kobe, KD, Melo, Wade, Curry, Harden. Let alone like the GOAT.

It takes a perfect type of setting for him to be a volume scorer. He's content with these 23 - 10 - 8 type games that suggest in the box score all around dominance, even though the eye test and context suggest otherwise.


http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/chang_spits_milk.gif

[aj1987]

Good catch, AW.


Good but not consistently great scorer. He doesn't have a reliable tool box with a diverse scoring skill set via footwork, jumper, post game ... And a totally non cerebral approach to the game from a scoring perspective.

More blunt force trauma. A power forward pg. Thus why he struggles with great on ball defenders like Iggy, Leonard, Butler, Marion and old Jason Kidd.

He can't just take over on that end such as contemporaries like Kobe, KD, Melo, Wade, Curry, Harden. Let alone like the GOAT.

It takes a perfect type of setting for him to be a volume scorer. He's content with these 23 - 10 - 8 type games that suggest in the box score all around dominance, even though the eye test and context suggest otherwise.

:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Good but not consistently great scorer. He doesn't have a reliable tool box with a diverse scoring skill set via footwork, jumper, post game ... And a totally non cerebral approach to the game from a scoring perspective.

More blunt force trauma. A power forward pg. Thus why he struggles with great on ball defenders like Iggy, Leonard, Butler, Marion and old Jason Kidd.

He can't just take over on that end such as contemporaries like Kobe, KD, Melo, Wade, Curry, Harden. Let alone like the GOAT.

It takes a perfect type of setting for him to be a volume scorer. He's content with these 23 - 10 - 8 type games that suggest in the box score all around dominance, even though the eye test and context suggest otherwise.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gifhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gifhttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s72-c/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[Dray n Klay]

LOL did SamuraiSwish say Harden, Curry, Melo had better takeover abilities than LeBron?? :roll: :roll:

[KirbyPls]

LOL did SamuraiSwish say Harden, Curry, Melo had better takeover abilities than LeBron?? :roll: :roll:

To be fair to Swish, the early games of the 2016 Finals were a triumphant and delusional time for Lebron haters (85% of the posters on ISH), which he is not. He was probably frustrated when it appeared that the Illuminati had demanded Lebron throw another Finals (see 2011) and temporarily lost his mind. It happens to the best of us.

For instance, I didn't even post on ISH from June 2015 until June 19, 2016. :cheers:

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:

[warriorfan]

To be fair to Swish, the early games of the 2016 Finals were a triumphant and delusional time for Lebron haters (85% of the posters on ISH), which he is not. He was probably frustrated when it appeared that the Illuminati had demanded Lebron throw another Finals (see 2011) and temporarily lost his mind. It happens to the best of us.

For instance, I didn't even post on ISH from June 2015 until June 19, 2016. :cheers:

Yeah, the early games when Golden State's 3 best defensive players were out of comission due to suspension or injury. Coincidentally the first time LeBron was able to score efficiently vs the Warriors in the last two years was as soon as Draymond Green got suspended, and Andre Iguodala and Andrew Bogut were injured.

[Mr Feeny]

LOL did SamuraiSwish say Harden, Curry, Melo had better takeover abilities than LeBron?? :roll: :roll:

:roll: :roll:

[bizil]

Is Lebron a legit alpha dog? HELL YA! But the guys like MJ, Kobe, and Bird had the ULTIMATE BLEND OF:

- Great scoring skillset
- ULTIMATE KILLER INSTINCT
- EPIC all around ability

So while Lebron can dominate a game scoring AND in the all around sense at an all time level, the scoring skillset and killer instinct aspects aren't on the level of a Bird, MJ, or Kobe. ONCE AGAIN, I'm not saying Bron doesn't have those killer moments and aspects. But Bron will be known as the best all around player of all time. And that's epic shit!! MJ, Kobe, and Bird were the ultimate blend of being assassins and great all around players in one. But make no mistake, Bron is a legit alpha dog who gets 27-30 points a night from a pass first perspective. Only he and Big O dominated scoring in that fashion.

[Dray n Klay]

:roll: :roll:
:roll:


I swear to God SamuraiSwish tries to get away saying the most idiotic arguments using complex terminology, and expects people to take his word for it since he was an AAU coach :lol


What's next? "Kobe was a great Finals performer, take my word for it" :lol

[Keno]

Good but not consistently great scorer. He doesn't have a reliable tool box with a diverse scoring skill set via footwork, jumper, post game ... And a totally non cerebral approach to the game from a scoring perspective.

More blunt force trauma. A power forward pg. Thus why he struggles with great on ball defenders like Iggy, Leonard, Butler, Marion and old Jason Kidd.

He can't just take over on that end such as contemporaries like Kobe, KD, Melo, Wade, Curry, Harden. Let alone like the GOAT.

It takes a perfect type of setting for him to be a volume scorer. He's content with these 23 - 10 - 8 type games that suggest in the box score all around dominance, even though the eye test and context suggest otherwise.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm dumb as ****.

[tpols]

lack of midrange
lack of finesse post game
natural risk adverse personality

[RRR3]

A guy who scored 16 points in 2 minutes "can't take over" :roll:

[CTbasketball92]

LeBron can clearly takeover, just not at the same level of an MJ. I think that showed a bit during the 2014 finals. Not that MJ wouldve won, but LeBron just averaged a very contained 27 ppg a game, and he needed to take more shots and force the action, imo. MJ would've avveraged 40 ppg and kept pressure on San Antonio the whole game imo. It also showed during the 2013 finals when LeBron failed to score 20 points for 3 str8 games. Huge stage, and everyone knew he was their best scorer. But what people don't understand is that LeBron is a very streaky shooter and isn't incredibly crafty, so offense, as weird as it sounds, doesn't always come easy for him. Still top 2 ever, though :rockon:

[sekachu]

.
It's completely legitimate, since Jordan had 9 fifty-point games in playoffs, and 38 forty-point games (1 every 3.8 games).

Otoh, Lebrick has 0 fifty-point games, and only 13 forty-point games (1 every 15.1 games).

I guess Lebron fans have to wait another 15, 20, 30+ games before Lebron takes over again... :facepalm




Lebron able to take over early in the game but he can't take over when the game is in the line because his timidity always hold him back as you can tell. So he needs wade and kyrie to get this done for him.

[Da_Realist]

Lebron able to take over early in the game but he can't take over when the game is in the line because his timidity always hold him back as you can tell. So he needs wade and kyrie to get this done for him.

The end of close games is when you need the most skill. Teams are usually locked in and won't give up many cheap points.

[grantz]

I hate lebron but by definition, he did "take over" the last 4 games in the Finals. He doesn't have his best scoring moments the last 5 minutes of the game maybe but his performance in the Finals, I would consider an all-time great. He put his team in a position to win every game though his scoring may not be the one that does the closing.