ESPN insider request: Is Lebron James having best finals ever?

[Derivative]

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/16297767/is-lebron-james-having-best-individual-finals-ever

[Nilocon165]

If they win then undoubtedly yes

[MintBerryCrunch]

Let me save you time, the answer is yes.

[feyki]

Lespn .

[Bankaii]

Nah not yet.
But if he drops a 30/10/10 game and they win it will undoubtably be up there with 91-93 MJ and 2000-02 Shaq.

[Doranku]

No, he played like shit the first four games of the series.

[K.dot ShowTime]

He needs another historic performance to be in the conversation

[Odinn]

The answer is no anyway.

[ArbitraryWater]

The answer is no anyway.

Its a yes if he caps it off playing at just 75% of what he did the previous games.. take it from the great Zach Lowe:
"LeBron being LeBron, he's never had two consecutive games like that in his life, I thought he was better in game 6 even than he was in game 5, and I just feel like, you know I remember after the Heat won their first title, you had posted immediately after the final buzzer a piece called 'The End of all that', which was just like 'I'm so glad that he won, because I just don't wanna hear about it anymore'. I don't wanna hear about he's not clutch, he's not this he's not that, and yet we've just kept hearing about it.

He's 2 of 4 in the finals, and blah blah blah... what was Jerry West's record? And what was Wilt's record? And what was Jordan's record?

Like this to me, this would be, this would really be the end of all that. If he leads the greatest comeback in finals history, and has another game thats even 80% of what he just did, in laying waste to the Warriors by himself, well I guess not in game 5 when Kyrie matched him scoring wise, but just, Kyrie can't match the blocks, he can't match the rebounds, he can't match the assists, if he does that, and he does it on the road in game 7 where teams never ever win, to me, it's the greatest, one of the greatest all-time championship series performances ever. It ends all the noise about him, that has driven us crazy for 10 years, its over. At that point, if you are barking about LeBron's mental fortitude, you are on the margins of life."

[senelcoolidge]

No, he played like shit the first four games of the series.

This. So why is this even up for debate. It's like these people only live for the moment.

[ArbitraryWater]

No, he played like shit the first four games of the series.

right.

Through 4 gms the dude was already better than any Kobe series.

This is through 4 gms: 25/11/8 on 48%

:oldlol:

The standards are so wildly different for certain people...

[oh the horror]

No, he played like shit the first four games of the series.




This. People need to slow the hell down on this board.

[ArbitraryWater]

This. People need to slow the hell down on this board.

on this board? You act like this board is friendly towards LeBron.. him going for the GOAT achievement is the consensus most places else lol

[NBAGOAT]

No, he played like shit the first four games of the series.

I mean Lebron played great game 3. I still put some MJ or Shaq series above him but even they weren't great every game.

[Hey Yo]

[QUOTE=Derivative]

"Is LeBron James putting up the best NBA Finals performance ever by an individual player?

Have any of the NBA's biggest stars, from Michael Jordan to Wilt Chamberlain, shined this brightly on the biggest stage?

After James put together another 41-point double-double to help his Cleveland Cavaliers force a deciding Game 7 on Sunday, it's worth considering how his Finals compares with the best in NBA history. James is now averaging 30.2 points, 11.0 rebounds and 8.5 assists per game and leads the Finals in all three categories -- plus steals and blocks, too.

Ranking LeBron's Finals by points, rebounds and assists

If we're looking for the best Finals ever, we have to start with basic player stats. After all, throughout the Finals careers of Chamberlain and Bill Russell, the NBA merely tracked points, rebounds and assists by players. For that matter, we don't even have assists before 1960, so I used that as my cutoff.

It doesn't make sense to just use raw points, rebounds and assists per game because that doesn't take into account the decline in pace since the high-scoring 1960s. When Elgin Baylor averaged 40.6 points per game in the 1962 Finals, he accounted for a lower percentage of the total points in the series (17.5 percent) than James did in averaging 35.8 points last year (18.5 percent).

I used similar measures (the percentage of series totals for both teams) for rebounds and assists. Surprisingly, adding those three percentages yields a top 10 made up exclusively of post-1978 Finals and headlined by James' last two.

NBA FINALS PRODUCTION

PLAYER TEAM YEAR PTS% REB% AST% TOTAL
LeBron James CLE 2015 .185 .145 .227 .557
LeBron James CLE 2016 .148 .136 .208 .493
Michael Jordan CHI 1991 .162 .088 .243 .492
LeBron James MIA 2012 .143 .130 .219 .492
Tim Duncan SAS 2003 .142 .192 . 153 .488
Magic Johnson LAL 1991 .096 .107 .264 .467
Shaquille O'NealLAL 2001 .170 .180 .116 .465
Magic Johnson LAL 1988 .106 .070 . 277 .453
Kobe Bryant LAL 2009 .169 .071 .213 .453
Magic Johnson LAL 1987 .116 .098 .239 .452

The best pre-merger Finals by this performance were Bill Russell in 1962 and 1963, at .448 and .441, respectively. Those are followed by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1974 (.427) and a pair of Chamberlain Finals six years apart (.425 in 1964 with San Francisco and .414 with the L.A. Lakers in 1970).

If James' 2016 Finals can be said to be better than any before 1978, that allows us to use more advanced measures to rank how he's played. After all, while he certainly carried a heavier load than anyone else a year ago, it's hard to call James' 2015 Finals the best ever when he had a .477 true shooting percentage. James has been much more efficient with more help this time around.

[Odinn]

Shaq had 3 consecutive historical finals. If you want to highlight the competition they faced, Shaq still has that series in 2000 against the Pacers which he was the only decisive force on his team. And it was the time Shaq getting criticized by media just like LeBron.
I don't think Jordan's 1992 finals can be compared to these, but his 1991 and 1993 finals performances were huge as well. Magic got humbled by him. And 1993 Suns were a great team. Jordan scored 40+ points in 4 straight games while winning 2. That's how competitive were the Suns. Jordan needed to score 55 to win against them.

And there's still Magic's performance in 1987 against the Celtics. Even though the Celtics basically without a bench, 26/8/13 against them counts. Kareem's 1980 finals usually gets overlooked because Magic's legendary game 6 performance but it still deserves recognition at this point.


There were similar finals series with equally or more impressive numbers with the drama. The thing is, they didn't happen in internet age. That's all. At least for me. That's how I see the situation.

[oh the horror]

right.

Through 4 gms the dude was already better than any Kobe series.

This is through 4 gms: 25/11/8 on 48%

:oldlol:

The standards are so wildly different for certain people...




Bro, no one is talking about Kobe Bryant right now. Go lay down for a bit before you have a nervous breakdown.

[Hey Yo]

Cont.


MOST FINALS WARP PER GAME

PLAYER TEAM YEAR WARP/G
Tim Duncan San Antonio 2003 .427
Michael Jordan Chicago 1991 .399
Shaquille O'Neal L.A. Lakers 2001 .383
LeBron James Cleveland 2016 .364
Dwyane Wade Miami 2006 .360
Tim Duncan San Antonio 1999 .360
Shaquille O'Neal L.A. Lakers 2002 .359
Shaquille O'Neal L.A. Lakers 2000 .347

*Since 1978

This version appropriately gets Michael Jordan on the list -- he has three others in the top 20 -- and shows just how dominant Shaquille O'Neal was during the Lakers' five-game win over the Philadelphia 76ers in 2001 and sweep of the Nets the following year.

James doesn't fare quite as well here, but the series isn't concluded yet, giving him the opportunity to move up. He's been getting stronger over the course of the Finals, with his best two performances coming in the last two games. According to Basketball-Reference.com, in Game 6 James had the best game score (invented by former ESPN Insider John Hollinger to summarize box-score contributions in a single game) in their Finals database, which dates back to 1984. And that came after James' Game 5 performance, rated third since 1984 by the same measure.

Even if James isn't having the best modern Finals, he's surely having the most versatile one. Consider that since 1978, 482 players have seen at least 100 minutes of action in a Finals series. Of them, James ranks in the top 20 in assists (9.4, 20th) and steals (3.3, 16th) per 100 team plays, blocks (5.4, 16th) per 100 opponent 2-point attempts and usage rate (.336, 15th).

LeBron the MVP, win or lose

After exploring the history of MVPs on losing teams, I made the case before Game 6 of last year's Finals that James should be the MVP no matter the outcome. Remarkably, his case is even stronger this year. Not only has James played better, no Warriors player has been as good this year as Stephen Curry and MVP Andre Iguodala (who beat James 7-4 in balloting among 11 voters) were in last year's Finals.

In the event the Cavaliers come up short, James' edge over the second-best player in WARP would currently be the largest ever for a player on the losing team.

BEST LOSING FINALS PERFORMANCES

PLAYER TEAM YEAR WARP EDGE
LeBron James CLE 2016 2.18 1.13
Dwyane Wade MIA 2011 1.80 .97
Shawn Kemp SEA 1996 1.60 .46
LeBron James CLE 2015 1.74 .34
Julius Erving PHI 1982 1.18 .32
Chauncey Billups DET 2005 1.60 .21
LeBron James MIA 2014 1.31 .20
Karl Malone UTA 1998 1.60 .03

Moreover, the No. 2 player in WARP in this series is Cleveland teammate Kyrie Irving (1.05). The top Golden State player by this metric is Curry at .70 WARP. So regardless of what happens in Game 7, I think James is again the MVP of this series.

As for best Finals, that's going to require another huge outing from James tonight. The one thing missing from his 2016 Finals r

[ArbitraryWater]

How is the internet thing a pro argument for them?

-No team has ever come back from down 1-3 in the NBA finals (LeBron would have to do it the hard way, 2/3 road games!)

-Only two teams have forced a game 7 after down 1-3 in the NBA finals (1951 Knicks, 1966 Lakers), and no team since after the first 17 years of the league's existance.

-Home teams are 15-3 in NBA Finals Game 7's / Road teams are 3-15 in NBA Finals Game 7's

-Plays highest record team in NBA history - 73-win Warriors

-Warriors haven't lost 3 straight games since 2013

-Warriors have lost back-to-back games ONCE this season

Circumstance/adversity wise, GOAT.

And the play matches up.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bro, no one is talking about Kobe Bryant right now. Go lay down for a bit before you have a nervous breakdown.

Yea, but would you describe any of his as as beyond shit? No, thats a reality check for the different standards you trolls apply. Take it, leave it, for free.

[SexSymbol]

I'm sorry but no.
I consider Jordan in 98 to have the best performance in a finals series of all time.
But it doesn't matter how you look at it, there were quite a bit of better or same level performances.

[Dray n Klay]

The real question is is Kobe the worst finals performer in NBA History?

[NBAGOAT]

I'm sorry but no.
I consider Jordan in 98 to have the best performance in a finals series of all time.
But it doesn't matter how you look at it, there were quite a bit of better or same level performances.

Jordan had better performances in 91 and 93...

[SexSymbol]

Jordan had better performances in 91 and 93...
he also had much better teams, bulls in 98 had no business to even get to the finals, let alone win them
And the ending to G6 is by far the most clutch performance I've ever witnessed, like not even close.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan had better performances in 91 and 93...

dude said MJ in '98 :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


MJ has FOUR better series' wtf

[Hey Yo]

Jordan had better performances in 91 and 93...
The Suns defense was garbage in 1993......ranked like 19th in the league.

Their objective was the same as the 80's Lakers....the hell with defense, beat you with more offense.

[yarrak]

The answer is no anyway.

**** outta here odunn

[Odinn]

he also had much better teams, bulls in 98 had no business to even get to the finals, let alone win them
And the ending to G6 is by far the most clutch performance I've ever witnessed, like not even close.
Well, I'd rank his 1991 and 1993 performances over 1998. But this is kinda true as well. Jordan made the Bulls champions on sheer will. It wasn't about numbers or something else. The dude just wanted to win. More than anyone else.

[NBAGOAT]

he also had much better teams, bulls in 98 had no business to even get to the finals, let alone win them
And the ending to G6 is by far the most clutch performance I've ever witnessed, like not even close.

with MJ, it's really hard to say he has one clutch performance that stands out. You might be right about winning the Finals but here's no way Indiana was favored vs the Bulls.


The Suns defense was garbage in 1993......ranked like 19th in the league.

Their objective was the same as the 80's Lakers....the hell with defense, beat you with more offense.

The suns were 9th in drtg which is more important considering that the pace in the 93 Finals was around 90 while Suns during the season played at around 100 pace. That one 3OT game does screw it and I'm not calling them even a good defensive team but they weren't bad. I mean if you're going use that to discredit MJ that much, what about the 2012 Finals where OKC was 17th in ppg and 11 in drtg. Before this year, that was definitely Lebron's best Finals and no one really discredits it.

[SexSymbol]

dude said MJ in '98 :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


MJ has FOUR better series' wtf
statistically sure, but you have to look at the context to understand what's better and what's not as good.
Bulls had all kinds of trouble in 98

[SexSymbol]

with MJ, it's really hard to say he has one clutch performance that stands out. You might be right about winning the Finals but here's no way Indiana was favored vs the Bulls.

No doubt Indiana wasn't favored, no team is really gonna get favored against a two time defending champion

[GoSpursGo1984]

No because apparently last year he was. It seems every year he gets there Lebron is having the best Finals ever.

[NBAGOAT]

No doubt Indiana wasn't favored, no team is really gonna get favored against a two time defending champion

well I just brought that up to say they should've made the Finals. Even with the Bulls troubles like Pippen's injuries, I take them over Indiana every time and it's not just because of MJ.

[SexSymbol]

No because apparently last year he was. It seems every year he gets there Lebron is having the best Finals ever.
The funny thing is, his 2012 finals are by far the best he's had so far and nobody bats an eye because this is the box score generation