First Retirement

[HighFlyer23]

Was MJ already the GOAT by his first retirement in 1993?

[fourkicks44]

Was MJ already the GOAT by his first retirement in 1993?

I say yes now, but back then I didn't think so.

[Gileraracer]

I don't think so. His 3peat was great and his stats where ridiculous, but the second 3peat cemented him as the GOAT.

[Smoke117]

You can't put him above Kareem without the 2nd three-peat.

[Quickening]

Yes, you lose 3 fmvps but his career stats would have been better, and he already proved he could win as the man.

[LilEddyCurry]

There would be no consensus GOAT if he did retire after his first three-peat. It would be between MJ and Kareem.

[aj1987]

Nope. KAJ would be above him. He'd be in the same tier as Magic, Bird, etc. (considering that the list was made in '94).

[Micku]

You guys haven't checked out what ppl were saying back in 1993, huh?

They were already calling him GOAT before he won his 3rd ring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pColWX0Cadw

There was a video on youtube that was in 1993, and they were comparing MJ to the other greats like Kareem, Wilt, Bird and Magic. They were saying that they had more allstars on their teams, and MJ carried the Bulls straight to the finals and won. They called him the best offensive and defensive player too. I can't find it tho, but if I do I'll post it here.

But yeah. By 1993, ppl thought that MJ was arguably the best ever. With the second peat, it was pretty much done.

edit: Imo, there is definitely a case of him by 1993. But the 2nd peat done it.

[julizaver]

Was MJ already the GOAT by his first retirement in 1993?

Yes, he was considered the GOAT arounf that time - and prior to his retiring anouncement. That's what most of people at the time thinks about it. He was seen as the basketball god, the perfect player.
The second 3pt just cemented his reputation, although he was not the quite the same player. If I am to be honest his almost two years of absence have mostly negative effect upon his body, rather than if he was playing. He got up some extra pounds, lost a step and his vertical was not there. I saw almost all of his games in 1995 and he was clearly out of shape.
In the offseason he works hard and was more like himself in the historical '96 season. He got some of his explosivness and vertical back.

[Dragonyeuw]

There was a lot of talk about it, but it was really the second 3-peat where it became near-consensus.

[fourkicks44]

There was a lot of talk about it, but it was really the second 3-peat where it became near-consensus.

There was alot of talk about it.

Back then a 12 year old Fourkicks44 used to debate his friends and a lot of grown ups who all thought MJ was the GOAT.

I use to say Magic was the GOAT cause he had more championships and he could play every position.

Time tells that I was wrong.

[Rolando]

That's part of why he retired. He felt he had nothing left to prove.

[Rake2204]

I think it would have been absolutely fair to question whether he was the greatest of all-time by his first retirement, but not many did. Call it conjecture or truth, but when Jordan stepped away in '93, the majority seemed to treat it as the retirement of the greatest, particularly considering he was coming off of his third consecutive championship, seventh straight scoring title, etc.

[Klay 3D]

Almost, but he was top 5 all-time already before he was 30.

[DCL]

he was widely accepted as the GOAT by the hype machine after his first 3-peat, but he came back probably because magic was still talking shit to him that he only got 3.

if magic johnson had 6 rings, MJ would had aimed for 7.

[Hey Yo]

That's part of why he retired. He felt he had nothing left to prove.
:oldlol:

That's what MJ would like everyone to believe but sorry.... that's a pretty lame excuse.

If it were true, why comeback and play in the NBA again? It's not like he pulled a Russell and was on a team who dominated the league for almost 13 straight years and got tired of winning.

[Jasper]

top 3 , but I wish I had $1000 for every time I wondered what if he didn't play baseball.. :rant

[ClipperRevival]

:oldlol:

That's what MJ would like everyone to believe but sorry.... that's a pretty lame excuse.

If it were true, why comeback and play in the NBA again? It's not like he pulled a Russell and was on a team who dominated the league for almost 13 straight years and got tired of winning.

:facepalm Why do you keep talking about this topic? You weren't even born yet and know nothing about this topic.

[Stringer Bell]

Some "experts" and historians had Jordan #1 by his first retirement. I remember reading some list in a sports magazine and he was #1, Jabbar was #2. I'm sure you'll find some debate around this time of other people having guys like Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc...ahead of Jordan

Jack McCallum wrote that Larry Bird was #1 all-time in 1986. A year or two later, he wrote that Magic was #1. Then when the Bulls beat the Suns in 1993, he emphatically said Jordan was #1. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

:facepalm Why do you keep talking about this topic? You weren't even born yet and know nothing about this topic.
:oldlol:

I was rolling fatty's the size of your thumb at that time, Chico.

Sorry if you're one of those who believe the "MJ got tired of winning" bullshit excuse as to why he quit on his team the first time.

[Dragonyeuw]

:oldlol:

I was rolling fatty's the size of your thumb at that time, Chico.

Sorry if you're one of those who believe the "MJ got tired of winning" bullshit excuse as to why he quit on his team the first time.

So what's your theory as to the reason? Because the 94 Bulls with 31 year MJ, prime Pippen( remember Pip that year?!), prime Grant, prime B.J, and Kukoc coming in off the bench are potentially the best of all the Bulls title teams, first or second 3peat. So why would he walk away from a likely 4th title?

[Hey Yo]

So what's your theory as to the reason? Because the 94 Bulls with 31 year MJ, prime Pippen( remember Pip that year?!), prime Grant, prime B.J, and Kukoc coming in off the bench are potentially the best of all the Bulls title teams, first or second 3peat. So why would he walk away from a likely 4th title?
Good question, one that only MJ and maybe a handful of others know the answer to.

Just find it hard to believe it was due to winning too much. Especially for a habitual gambler who wanted to win at all costs...regardless what it was he was winning at.

[Stringer Bell]

I don't buy the "nothing left to prove" thing. Even in his retirement speech, he was bitter towards the media and kept saying "you guys, you guys", "I would never let you guys drive me away from the game".

The media played a part, he was said to be burnt out, he was depressed about his father's death. His college roommate Buzz Peterson was among several who said he tried to play baseball as a way of mourning his father.

I don't buy that David Stern would actually suspend his #1 cash cow for a season for gambling.

Some quotes about his retirement from the Sports Illustrated Article right after he retired:


His multitude of public relations entanglements—criticism from the black community for his refusal to be outspoken on political and social issues; reports in author Sam Smith's best-selling 1991 book, The Jordan Rules, that he was aloof and highly critical of his teammates; the gambling allegations—had worn him down. Though he made a point of telling the media that "you did not drive me out of the game," it was clear that, in fact, the Fourth Estate had played a part in his departure. Jordan's media-bashing at the press conference was heavy-handed at times and, to those reporters who had known him a long time, somewhat sad.


Finally, factor into all of that the shooting death of his father, James Jordan, whose body was found in a South Carolina creek on Aug. 3. (Two 18-year-old North Carolina men, Larry Martin Demery and Daniel Andre Green, have been charged with first-degree murder.) Jordan was extremely close to his father, who had served at times as his unofficial spokesman, and friends say Jordan was not only despondent over the death but also angry at press reports intimating that it may have had something to do with his gambling. As for the tragedy's impact on Jordan's departure, Michael himself said, "I would've made the same decision with my father around." But it was probably the final push he needed.


Some of the Bulls are privately hopeful that he will return. In the meeting he had with his coaches and teammates just before the press conference, Jordan was much more optimistic about coming back than he was publicly. One of the things that coach Phil Jackson told Jordan was that he was a genius, like Picasso or Shakespeare, and that by retiring, he was depriving others of seeing, and being inspired by, his gift. That moved Jordan though not enough to change his mind.

Perhaps only time will do that.

http://www.si.com/vault/1993/10/18/129606/michael-jordan-the-desire-isnt-there

[Stringer Bell]

Here's a link regarding Peter Vecsey's interview of Jordan the next summer when he was playing baseball. Jordan seemed bitter about quite a few things.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227805


It had been well over a year since I saw Michael Jordan in person; Game 6 of the 1993 Finals in Phoenix, to be precise. More than two years had evaporated since we'd had any kind of undisturbed, lengthy communication. For most of his career, Jordan had been one of sports' most accessible and cooperative superstars. Rarely did anyone in the media come away from even an impromptu interview without a great story. Then, following the Bulls' first championship stampede, there was money to be made off his legend, and his confidants were the first to capitalize.

Controversial statements regarding teammates and opponents stuff he'd been saying for years in front of familiar faces, suddenly became public. Shortly thereafter, his bent for betting, his association with lowlifes and his monumental losses in golf and cards were exposed and magnified out of proportion. Consequently, as the Bulls evolved into your every day dynasty - repeating and threepeating - and the scrutiny of Jordan's lifestyle intensified, he made himself unavailable to real reporters. Physically drained, mentally exhausted, uninspired and unchallenged, organized basketball had become a serious drag. Most people are under the impression that his father's death a year ago on July 23, eight days before his birthday, was the driving force behind Michael's premature retirement at age 31. They are mistaken.

THAT was the first point the Birmingham Barren (hitting .187) right fielder emphasized after we sat down with Magic guard Nick Anderson and former Bulls' teammate Rod Higgins following Tuesday night's 3-2, 10-inning loss to the Orlando Cubs. "During the second half of my last season, I'd tell the guys over a couple beers on flights after games I was going to retire. But they didn't believe me," Jordan recounted. " 'You'll see,' I told 'em. I
had totally lost interest. I knew I had to give it up." For several significant reasons:

"My father was after me all that season to pack it in when it was over. He felt my teammate didn't appreciate what I was doing for them," said Jordan, specifically referring to Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. "I covered their asses when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome fourth-quarter deficits all by myself. It bothered my father a lot, just as it bothered me, to hear them bitchin' about not getting enough credit, or not getting enough shots, or squawking about the supposed preferential treatment I was getting from [coach] Phil Jackson 'I said to Horace, 'Why should you worry about what I'm getting now when I'm not worried about what you're going to get later?"

"They had no idea how much pressure and grief I had to put up with off the court while carrying them on the court. I wanted them to find out for themselves how tough it was to be on their own," Jordan underlined. "Scottie found out the hard way what it's like to be under the microscope 24 hours a day. "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great. Sitting at the end of Game 3 against the Knicks was the worst thing he could've done. I don't think he'll ever live that down.

"He should have known better. Plenty of times Phil I would use me as a decoy in that same situation. I didn't like it either, but you can't say anything. You wait until you're behind closed doors until you wait to complain.

"The thing about it is, if Toni Kukoc missed the last shot, Phil's neck was on the line, not Scottie's. The game would've gone into overtime and Scottie
would've had the opportunity to win it."

[Stringer Bell]

JORDAN'S retirement was also prompted by Jackson's continual desire to down load his offensive responsibility. "I like Phil a lot," he said. "I think he's one of the best coaches in the game. He cares about the players, but he also knows how to separate himself from them, too, which is very important.

"What I objected to was Phil's insistence to diversify the offense. Each year he stressed that more and more. I didn't like it, because it put more pressure on me to produce at crunch time after being out of rhythm most of the game."

Jordan conveyed his disapproval for Jackson's offense and disinterest in playing the regular season to GM Jerry Krause two weeks before training camp was to open. A decision to retire had been made, he declared. Krause asked him to keep his mind open a little bit longer until he met with Jackson. "If Phil could have come up with something, I might have stayed," Jordan said. "If I could have sat for a large portion of the regular season, the way Bill Cartwright did, I would have stayed. But Phil couldn't come with a solution or a reason why I should stay."

"Let's face it, if I was allowed to sit out until a month before the playoffs, something like that, the media would have been all over me. They would have said, 'Who does he think he is? He thinks he's above the game. He's not a team player! He's selfish!' All those thing.

"I didn't want to make any demands about getting the ball, because it would have been perceived as being selfish. I wanted an alternative. "This wasn't about winning another scoring title. I'll admit I was selfish my first few years, but not after that. This was about the perception of fans and the media as my average diminished each year. They'd see it as me slipping when it wasn't true. I could've averaged 32-33 a game for the next four years. The last thing I wanted was to defend myself to the media night after night."

CLEARLY, the media played an influential part in Jordan's retirement. He found out, much to his dismay and disgust, that when you attain his
echelon of celebrity, people look to tear you down. It happens in sports, entertainment, politics, all walks of high visibility.

"They can't find fault in what you do for a living, so they look for warts and weaknesses in your private life," Jordan said, still angry. "The media came after me the last couple years because they couldn't write anything bad about my play. They couldn't write any longer I was a poor shooter. They couldn't write anymore I didn't make my teammates better. They couldn't write I wasn't a winner. So they harped on my gambling. "Meanwhile, I did nothing wrong, nothing that others in basketball [owners, coaches, other high-profile players, members of the media weren't doing and haven't been doing on golf courses and casinos for years."

"When my father disappeared, it was so irresponsible, so insensitive to link my father with my gambling," he went on. Why would he be a target just because I've lost big money? I've always paid my debts. Nobody had any evidence to support such speculation, but it didn't stop them from jumping to conclusions. "That was so unfair to my mother, my sisters and my brothers. Yet when it came out that his death had nothing to do with me, nobody took the time or used the same power they'd abused to apologize. They till haven't apologized."




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227805

[Stringer Bell]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227805


HERE were two stories on the wire the day I arrived in Orlando. Shaquille O'Neal and Reggie Miller had been quoted saying Dream Team II was better than the original entity; and Celtic VP M.L. Carr aid he'd give the Bulls a No. 1 pick if allowed to talk to Jordan about joining Boston. Both irrational remarks drew characteristic responses from Jordan, his competitive juices boiling.

"Those guys are on the right team, because they're definitely dreaming," he said. "Not only was Dream Team I better, but we could beat them right now. The only player from our squad who wouldn't be able to contribute is Larry Bird. I'm in shape. Maglc's still playing games. Charles [Barkley] might need a little rehab on his back. The rest are still in their prime. If somebody could put it together for charity us against them that's one game I'd come out of retirement to play.

As far Carr is concerned Jordan thinks he's a loon.

"Why would I play for the Celtics?" he said. "If I were going to come back I'd play for the Bulls not a team I took such pleasure in beating. Why would I play for the Celts? Dominique is going to look strange enough in green."

JORDAN said one of the things he enjoys most about baseball is sitting around for an hour or more after the game discussing everything that had happened with his teammates (unlike in basketball when the players split quickly).

He loves the camaraderie and he loves talking baseball now that he is following it closely. However based on my four-hour visit with him he loves to talk basketball even more. He remains wired into the league and the Bulls.

Players such as Penny Hardaway and Shaq coache such as George Karl and Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf stay in constant touch whether it's to share information or to seek his opinion.

Reinsdorf for instance told him less than a month ago he almost resigned Grant. The owner had requested to talk with his unrestricted free agent without his agent present to discuss his future. At the meetng Reinsdorf asked Grant to come up with a figure he wanted and he d do the same. When they compared numbers the owner's was a few hundred thousand dollars less.

Reinsdorf said he'd make up the difference. He signed an agreement for $4M per for five and gave it to Grant when he left the office.

When Grant notified his agent Jimmy Sexton what had transpired he went berserk. Sexton also represents Pippen and is still seething at Krause pertaining to Grant's negotiations and for keeping him in the dark about Scottie's near-trade to Seattle for Shawn Kemp.

Both Karl and most recently Heat owner Billy Cunningham have also contacted Jordan regarding Pippen's talent proclivities and just compensation).

"I told Billy he's worth two good players" Jordan said. "Rice and Miner would be fair but that he shouldn't give up Seikaly. He's one of the few centers who plays inside and his game would complement Scottie's."

"Had Scottie gone to Seattle it would've been a great deal for the Sonics.
He would've made their players better. Kemp doesn't do that."

AFTER three hours with Jordan the only untouched subject was his comeback. Is he remotely considering a return to the sport he dominated for the majority of his nine NBA seasons? Since Day 1 I've maintained he wouldn't want to endure the torture of getting back into pro basketball shape.

Moreover his personality wouldn't permit him to be any less than the player he was when he left. That would be virtually impossible I submit after a year's layoff. Even for His Airness.

[Stringer Bell]

Damn character limits, gotta post multiple times to get the whole thing in.


"You've got to be kidding," he responded. "Give me two weeks to work out and I could come back and average 32 a game. No question! Think about it that's only eight point quarter. If I only score two in one quarter that only means getting 14 in another."

It's all just a mental thing. Physically I'd have no problems. I wasn't hurting when I left and I m not hurting now.

Well then what's preventing Jordan from reversing professions before age becomes an impervious barrier?

"I can't think of anything that would make me come back," Jordan said. "If I'm through with baseball after a full year and I'm bored I can play golf. Money I've got 10-year deals with most of my sponsors and I m only in the second or third year with most of them."

I've thought about it a lot he added convincingly and I can't come up with a single reason to change my mind.

"Even if I did my pride would stop me. I'd never want the media to think they were right. Most of em predicted I'd be back. Well I won't. I still love the actual game but hate many aspects surrounding it. I'll play in charity and pickup games but I'll never play organized ball again."

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227805

[jbryan1984]

I was born the year Jordan was drafted so growing up, there was no question he was the best. You heard boxing = Mike Tyson, wrestling = Hulk Hogan, basketball = Michael Jordan. You know what I mean? He was the most well known guy before I even knew the word basketball. Knowing what I know now in terms of history, I don't think he was the greatest yet. I think after second three peat, he takes that title more clearly.