Where does LeBron rank now all time?

[D.J.]

Before the game(IMO of course)

1)MJ
2)Wilt
3)Kareem
4)Bird
5)Magic
6)Russell
7)Shaq
8)Olajuwon
9)Duncan
10)LeBron


Where does he jump to now?

[Sakkreth]

1.MJ
2.Kareem/LeBron

[DonDadda59]

Cemented himself in the top 7, possibly top 5. Need time to meditate on this.

[ReturnofJPR]

Top 8

[Kiddlovesnets]

I think around 5-7, hes serious challenging Bird for best SF in NBA history, its a toss up now. Still below Magic(rich man's Lebron) and Jordan(the GOAT) for sure.

[SexSymbol]

1.Russell
2.MJ
3.Kareem
4.Bird
5.Magic
6-8.Kobe
6-8.Duncan
6-8.Shaq
9.LeBron
10.Hakeem

[Beastmode88]

He's up there with bird/magic.

[Nilocon165]

Goat Bitches

Goat!!!!!

[VengefulAngel]

Ahead of Bird, Bird literally has no argument against LBJ now.
I have Magic at 4 Lebron 5 Bird 6

[Lebronxrings]

1a. MJ
1b. Lebron

[r0drig0lac]

1- MJ
2- Russ
3- KAJ
4- Wilt
5-9 Duncan/Lebron/Shaq/Magic/Bird
10- Kobe

[scandisk_]

Brans resume is better than Wilt

so he replaces him 3-5 range IMO.

First title to CLE beating 73-9 team under 1-3 deficit

This is HISTORIC

[PP34Deuce]

If you take accolades, dominant play, team success, he's in that top 5-7.

I always had Lebron at 8-9 but he's easily over several ATG's now.

[Hulk]

Top 6

[Trollsmasher]

1a. MJ
1b. Lebron
this

[Asukal]

Anywhere from 7-10, one more ring he'll crack the top 6. :applause:

[Finger Roll]

Ahead of Bird, Bird literally has no argument against LBJ now.
I have Magic at 4 Lebron 5 Bird 6

this.

[SpaceJam]

Top 5 LOCKED
Top 3 arguable

[PJR]

He's on the island with Kareem and Jordan. If he can win a couple more, GOAT can be an actual discussion.

[oh the horror]

Cemented himself in the top 7, possibly top 5. Need time to meditate on this.




This. I think 4-7 range is fair.

[Keno]

he's top 3 behind Jordan and kaj. Currently

[oh the horror]

He's on the island with Kareem and Jordan. If he can win a couple more, GOAT can be an actual discussion.



How is GOAT become a discussion? Are people forgetting his entire career? You don't become goat when you've lost on multiple occasions. That shouldn't happen.

[Rocketswin2013]

He's possibly top 3 all-time IMHO. It'll take a while to be able to weather through the hype and the insanity of this actually happening. Just to take a step back and objectively look at it. But I really only definitely take Jordan over him after him pulling this shit.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I have no idea why OP has Kobe not on the list and Olajuwon over Duncan.

My list,

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Russell
4) Kareem
5) Duncan
6) Wilt
7a) LeBron (Kobe was gifted some really good teams and once LeBron was given "good" teams he made 6 finals in a row and won 3. LeBron's 2013 squad was probably the most stacked from top to bottom between the two players)
7b) Kobe
8) Shaq
9) Bird
10) Olajuwon (I will never understand why this guy is so overrated, his career stats aren't even that great. He had a few insane years but a lot of years where you can kind of feel he underperformed).

[midatlantic09]

I'd put him in the 3-5 range all-time. Not sure of exactly where in that 3-5, though.

[Random_Guy]

How is GOAT become a discussion? Are people forgetting his entire career? You don't become goat when you've lost on multiple occasions. That shouldn't happen.
no other team has beaten a 70 win team in the entire history of the nba

[kamil]

1a. MJ
1b. Lebron

:no:

6/6 > 3/7

[beastee]

5-7.

The greatness of the top 5 is so immense.

He will be 3-5 with one more finals win for sure.

[kamil]

no other team has beaten a 70 win team in the entire history of the nba

That's nice... but MJ *WAS* the 70+ win team.

[PJR]

How is GOAT become a discussion? Are people forgetting his entire career? You don't become goat when you've lost on multiple occasions. That shouldn't happen.

I said if he wins a couple more. Reading is fundamental, dweeb.

[FKAri]

He's between Bird and Magic for me. So borderline top 5.

[Im Still Ballin]

Top 5 Undisputed

Good case for top 3

[catzhernandez]

So dumb having Wilt at two...

Anyways, it would be something like...

1. Mike
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem
5. LeBron
6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaq
9. Wilt
10. Kobe

[D.J.]

IMO, Bron is now #4. He's surpassed Bird and even Magic. If he does ever surpass Kareem, it's gonna take several years.

[Magic 32]

I don't have him in the top 6 (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird). The immortal Six.

So he is now in the 7-10 range (with Kobe, Duncan, Shaq).

On my list he is better than Hakeem and Oscar now.

[SexSymbol]

Zero argument over mj, kareem and Russell.
Practically none over Magic and Bird.
Duncan and Kobe played against much better competition and won more, Duncan won 2 out of 3 times against james himself.
The closest is Shaq, he gets one more ring and he's in the tier of Kobe/duncan/magic/bird

[Lebron23]

He's on the island with Kareem and Jordan. If he can win a couple more, GOAT can be an actual discussion.

This

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. James

[Velocirap31]

This is going to be an absolute gold mine for him endorsement wise. He'll have his face on anything Ohio related and be handed the keys to the city.

[Keno]

i.thomas just said lebron is top 3 with jordan and kaj, as I said. :rockon:

[plowking]

Top 5 for me before and after. Not sure where exactly. Doesn't matter too much.

[catzhernandez]

People still grossly overrate Wilt... Smh

[Im Still Ballin]

That was literally the most valuable ring for a superstar ever

He's top 5 no questions asked

top 3 is very arguable

[Keno]

I don't have him in the top 6 (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird). The immortal Six.

So he is now in the 7-10 range (with Kobe, Duncan, Shaq).

On my list he is better than Hakeem and Oscar now.

the greatest sf all time isn't above the 2nd greatest sf on the all time list??? Where's your logic. and stop it, he's better than magic and wilt, russell has a bunch of 8 team rings

[Cold soul]

I don't have him in the top 6 (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird). The immortal Six.

So he is now in the 7-10 range (with Kobe, Duncan, Shaq).

On my list he is better than Hakeem and Oscar now.

Well said. This is the correct answer.

[NumberSix]

Same as before. Top 4.

[ImKobe]

#1

there's no one better

[KyrieTheFuture]

Zero argument over mj, kareem and Russell.
Practically none over Magic and Bird.
Duncan and Kobe played against much better competition and won more, Duncan won 2 out of 3 times against james himself.
The closest is Shaq, he gets one more ring and he's in the tier of Kobe/duncan/magic/bird
Sure if you consider the the Dwight Howard Magic, 07 cavs, 05 pistons, Nets, AI sixers, and the shitty Pacers better competition. They won some of the easiest titles in history.

[Fudge]

Lol @ clowns placing him out of the top 5.

He's AT LEAST in the top 5. Top 3 is more likely.

To me, he's the greatest basketball player that i've ever seen. His career resume just hasn't stacked up to only two players in history (Jordan and KAJ) That's about it.

[Roundball_Rock]

1) KAJ
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) LeBron
5) Shaq
6) Russell
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

He is clearly top 5 all-time now. He arguably is already top 3, although that is a bit of a stretch. The big question is where he is when he finishes. He is clear top 5 at age 31. Can he finish with a strong case for GOAT?

[plowking]

1) KAJ
2) MJ
3) Wilt
4) LeBron
5) Shaq
6) Russell
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

He is clearly top 5 all-time now. He arguably is already top 3, although that is a bit of a stretch. The big question is where he is when he finishes. He is clear top 5 at age 31. Can he finish with a strong case for GOAT?

I can see the case above Shaq, but I also can't. Shaq was as dominant and good at his peak, if not better, has longevity on Bron so far, and has more championships. Bron does have more MVP's though.

[SexSymbol]

Lol @ clowns placing him out of the top 5.

He's AT LEAST in the top 5. Top 3 is more likely.

To me, he's the greatest basketball player that i've ever seen. His career resume just hasn't stacked up to only two players in history (Jordan and KAJ) That's about it.
he literally has no case over Russell

[francesco totti]

Number 2 is locked, he is chasing Jordan.

[Cold soul]

Anywhere from 5-8 he moves past Oscar, Hakeem, and Bird for me.

[Fudge]

1st tier: Jordan, Kareem, LeBron

2nd tier: Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Bird

3rd tier: Wilt, Russell, Hakeem

[pauk]

Before he was right next to Bird but under him, now he has taken a whole step beyond... Top 3-5... with his accolades and context of play... with this damn ridicilous significant-meaningfull championship run added to his legacy.. huge... just huge... he is nowhere under top 5.... it will just take some time for everybody to soak this shit in, that what actually just happened really happened...

[impulze]

Number 2 is locked, he is chasing Jordan.
I can't believe how someone with a great username like that makes a dumb post like this.

[Jacks3]

I had him top 5-6 before this series and that's where I have him now.

[Prime_Shaq]

Top 4-7 for me rn.

[Quickening]

He is hovering around the top 3-5 mark at the moment, if he doesn't win another fmvp/championship but stays healthy for the next 3 years, he will cement top 3 due to longevity.

[NBASTATMAN]

DEF TOP 5 ALL TIME... UNREAL COMPLETE GAME:bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

I can see the case above Shaq, but I also can't. Shaq was as dominant and good at his peak, if not better, has longevity on Bron so far, and has more championships. Bron does have more MVP's though.

What puts LeBron over Shaq for me is LeBron's much longer reign as the best player in the game but I think Shaq--as of today--still has a case over LeBron. I don't think he will by the time LeBron retires. LeBron will be in the first-tier of guys with strong GOAT cases (i.e. KAJ, MJ, Wilt, Russell. Russell is lower on my list but he has a strong GOAT case based on a criteria that heavily weighs winning). He will be a cut above Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe types.

[Young X]

I don't really have a list but wherever Magic Johnson is he's right around there. Ahead of Bird, ahead of Kobe, ahead of Hakeem.

[kamil]

1st tier: Jordan

2nd tier: Kareem

3rd tier: Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Bird

4th tier: Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, LeBron*

I agree.

[Lebron23]

i.thomas just said lebron is top 3 with jordan and kaj, as I said. :rockon:


Will LeBron and Irving play in the 2016 Olympics?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron showed me a lot this series, and had another great ALL around performance tonight (not just random EMPTY stat-padding). That block on Iguodala was absolutely incredible.

Anyway, I would throw him somewhere in my top 5. Still have MJ and KAJ > but he's debatable with just about everyone else.

[Odinn]

1a. Jordan
1b. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Shaq or LeBron
5. LeBron or Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Chamberlain
9. Magic
10. Hakeem or Kobe
11. Kobe or Hakeem
12. Moses

I'd not say lock, but top 5 seems accurate for him right now. I don't think he can reach Jordan's level due to winning record in the Finals. But if he can keep delivering, he can get a better case for top 3. Or even case over Kareem.

[Bankaii]

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Russell
5-6) Lebron/Shaq
7) Wilt
8) Duncan
9-10) Bird/Kobe

[GrapeApe]

He's in the discussion for top 5.

[DMAVS41]

He did something I didn't think was possible...and overcame his inept shooting for a long enough stretch.

He's now officially the 2nd best perimeter player ever. I don't see how one can take anyone but MJ on the perimeter over him.

Again...honestly did not think that was possible with his broken jumper.

Tip of the cap to him...could not be more impressed

[plowking]

Crazy how Duncan is no where near peoples top 5 in these lists. Another guy that gets forgotten.

[pmj]

Not sure how he can not be in the top 5, but 7 at worst.

I think it's very reasonable to put him #3 or #4 over Magic/Bird now as he has both peak play and longevity going for him and looking to continue. His consistent success of making any team contenders and ridiculous stats are just too much. His biggest moments aren't as unblemished as others for sure, but he has some of his own and when you add everything together it's hard to argue.

[Odinn]

Crazy how Duncan is no where near peoples top 5 in these lists. Another guy that gets forgotten.
I wouldn't say forgotten. Even after his 5th ring, I said Duncan was at 5-8 range. The claims were about Duncan being over Kareem at the time which was ridicilous. Sure, Duncan has a case against anyone but Jordan and Kareem. But that doesn't mean he deserves to be in the top 5.

[pmj]

He did something I didn't think was possible...and overcame his inept shooting for a long enough stretch.

He's now officially the 2nd best perimeter player ever. I don't see how one can take anyone but MJ on the perimeter over him.

Again...honestly did not think that was possible with his broken jumper.

Tip of the cap to him...could not be more impressed

I kind of viewed it the same way... Magic & Bird might have had some great individual moments better than his but with the totality of everything he's done, there isn't another perimeter player you would want for their careers. So it's MJ and however you want to rank the bigs in with him. Duncan's not as dominant and has benefited from the organization, Shaq was better peak and arguable, KAJ really only one still there ahead of him I'd say for sure. Hard to not be top 5.

[Noob Saibot]

No doubt top 10. Top 5 too.

[DMAVS41]

I kind of viewed it the same way... Magic & Bird might have had some great individual moments better than his but with the totality of everything he's done, there isn't another perimeter player you would want for their careers. So it's MJ and however you want to rank the bigs in with him. Duncan's not as dominant and has benefited from the organization, Shaq was better peak and arguable, KAJ really only one still there ahead of him I'd say for sure. Hard to not be top 5.

My top 5 going into this season (obviously I rank KAJ differently than most)

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Duncan
5. KAJ

I can't believe it because a few days ago I thought Lebron's huge flaw (his inept shooting and unwillingness to shoot) that has cost him time and time again...was going to yet again. I said he was over-rated being put top 3.

But then something truly special and historic happened...and nothing else much to say.

What Lebron just did in those 3 games overall...it just vaults him up the all time list on par with just about anyone I saw play for me (didn't see Russell or Wilt)

He's as good or better than every player I've ever seen other than MJ...flaws and all.

Respect.

[Lebron23]

Crazy how Duncan is no where near peoples top 5 in these lists. Another guy that gets forgotten.


His numbers ain't better than Kareem, and Magic Johnson. No disrespect to Duncan, but he was a solid 2nd scoring options in their last 2 NBA titles.

[plowking]

He's as good or better than every player I've ever seen other than MJ...flaws and all.

Respect.

I'll just say he has always been as good as MJ. He has always been a big game player. People might start to realize it now.

He isn't ranked as high as him obviously, but he is every bit the player MJ was.

[Indian guy]

He easily has a top 5 resume now. And the only player with a better combination of rings, mvps, fmps and statistics is MJ. LeBron will now, and for the rest of his career, be talked about as 2nd only to him.

[Ben Simmons]

I'll just say he has always been as good as MJ. He has always been a big game player. People might start to realize it now.

He isn't ranked as high as him obviously, but he is every bit the player MJ was.
No he's not.

Honestly Lebron is just as good as any player other than Jordan. Has the FMVP and MVPs to prove it.

Jordan is on another level.

[DMAVS41]

I'll just say he has always been as good as MJ. He has always been a big game player. People might start to realize it now.

He isn't ranked as high as him obviously, but he is every bit the player MJ was.

Really disagree, but not gonna go down that rabbit hole tonight.

[Odinn]

His numbers ain't better than Kareem, and Magic Johnson. No disrespect to Duncan, but he was a solid 2nd scoring options in their last 2 NBA titles.
LOL. Obvious agenda hasn't changed a bit. Grats.:facepalm

[KingBeasley08]

Top 5 right now. I could even argue 3rd behind MJ and KAJ

[Ben Simmons]

The funny thing is how people are gonna react if Lebron starts winning sidekick rings. Every other top 10 player has them except Jordan.

[greymatter]

Arguably ahead of Bird and Magic now. 5th behind Russell, Wilt, MJ, Kareem.

[Odinn]

The funny thing is how people are gonna react if Lebron starts winning sidekick rings. Every other top 10 player has them except Jordan.
Bird and Hakeem didn't win sidekick rings.

[impulze]

I'll just say he has always been as good as MJ. He has always been a big game player. People might start to realize it now.

He isn't ranked as high as him obviously, but he is every bit the player MJ was.
Always interesting to see the opinion of people on that matter who never saw MJ play.

[Magic 32]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird

7-10

Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan

It will take longer to decide 7-10 for me. If Lebron losses 2-3 more finals he will rank behind Duncan and Kobe for me.

[KiiiiNG]

1. MJ/LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt/Russell
6. Bird/Magic
8. Shaq

[InsanityKills]

1. MJ/LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt/Russell
6. Bird/Magic
8. Shaq
This is pretty close to my Top-5.:applause:

[plowking]

Always interesting to see the opinion of people on that matter who never saw MJ play.

Great post.

[Mr Feeny]

1. MJ/LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt/Russell
6. Bird/Magic
8. Shaq

That's close to most people's lists now.

[AlphaWolf24]

I know This....

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bird , Hakeem, Russell, Robertson

[Cold soul]

I know This....

Lebron>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bird , Hakeem, Russell, Robertson

Agreed. :applause:

[DirkNowitzki41]

top 5 at worst. I hate to sound like a dick, but youre a hater if you say otherwise.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron easily top 5 and climbing.. Will finish #2 behind MJ with an argument that he is the Greatest OVERALL player cause of passing, Rebounding big plays on Defense ect..

[CAstill]

Top 6 -8 now. With top 5 arguable.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He did something I didn't think was possible...and overcame his inept shooting for a long enough stretch.

He's now officially the 2nd best perimeter player ever. I don't see how one can take anyone but MJ on the perimeter over him.

Again...honestly did not think that was possible with his broken jumper.

Tip of the cap to him...could not be more impressed
Totally agree with this. I think he'll go down as top 3 ever. Always maintained that belief. Really happy for the city of Cleveland tonight and this one felt WAY more earned than his rings in Miami to me.

[Cold soul]

Top 6 -8 now. With top 5 arguable.

What's your current ranking look like?

[JtotheIzzo]

MJ
KAJ
LBJ
Russ, Wilt, Bird, Magic
Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Haleem, Robertson

LBJ created his own tier in one week.

You could put him with KAJ but body of work for KAJ is still too much.

That is your top twelve ladies and gents.

[Remix]

as high as 3, as low as 6.

[red1]

2nd GOAT when all is said and done

[ArbitraryWater]

Its Jordan/James/Jabbar.... thats the top 3.

[Remix]

Its Jordan/James/Jabbar.... thats the top 3.
only you lebron fam guys have lebron at 2.

[Bigsmoke]

6th

[SamuraiSWISH]

only you lebron fam guys have lebron at 2.
I'm a Jordan guy and I have him at #3 but the ceiling he's likely to reach is #2.

[tmacattack33]

He's at around number 5 if he retires tomorrow.

Two more top 3 seasons (if he is still top 3 in 2018, this would mean he will have had at least 12 or 13 straight top 3 seasons...amazing) and couple more good playoff runs, getting to at least the ECF a few more times, and he's knocking on the door for top 3.

So, I'm pretty sure he'll be top 3 next year and the following year, unless there's some major injury. So i'm looking forward to putting this guy on a bball GOATs poster with MJ and Kareem someday soon.

[Keno]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird

7-10

Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan

It will take longer to decide 7-10 for me. If Lebron losses 2-3 more finals he will rank behind Duncan and Kobe for me.
:roll: you aren't fooling/trolling anyone. notice how everyone in this thread/legends are saying top 5 worst, or top 3 other than you, kobe stans, haters? :roll: stop it, you're wasting time. any knowledgable non troll gonna have Lebron top 5

[Keno]

if I remember, Lebron is gonna move up on all time rankings for a bunch of regular season stats next year too. 2nd all time/possible goat incoming.

[Graviton]

Right now he is easily Top 5, his accolades alone put him there. Then you add the peak play, amazing prime, consistency and elimination game performances, no way there are 5 better players with that kinda impact. Jordan, Shaq, Kareem at best. I would have James 4th, if he wins another ring next year with another FMVP, easily Top 3 after.

I doubt he will ever pass Jordan though.

[Springsteen]

It will take longer to decide 7-10 for me. If Lebron losses 2-3 more finals he will rank behind Duncan and Kobe for me.

Having Duncan that low

AND

The fact that you would DROP Lebron in your rankings for making more finals

http://i.imgur.com/edEgclW.gif

[3ball]

I doubt he will ever pass Jordan though


If Lebron fans could choose between Lebron getting 40+ points, 15+ rebounds or 10+ assists (they can only choose one), they would choose 40+ points most of the time.

So POINTS are the most important thing a #1 option does.. Think about it - Lebron won these Finals by producing back-to-back 40 point games, but he only has 15 playoff games in his career with 40+ points (1 every 14 games), compared to Jordan's 38 games of 40+ points (1 every 3.8 games).





I doubt he will ever pass Jordan though


For their playoff careers, Jordan scored nearly 6 ppg more than Lebron with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) and clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438582&postcount=24) - that's worth more than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more on better efficiency that wasn't considered the far better player.





I doubt he will ever pass Jordan though


Jordan's scoring advantage is even bigger than people realize - Lebron has many series (even an entire playoff run) where he wasn't his team's leading scorer.. Otoh, MJ is the ONLY all-time great to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did it by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) (let that sink in)..

MJ also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest performance and biggest load ever carried.

[tmacattack33]

If Lebron fans could choose between Lebron getting 40+ points, 15+ rebounds or 10+ assists (they can only choose one), they would choose 40+ points most of the time.

So POINTS are the most important thing a #1 option does.. Think about it - Lebron won these Finals by producing back-to-back 40 point games, but he only has 15 playoff games in his career with 40+ points (1 every 14 games), compared to Jordan's 38 games of 40+ points (1 every 3.8 games).



For their playoff careers, Jordan scored nearly 6 ppg more than Lebron with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) and clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438582&postcount=24) - that's worth more than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more ppg on better efficiency that wasn't considered the far better player.



Jordan's scoring advantage is even bigger than people realize - Lebron has many series (even an entire playoff run) where he wasn't his team's leading scorer.. Otoh, MJ is the ONLY all-time great to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did it by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) (let that sink in)..

MJ also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest performance and biggest load ever carried.

Oh boy, not this guy again :oldlol:


I don't have time for your sh*t today :lol I'm sure i'll see you in one of your MJ vs Lebron threads in the summer.

[Quickening]

Its also a huge win because it means he has won fmvps/championships with two teams, and a rookie coach.

It means something extra when you can do it with two different set of players, different coaches, different organisations.

[raprap]

He's in my top 5 now.

[Carbine]

LeBron' ceiling is 2nd all time and his floor is Magic/Bird grouping.

[NBASTATMAN]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird

7-10

Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan

It will take longer to decide 7-10 for me. If Lebron losses 2-3 more finals he will rank behind Duncan and Kobe for me.


THIS GUY HAS TOTALLY MELTED DOWN :roll: :cry:

[LilEddyCurry]

MJ
Kareem
Wilt/Russell
Wilt/Russell
Magic
LeBron
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem

[OmniStrife]

Top 5 LOCKED
Top 3 arguable
This

[Carbine]

Duncan:

5 titles
3 FMVP
2 RS MVP
15 All NBA Team Selections (10 first team, 3 second team, 2 third team)
15 All-Defense selection (8 first team, 7 second team)


LeBron:

3 tites
3 FMVP
4 RS MVP
12 All-NBA Selections (10 first team, 2 second team)
6 All-NBA Defense (5 first team, 1 second team)

Tell me again what LeBron has done to separate himself from Duncan as it stands right now?

Shaq the same way. LeBron will most likely end up with better careers than those two at some point - he's only 31 years old - but it hasn't happened yet.

[Gougou]

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Lebron
Wilt

This is my top 5 now I think.

But at all cost LeBron James now surpassed Bird.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Same place he was before the 2016 Finals - 2nd GOAT


Duncan:

5 titles
3 FMVP
2 RS MVP
15 All NBA Team Selections (10 first team, 3 second team, 2 third team)
15 All-Defense selection (8 first team, 7 second team)


LeBron:

3 tites
3 FMVP
4 RS MVP
12 All-NBA Selections (10 first team, 2 second team)
6 All-NBA Defense (5 first team, 1 second team)

Tell me again what LeBron has done to separate himself from Duncan as it stands right now?

Jesus, this tired, old, unthoughtful sh*t again. Cuz he's a better f*cking player? Resume aint everything, brah. Robert Horry is surefire HoFer, then. :facepalm

[Carbine]

Same place he was before the 2016 Finals - 2nd GOAT


Jesus, this tired, old, unthoughtful sh*t again. Cuz he's a better f*cking player? Resume aint everything, brah. Robert Horry is surefire HoFer, then. :facepalm

Robert Horry has titles as a role player - not four as the man like Duncan with one other as a 1.b or 2nd best player. Or Shaq with 3 as the man with 1 sidekick.

I've seen all three of Shaq, Duncan and LeBron in their primes - you won't find many people who seen Shaq at his peak say LeBron was a more impact player.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Robert Horry has titles as a role player - not four as the man like Duncan with one other as a 1.b or 2nd best player. Or Shaq with 3 as the man with 1 sidekick.

I've seen all three of Shaq, Duncan and LeBron in their primes - you won't find many people who seen Shaq at his peak say LeBron was a more impact player.
so the criteria changed now? What exactly are we defining? Most impactful? Most dominant? Best resume? Least reliant on other players? Most skilled?

ppl praise Duncan just for his f*cking resume. He's great, yeah, but no way he'd have that resume if he went to the Raptors or Nuggets; or if he didn't have Pop + Manu + Tony + Admiral. Dude can't carry a team himself.

Just ask yourself this. What dominating all-world legend's game wows you the most? Duncan? F*cking please.

[Carbine]

The only thing that matters is impact. Skills allow you to impact the game, but their are other things as well that contribute to your impact. Basketball IQ, physical talent, etc.

Impact is the word I use to encompass how good a player is at helping his team win. Impact is anything from a great close out, deflections, iso buckets, fast break assists, traffic rebounds, great rotations, tip out offensive rebounds, defensive shot alterations, etc.

When Love got switched onto Curry and forced Curry into a horrific shot - that's impact.

Dude can't carry a team by himself but that's basically what he did in 2003 - must not have been flashy enough for you I suppose or maybe you weren't born then.

[ArbitraryWater]

Fcking Duncan?? Are you people serious?? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LeBird]

Duncan isn't in the same zipcode as Lebron. He's outside that GOAT tier.

[DMAVS41]

so the criteria changed now? What exactly are we defining? Most impactful? Most dominant? Best resume? Least reliant on other players? Most skilled?

ppl praise Duncan just for his f*cking resume. He's great, yeah, but no way he'd have that resume if he went to the Raptors or Nuggets; or if he didn't have Pop + Manu + Tony + Admiral. Dude can't carry a team himself.

Just ask yourself this. What dominating all-world legend's game wows you the most? Duncan? F*cking please.

What does this mean? Who wows you the most?

People praise Duncan just for his resume?

Just no...he's on the short list of best two way player ever. He was absolutely dominant and did so in a way that allowed his teammates to play at an optimal level. He could play any style and had an elite impact off the ball on both ends.

This is a player that averaged 24/13/4 56% TS over a 10 year stretch with elite defense in the playoffs....and led his team to 4 titles in that span.

Duncan's skill, leadership, and franchise first mentality is what makes him an all time great. He's simply one of the best players ever in terms of his impact on the game...regardless of accomplishments.

Is Lebron better? I really don't know who wins more with equal supporting casts over their first 13 years...Duncan was way better early in his career than Lebron was, but Lebron in years 11, 12, and 13 for him is way better than Duncan was.

I'd probably go with Lebron at this point because it's pretty obvious the dude is going to be an elite player for at least the next 3 years...barring injury...and that is unprecedented.

But it's close...Lebron isn't winning this argument because he was much better in terms of impact imo...he'll win it on longevity of being an elite player. Which is fine, but lets tap the brakes on the notion that peak Duncan doesn't have an argument with peak Lebron. He absolutely does.

[Doranku]

Not sure, although it is painful to admit that he has surpassed Kobe tonight. A case for top 5 can definitely be made.

[PJR]

Duncan isn't in the same zipcode as Lebron. He's outside that GOAT tier.

Don't be ridiculous. You sound stupid. Duncan's resume can go up against anyone.

[NBAGOAT]

4-5 ish imo. I'm seriously tempted to move him above Magic for 4.

[Doranku]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?

[Wade's Rings]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?

'00-'04 Shaq?

[SouBeachTalents]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?

I'd honestly say LeBron's '09-'13 was more impressive

[Ben Simmons]

I'd honestly say LeBron's '09-'13 was more impressive
Easily. But 2011 is in there

[DMAVS41]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?

Not sure.

Shaq from 00-04 and Duncan from 03-07 are up there...

[ArbitraryWater]

Not sure.

Shaq from 00-04 and Duncan from 03-07 are up there...

Last 2 yrs of Bron are just so much better than '04 Shaq or '06-'07 Duncan... outside of '03 Duncan, I wouldnt take too many of his versions over LeBron '09-'16, but if you look for Duncan's best 5-year stretch, take '01-'05, please.

[Dray n Klay]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?

I'm going with '12-'16 Kobe

[NBAGOAT]

Not sure.

Shaq from 00-04 and Duncan from 03-07 are up there...

yes on shaq but it're more like 98-02. Duncan's prime is quite good but don't think it's MJ, Shaq's, Lebron's, or a few other guys.

[Ben Simmons]

Has anyone not named Jordan had a more impressive 5-year stretch than LeBron '12-16?
No. Honestly outside of 2015, where he declined this is the most easily as good as any player.

[Dray n Klay]

Duncan won a FMVP in 2005 shooting 20ppg on 41 FG% :oldlol:


I find it funny how DMAVS41 rips LeBron for his 36ppg on 40% last year, but Duncans 20ppg on 41% in 2005 is celebrated just cause he got the FMVP?



LeBrons FMVPs are more impressive than Duncans



LeBron is the better regular season player

LeBron is the better postseason player

LeBron is the better Finals performer (5 great Finals vs 2 for Duncan)


LeBron > Duncan

[DMAVS41]

Last 2 yrs of Bron are just so much better than '04 Shaq or '06-'07 Duncan... outside of '03 Duncan, I wouldnt take too many of his versions over LeBron '09-'16, but if you look for Duncan's best 5-year stretch, take '01-'05, please.

I didn't know how he was doing it...in terms of play...or play combined with winning?

I thought he was talking more about winning 3 titles...2 MVP's...etc.

Also, Duncan in 06 and 07 gets absurdly under-rated here.

[NBAGOAT]

I didn't know how he was doing it...in terms of play...or play combined with winning?

I thought he was talking more about winning 3 titles...2 MVP's...etc.

Also, Duncan in 06 and 07 gets absurdly under-rated here.

Duncan 07 sure. He had a down year in 06 however even if he was great in the postseason.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan won a FMVP in 2005 shooting 20ppg on 41 FG% :oldlol:


I find it funny how DMAVS41 rips LeBron for his 36ppg on 40% last year, but Duncans 20ppg on 41% in 2005 is celebrated just cause he got the FMVP?



LeBrons FMVPs are more impressive than Duncans



LeBron is the better regular season player

LeBron is the better postseason player

LeBron is the better Finals performer (5 great Finals vs 2 for Duncan)


LeBron > Duncan

They are completely different players though. Duncan's efficiency matters less because not only does he dominate the ball less and allow his teammates to play optimally around him, but first and foremost...he was an all time great defender.

You have to compare guys at what they do.

I also haven't ripped Lebron's efficiency overall...he's a very efficient player outside of last years playoffs actually. I've ripped his range shooting...which is a definite flaw in Lebron's game, but have to give him credit for overcoming it enough and winning this year. I did not think that was possible.

[DMAVS41]

yes on shaq but it're more like 98-02. Duncan's prime is quite good but don't think it's MJ, Shaq's, Lebron's, or a few other guys.

I'd have to know how you are defining primes...

Duncan had a pretty insane 10 year prime imo...to the tune of something like 24/13/4 56% TS with all time elite defense in the playoffs.

I'm not sure Lebron's 07 to 16 separates itself much here to be honest.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

...
look man, I can pick apart your post like:



Impact is the word I use to encompass how good a player is at helping his team win. Impact is anything from a great close out, deflections, iso buckets, fast break assists, traffic rebounds, great rotations, tip out offensive rebounds, defensive shot alterations, etc.
so just hustle and iso ability = greatness? err, sorry, being impactful? I mean, I guess I can agree that stuff is impactful. And being impactful is important, I wouldn't want someone who doesn't hustle on my team. But I'm not sure how it got shifted from you weighing resume to now weighing impact (as if LeBron has less impact than Duncan? again, f*cking please). It's a shame Rodmon didn't have any iso skills. Draymond better work on his post skills and triple threat moves, he can be GOAT impact player.



Dude can't carry a team by himself but that's basically what he did in 2003 - must not have been flashy enough for you I suppose or maybe you weren't born then.
You've brought up twice now your age or something similar, as if it matters. I've been watching the NBA since the 80s, since it seems to be important to you for some reason. But back to TDunc. Yeah, MVP, I know. Transition from Admiral to Manu+Tony (while having arguably the best collection of role players around him). He's great, like I said. You still seem to forget he had the greatest coach in NBA history behind him. A coach who could coach a D-League team to 40 wins in the NBA.

Anyway, I won't do that. We'll just have to come to an impasse.


...
god, again. Yeah, TDunc led his team to the titles...w/ the help of GOAT coach and 2-3 other HoFers.

Put Duncan in any mediocre situation during his career and he's probably just another Karl Malone. Put LeBron on the Spurs - w/o Duncan sure - and he'd have 3-5 titles. Put Duncan on pre-2010 Cavs and they probably hover around .500 maybe win a playoff series or 2. Put LeBron on the pre-2010 Cavs and...well, Finals appearance, multiple 50-60+ wins, etc.

I'm not saying Duncan isn't great. He just got lucky to be in a great situation, too. W/o it, he could easily just be another great ring-less PF like Malone or Barkley.

[fourkicks44]

Legit argument for number 2 right now. Hate to admit it but facts are facts.

[LeBird]

Don't be ridiculous. You sound stupid. Duncan's resume can go up against anyone.

That's if you're stupid enough to judge someone on paper as opposed to what happened and how they played. Duncan's been carried the 2nd half of his career. He's in the top 10, but the GOAT tier guys are that much ahead that it shouldn't even be a comparison. Someone made a Karl Malone comparison and it is apt.


Duncan's efficiency matters less because not only does he dominate the ball less and allow his teammates to play optimally around him, but first and foremost...he was an all time great defender.

This is unadulterated nonsense. Efficiency always matters, especially when you're a big and you're nearer to the basket.

[Fiasco]

7th, behind Duncan.

[JohnFreeman]

Top 5 easily

[DMAVS41]

look man, I can pick apart your post like:


so just hustle and iso ability = greatness? err, sorry, being impactful? I mean, I guess I can agree that stuff is impactful. And being impactful is important, I wouldn't want someone who doesn't hustle on my team. But I'm not sure how it got shifted from you weighing resume to now weighing impact (as if LeBron has less impact than Duncan? again, f*cking please). It's a shame Rodmon didn't have any iso skills. Draymond better work on his post skills and triple threat moves, he can be GOAT impact player.


You've brought up twice now your age or something similar, as if it matters. I've been watching the NBA since the 80s, since it seems to be important to you for some reason. But back to TDunc. Yeah, MVP, I know. Transition from Admiral to Manu+Tony (while having arguably the best collection of role players around him). He's great, like I said. You still seem to forget he had the greatest coach in NBA history behind him. A coach who could coach a D-League team to 40 wins in the NBA.

Anyway, I won't do that. We'll just have to come to an impasse.


god, again. Yeah, TDunc led his team to the titles...w/ the help of GOAT coach and 2-3 other HoFers.

Put Duncan in any mediocre situation during his career and he's probably just another Karl Malone. Put LeBron on the Spurs - w/o Duncan sure - and he'd have 3-5 titles. Put Duncan on pre-2010 Cavs and they probably hover around .500 maybe win a playoff series or 2. Put LeBron on the pre-2010 Cavs and...well, Finals appearance, multiple 50-60+ wins, etc.

I'm not saying Duncan isn't great. He just got lucky to be in a great situation, too. W/o it, he could easily just be another great ring-less PF like Malone or Barkley.

Duncan's ability wouldn't change with a different situation...he would always have been better than Karl Malone.

You could play this game with any player though.

What did Lebron ever accomplish without loaded teams with multiple all star caliber players? Means nothing as Lebron is one of the best players ever, but nobody wins alone. Lebron needed an all time great in Wade...and Kyrie just destroyed the first UMVP in NBA history. So please...Lebron isn't out there alone.

Also, your argument falls apart because of 03. Just 25/15/5 58% TS with all time great defense en route to the title....going through Shaq/Kobe without anyone even approaching an all star.

Another Karl Malone? I don't remember Karl ever doing anything close to that...but please...refresh my memory?

[DMAVS41]

That's if you're stupid enough to judge someone on paper as opposed to what happened and how they played. Duncan's been carried the 2nd half of his career. He's in the top 10, but the GOAT tier guys are that much ahead that it shouldn't even be a comparison. Someone made a Karl Malone comparison and it is apt.



This is unadulterated nonsense. Efficiency always matters, especially when you're a big and you're nearer to the basket.

First, you are obviously too young to remember prime Duncan. As this argument is about that...past prime Duncan has no relevance here. He was not Karl Malone in a good situation....damn the ignorance.

This is what we call a straw man. Did I say efficiency doesn't matter? Nope...I said it matters less for Duncan because of the type of player he was and what attributes he had.

Not to mention Duncan's efficiency was hardly bad...he was a 56% TS player for his 10 year prime in the playoffs.

Lebron? 56.9% TS...

So...uhhhhh....what are you talking about again?

[LeBird]

Spurs have always been a system team. They rarely have 2 bonafide stars, Duncan can thank Pop for his rings.


This is what we call a straw man. Did I say efficiency doesn't matter? Nope...I said it matters less for Duncan because of the type of player he was and what attributes he had.

Not to mention Duncan's efficiency was hardly bad...he was a 56% TS player for his 10 year prime in the playoffs.

Lebron? 56.9% TS...

So...uhhhhh....what are you talking about again?


Duncan's efficiency matters more because he is a big you duffer.

[Dray n Klay]

Duncan's ability wouldn't change with a different situation...he would always have been better than Karl Malone.

You could play this game with any player though.

What did Lebron ever accomplish without loaded teams with multiple all star caliber players? Means nothing as Lebron is one of the best players ever, but nobody wins alone. Lebron needed an all time great in Wade...and Kyrie just destroyed the first UMVP in NBA history. So please...Lebron isn't out there alone.

Also, your argument falls apart because of 03. Just 25/15/5 58% TS with all time great defense en route to the title....going through Shaq/Kobe without anyone even approaching an all star.

Another Karl Malone? I don't remember Karl ever doing anything close to that...but please...refresh my memory?


When was LeBrons championship teams 'loaded'? He was never the favourite when he won a championship.



FYI in the 2013 playoffs, LeBrons supporting cast was similar to Duncans in 2003


Wade 15.9 ppg on 45%

Bosh 12ppg on 46%

[DMAVS41]

Spurs have always been a system team. They rarely have 2 bonafide stars, Duncan can thank Pop for his rings.




Duncan's efficiency matters more because he is a big you duffer.

It matters less you dunce...he's not dominating the ball as much as Lebron does...and doesn't need the ball as much as Lebron does.

And Duncan was a better and more impactful defender.

What system did the Spurs run in 03?

[deja vu]

Don't know but definitely better than Kobe.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Also, your argument falls apart because of 03. Just 25/15/5 58% TS with all time great defense en route to the title....going through Shaq/Kobe without anyone even approaching an all star.

Another Karl Malone? I don't remember Karl ever doing anything close to that...but please...refresh my memory?
F*ck dude, drop the 2003 playoff run. We get it. You've brought it up like 5 times already.

As for Malone, you serious? 2x MVP, 12 STRAIGHT YEARS of 27/11 on .530 shooting and probably 3.5+ APG and 1.5 SPG (won't do the math, this sh*t is retarded) after his 1st year in the league. Did you WATCH him play? A true PF who could bash, rebound, play the picknroll/pop, and had a great mid range J. And could play D (3x All D-team).

Seriously, titles-on-resume lovers are f*cking idiots. Malone was great. Barkley was great. Duncan was great. But Duncan had GOAT coach, GOAT system, better role players, etc and he's some f*cking god to you idiots while Malone and Barkley get sh*t on.

:hammerhead:

[JohnFreeman]

Don't know but definitely better than Kobe.
Kobe holding this L with his 2 FMVPs

[DMAVS41]

When was LeBrons championship teams 'loaded'? He was never the favourite when he won a championship.



FYI in the 2013 playoffs, LeBrons supporting cast was similar to Duncans in 2003


Wade 15.9 ppg on 45%

Bosh 12ppg on 46%

What does favorite matter?

The Spurs weren't favorites many years either they won. Unless you are solely talking about the finals which would be silly.

You miss the point...the point is that you can't hate on Duncan for his help and then prop Lebron. Lebron has had 6 straight years playing at least the strength of help Duncan had for many years.

You guys are just obviously very young..and have no idea about Duncan's early years with the Spurs...when the system was "Duncan"

[DMAVS41]

F*ck dude, drop the 2003 playoff run. We get it. You've brought it up like 5 times already.

As for Malone, you serious? 2x MVP, 12 STRAIGHT YEARS of 27/11 on .530 shooting and probably 3.5+ APG and 1.5 SPG (won't do the math, this sh*t is retarded) after his 1st year in the league. Did you WATCH him play? A true PF who could bash, rebound, play the picknroll/pop, and had a great mid range J.

Seriously, trophies-on-resume lovers are f*cking idiots. Malone was great. Barkley was great. Duncan was great. But Duncan had GOAT coach, GOAT system, better role players, etc and he's some f*cking god to you idiots while Malone and Barkley get sh*t on.

:hammerhead:

I'm not shitting on Barkley and Malone...they were just inferior players to Duncan. I knew by 01 that Duncan was better.

I'll ask again...what system did they run in 03? And why couldn't Malone/Barkley accomplish what Duncan did if they were just as good...just once in their careers?

[deja vu]

Kobe holding this L with his 2 FMVPs
4 MVPs, 3 FMVPs >>> 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs

No question.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes, Duncan has the '03 run.. we get it. Nothing else coming close to LeBron's feats? Well no shit.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, Duncan has the '03 run.. we get it. Nothing else coming close to LeBron's feats? Well no shit.

I'm not even arguing Duncan vs Lebron really.

I'm arguing certain points that aren't valid. Like Duncan wouldn't have won without elite supporting casts. 03 destroys that point...hence it's a bad argument.

Also...I really think you guys undervalue Duncan...pretty hugely. Clear that most of you started watching ball around 08.

[CAstill]

4 MVPs, 3 FMVPs >>> 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs

No question.


5 rings, 2 fmvps, 1 mvp >>> 3 rings, 3 fmvps, 4 mvp

[Dray n Klay]

What does favorite matter?

The Spurs weren't favorites many years either they won. Unless you are solely talking about the finals which would be silly.

You miss the point...the point is that you can't hate on Duncan for his help and then prop Lebron. Lebron has had 6 straight years playing at least the strength of help Duncan had for many years.

You guys are just obviously very young..and have no idea about Duncan's early years with the Spurs...when the system was "Duncan"


How can you argue that LeBrons 2013, 2014, 2015 teams were similar to strength to Duncans teams?



In fact, in 2014 itself LeBron DID face Duncan and vastly outplayed him, while Duncan won handily. How can you argue LeBrons help that year was similar to Duncans when he greatly outplayed Duncan and still lost in 5?



The Fact of the matter is that LeBron has had Duncan-level help for only about 3 years and has 3 rings, while Duncan has had great help for atleast a decade, and has 5 rings



3 rings with 3 years of good help is better than 5 rings with 10 years of great help :confusedshrug:




And even when you want to talk about Duncans 'lack' of help, Duncan never had a supporting cast as bad as LeBron in 2007 or 2015

[DMAVS41]

How can you argue that LeBrons 2013, 2014, 2015 teams were similar to strength to Duncans teams?



In fact, in 2014 itself LeBron DID face Duncan and vastly outplayed him, while Duncan won handily. How can you argue LeBrons help that year was similar to Duncans when he greatly outplayed Duncan and still lost in 5?



The Fact of the matter is that LeBron has had Duncan-level help for 3 years and has 3 rings, while Duncan has had great help for atleast a decade, and has 5 rings



3 rings with 3 years of good help is better than 5 rings with 10 years of great help :confusedshrug:


What years for Duncan are you referring to in his prime? I want you to list out the teams from 98 through 08 that you are talking about. We aren't talking about 14 Duncan. My response was solely referencing Duncan's prime. Also, why would you compare an old Duncan to an in prime Lebron? Makes no sense.

So, please, show me all these loaded teams that Duncan had that were so much better than Lebron's help over the last 6 years.

I'll wait...

[SouBeachTalents]

5 rings, 2 fmvps, 1 mvp >>> 3 rings, 3 fmvps, 4 mvp

:lol

[Ben Simmons]

What years for Duncan are you referring to in his prime? I want you to list out the teams from 98 through 08 that you are talking about.

I'll wait...
Why are taking Dray and Klay seriously lol....

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

I'll ask again...what system did they run in 03? And why couldn't Malone/Barkley accomplish what Duncan did if they were just as good...just once in their careers?
Cuz they lacked innovative, genius coaches like Pop? Cuz they didn't have the depth of defensive and shooting roleplayers around them? Cuz they went up against Jordan + Pippen + Phil + better role players and Hakeem + arguably best role playing roster ever? And in Barkley's case, add the 80s Pistons and Celtics...

Anyway, this sh*t is retarded. I'm too old and tired for this. Just like your argument is old and tired. 2003 Duncan, GOAT player ever. He invented basketball actually, you're right, so he must be god, too. K, we're done, you convinced me. Later.

[Fudge]

5 rings, 2 fmvps, 1 mvp >>> 3 rings, 3 fmvps, 4 mvp
LeBron was like two tiers above Kobe prior to this years title. Now he left that rapist in the dust and the comparison shouldn't even be entertained. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Cuz they lacked innovative, genius coaches like Pop? Cuz they didn't have the depth of defensive and shooting roleplayers around them? Cuz they went up against Jordan + Pippen + Phil + better role players and Hakeem + arguably best role playing roster ever? And in Barkley's case, add the 80s Pistons and Celtics...

Anyway, this sh*t is retarded. I'm too old and tired for this. Just like your argument is old and tired. 2003 Duncan, GOAT player ever. He invented basketball actually, you're right, so he must be god, too. K, we're done, you convinced me. Later.

This is what is called waiving the white flag.

Throwing out insults and creating straw men.

Nobody said Malone and Barkley weren't great...they just weren't as good as Duncan. No shame in it...literally 99.999999999% of players ever weren't as good as Duncan. He's one of the 5 or so best players ever.

You'd be spewing the same shit if Barkley and Malone lost to Shaq/Kobe. See...that is what makes what Duncan did special.

Also, you make it sound like my argument is solely 03.

So much more to it. Duncan was a better leader than both of them combined. He was a vastly superior defender than Barkley and clearly better than Malone as well.

You talk about help...act like Sloan and Stockton weren't elite....:facepalm

[livinglegend]

LeBron was like two tiers above Kobe prior to this years title. Now he left that rapist in the dust and the comparison shouldn't even be entertained. :oldlol:

There are still people who are discussing whether Lebron is better than Kobe?:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Dray n Klay]

DMAVS, lets assume 1999-2007 is Duncans prime


Look here

http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png


Duncans 2005 team was better than LeBrons 2011 team



Duncans 2007 team was better than LeBrons 2012


Heck even Duncans 2003 team (which you state was awful) was still better than LeBrons 2014 team


And Even Duncans 1999 team was better than LeBrons 2014



BTW statistically all of Duncans teams was better than LeBrons 2015 (the worst supporting cast)






The trend is clear, Duncan has consistently had better help than LeBron. Sometimes by a large advantage (2005 and 2007)



I'm not sure why you're arguing Duncan ever had to carry a team as bad as the 2014 Heat or 2015 Cavs




And this is even without getting into having a stable franchise like the Spurs, having Greg Popovich probably the greatest coach ever.




Its blindingly obvious that even if you just look at Duncans prime, he had clearly better help than LeBron. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS, lets assume 1999-2007 is Duncans prime


Look here

http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png


Duncans 2005 team was better than LeBrons 2011 team



Duncans 2007 team was better than LeBrons 2012


Heck even Duncans 2003 team (which you state was awful) was still better than LeBrons 2014 team


And Even Duncans 1999 team was better than LeBrons 2014



BTW statistically all of Duncans teams was better than LeBrons 2015 (the worst supporting cast)






The trend is clear, Duncan has consistently had better help than LeBron. Sometimes by a large advantage (2005 and 2007)



I'm not sure why you're arguing Duncan ever had to carry a team as bad as the 2014 Heat or 2015 Cavs




And this is even without getting into having a stable franchise like the Spurs, having Greg Popovich probably the greatest coach ever.




Its blindingly obvious that even if you just look at Duncans prime, he had clearly better help than LeBron. :confusedshrug:

I ever said Duncan won with a team as bad as the 07 Cavs...what?

I said that if you look at 11 through 16...Lebron's help was comparable to the kind of help that Duncan had from 98 through 08.

And I'm not seeing anything different on the list you posted...not that is the end all, be all, but I'm not seeing a huge difference. Especially as some of the years for Duncan aren't on there.

So that is your flaw. You think, oh in 14 Lebron didn't have much help, and while that is true for a team making the finals...the 14 Heat were better than a team like the 01 Spurs imo...or at least it's close.

So you can't just look at the years Duncan made the finals. You have to look at his overall help in that time. And he didn't make the finals every year because his conference was nowhere near as weak as the East has been the last 6 years. And that is what your argument essentially is going to boil down to...you are going to win privilege Lebron for making the finals the last 6 years over Duncan. But that is a flawed way to look at it. Yea...the 15 Cavs with no Love and Kyrie weren't good, but they also didn't win. They made the finals in a joke conference. Something Duncan easily does in his prime with a similar cast based on the evidence at hand.

Finally, I'd argue that Duncan is going to get more out of his teammates in most cases than Lebron would in a similar scenario as Duncan could play with many different styles of players and let them play optimally for the most part. Obviously this isn't true with every type of player of course, but on the whole...his style of play is going to let other guys play more optimally offensively...and his defense cleans up pretty much everything on the other end.

[Young X]

I'm not shitting on Barkley and Malone...they were just inferior players to Duncan. I knew by 01 that Duncan was better.

I'll ask again...what system did they run in 03? And why couldn't Malone/Barkley accomplish what Duncan did if they were just as good...just once in their careers?Barkley and Malone had to go up against Jordan and the Bulls in the finals.

[Dray n Klay]

DMAVS, from 2011-2016, LeBron has had 2 good teams (2011,2012,) and 1 average team (2013) and 2 bad teams (2014, 2015)


From 2001-2007 Duncan has had 3 great teams (2005, 2006, 2007) 2 good teams (2002, 2004) and 2 average teams (2001 ,2003)



Duncans teams were never as bad as 2015 or 2014 for LeBron

[DMAVS41]

Barkley and Malone had to go up against Jordan and the Bulls in the finals.

And Duncan had to go up against Shaq/Kobe the year in question. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS, from 2011-2016, LeBron has had 2 good teams (2011,2012,) and 1 average team (2013) and 2 bad teams (2014, 2015)


From 2001-2007 Duncan has had 3 great teams (2005, 2006, 2007) 2 good teams (2002, 2004) and 2 average teams (2001 ,2003)



Duncans teams were never as bad as 2015 or 2014 for LeBron

When were we only talking about 01 through 07? I said 98 through 08...Duncan's prime. But we can do any years in question...just let me know first please. We can even include Lebron's help in 09/10 if you want....again 09 through 16 is a similar amount of help as Duncan had from 98 through 08 or so overall.

Also, you aren't accounting for the teams that didn't make the finals. Duncan's 01 and 02 teams would be very low on that list.

Like I just got done explaining...you are privileging Lebron for playing in the East. If Lebron played in the West...his 14 and 15 teams never would have made the finals. And they wouldn't be on that list.

Do you understand my point?

[Young X]

And Duncan had to go up against Shaq/Kobe the year in question. :confusedshrug:In 2003? :lol

We're talking about the GOAT here. Those guys had to deal with this guy dropping 40 point games on their teams and having historic performances. Basically snatching the championship away from them.

Duncan never dealt with anything like that in any of his championship runs.

Try to convince me that Barkley's Suns wouldn't have beaten the Nets.

[DMAVS41]

In 2003? :lol

We're talking about the GOAT here. Those guys had to deal with this guy dropping 40 point games on their teams and having historic performances. Basically snatching the championship away from them.

Duncan never dealt with anything like that in any of his championship runs.

Try to convince me that Barkley's Suns wouldn't have beaten the Nets.

I won't try to convince you of that. I don't think Barkley's Suns beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, but that isn't even my point.

My point was twofold;

1. Duncan is better than Barkley and Malone

2. Duncan did not only win championships because of the Spurs system or elite help

Which do you disagree with?

[Young X]

I won't try to convince you of that. I don't think Barkley's Suns beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, but that isn't even my point.

My point was twofold;

1. Duncan is better than Barkley and Malone

2. Duncan did not only win championships because of the Spurs system or elite help

Which do you disagree with?You don't think the Suns would've beaten the 2003 Lakers?

And I don't disagree with either, but Duncan isn't better than those guys because of rings.

In Barkley's and Malone's best opportunities, they had to face a DYNASTY. Duncan had the same trouble against the Lakers until they fell off.

Don't mind me though I'm not following the discussion in here I just disagreed with something in your post.

[DMAVS41]

You don't think the Suns would've beaten the 2003 Lakers?

And I don't disagree with either, but Duncan isn't better than those guys because of rings.

In Barkley's and Malone's best opportunities, they had to face a DYNASTY. Duncan had the same trouble against the Lakers until they fell off.

No...I don't.

Never said he was...my point concerning 2003 was simply that Duncan proved he was capable of winning a title without elite help/system...which they claimed he was a product of.

[DMAVS41]

Dray...

Even going off that list...

05 and 11 are similar...Duncan won, Lebron lost

07 and 12 are similar (edge to Duncan, but again list is not end all)...both won

13 and 99 are similar...both won

03 and 14 are similar...Duncan won, Lebron lost


Duncan didn't make the finals in years his teams would be as low as 15 and 07 by virtue of not playing in a weak conference.

Now, I'll be the first to mention that while Lebron did have a much easier path to the finals...his competition in the finals on the whole was much more difficult.

I'd like to know where the 16 Cavs are on that list, but regardless of where they are, this was a very good and well built team. Lebron did just have a teammate thoroughly outplay the first UMVP in league history while putting up something like 27/4/4 with incredible shot making while hitting the essential game winner by making one of the biggest shots in NBA history. These Cavs are definitely on par with the best teams Duncan had during the time in question.

So I'm just no seeing a huge difference in help...even on that list which again is I'm a bit skeptical of in terms of Lebron not allowing his teammates to play optimally....

[TheImmortal]

Only on geek basketball forums is Duncan considered greater than LeBron or Kobe.. :roll:

[KiiiiNG]

Only on geek basketball forums is Duncan considered greater than LeBron or Kobe.. :roll:
He's definitely better than Kobe, but this LeBron comparison is laughable... Duncan trolls are hilarious

[Nilocon165]

Former ball players are literally calling this guy the greatest to ever play so Top 3 easily. If not then GOAT

[LeBird]

First, you are obviously too young to remember prime Duncan. As this argument is about that...past prime Duncan has no relevance here. He was not Karl Malone in a good situation....damn the ignorance.

This is what we call a straw man. Did I say efficiency doesn't matter? Nope...I said it matters less for Duncan because of the type of player he was and what attributes he had.

Not to mention Duncan's efficiency was hardly bad...he was a 56% TS player for his 10 year prime in the playoffs.

Lebron? 56.9% TS...

So...uhhhhh....what are you talking about again?

What? I'm old enough to watch Larry Bird, nevermind Tim Duncan.

I'm not saying Tim Duncan's post prime career doesn't count, but it shouldn't read x Rings and x FMVP or whatever. That's not an argument. On paper Horry is also better than Duncan. That's why context matters.

Lebron is simply an easy choice over Duncan. The majority, if not all, of GMs and coaches will take Lebron over Duncan.

And you're ignoring the point. The other poster was talking about 41% fg - which you've turned into TS%, conveniently - and your dumbass said it doesn't matter as much for someone like Duncan. When the opposite is true for anyone that even knows a little about basketball. Your bigs should be your most efficient scorers as they have a physical and spatial advantage.

Efficiency is not about time in possession but overall possessions. Meaning, if you miss, you get less overall possessions. It doesn't matter if you're a PG or a C, efficiency matters. And if you are a C it matters even more.

[DMAVS41]

What? I'm old enough to watch Larry Bird, nevermind Tim Duncan.

I'm not saying Tim Duncan's post prime career doesn't count, but it shouldn't read x Rings and x FMVP or whatever. That's not an argument. On paper Horry is also better than Duncan. That's why context matters.

Lebron is simply an easy choice over Duncan. The majority, if not all, of GMs and coaches will take Lebron over Duncan.

And you're ignoring the point. The other poster was talking about 41% fg - which you've turned into TS%, conveniently - and your dumbass said it doesn't matter as much for someone like Duncan. When the opposite is true for anyone that even knows a little about basketball. Your bigs should be your most efficient scorers as they have a physical and spatial advantage.

I didn't say I'd take Duncan over Lebron. I simply addressed some serious misconceptions you and others have.

TS is efficiency...it's not convenient...it's a far better measure than fg% alone. And again...Lebron is barely more efficient than prime Duncan in the playoffs overall. Their efficiency difference is not a huge something to note.

And, no, Duncan's efficiency is not as important as Lebron's in my opinion for a variety of reasons I've explained. You have to take into account the usage and impact without the ball.

You really think Ben Wallace's efficiency matters as much as Kobe's? I know you don't...that is just an extreme example of the difference between Duncan and Lebron as players and what matters the most.

I also never argued about Duncan's post prime career. You are yet again confused. I was arguing about Duncan's prime...not his post prime. I simply said that Duncan's prime is under-rated...and the reason I have Duncan so high actually has very little to do with his titles.

Duncan came into the league and absolute beast on both ends. This is a player that averaged 24/13/4 56% TS over an 11 year period in the playoffs while anchoring elite defenses year in year out. Yes, his team happened to be great in the regular season and playoffs overall, but his individual dominance should not be overlooked. Which you clearly do based on your ignorant comments.

He also happens to be a great teammate, great leader, and franchise first player that is loyal and is both willing and capable of adapting his game around his teammates.

I'm not sure about your GM comment either. Lebron has left his franchise twice already in his career. I'm not sure GM's would draft Lebron knowing he might bounce in 7 years when Duncan has been loyal for 20. Granted circumstances play a role in this of course, but one guy left and the other didn't. This point has no impact on how good at basketball they are, but you brought up the GM's....and they would definitely factor in loyalty when picking any player all time to start a franchise with knowing how their careers have panned out.

Lastly, I'll ask you again what "system" the Spurs were running in 03. You claimed that the Spurs have always been a system team and that Duncan has Pop to thank for all his rings. See why I think you are too young to have watched Duncan? I'd like to know how Duncan won in 03...putting up 25/15/5 while dominating defensively...if he's a system player. Please answer.

[Koresh]

I don't want to go there but if he's not in your top 5, you know nothing about basketball. He was carved into Mount Rushmore on Sunday night.

[LeBird]

TS is efficiency...it's not convenient...it's a far better measure than fg% alone. And again...Lebron is barely more efficient than prime Duncan in the playoffs overall. Their efficiency difference is not a huge something to note.

Then say that and only that. Not BS like below.


And, no, Duncan's efficiency is not as important as Lebron's in my opinion for a variety of reasons I've explained. You have to take into account the usage and impact without the ball.


You really think Ben Wallace's efficiency matters as much as Kobe's? I know you don't...that is just an extreme example of the difference between Duncan and Lebron as players and what matters the most.


Ben Wallace was never a primary or secondary scorer, the example you've given is irrelevant.

Just admit you got it wrong and move on.


He also happens to be a great teammate, great leader, and franchise first player that is loyal and is both willing and capable of adapting his game around his teammates.

I'm not sure about your GM comment either. Lebron has left his franchise twice already in his career. I'm not sure GM's would draft Lebron knowing he might bounce in 7 years when Duncan has been loyal for 20. Granted circumstances play a role in this of course, but one guy left and the other didn't. This point has no impact on how good at basketball they are, but you brought up the GM's....and they would definitely factor in loyalty when picking any player all time to start a franchise with knowing how their careers have panned out.

Lebron didn't inherit the Spurs with an already all-time great C and arguably the greatest coach of all time. If he had that, where would he be going?

Stop talking nonsense. Duncan is a great player, but he will never be in the discussion for GOAT. Any suggestion is revisionist.


Lastly, I'll ask you again what "system" the Spurs were running in 03. You claimed that the Spurs have always been a system team and that Duncan has Pop to thank for all his rings. See why I think you are too young to have watched Duncan? I'd like to know how Duncan won in 03...putting up 25/15/5 while dominating defensively...if he's a system player. Please answer.

Why would I even digress further to entertain the ego of someone who doesn't even admit that efficiency for a scoring C is important?

You're deluded kid.

[DMAVS41]

LeBird...

You are at it again with the straw men.

I'll try one last time;

1. I said Duncan's scoring efficiency doesn't matter as much as Lebron's...not that it doesn't matter at all. I'm probably the biggest proponent of scoring efficiency on this site. The Wallace example vs Kobe was just that...an extreme example. I even explained this to you if you had taken the time to read the post. I'm trying to show you that with certain players and their roles...efficiency is going to matter more or less in those scenarios. Duncan is not as high usage scorer, ball in hands, type player as Lebron. He also was a much better defender, in terms of impact overall, than Lebron....hence he has other strengths.

If you can't follow this...I give up.

2. I said circumstances play a role, but Lebron had Pat Riley, Wade, and Bosh and a proven title winning franchise and he left. Also, Pop was not a GOAT type coach when Duncan arrived...he was nearly fired and was not nearly the coach he would become. Your argument is also flawed because we aren't sure Duncan leaves in a similar situation that Lebron had. Not that it matters, again, but you brought it up.

3. I never suggested Duncan was in the GOAT conversation. Another straw man...and it's clear you haven't been reading my posts in this thread.

4. I responded to your beyond ignorant comment that Duncan only won because of the system and Pop. And I'll keep asking...what system did they run in 03?

[LeBird]

1. I said Duncan's scoring efficiency doesn't matter as much as Lebron's...not that it doesn't matter at all. I'm probably the biggest proponent of scoring efficiency on this site. The Wallace example vs Kobe was just that...an extreme example. I even explained this to you if you had taken the time to read the post. I'm trying to show you that with certain players and their roles...efficiency is going to matter more or less in those scenarios. Duncan is not as high usage scorer, ball in hands, type player as Lebron. He also was a much better defender, in terms of impact overall, than Lebron....hence he has other strengths.

You cited Ben Wallace who is irrelevant to the Duncan point re efficiency. If Ben Wallace is taking ~15 shots, his efficency matters more than his point guard's.

Much the same way Duncan having 41% fg is worse than if Lebron had it. There's no ifs ands or buts. There's a reason why the best big men are really efficient.

Ironically, the reason Lebron himself is relatively efficient is because of his ability to get close to the rim and finish - that helps him, the same way it helps all bigs who are naturally closer.


If you can't follow this...I give up.

2. I said circumstances play a role, but Lebron had Pat Riley, Wade, and Bosh and a proven title winning franchise and he left. Also, Pop was not a GOAT type coach when Duncan arrived...he was nearly fired and was not nearly the coach he would become.

Yeah, he didn't do well in his 1st ever season :lol
The next year make the playoffs with 56 wins.
The season after they won the championship.

Literally the only season Pop was ever not 'Pop', was his first, that's it. He's been a coaching phenom. You said Lebron is not reliable on staying when you know full well that is because he never had a good coach or teammates.

Lebron on the Spurs wins more titles than Duncan.

You're hilarious dude. You will argue the obvious just so you can save face. You're not even a bad poster, but you need to give this Duncan obsession up.

[DMAVS41]

You cited Ben Wallace who is irrelevant to the Duncan point re efficiency. If Ben Wallace is taking ~15 shots, his efficency matters more than his point guard's.

Much the same way Duncan having 41% fg is worse than if Lebron had it. There's no ifs ands or buts. There's a reason why the best big men are really efficient.

Ironically, the reason Lebron himself is relatively efficient is because of his ability to get close to the rim and finish - that helps him, the same way it helps all bigs who are naturally closer.



Yeah, he didn't do well in his 1st ever season :lol
The next year make the playoffs with 56 wins.
The season after they won the championship.

Literally the only season Pop was ever not 'Pop', was his first, that's it. He's been a coaching phenom. You said Lebron is not reliable on staying when you know full well that is because he never had a good coach or teammates.

Lebron on the Spurs wins more titles than Duncan.

You're hilarious dude. You will argue the obvious just so you can save face. You're not even a bad poster, but you need to give this Duncan obsession up.

What the **** are you talking about? What is this 41%fg you keep going on and on about.

You aren't even addressing my points.

Arguing to save face?

You posted this;


Spurs have always been a system team. They rarely have 2 bonafide stars, Duncan can thank Pop for his rings.




Duncan's efficiency matters more because he is a big you duffer.

The comment about the Spurs always being a system team is straight up ignorant. Sorry dude...you are the one trying to save face. And aren't actually responding to points...and making absurd claims.

I'm not responding to anything else until you tell me what system they were running in 03...

[Mr Feeny]

I'm going with '12-'16 Kobe

:lol :roll:

[Dray n Klay]

:lol :roll:

:roll: :roll:

[JohnFreeman]

:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

he's top 3 behind Jordan and kaj. CurrentlyI think so too.

I think the 3 J's are in a tier by themselves now.

He's arguably better than kareem. Might need another title to sway the reluctant contingent.

[feyki]

Too early .

[Dragonyeuw]

Too early .

For what? He's played 13 seasons and has a career's worth of achievements.

[pastis]

i would say 3-5 all time

could end up 2nd all time if he wins another ring with fmvp. he is easily on wilts, duncans, birds, shaqs level.

so you just have jordan and kaj in front of him. but he has a shot for #2

[feyki]

For what? He's played 13 seasons and has a career's worth of achievements.

I'm waiting his 35 for judging accurately .

[ArbitraryWater]

Too early .

:oldlol:

feyki furious

consensus right now everywhere is minimum top 5...

Artest just called him GOAT. Isiah put him top 3-5, Magic put him top 4 (Rushmore)....

His resume will look gigantic.

James/Jordan/Jabbar..

[1Time4YourMind]

Has the top 5 on lockdown.

Arguably top 3 right now in my personal opinion. Only Jordan and Kareem are ahead of him. He surpasses Magic and Bird with this Finals win and with his superior, superior defense.

Will become Top 2 if he has a long, healthy career after this win, longevity is the only thing Kareem has over him.

He will never pass MJ unless he wins more championships which most likely isn't gonna happen.

[Straight_Ballin]

He is the 5th best on the all time list. Never compare him to MJ though. MJ is worlds better than everyone and it's not a fault of theirs, its just that MJ was that fvcking good.

[Im Still Ballin]

:oldlol:

feyki furious

consensus right now everywhere is minimum top 5...

Artest just called him GOAT. Isiah put him top 3-5, Magic put him top 4 (Rushmore)....

His resume will look gigantic.

James/Jordan/Jabbar..
Yep

ESPN and SI were spot on when they ranked him earlier in the year

He's locked in no questions asked top 5 now

And now the argument is for top 3

Nothing will ever top what just happened

Literally the greatest achievement/performance from a superstar ever

I'm not sure we'll EVER see something this amazing in achievement ever again

[Im Still Ballin]

He is the 5th best on the all time list. Never compare him to MJ though. MJ is worlds better than everyone and it's not a fault of theirs, its just that MJ was that fvcking good.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

It's HILAR' watching the last of the LeBron haters having to change up their narrative because now even they realize their shit has gotten way too wack.. Acting like calling him 5th all time is holding him down...

WHAT A BURN

5TH

That's the new lowball figure for LeBron

Lol

KING

[chazzy]

How do we rank Russell?

[Bernkastel]

About 7-9.

What he did was great, but him reaching the Finals is mitigated due to playing in the much easier East.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm waiting his 35 for judging accurately .

Why 35? Why not 34, or 36? 37?

Anyways, not all championships are equal, and for my money the circumstances behind this championship carry more legacy-building weight than either of his Heat titles.

[dynasty1978]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Lebron
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

[Dragonyeuw]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Lebron
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

You don't have Bird anywhere in your top ten?

[TheImmortal]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Kobe Bryant
4. LeBron James
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Magic Johnson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon/Bill Russell

[stallionaire]

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russel

[dynasty1978]

You don't have Bird anywhere in your top ten?

My bad, yeah Bird is definitely in there, just forgot to add.

I have him in the lower end of it, so probably between Shaq and Wilt. Kobe and Hakeem is a flip for me as well.

[Foster5k]

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russel
:oldlol:

[feyki]

Why 35? Why not 34, or 36? 37?

Anyways, not all championships are equal, and for my money the circumstances behind this championship carry more legacy-building weight than either of his Heat titles.

No doubt . That was probably greatest leading to success since Pettit's 58 .

[IllegalD]

Charles Barkley:

"Listen, the 5 greatest players in my opinion are: Michael, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Kareem, and Wilt. I have Kobe at 6. I got Tim Duncan at 7. And then you've got LeBron, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Magic, and Bird. They're in that group, you put them where you want to. But I'm not just gonna' automatically put LeBron past Kobe as far as this generation. As far as Kobe and Tim Duncan. Those guys got 5 world championships. LeBron has 3, which is amazing. But I don't live in the moment. I'm not gonna' just say, 'Wait a minute, I'm gonna' move him past Kobe and Tim Duncan now.' I mean, I'm just not gonna' do that."

https://twitter.com/MikeAndMike/status/744866330688389120


:banana: :rockon: :hammertime: :djparty

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/781416/kobe-celebration-o.gif

[RRR3]

https://twitter.com/MikeAndMike/status/744866330688389120


:banana: :rockon: :hammertime: :djparty

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/781416/kobe-celebration-o.gif
LeBron is better than Kobe. You'd have to be insane to think otherwise at this point.

[dynasty1978]

Results from today's MSN poll (188,000) votes:

5% - greatest ever
41% - top 5
34% - top 10
20% - lower, doesn't rank

[sammichoffate]

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Lebron
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Russell/Wilt

[IllegalD]

Results from today's MSN poll (188,000) votes:

5% - greatest ever
41% - top 5
34% - top 10
20% - lower, doesn't rank

So 54% believe LeBron isn't Top 5. :cheers: :lebronamazed:

The public has spoken. :applause: :lebroncry: :djparty

[the mesiah]

He is definitely in that top 7 now , one more and he can be high as 4-5 for me ..

[BigTicket]

Lebron is top 5 now, the only question is where in the top 5.

Personally I would put Lebron at #3 all-time, behind Jordan and Kareem.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron is ARGUABELY the greatest all around player of all time that is unquestionable. The stats in Finals leading in EVERY category never has been done before takes a special player to do that.

With that said he is Comfortably in top 5 with Room to climb.. Whatever he does from here is Gravy.

[inclinerator]

He is the 5th best on the all time list. Never compare him to MJ though. MJ is worlds better than everyone and it's not a fault of theirs, its just that MJ was that fvcking good.

im shocked u have him so high

[Megabox!]

Top 5, put his face on the b-ball Mount Rushmore.

[Hey Yo]

I think around 5-7, hes serious challenging Bird for best SF in NBA history, its a toss up now. Still below Magic(rich man's Lebron) and Jordan(the GOAT) for sure.
James > Bird > Magic

LeBron's asked to do a lot more from the SF position while having a lot less talent around him.

[Odinn]

James > Bird > Magic

LeBron's asked to do a lot more from the SF position while having a lot less talent around him.
And I'd like to see him going up against Showtime Lakers, Bad Boys Pistons and Erving era Sixers. Also the Bucks were pretty decent as well. LeBron probably would've ended up with 0 rings if LeBron this kinda help against those teams.

You have to consider the competition if you want to talk about level of help from teammates.

[Mr Feeny]

i would say 3-5 all time

could end up 2nd all time if he wins another ring with fmvp. he is easily on wilts, duncans, birds, shaqs level.

so you just have jordan and kaj in front of him. but he has a shot for #2I think so it. It's not unreasonable to rank him at 2 already but I think the majority might have him 3rd or 4th at the moment. Which is insane considering he's only 31.

[T_L_P]

No way to rank Russell or Wilt. The game was too different, not enough footage exists.

Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Magic, Kareem, LeBron
Tier 3: Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4: Bird, Kobe
Tier 5: Moses, Robinson, Garnett

[T_L_P]

so the criteria changed now? What exactly are we defining? Most impactful? Most dominant? Best resume? Least reliant on other players? Most skilled?

ppl praise Duncan just for his f*cking resume. He's great, yeah, but no way he'd have that resume if he went to the Raptors or Nuggets; or if he didn't have Pop + Manu + Tony + Admiral. Dude can't carry a team himself.

Just ask yourself this. What dominating all-world legend's game wows you the most? Duncan? F*cking please.

This is a lie, because we've seen it happen.

And if you don't think he did this, then you can't really claim anyone else ever has.

[Cold soul]

No way to rank Russell or Wilt. The game was too different, not enough footage exists.

Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Magic, Kareem, LeBron
Tier 3: Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4: Bird, Kobe
Tier 5: Moses, Robinson, Garnett

Correction.

Tier 1: Jordan, Kareem, Magic
Tier 2: Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron
Tier 3: Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem

[Mr Feeny]

Correction.

Tier 1: Jordan, Kareem, Magic
Tier 2: Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron
Tier 3: Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem

Kobe is not top 10 nevermind second tier:oldlol:

LeBron is leaps and bounds ahead that it's an insult to mention that scrub in the same sentence as lebron:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Correction.

Tier 1: Jordan, Kareem, Magic
Tier 2: Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron
Tier 3: Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem

what the fck is Kobe still doing ahead of LeBron, scrub? :roll:

[Darius]

1st tier: Jordan, Kareem, LeBron

2nd tier: Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Bird

3rd tier: Wilt, Russell, Hakeem

This... I want to move Shaq into 1st tier because he won 4 as the primary option and his dominance was unmatched by anyone not named Jordan... but he has too many question marks in re: work ethic.

[T_L_P]

This... I want to move Shaq into 1st tier because he won 4 as the primary option and his dominance was unmatched by anyone not named Jordan... but he has too many question marks in re: work ethic.


??

[plowking]

The most shocking thing is the amount that have Magic over Bird.

[alenleomessi]

16 pages wow.. not going to bother reading but 3rd after jordan and kareem should be the consensus

[Bankaii]

Correction.

Tier 1: Jordan, Kareem, Magic
Tier 2: Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron
Tier 3: Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem
I swear you are such a casual fan.

Kobe isn't above Lebron anymore. That argument got destroyed with last night.
Kobe being an entire tier over Shaq?:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Ya, he is above Bird IMO. Bird pretty much has nothing on LeBron in terms of accolades at this point.

LeBron will go down as a top 5 player ever at this point, there is no debating that.

[Cold soul]

what the fck is Kobe still doing ahead of LeBron, scrub? :roll:

It's tier rank not player vs player rank.

[Cold soul]

I swear you are such a casual fan.

Kobe isn't above Lebron anymore. That argument got destroyed with last night.
Kobe being an entire tier over Shaq?:roll:

Kobe continued longevity and accolades gets the edge over Shaq for me.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe continued longevity and accolades gets the edge over Shaq for me.

what continued longevity?

Both have 14 good seasons (Shaq '92-'06, 15 actually - Kobe '00-'13), and Kobe at his best doesn't even come CLOSE to '95-'03 Shaq... :oldlol:

[D.J.]

So it looks like it's fair to say LeBron is at the 4-5 mark. Even at 4, gonna be quite awhile before he's even close to Kareem or Wilt?

[Roundball_Rock]

So it looks like it's fair to say LeBron is at the 4-5 mark. Even at 4, gonna be quite awhile before he's even close to Kareem or Wilt?

He already has a case over Wilt. He has 4 MVP's and 3 rings; Wilt had 4 MVP's and 2 rings. I still have Wilt over him on my list but LeBron already has reached a point where he has a case over Wilt. Jordan and Kareem are the only guys imo who LeBron does not yet have any legitimate case over.

[raprap]

Correction.

Tier 1: Jordan, Kareem, Magic
Tier 2: Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron
Tier 3: Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fiasco]

I have him at #7 all time.