Aftermath of Game 7: A list of hypothetical scenarios

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm going to list a few hypotheticals; be genuine and give us your honest opinions.

A) LeBron goes out and has another incredible game tonight. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FVMP? Moreover, where do you rank him ALL TIME?

B) LeBron folds under pressure and has a Kobe-esque Game 7 vs Boston performance. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FMVP? Where do you put him ALL TIME?

C) Curry redeems himself, has a spectacular game 7 on par or better than LeBron's last 2 games. Warriors win. Do you give him FMVP? Where do you rank him ALL TIME?

D) Curry plays pedestrian and has an average to subpar game. Warriors lose. Does it take away from the individual season he's had? Would he still be regarded as the BEST offensive player in the league?

A few notes... I didn't want to mention Bron winning and having another GREAT game, because truthfully I think most of us would give him a SIGNIFICANT legacy boost. Save for trolls and Kobe fans of course. Also, these questions are kinda difficult without the eye test (and several other intangibles), but assuming the eye test were proportionate with my vague scenarios...what say you? :confusedshrug:

[lilteapot]

I'm going to list a few hypotheticals; be genuine and give your honest opinion.

A) LeBron goes out and has another incredible game tonight. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FVMP? Moreover, where do you rank him ALL TIME?

B) LeBron folds under pressure and has a Kobe-esque game 7 vs Boston performance. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FMVP? Where do you put him all TIME?

C) Curry redeems himself, has a spectacular game 7 on par or better than LeBron's last 2 games. Warriors win. Do you give him FMVP? Where do you rank him ALL TIME?

D) Curry plays pedestrian, has an average to subpar game. Warriors lose. Does it take away from the individual season he's had? Would he still be regarded as the BEST offensive player in the league?

A few notes... I didn't want to mention Lebron winning and having another GREAT game, because truthfully I think most of us would give him a SIGNIFICANT legacy boost. Save for trolls and Kobe fans of course.

These questions are kinda difficult without the eye test (and several other intangibles), but assuming the eye test were proportionate with my vague scenarios...what say you? :confusedshrug:

A) I give him Finals MVP and rank him top 5 all time.

B) No Finals MVP, but he is still top 10.

C) Yes, give him Finals MVP. He's ranked top 25 all time.

D) It doesn't take away from anything he or his team accomplished throughout the season. Not happening though, the Warriors are winning.

[NBAGOAT]

A) top 5 possibly top 4 which is hard since I have Magic there. I would give him FMVP but there's a good chance he doesn't get it.

B) Won't have him that much lower so I don't put as much stock as most into a few games even though this one is as important as it can get winning wise or legacy wise.. One great game vs bad game isn't going make up 5 spots in an all time list. Fringe top 5 5-8 ish. Depends on how Curry or someone else plays for the Warriors but most likely wouldn't give it to him and he's not getting it.

C) yea definitely give him FMVP even if Lebron may still be the best player overall this series. Really hard to place him in an all time list. I'm just going say roughly top 40.

D) yes a little bit but him not playing some games in postseaon and not playing as well even if it's due to injury has already taken away from it. His RS had a great case for top 5 peak but his peak isn't top 5 anymore. I think he still be regarded as the best offensive player in the league, Durant wasn't great in the postseason either and Lebron still had obvious weaknesses to his game even if the last 2 games were great.

[ScalsFan21]

A) LeBron goes out and has another incredible game tonight. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FVMP? Moreover, where do you rank him ALL TIME?

I think LBJ has played by far the best series, but I am also a believer that FMVP should go to the winning team. I hold him to a top 2 all-time standard already on a game-to-game basis and have been doing so for several years, so one game won't really change that in my mind. Accolade-wise it's clear his RS MVP window has ended (by his own choice in some ways since... why bother), and his chip-as-the-man window is obviously shrinking every year due to his age. I rank him top 2 ever as an individual positive on-court impact, though, but for his jewelry and "legacy" to back that up, he could really use this all-time historic win tonight. If he is as good as I believe he is, he will be an absolute monster tonight and outshine Curry yet again for another consecutive game.

B) LeBron folds under pressure and has a Kobe-esque Game 7 vs Boston performance. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FMVP? Where do you put him ALL TIME?

Same answer as I gave for A tbh... Even less of a case for FMVP in this situation, but still not enough for me to "drop" him on my all-time list. For me, there's not much he can do at this point to fall in my list, simply because I almost always will view his case as stronger than the players who he would hypothetically fall behind.

C) Curry redeems himself, has a spectacular game 7 on par or better than LeBron's last 2 games. Warriors win. Do you give him FMVP? Where do you rank him ALL TIME?

I already view current Curry's impact as being at WORST top 15 EVER, and I value peak play extremely high. What I've seen from Curry this season specifically (to a lesser extent last year) is already superior to what I've seen from so many other ATG players who are almost universally ranked above him. If he craps out a monster all-time clutch performance tonight through being likely hobbled (along with several teammate injuries), it's going to be very impressive and very, very thick. I can't exactly pinpoint where I'd have him all-time, but probably in the top 15 to play the game. He compares favorably in my mind with Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Kidd all-time, and he's really a top 2 PG ever, so I don't think it's a major exaggeration at all.

D) Curry plays pedestrian and has an average to subpar game. Warriors lose. Does it take away from the individual season he's had? Would he still be regarded as the BEST offensive player in the league?


I'm of the belief he's playing at least somewhat hurt so it's hard to say IMO. I tend to say the answer is still yes, and no it shouldn't take away from what he did before he went down in the playoffs... I understand why it will for so many people though. It's a bit unfair to me with the defense teams are playing on him combined with his unselfishness to really get on him for some of his mediocre lines lately, but I think his impact will be on point tonight in a big way.

..

[SamuraiSWISH]

Best player this game wins MVP. And in LeBron's case, even if they lose. Like he should've received last year as well and got hosed out of by the league.

Eye test if always most important for me. If Bron has a legacy game and concludes a series on par with the GOAT Finals performers and loses ... he's still top ten. If they win the game and the championship in the process? He's firmly a fixture in top five all time. Moving past the likes of the sketchy 2 ring only crowd like Wilt, Hakeem, etc.

My opinion of Curry doesn't change. Very good player, best shooter ever, surrounded by an utterly loaded squad. He's not the greatest offensive weapon ever nor did he have a season better than the likes of the best from MJ, Bron, Kobe or even Wade.

[beastee]

A) I give him Finals MVP and rank him top 5 all time.

B) No Finals MVP, but he is still top 10.

C) Yes, give him Finals MVP. He's ranked top 25 all time.

D) It doesn't take away from anything he or his team accomplished throughout the season. Not happening though, the Warriors are winning.
This is accurate.

[scandisk_]

To tell you the truth bran winning game 7 and bringing the championship to Cleveland is HISTORIC. It would be the final nail in the coffin on the kobe vs bran debates.

I'm not interested in anything else. If bran could pull this off :bowdown:

[tmacattack33]

1. (Lebron has great game, but Cavs lose)....Lebron is 6th best time

2. (Lebron has a C- type of game, and Cavs lose)...Lebron is 8th all time

3 and 4. It's too hard to judge Curry right now...he's just entered his prime, is already 28, has one of the deepest teams of all time surrounding him, and has these injuries

[KiiiiNG]

If Cavs lose, LeBron becomes first player on losing team to win FMVP since Jerry West.... very historic, remains top 3 GOAT

If Cavs win... LeBron surpasses Jordan in terms of sheer miraculousness... Jordan never did anything like what LeBron is gonna do tonight. Space Jam 2 would then automatically be more believable and captivating than the original as this is a real-life version of LeBron defeating the Monstars (73 win Warriors)

Wouldn't be surprised if LeBron then becomes the consensus GOAT and his shoes replaces Jordan's as the new kings of the sneaker world.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

https://nationalbasketblogassociation.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/lebron-witness.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Interesting responses.

Everybody has their own opinion for the most part, but I'm actually surprised with the feedback on Curry. Not even trolling when I say the objectivity is refreshing. :applause:

[NBAGOAT]

Interesting responses.

Everybody has their own opinion for the most part, but I'm actually surprised with the feedback on Curry. Not even trolling when I say the objectivity is refreshing. :applause:

What did you expect the feedback on Curry to be?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What did you expect the feedback on Curry to be?

More overreactions (thread hasn't even gone a full page yet so we'll see). On other forums and fans outside of the internet, Curry is being "exposed" right now and will be remembered as overrated if the Warriors were to lose game 7.

ISH, the wild-wild west of basketball talk, has been f*cking tame. :biggums:

[NBAGOAT]

More overreactions (thread hasn't even gone a full page yet so we'll see). On other forums and fans outside of the internet, Curry is being "exposed" right now and will be remembered as overrated if the Warriors were to lose game 7.

ah I mean it'll be disappointing and his playoff performances hasn't been that good. It is kind of expected when you're in the moment. I'll be more interested in what people say a few weeks from now.

[SamuraiSWISH]

There's been plenty of over exaggerations on ISH and media hype about Curry as a player this season.

This post season and Finals has sobered everyone, thankfully.

Fantastic season. Best shooter ever. Hell huge improvement over his performance last season. Which I think can be attributed to an improved bulked up muscular physique, supreme confidence and playing off the ball as a SG more. But his season doesn't mean or make him a better player than Kobe or Wade as I've seen he's been claimed to be better than ... including our very own OP if I'm not mistaken. Kob

[NBAGOAT]

There's been plenty of over exaggerations on ISH and media hype about Curry as a player this season.

This post season and Finals has sobered everyone, thankfully.

Fantastic season. Best shooter ever. Hell huge improvement over his performance last season. Which I think can be attributed to an improved bulked up muscular physique, supreme confidence and playing off the ball as a SG more. But his season doesn't mean or make him a better player than Kobe or Wade as I've seen he's been claimed to be better than ... including our very own OP if I'm not mistaken. Kob

his regular season was still clearly better than Kobe 06 or Wade 09. Also it's easy to criticize Curry for his postseason performance but Kobe and Wade didn't do too much those postseasons either(not their fault ofc). One stat to keep in mind to help explain the playoff dropoff, he shot 70% at the rim in the regular season, 54% in the playoffs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No 06 Kobe and 09 Wade were better individual players. They carried cow shit for teammates to the playoffs, facing doubles and triple teams the whole season.

GSW is stacked, championship rapport and an offensive with enough weapons to spread defenses thin that allow perfectly for Curry to put up huge numbers against out classed defenses. Blending his greatest strength in seamlessly, while all his individual flaws were hidden.

He doesn't perform nearly that well in 06 Kobe or 09 Wade's position. This isn't taking into account the defensive side of the ball either. Both were first team caliber.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

ah I mean it'll be disappointing and his playoff performances hasn't been that good. It is kind of expected when you're in the moment. I'll be more interested in what people say a few weeks from now.

True.

Its why I mentioned the "eye test". People are saying what they are now, but its hard to gauge without actually seeing it unfold.

Eye test, stats and a brief summary of said game are all mutually exclusive - the former being THE most important obviously.


There's been plenty of over exaggerations on ISH and media hype about Curry as a player this season.

This post season and Finals has sobered everyone, thankfully.

Fantastic season. Best shooter ever. Hell huge improvement over his performance last season. Which I think can be attributed to an improved bulked up muscular physique, supreme confidence and playing off the ball as a SG more. But his season doesn't mean or make him a better player than Kobe or Wade as I've seen he's been claimed to be better than ... including our very own OP if I'm not mistaken. Kob

I think his regular-season was better than ANY from Kobe or Wade, factoring in the 73-win historic feat and numerous impact stats (other-worldly).

The playoffs have been a different animal though. So yeah, as an objective fan, you're kinda forced to pump the brakes.

[ArbitraryWater]

If Cavs win, Bron is undisputed co GOAT. It would be the GOAT feat in NBA History.

Lose but he continues to play well? Just top 5.

[NBAGOAT]

True.

Its why I mentioned the "eye test". People are saying what they are now, but its hard to gauge without actually seeing it unfold.

Eye test, stats and a brief summary of said game are all mutually exclusive - the former being THE most important obviously.



I think his regular-season was been better than ANY from Kobe or Wade, factoring in the 73-win historic feat and numerous impact stats (other-worldly).

The playoffs have been a different animal though. So yeah, as an objective fan, you're kinda forced to pump the brakes.

yep, you're definitely right about some the overreactions being prisoner of the moment stuff. I remember how quickly the script changed on Durant after game 6 and 7 too and in the opposite direction for Lebron after the last 2.

[ArbitraryWater]

To tell you the truth bran winning game 7 and bringing the championship to Cleveland is HISTORIC. It would be the final nail in the coffin on the kobe vs bran debates.

I'm not interested in anything else. If bran could pull this off :bowdown:

There is no Bron/Kobe debate, never was. Was obvious at any point who's better, could pull more off, more ability..

[Kblaze8855]

Only thing I know is its gonna be madness here no matter what. The only thing that could mitigate it is the Warriors taking like a 26 point first quater lead so we all have time to coast into the result without getting too excited.

Far as the rest....I cant imagine what could happen to make me think Lebron is better than anyone he isnt better than right now. He coud pass Hakeem and Isiah in titles and tie Bird...but cant catch anyone else elite. Well he can pass Kobe if you mean...titles as best player. But none of that is gonna make me like...decide hes 4th instead of 7th or something. Im not sure how people really...do that.

Ive seen him own a game 7 to win a ring and ive seen him no show in the finals and lose. Im not sure how seeing either again would alter my understanding of his game relative to other all time greats. What can he do that we never saw him do? Well I guess he could play poorly and win on the play of his teammates. We have never seen that...but that feels unlikely doesnt it?

Anyone able to see him scoring less than 30? Even if its a blowout hes gonna score 10-12 late trying to bring them back and end up with like 34 you would assume. And if they are up big...he will probably score even more.

I dont think anyone sees a 17/8/6 on 4-26 game coming. It would be amusing though.

[tmacattack33]

No 06 Kobe and 09 Wade were better individual players. They carried cow shit for teammates to the playoffs, facing doubles and triple teams the whole season.

GSW is stacked, championship rapport and an offensive with enough weapons to spread defenses thin that allow perfectly for Curry to put up huge numbers against out classed defenses. Blending his greatest strength in seamlessly, while all his individual flaws were hidden.

He doesn't perform nearly that well in 06 Kobe or 09 Wade's position. This isn't taking into account the defensive side of the ball either. Both were first team caliber.

Curry in the regular season would have done similar things on most teams. He really didn't need that much space at all to go to work, due to his fast release and GOAT range.

And also...how about the other end.. his own ability to spread the floor and attract defenders, to help his teammates when they have the ball? He probably did this better than any player in the history of the game.

So, his game made his teammates look better than they are...just as much if not more than the other way around.

[JZ600]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I'm going to list a few hypotheticals; be genuine and give us your honest opinions.

A) LeBron goes out and has another incredible game tonight. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FVMP? Moreover, where do you rank him ALL TIME?
Lebron gets FMVP. Probably 5-6 all time

B) LeBron folds under pressure and has a Kobe-esque Game 7 vs Boston performance. Cavs lose. Do you still give him FMVP? Where do you put him ALL TIME?
Lebron does not get FMVP. 7-8 all time

C) Curry redeems himself, has a spectacular game 7 on par or better than LeBron's last 2 games. Warriors win. Do you give him FMVP? Where do you rank him ALL TIME?
If Lebron has a great game, then FMVP should still go to him (but it wont obviously). Still hard to say for Curry but probably around top 30 range for now.

D) Curry plays pedestrian and has an average to subpar game. Warriors lose. Does it take away from the individual season he's had? Would he still be regarded as the BEST offensive player in the league?
It definitely DOES take away from the season he has had. Lebron has been the best offensive player in the playoffs, so I would have lebron over curry offensively.

[PP34Deuce]

If Cleveland wins the title. Lebron is over Duncan Hakeem and magic all time. He'd be at 4 5 all time.

Most people even his haters have him at 8 to 10.

Cleveland is tough to predict. I believe lebron sets the tone they will win. You don't need 41 from lebron. For Cleve to win the points have to be..

Lebron 25 to 28
Kyrie 30 to 35
Love 15 to 18
Jr smith with 15 and good defense
Tristan with 10 and 16

Kerr is predictably going to blanket shooters and force lebron to score. He's going to trap kyrie if he brings the ball up.

[CarlosBoozer]

Curry in the regular season would have done similar things on most teams. He really didn't need that much space at all to go to work, due to his fast release and GOAT range.

And also...how about the other end.. his own ability to spread the floor and attract defenders, to help his teammates when they have the ball? He probably did this better than any player in the history of the game.

So, his game made his teammates look better than they are...just as much if not more than the other way around.
That's bullsh*t, stop downplaying his teammates. He spreads the floor but that doesn't affect how good the bench plays when he rests, how Klay catches on fire when Curry is cold or out and the ball movement GSW has unlike 90% of the teams. They won playoffs games without him, blazers weren't the most elite team but you have to have a mentally strong and talented team to win without your star player.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kblaze again with his 'these 2-3 games won't change my opinion of him a single bit' philosophy lol...

Bro, he's building a major part of his legacy/career right now, and showing grit that I haven't seen from anyone ever before.. it would have been suuuuper easy to fold like a tent, or not bring a super human effort, twice.

[MintBerryCrunch]

Can't wait until ISH melts down when LeBron wins the championship.

[HoopSuperstar]

This would be a major hit to Lebron Legacy if the game were at Cleveland, and Lebron James lost this game 7. Many don't expect the Cavs to win this game considering that their opponent had the best all time NBA regular season record.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze again with his 'these 2-3 games won't change my opinion of him a single bit' philosophy lol...

Bro, he's building a major part of his legacy/career right now, and showing grit that I haven't seen from anyone ever before.. it would have been suuuuper easy to fold like a tent, or not bring a super human effort, twice.

The way OP asked...it wont. Im gonna start shifting an all time top 10 around in a few hours? Naaah. The level Lebron is on is hard to exit. The way ive always seen it you have people who are arguably the best ever....then the all time elites who dont quite fit in there. The first group is at least 4 people(Jordan and the 3 centers)...6 at most(if we slide in Bird and Magic). The rest is probably 10-15 people. Maybe he goes from that 10-15 people to....arguably with the others on the fringe of that arguably the best level. But I cant imagine what would have to happen.

What is he really gonna do? Score 35-40 and hit the shot to seal the title in game 7? Ive seen him do that. Seeing it twice means hes now....5th all time? I dont know how people make these solid declarations as if there is any real disconnect between all these people to begin with.


What could he possibly do to have a better career than Duncan...tonight?

Nothing really.

If he shoots like he did in game 7 2013 they will probably win. Should I be more impressed when the same kinds of shots go in? Is something different proven? It being on the road....totally alters his place in NBA history? Or....will events that already happened(it being 3-1 a week ago) alter how good he is in the future if he pulls it off?

How do I watch this game and then slide John Havlicek, Doctor J, Tim Duncan, and Larry Bird around?

I dont have a top ____ to begin with. Might...miiiiiight have a top 4 with two more I accept as an answer as best ever without thinking youre an idiot.

I dont see how anyone makes a definitive top 10 list to begin with. Too many factors. Too many ways to look at it. No matter who you leave off you kinda look like an idiot.

All those guys after some point are....about the same.

[ArbitraryWater]

Really? Him having a top 10 finals series of all time, upsetting the 73-win Warriors, wouldnt change anything, because youve apparently seen him do it in 2013? :rolleyes:

This is a whole different ball park than in 2013... hes showing grit that before I havent seen of him, or of any player.

The way you rank players is just incredibly weird, where, performance doesnt matter... yet, its all thats should matter. Really, how dumb is it to not go after THE PLAYERS PERFORMANCE. How they perform is what makes them, and this would be a HUGE, HUGE building stone in what LeBron will be remembered by... but apparently it doesnt matter?

So 2013 didnt matter either? Or did 2013 matter, but everything that reminisces 2013 again, wont, because he already did it? Answer precisely please.

I dont know what the name dropping rambling has to do with any of this, tbh.

[Kblaze8855]

Doesnt matter isnt the way id put it....but really...I dont get why id change anyones ranking because I see them do something again.

How do I decide youre on a different level as a player by repeating past performances? To me players are....what they consistently are. You go up and up as you improve...stay there a while...then fall with age.

Am I to believe Lebron is getting better? If so...ok. Id change his ranking. But I dont see that so how much he accomplishes as the player hes been for years doesnt much alter my opinion.

Lebron is too far in to start doing shit we have never know he was capable of.

Do you think I thought Jordan was better after 98 than I did in 93? If he was the best...he was the best. he was just the best plus more hardware.

I just cant wrap my head around 10 years of thinking a player is ____ then something happens and I act like he was ____ all along. People dont change in retrospect with more accolades. Lebron to me is a finished product with an evolving legacy. Does that not make sense?

[90sgoat]

If Lebron wins, he is around that suspect 9-13 range, if he loses he is around 15-18.

Both Lebron and Curry has really played poorly in too many games to beconsidered top of the pop all time.

Curry has the most to lose, if he doesn't win, he is relegated to Reggie Miller level.