LeBron James > Larry Bird

[TheImmortal]

LeBron James

3

[Champ]

[QUOTE=TheImmortal]LeBron James

3

[aj1987]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. So it depends on your point of view.

Career accolades are going to continue to tilt to LeBron since he's already played more games.

So it comes down to what you value more - peak play or longevity.
:roll:

LeBron > Bird peak, prime, and for their careers.

[Ben Simmons]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. So it depends on your point of view.

Career accolades are going to continue to tilt to LeBron since he's already played more games.

So it comes down to what you value more - peak play or longevity.
Bird was a better player at his peak?

No, not really.

[TheImmortal]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. So it depends on your point of view.

Career accolades are going to continue to tilt to LeBron since he's already played more games.

So it comes down to what you value more - peak play or longevity.
Sorry to break it to you but LeBron was a better player than Bird peak wise also.

[Goldrush25]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. .

Not even close.

Look at Lebron's stretch between 07 and now. He only had ONE SEASON with a PER lower than Bird's best season.

[Young X]

I agree. James has arguably already peaked higher and his longevity is already better at age 32. He's been an elite player for 12 years, how many players can say that?

Durability is a big factor here. Injuries cut Larry's longevity short and Bron is just a tank that never seems to get injured.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP gonna go back to stanning LeBron again.. what a loser.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, Bird is a top 5 player of all time and still the best SF in NBA history. Lebron is coming close, but Id have him at around 7-8, below Bird and Duncan(5-6) and on par with Russell(7-8).

[ScalsFan21]

Yes. Greatest SF all-time with essentially no debate. For me this has been settled for awhile, but now the accolades back it up more than ever.

[Prime_Shaq]

After this title, I agree. Larry Legend remains one of my favourite players of all-time though.

[NBAGOAT]

I thought this a year or two ago. Always though Lebron's peak was a little better even if Bird had great arguments for his side. Same thing for prime and Lebron adding some nice longevity and improving his postseason resume has helped even more.

[Meticode]

To me you can't argue that LeBron isn't the greatest small forward of all time anymore. It's not just the fact Cleveland won a title. It's what LeBron did in the series when it mattered most. They were down and out 1-3 and he helped March them back to game 6 to die 3-3 to title the momentum in Cleveland's favor and oh, he lead all players on both teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. That's NBA 2K shit right there.

[Champ]

Bird's peak - three straight MVPs followed by back-to-back 50-40-90 seasons during one of the league's most competitive eras - remains better.

As a player, he was a superior...
- Shooter, from all areas of the court. Vastly better post-game.
- Rebounder
- Passer
- Post defender
- Clutch performer
- Team leader

LeBron's a better perimeter defender and ball handler...and that's about it. Blocks and steals are a wash.

[Young X]

I see four comments and zero analysis.

Bird's peak - three straight MVPs followed by back-to-back 50-40-90 seasons during one of the league's most competitive eras - remains better.

As a player, he was a superior...
- Shooter, from all areas of the court. Vastly better post-game.
- Rebounder
- Passer
- Post defender
- Clutch performer
- Team leader

LeBron's a better perimeter defender and ball handler...and that's about it. Blocks and steals are a wash.James is also much better getting to the rim, finishing for easy baskets and drawing fouls. He's also clearly a better, more consistent playoff performer.

[NBAGOAT]

I see four comments and zero analysis.

Bird's peak - three straight MVPs followed by back-to-back 50-40-90 seasons during one of the league's most competitive eras - remains better.

As a player, he was a superior...
- Shooter, from all areas of the court. Vastly better post-game.
- Rebounder
- Passer
- Post defender
- Clutch performer
- Team leader

LeBron's a better perimeter defender and ball handler...and that's about it. Blocks and steals are a wash.


The post defender is nice to throw in but Lebron's better overall on defense and by quite a bit. He had one of the better defensive years of all time in 2013 for a perimeter defender. 2nd in DPOY isn't everything but it's nice. Clutch and leadership is an edge but not large, are we going act like Lebron did neither of those things well in 2013? Bird may be a better/more skilled passer but Lebron's a better playmaker which is more important. Lebron's also a vastly better slasher and finisher at the rim which I think is still the most important part of scoring and the weakest part of Bird's offensive game.

[aj1987]

Bird's peak - three straight MVPs followed by back-to-back 50-40-90 seasons during one of the league's most competitive eras - remains better.

As a player, he was a superior...
- Shooter, from all areas of the court. Vastly better post-game.
- Rebounder
- Passer
- Post defender
- Clutch performer
- Team leader

LeBron's a better perimeter defender and ball handler...and that's about it. Blocks and steals are a wash.
All those advantages and Bird's peak is worse than LeBron's.

Look at LeBron's stretch from '09-'13.

4x MVP
2x NBA Champ
2x FMVP
5x All-NBA First
5x All-Def First
RS - 28/8/7/2/1 on 61% TS
PO - 28/9/6/2/1 on 58% TS

[AintNoSunshine]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. So it depends on your point of view.

Career accolades are going to continue to tilt to LeBron since he's already played more games.

So it comes down to what you value more - peak play or longevity.


:lol :lol :lol Did you not watch this Finals AT ALL?

There is ZERO case for that. "Led Everyone in Everything"

[BigTicket]

Agreed.

More MVPs, more finals MVPs, more all-NBA 1st teams, more all-defense 1st teams, more points, more assists etc.

Bird has no argument left, he was great, but Lebron is better.

[Champ]

James is also much better getting to the rim, finishing for easy baskets and drawing fouls. He's also clearly a better, more consistent playoff performer.

LeBron wouldn't be able to finish as easily in past eras when the paint was packed with defenders, so it's hard to say.

And there's no way in hell he's "clearly a better, more consistent playoff performer."

He's had far too many Bra(i)n farts along the way.

[Champ]

All those advantages and Bird's peak is worse than LeBron's.

Look at LeBron's stretch from '09-'13.

4x MVP
2x NBA Champ
2x FMVP
5x All-NBA First
5x All-Def First
RS - 28/8/7/2/1 on 61% TS
PO - 28/9/6/2/1 on 58% TS

The stats are comparable. The skills are not. The competition was not.

I still don't see it.

[NBAGOAT]

LeBron wouldn't be able to finish as easily in past eras when the paint was packed with defenders, so it's hard to say.

And there's no way in hell he's "clearly a better, more consistent playoff performer."

He's had far too many Bra(i)n farts along the way.

Bird's playoff numbers outside of 84,86, and 87 are really unimpressive. Got beat with HCA in 80,82,83,88 in his prime and played poorly in all those series.

[Young X]

LeBron wouldn't be able to finish as easily in past eras when the paint was packed with defenders, so it's hard to say.

And there's no way in hell he's "clearly a better, more consistent playoff performer."

He's had far too many Bra(i)n farts along the way.Larry had a few of those moments too.

People just don't bring them up because he has this aura of being a killer + there was no social media back then. I think he's the least scrutinized player in the top 10.

[Champ]

The post defender is nice to throw in but Lebron's better overall on defense and by quite a bit. He had one of the better defensive years of all time in 2013 for a perimeter defender. 2nd in DPOY isn't everything but it's nice. Clutch and leadership is an edge but not large, are we going act like Lebron did neither of those things well in 2013? Bird may be a better/more skilled passer but Lebron's a better playmaker which is more important. Lebron's also a vastly better slasher and finisher at the rim which I think is still the most important part of scoring and the weakest part of Bird's offensive game.

The is a good, reasoned response, but see my previous post on how it was much more difficult to get to the rim in decades past.

Bird was actually a very good slasher during the early part of his career, but he paid a physical price for it.

I don't really agree with LeBron being the better "playmaker." He certainly dominates the ball more, which is generally not a good thing. It's a practice that's much more tolerated in today's game than it used to be.

I still think that Bird and Magic elevated their teammates to a greater degree and more than anyone else who's ever played.

[tmacattack33]

Except that Bird was still the better player at his peak. So it depends on your point of view.

Career accolades are going to continue to tilt to LeBron since he's already played more games.

So it comes down to what you value more - peak play or longevity.

Bruh, Lebron has two peaks (2009 and 2012) both likely better than Bird's best. It's not a landslide of course, but it's there.

And even Larry Bird himself was amazed by Lebron's 2012 run and said it was maybe the best we've ever seen before.

[NBAGOAT]

The is a good, reasoned response, but see my previous post on how it was much more difficult to get to the rim in decades past.

Bird was actually a very good slasher during the early part of his career, but he paid a physical price for it.

I don't really agree with LeBron being the better "playmaker." He certainly dominates the ball more, which is generally not a good thing. It's a practice that's much more tolerated in today's game than it used to be.

I still think that Bird and Magic elevated their teammates to a greater degree and more than anyone else who's ever played.

Well that's part of being a better playmaker. It's why Bird will never be as a good playmaker as most pg's. Lebron's athleticism also helps with his playmaking which has nothing to do with passing skill but should be accounted for. He's fine as a slasher but I would argue most great scorers in the 80's were better than him at it and his foul rate is one of the lowest too compared those other scorers. Meanwhile, Lebron's considered a top 5 slasher of all time at least. I'll add on Lebron's a better fastbreak/ open court player than Bird and also most likely top 5 ever there at least. That's one area he would've benefited from even more in the 80's.

[Champ]

Bird's playoff numbers outside of 84,86, and 87 are really unimpressive. Got beat with HCA in 80,82,83,88 in his prime and played poorly in all those series.

Bird did not play poorly in all those series from all those years, but I suppose you're cherry picking. Boston always had HCA - and won far more series than they lost - against some of the top dynasties in NBA history, so I don't see the value in this stat.

You also left out 81 - his sophomore year when he had another great playoff run.

[Champ]

Well that's part of being a better playmaker. It's why Bird will never be as a good playmaker as most pg's. Lebron's athleticism also helps with his playmaking which has nothing to do with passing skill but should be accounted for. He's fine as a slasher but I would argue most great scorers in the 80's were better than him at it and his foul rate is one of the lowest too compared those other scorers. Meanwhile, Lebron's considered a top 5 slasher of all time at least. I'll add on Lebron's a better fastbreak/ open court player than Bird and also most likely top 5 ever there at least. That's one area he would've benefited from even more in the 80's.

Tough call on the fastbreak analogy. Bird's one of the game's all time great outlet passers and those early-80s Celtics teams ran constantly. They pushed the ball differently back then, though - through the air, not off the dribble.

[Kblaze8855]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

[NBAGOAT]

Bird did not play poorly in all those series from all those years, but I suppose you're cherry picking. Boston always had HCA - and won far more series than they lost - against some of the top dynasties in NBA history, so I don't see the value in this stat.

You also left out 81 - his sophomore year when he had another great playoff run.

Well maybe my standards are too high and you may be right about 80. The other 3 series vs Philly, Milwaukee, and Detroit are definitely not good however. 81 was nice but even then in the Finals, he shot poorly and was outplayed by Maxwell in enough people's eyes to not get FMVP.

Edit: and we don't have to assume Lebron played on the Celtics. A team like Showtime definitely pushed with the dribble and there were other teams like that.

[TheImmortal]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....
:facepalm One of the worst posts I've ever seen.. LeBron > Bird. Stop.

[greymatter]

Not even close.

Look at Lebron's stretch between 07 and now. He only had ONE SEASON with a PER lower than Bird's best season.

It's clear you have no idea what PER means. PER is normalized to 15. That means the entire league is averaged to 15. Bird played when there were barely 20 teams and there was a higher concentration of talented players. Today's league has 30 teams.

What that basically means is that Bird played against much better talent, hence his lower PER.

To dumb it down even further, if the entire league were made up of Michael Jordans all doing their thing --scoring 30ppg, 6rpg, 6apg-- their PERs would be exactly 15.

PER is a number that grades a player on how much better/worse they are impact wise vs their peers.

[Kblaze8855]

If you have nothing to say....dont say anything. Not to me at least. The first half of the third sentence is the only thing I said even the least bit disputable. Maybe the last word of the first sentence. Maybe. But if you arent trying to talk ball im not the one to talk to.

[chosen_one6]

What's funny is that LeBron's career isn't over and there's a debate about whether he is better than Bird all time RIGHT NOW. 2 seasons from now, or even one season, and it's not even going to be a discussion that LeBron is better. Keep debating though. It's fun to read while it lasts.

[aj1987]

The stats are comparable. The skills are not. The competition was not.
Exactly. LeBron shits on Bird.

[Prime_Shaq]

Exactly. LeBron shits on Bird.
Not really. LeBron is better but he doesnt shit on Bird.

[Kblaze8855]

What's funny is that LeBron's career isn't over and there's a debate about whether he is better than Bird all time RIGHT NOW. 2 seasons from now, or even one season, and it's not even going to be a discussion that LeBron is better. Keep debating though. It's fun to read while it lasts.


Jerry Sloan had Bird as the greatest of all time after the first round playoffs of his second season. And to me....thats how it should be. I mean for players in general. If a player is ____ hes ____. You dont need to wait 15 years and say what he was in retrospect. If Lebron is better than Bird he was better yesterday morning. And last year. And probably 6 years ago.

Lebrons career is getting better. Hes not getting better. Year to year hes doing different things.....but his total game? I...dont see how hes better than he was in 2012 or 13. Hes maintained for the most part.

He was a terror last year but got clowned for a year for losing with no help. He didnt prove he was better than last year....at least not to me. Having another guy who can score 30-40...healthy...helps get him another ring. It greatly bumps up his career accolades. It doesnt mean hes better at basketball now.

[Indian guy]

This was true even prior to last night. The only thing Bird had over LeBron was 1 more ring. He can't even say that anymore. LeBron's numbers are far, far superior, particularly in the playoffs. He has more individual accolades and simply breaking them down as players on the court, LeBron's clearly more impactful because he excels at more aspects of the game. Bird's lone edge is his shooting, but even there LeBron scores more on better efficiency while leading more effective offenses.

[Champ]

Well maybe my standards are too high and you may be right about 80. The other 3 series vs Philly, Milwaukee, and Detroit are definitely not good however. 81 was nice but even then in the Finals, he shot poorly and was outplayed by Maxwell in enough people's eyes to not get FMVP.

Edit: and we don't have to assume Lebron played on the Celtics. A team like Showtime definitely pushed with the dribble and there were other teams like that.

Sure, but not to the extent that you see today - fast breaks from that time period were much more passing-oriented.

MVP or not, Bird played great in '81 Finals when it mattered most. Max's MVP was a bit of an anomaly and the product of how votes were cast back then. Anyone who analyzed the series from today's statistical context could easily determine which player had the greatest impact.

[Champ]

This was true even prior to last night. The only thing Bird had over LeBron was 1 more ring. He can't even say that anymore. LeBron's numbers are far, far superior, particularly in the playoffs. He has more individual accolades and simply breaking them down as players on the court, LeBron's clearly more impactful because he excels at more aspects of the game. Bird's lone edge is his shooting, but even there LeBron scores more on better efficiency while leading more effective offenses.

His only edge is shooting?

I'd love to get your take on how LeBron's a better rebounder.

[Pushxx]

Jerry Sloan had Bird as the greatest of all time after the first round playoffs of his second season. And to me....thats how it should be. I mean for players in general. If a player is ____ hes ____. You dont need to wait 15 years and say what he was in retrospect. If Lebron is better than Bird he was better yesterday morning. And last year. And probably 6 years ago.

Lebrons career is getting better. Hes not getting better. Year to year hes doing different things.....but his total game? I...dont see how hes better than he was in 2012 or 13. Hes maintained for the most part.

He was a terror last year but got clowned for a year for losing with no help. He didnt prove he was better than last year....at least not to me. Having another guy who can score 30-40...healthy...helps get him another ring. It greatly bumps up his career accolades. It doesnt mean hes better at basketball now.

Well said kblaze.

[Helix]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....


Agreed. Add in Bird's off the charts basketball IQ, his mental toughness and leadership abilities.......there's simply no way I'd EVER take Lebron James over Larry Bird.

[FillJackson]

I don't really agree with LeBron being the better "playmaker." He certainly dominates the ball more, which is generally not a good thing. It's a practice that's much more tolerated in today's game than it used to be.

I still think that Bird and Magic elevated their teammates to a greater degree and more than anyone else who's ever played.

Yeah, I'm not sure what playmaker means here. Is it the ability to run the offense as a point guard?

And I don't know how much this matters, but I love Lebron's highlights, but I loved watched Larry play more. The dominate the ball, run the clock down thing is tiresome. The quickness that Bird made his decisions with was always something to watch. The plays seemed to flow, rather than grind.

In LeBron's defense the defensive schemes are more complex today which slows you down.

[aj1987]

Jerry Sloan had Bird as the greatest of all time after the first round playoffs of his second season. And to me....thats how it should be. I mean for players in general. If a player is ____ hes ____. You dont need to wait 15 years and say what he was in retrospect. If Lebron is better than Bird he was better yesterday morning. And last year. And probably 6 years ago.

Lebrons career is getting better. Hes not getting better. Year to year hes doing different things.....but his total game? I...dont see how hes better than he was in 2012 or 13. Hes maintained for the most part.

He was a terror last year but got clowned for a year for losing with no help. He didnt prove he was better than last year....at least not to me. Having another guy who can score 30-40...healthy...helps get him another ring. It greatly bumps up his career accolades. It doesnt mean hes better at basketball now.
That's just a retarded statement from Jerry Sloan. I'm assuming that it was just hyperbole.

You obviously can get better from year to year. You think '07, '09, and '13 LeBron are all the same? Dude worked on his jumper, improved his post game, and made it a point to not waste possessions, but taking ill-advised shots.

Lets compare LeBron at his best to Bird at his best. IMO, LeBron would do a much better job with a scrub team than LeBron. Lets also not forget that Bird's teams were stacked to the brim with ATG level players and defenders in their PRIMES. I'm not talking about a good or great, but ATG level players. How many series do you think LeBron can win averaging 15/15/7 on 42%? Dude averaged 36/13/9 on 40% and lost the Finals last year. Dude had two straight 8 point games and won one and nearly won the second as well. How many PO games do you think LeBron would win scoring 8 point games?

[Quickening]

People can argue who had the better peak or prime because its so subjective, even though it does seem Lebron is a better all round player, but haters and bird fans will be blinded to this.

But if you're ranking based on career, how people argue Bird when Lebron is literally better or equal in nearly every individual category, and team achievements is ridiculous.

Lebron already has better longevity at 31 years old...

[Kblaze8855]

07 Lebron was early enough he had a lot of room to improve. Exactly when he hit the level hes maintained is hard to say. But it was some time ago. From an old discussion on the 81 finals:



He had 18/21/9 and the biggest shot of the game in game 1

19/21/3 3 steals and 5 blocks in game 2

9/13/10 3 steals and 3 blocks in a 20+ point win in game 3

8/12/7 in game 4 loss

12/12/8 in a 30 point win in game 5

26/13/5/3 and 7 straight points to put the game away after the Rockets got within 3 in the 4th quarter after being down 16 with 10 minutes to go.

It was far from a bad series.


People never look into these things. Dude gets hated on for not trying to score when hes literally up 35 points one of the low scoring games and 25 in the other. He had one low scoring game where they needed more. Its hardly something to make a big deal of considering we are talking about him in comparison to Lebron. Hes has a head scratching lack of aggression a time or two as I recall. And he wasnt usually up 30.

[aj1987]

07 Lebron was early enough he had a lot of room to improve. Exactly when he hit the level hes maintained is hard to say. But it was some time ago. From an old discussion on the 81 finals:
Again, '07 LeBron is not the same as '09 LeBron and '09 LeBron is not the same as '13 LeBron.


People never look into these things. Dude gets hated on for not trying to score when hes literally up 35 points one of the low scoring games and 25 in the other. He had one low scoring game where they needed more. Its hardly something to make a big deal of considering we are talking about him in comparison to Lebron. Hes has a head scratching lack of aggression a time or two as I recall. And he wasnt usually up 30.
The guy shot like shit and was carried by his teammates. Isn't that what I said? My point was, when did LeBron EVER have the luxury to play like that and win a series.

[chosen_one6]

Jerry Sloan had Bird as the greatest of all time after the first round playoffs of his second season. And to me....thats how it should be. I mean for players in general. If a player is ____ hes ____. You dont need to wait 15 years and say what he was in retrospect. If Lebron is better than Bird he was better yesterday morning. And last year. And probably 6 years ago.

Lebrons career is getting better. Hes not getting better. Year to year hes doing different things.....but his total game? I...dont see how hes better than he was in 2012 or 13. Hes maintained for the most part.

He was a terror last year but got clowned for a year for losing with no help. He didnt prove he was better than last year....at least not to me. Having another guy who can score 30-40...healthy...helps get him another ring. It greatly bumps up his career accolades. It doesnt mean hes better at basketball now.

I was speaking in terms of career. Not necessarily basketball skills.

But if we're going to go there, LeBron may not be the most skilled basketball wise but his athleticism is other-worldly. I don't believe Bird could have kept up with LeBron for a full 48 minutes. That's just like, my opinion though man.

[Kblaze8855]

If you consider building a 29 point lead and not shooting again being carried you and I just dont need to be talking ball. Shooting a lot and playing basketball well are not the same thing.

[Kblaze8855]

I was speaking in terms of career. Not necessarily basketball skills.

But if we're going to go there, LeBron may not be the most skilled basketball wise but his athleticism is other-worldly. I don't believe Bird could have kept up with LeBron for a full 48 minutes. That's just like, my opinion though man.

Thats fine. But he kept up with and outplayed a long list of absurd athletes. He certainly couldnt keep up with Doctor J or Nique. But he did outplay them.

[FillJackson]

Tough call on the fastbreak analogy. Bird's one of the game's all time great outlet passers and those early-80s Celtics teams ran constantly. They pushed the ball differently back then, though - through the air, not off the dribble.
yeah, Bird was a fantastic fast break player.

I don't remember Bird screwing up or getting stopped on many fast breaks. The ball still went in the basket, just in a different way.

https://youtu.be/WghWNST8of8?t=290

https://youtu.be/0p-9GI85xcs?t=22

[FillJackson]

81 was nice but even then in the Finals, he shot poorly and was outplayed by Maxwell in enough people's eyes to not get FMVP.
Bird had a monster all around series in 1981 with 35 more rebounds and 25 more assists than Maxwell. I think with more attention now paid to the all around game and the concept of the triple double, that most would agree Bird had the better series because the only place Maxwell really beat Bird was fg%. Scoring was close with Maxwell only 2ppg better because Maxwell also had two poor games that series.

Bird's series against Phily 1981 was fantastic.

[FillJackson]

I was speaking in terms of career. Not necessarily basketball skills.

But if we're going to go there, LeBron may not be the most skilled basketball wise but his athleticism is other-worldly. I don't believe Bird could have kept up with LeBron for a full 48 minutes. That's just like, my opinion though man.
Actually stamina was one of the things Bird was known for. Nobody in the NBA weight trained when Bird came in, they discouraged it, thought it would make you too tight. Bird's doctor recommended he do it in 1988....it inspired Jordan to state weight training, but Bird's offseason routine was bike 10 miles, run like 7 miles and take a 1,000 shots. And that thousand shots was outdoors. That helped him in that famous game in the old Boston Garden during a heat wave, he had one of his best games ever with temperature in the high 90's inside the building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsmmGo-yFc

He played 42 minutes shot 15-20, and ended with 34 points and 17 rebounds.

[1Time4YourMind]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....
You listed several things in that 1st sentence making it seem like Bird was better at so many things even though in reality it wasn't that much. Lebron was a better passer and ran the offense better than Bird, but not quite as good as Magic. If you really want to nitpick on specific categories of passing. I could bring up the fact that in crosscourt passing, fastbreak passing and overall floor generalship Lebron is better.

Also if Lebron is a better defensive player... isn't that a huge deal than any single aspect of offense since you play defense half the time? Bird never guarded the opposing team's best player, that was DJ's job. Or Parish. Lebron is the best defensive player in those early Cav squads, Miami squad, and post-Miami Cavs. Something you can never say about Bird. In addition if we are talking about comparing peaks then health shouldn't be an issue since Bird's back problems only started surfacing after 1987 (the last year of his peak) and didn't sideline him until 1989. In terms of circumstance... Bird was part of the greatest frontcourt of all time and arguably the greatest team of all time with the '86 Celtics.

Bird is easily the better shooter and rebounder. There isn't a question. But IMO that isn't enough for me to put him over Lebron's superior defense, passing and floor generalship, and recent Finals performances.

[FillJackson]

Thats fine. But he kept up with and outplayed a long list of absurd athletes. He certainly couldnt keep up with Doctor J or Nique. But he did outplay them.
A point that a lot people miss about Bird if they didn't see him play or only saw him after the injuries. Against guys like Dominique or Dr J or Scottie Pippen he was able to get his shots and he didn't need much room.

[FillJackson]

Lebron is a great passer. He is not better than Larry Bird.

[~primetime~]

It''s very very close, but yeah I'd have Bron over Bird now.

[aj1987]

If you consider building a 29 point lead and not shooting again being carried you and I just dont need to be talking ball. Shooting a lot and playing basketball well are not the same thing.
The Celtics led by 17 after 3. The game wasn't over. Someone was scoring and helping them win. It wasn't Bird. It means that someone else carried him to the W.

I thought my previous post was in simple English. I guess not. Let me be even more specific. The 29 point lead you're referring to, someone had to score to get the team there. Again, it wasn't Bird, obviously. Hence, he was carried.

With all that being said:

Prime, LeBron >>>
Peak, LeBron >
Career, LeBron >>>>>>


Lebron is a great passer. He is not better than Larry Bird.
:roll:

Yeah, everyone is better than LeBron at everything. Yet, people expect him to average a 30pt triple double every game. The standards some players are held to... :facepalm

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Gotta go with Bird here. Context. Played on one team his entire career that was garbage before they drafted him and improved them to a fantastic record. Main thing, though, is conference disparity. LeBron played in the East his entire career and it has been a very weak conference historically during that time. Bird played in a bloodbath of a conference back in his day and had to routinely go through Dr. J/Moses' 6'ers, Bad Boy Pistons, etc. Imagine if Bird, McHale, Parish and them boys were in today's East for his career? I'd wager he'd have more rings than LeBron right now. 3/5 > 3/7 as well.

[Smoke117]

All time? Agreed...but only because Larry hurt his back.

[raprap]

Lebron is the goat sf. I think even Bird would agree.

[Micku]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

For a while now, I had this mind set. But after watching what happened in Miami and what happened in Cleveland, does it really matter how well you mesh with other players if you win it regardless?

I agree that Bird is a better shooter, rebounder, and probably the passer overall since he doesn't handle the ball as much as LBJ and could still find his guys at the right spot. He also have better footwork than LBJ in the post, and seems more polished down on the block than LBJ. The ability to move without the ball exceeds LeBron James in that area, which allows other star players to shine.

With that said, LeBron James is more successful despite all of this. The 2011 Heat team was a bit of mess offensively, but they still overwhelm teams with their talent. They got better overtime. LeBron is more efficient than Bird ever was when LBJ was at his peak. He is a better scorer. And was more consistent throughout his career like you mentioned.

I've came to the realization that how is he not a better basketball player? Despite LeBron's shady jumper throughout his career, he is still get his and is hard to stop him. At LeBron's peak (2013 for me), he had a jumper and was great with the catch and shoot. But this also could be disguise in terms of his shot selection. In the finals, the Spurs gave him the jumper, and he couldn't knock it down until game 6 and 7.

But since he is harder to stop and roughly gives the same numbers as Bird or a bit better with better defense, how is he not the better basketball player? You could go to the finals with either style of play, but it's much harder to stop LeBron than it Bird it seems. Some of that is due to health, but LeBron is athleticism appears to be too much.

Since we seen both of them at their peak and how their career is going, IMO I think LeBron James is better in both career wise and as a individual player. Bird is better skilled and probably would mesh better with a stack team due to his playstyle, but LeBron could also get results and LeBron is more consistent.

[midatlantic09]

Lebron has been better than Bird for a while now...

[Derka]

I have him on the Bird/Magic tier now. If Lebron wins one more, he stays on that tier but ahead of both.

[brooks_thompson]

Longetivity-wise, yes. He's at the point where you can say he's had a better career than Bird.

All respect to James, I'd still take 80s Bird.

[Just2McFly]

I respect kblaze but this is some nonsense, Bron has been better from time.

[tpols]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances.People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

agree with this.. but GOAT lists always include that

[NBAGOAT]

For a while now, I had this mind set. But after watching what happened in Miami and what happened in Cleveland, does it really matter how well you mesh with other players if you win it regardless?

I agree that Bird is a better shooter, rebounder, and probably the passer overall since he doesn't handle the ball as much as LBJ and could still find his guys at the right spot. He also have better footwork than LBJ in the post, and seems more polished down on the block than LBJ. The ability to move without the ball exceeds LeBron James in that area, which allows other star players to shine.

With that said, LeBron James is more successful despite all of this. The 2011 Heat team was a bit of mess offensively, but they still overwhelm teams with their talent. They got better overtime. LeBron is more efficient than Bird ever was when LBJ was at his peak. He is a better scorer. And was more consistent throughout his career like you mentioned.

I've came to the realization that how is he not a better basketball player? Despite LeBron's shady jumper throughout his career, he is still get his and is hard to stop him. At LeBron's peak (2013 for me), he had a jumper and was great with the catch and shoot. But this also could be disguise in terms of his shot selection. In the finals, the Spurs gave him the jumper, and he couldn't knock it down until game 6 and 7.

But since he is harder to stop and roughly gives the same numbers as Bird or a bit better with better defense, how is he not the better basketball player? You could go to the finals with either style of play, but it's much harder to stop LeBron than it Bird it seems. Some of that is due to health, but LeBron is athleticism appears to be too much.

Since we seen both of them at their peak and how their career is going, IMO I think LeBron James is better in both career wise and as a individual player. Bird is better skilled and probably would mesh better with a stack team due to his playstyle, but LeBron could also get results and LeBron is more consistent.

I think a lot of scoring advantage comes from the slashing and finishing ability from athleticism. as others have said. Also, as you said his jumper and post game were actually quite good in Miami. Shooting 40% from 3 is very good. Having that one man fastbreak ability like magic or drexler helps too. Ik everyone likes skill but athleticism is pretty important for a scorer too. MJ wouldn't be nearly the same player without his athletic ability and even more so for guys like Shaq or Lebron.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Peakwise, it's close, honestly you could give either player the edge.

Longevity CLEARLY goes to Lebron.

Bird used to have the argument in career accolades, but that's no longer true anymore, so I would have to say Lebron is better, as having the longevity bumps him over Bird.

[Round Mound]

Bird

Better Far range Shooter
Better Mid Range Shooter
Better Post Player
Better Stationary Passer
Better Rebounder
More Clutch

Lebron

Better Ballhandler
Better Driver
Better Finisher
Better Athleate
Better Defender
Better Offense Creator Point-Forward


For Me The Two Best SFs in NBA History But They Play Very Different

[Mikaiel]

I agree that LeBron > Bird (damn, what have I just said ???), but if Bird had the same dedication to his body as LeBron, I think Bird would have had the better career.

As good as LeBron is, he's moving up the all time rankings thanks to his longevity. He's a freak of nature and he works hard at keeping his body healthy. According to Bill Simmons, he spends $1.5 million a year on his body (trainers, personal chef, own gym etc).

In contrast, Bird had a back injury(while not even playing) and that was the end of his career ....

That's why comparing players from different eras is tough.

EDIT : I do think Bird was the better shooter/passer/player. Only thing LeBron has on him is defense. And longevity obviously.

[Lebron23]

Yes

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bron proved it this year...and this year alone.

I didn't see games 5, 6 or 7 coming and nobody else did either. We haven't seen THAT Lebron since 2012 @ Boston - and THAT guy was better than any perimeter player not named Jordan.

[Johnni Gade]

Stats in LeGends favor, but its tough to compare. Plus Larry was playing Jordan.

[LeBird]

I think what hurts Bird is the fact that he played in the toughest competition in the toughest era of all time and it would have been nigh impossible to rack up something like 6 mvps or 6 rings. Also, clearly, that he had a shorter career because of a back problem hurts him in these GOAT discussions a little. Otherwise, for me he is in ability/talent terms the GOAT basketball player.

Saying Lebron though is fair now. He is a beast, maybe the GOAT himself - probably will be when it is all said and done.

Personally, I'd have Larry as the PF he always was, with Lebron as SF.

[aj1987]

You guys keep bringing up competition for the MVP, but it was basically Bird and Magic fighting it out for the MVP. Both were on super stacked teams. The one that put up the better stat line and had the better team record would win the MVP.

[Bigsmoke]

I'm not some old white guy so LeBron > Bird

[Micku]

You guys keep bringing up competition for the MVP, but it was basically Bird and Magic fighting it out for the MVP. Both were on super stacked teams. The one that put up the better stat line and had the better team record would win the MVP.

In the 80s?

It was Kareem, Moses Malone, Bird, Dr. J in the beginning.

In the mid 80s, it was still Kareem and Moses Malone, but you had Wilkins in there along with Bird, Magic and Hakeem.

After 86, you had Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and Barkley.

Basically in the 80s, Bird battled out against Moses Malone, Kareem, Dr. J, and Magic. Jordan came later.

[DirkNowitzki41]

LeBron was better than Bird before his 3rd (and by far his most legendary) ring.

[aj1987]

In the 80s?

It was Kareem, Moses Malone, Bird, Dr. J in the beginning.

In the mid 80s, it was still Kareem and Moses Malone, but you had Wilkins in there along with Bird, Magic and Hakeem.

After 86, you had Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and Barkley.

Basically in the 80s, Bird battled out against Moses Malone, Kareem, Dr. J, and Magic. Jordan came later.
For like the first 3 years? KAJ wasn't winning MVP after his '80 season. Neither were Moses and Dr. J after the '83 season.

MJ didn't really have a good enough team to beat out Bird and Magic. Same with Barkley. Clyde was not on their level.

[Micku]

For like the first 3 years? KAJ wasn't winning MVP after his '80 season. Neither were Moses and Dr. J after the '83 season.

MJ didn't really have a good enough team to beat out Bird and Magic. Same with Barkley. Clyde was not on their level.

Who were the second, third, and fourth running for MVP? Who were ppl talking about the best or second best player for MVP? Just because you don't win MVP, it doesn't mean you aren't competing for it.

Shaq didn't win MVP in 2001, but A.I, Shaq and Duncan were top 3 in MVP voting. In 1987, Michael Jordan was second behind Magic Johnson for MVP. Bird was third. Kareem was top 5 in 84 and 85. Moses Malone was top 3 in 85. How is this not competing? Compare that to some years where Shaq was out of the top 3 in 03 and 04. Does that mean he isn't in the race? Nah. It just means that other players have a stronger argument, including a player in his own team. Shaq was still the best player despite not winning in a couple of those years.

And Moses had some good cases for it. Dude averaged in 85, 25/13 with their team having a record of 58-24. Although many people were calling Bird the best player at this time.

Bird was straight up competing against Moses, Dr. J, and Kareem in the first three years. In 1984, it was Bird, King and Magic as top 3. In 85 it was Bird, Magic and Moses. In 86 it was Bird, Wilkins and Magic. In 87 it was Magic, Jordan and Bird.

[aj1987]

Who were the second, third, and fourth running for MVP? Who were ppl talking about the best or second best player for MVP? Just because you don't win MVP, it doesn't mean you aren't competing for it.

Shaq didn't win MVP in 2001, but A.I, Shaq and Duncan were top 3 in MVP voting. In 1987, Michael Jordan was second behind Magic Johnson for MVP. Bird was third. Kareem was top 5 in 84 and 85. Moses Malone was top 3 in 85. How is this not competing? Compare that to some years where Shaq was out of the top 3 in 03 and 04. Does that mean he isn't in the race? Nah. It just means that other players have a stronger argument, including a player in his own team. Shaq was still the best player despite not winning in a couple of those years.

And Moses had some good cases for it. Dude averaged in 85, 25/13 with their team having a record of 58-24. Although many people were calling Bird the best player at this time.

Bird was straight up competing against Moses, Dr. J, and Kareem in the first three years. In 1984, it was Bird, King and Magic as top 3. In 85 it was Bird, Magic and Moses. In 86 it was Bird, Wilkins and Magic. In 87 it was Magic, Jordan and Bird.
I meant that they basically had the MVP locked up with their team records and stats. Bird averaged 29/11/7 on 59% TS that season and his team won 63. Magic averaged 18/6/13 on 64% TS and his team won 62.

There was literally no way anyone else was winning MVP that season. That was point. Those two had the records and stats to lock up the MVP almost every single season. It was basically between Magic and Bird.

[LeBird]

They didn't have it locked up? There were many multiple time winners of the MVP in the 80s.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron is currently at #7 alltime on my list, used to be borderline top 10 but hes clearly above that tier now. Bird though, is at #5 and still the best SF in NBA history.

[aj1987]

They didn't have it locked up? There were many multiple time winners of the MVP in the 80s.
The only one to win it multiple times was Moses.

[LeBird]

The only one to win it multiple times was Moses.

I should rephrase, many sounds like there were like 5.

Moses, Bird and Magic. 3 players to win it multiple times.

Kareem won in 80, Dr J won in 81 and Jordan won in 88.

These are basically 4 of the top 6-7 players of all time and Dr J and Moses are probably top 15 too.

Guys like Malone, Hakeem or Barkley that got MVPs in the 90s couldn't even get one.

[aj1987]

I should rephrase, many sounds like there were like 5.

Moses, Bird and Magic. 3 players to win it multiple times.

Kareem won in 80, Dr J won in 81 and Jordan won in 88.

These are basically 4 of the top 6-7 players of all time and Dr J and Moses are probably top 15 too.

Guys like Malone, Hakeem or Barkley that got MVPs in the 90s couldn't even get one.
That's because Magic and Bird had the better teams and better records. You think if Chuck or Hakeem or Malone put up something like 28/13/5 and carried their teams to 62 wins or something like that, they wouldn't win MVP?

[Rolando]

Ultimately, and inevitably, Lebron will be ranked higher.

Peak Bird is still greater than Peak Lebron.

The only things Bron does better are defense and ball-handling.

[AintNoSunshine]

Stop saying Bird is the better rebounder.

Lebron has too many huge rebounding games in the Playoffs where he tries.

They are at the very least equal in this department.

[Rolando]

Stop saying Bird is the better rebounder.

Lebron has too many huge rebounding games in the Playoffs where he tries.

They are at the very least equal in this department.

In the post season, Bird averaged 10.3 Rebounds per Game. James averages 8.8 Rebounds per game.

[Micku]

I meant that they basically had the MVP locked up with their team records and stats. Bird averaged 29/11/7 on 59% TS that season and his team won 63. Magic averaged 18/6/13 on 64% TS and his team won 62.

There was literally no way anyone else was winning MVP that season. That was point. Those two had the records and stats to lock up the MVP almost every single season. It was basically between Magic and Bird.

Oh definitely, he was the front runner in 85 and there's reason why won it. He was playing like he was the best player in the league, and had the best record. But the very next year, Magic wasn't the second place in MVP voting. That was Wilkins. This happened despite the Lakers having a better record than the Hawks. But this part doesn't matter since actually winning the MVP matters then?

With that said, isn't fair to say that Bird was also competing against the MVP against Kareem, Dr. J and Moses Malone in the early 80s since the Celts usually had the best record in the league and Bird never won the MVP. His stats weren't good enough to win it over guys like Dr. J, Kareem, and Moses Malone.

I suppose you can say that Bird wasn't in his prime, so it doesn't count. When Bird was in his prime, I guess from 84-88, he was competing against Magic and Jordan then since they both won MVP during that time span.



Stop saying Bird is the better rebounder.

Lebron has too many huge rebounding games in the Playoffs where he tries.

They are at the very least equal in this department.


LeBron James is great rebounder.

I just think Bird had better feats. Not only did he average +10 in the regular season before, he averaged +14 in the playoffs. He also went up against one of the best rebounders of all time with Moses Malone and averaged 15.3 rebounds in the finals against him.

He went up against Kareem in the several times that they met in the finals. In the 1984 finals, Bird killed with the offensive rebounds. That and the Lakers choking, was the key reasons why the Celtics won that game. In that series, he averaged 14.0 rebounds per game. He averaged 3.7 offensive rebounds. If you never seen this series, I highly recommend it. Bird kept the Celtics in the game by so many second chance points.

You can argue it's because of the pacing, and that could be true. So, you can use total rebound percentage, and Bird beat him in that too. Bird not only have the better feats with going up against legendary rebounders and big men but better statistics (both raw and advance). So, the edge goes his way imo.

Bird regular season peak wise averaged
11.0 rpg
Total Rebound Percentage:
16.0

LeBron regular season peak wise averaged:
8.0 rpg
Total Rebound Percentage:
13.1


Bird playoffs peak wise averaged:
14.0 rpg
Total Rebound Percentage:
17.6

LeBron James playoffos peak wise averaged:
11.3
Total Rebound Percentage:
14.7


Bird regular career wise:
10.0
Total Rebound Percentage:
14.5

LeBron regular career wise:
7.2
Total Rebound Percentage:
10.8

Bird is just better at it.

[AcquiringSteak]

can someone explain WHY larry bird is above lebron in so many people's lists? lebron has now officially dominated him in every category... now hes got 3x rings, 3x FMVP

[stallionaire]

not even worth it to respond past the first replay


compare accolades and accomplishments

lebron is better and at this point it's a stupid conversation

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron with McHale and parish is 5 championships guaranteed

[Kingwillball]

Really no comparison at this point Lebron clearly better , more durable more athletic better stats ect..

[LeBird]

That's because Magic and Bird had the better teams and better records. You think if Chuck or Hakeem or Malone put up something like 28/13/5 and carried their teams to 62 wins or something like that, they wouldn't win MVP?

Erm, no. During the earlier part of their careers Magic and Bird were clearly better - they were getting GOAT talks, especially Bird. And later on Jordan came and it basically became a wrap.


Stop saying Bird is the better rebounder.

Lebron has too many huge rebounding games in the Playoffs where he tries.

They are at the very least equal in this department.

Bird is the better rebounder, clearly.

[mr4speed]

can someone explain WHY larry bird is above lebron in so many people's lists? lebron has now officially dominated him in every category... now hes got 3x rings, 3x FMVP
Because Bird did things that you will never see Lebron duplicate. Like telling Xavier McDaniel to his face how he was going to get the ball,shoot the game winning shot "right here" and there was nothing the X-man could do to stop it". After delivering the game winner Bird laughed at him. Bird created the 50/40/90 club and shot at that level for 2 back to back seasons. He averaged 29.9 pts one year, which stood as the milestone for a long time. Bird won 3 consecutive 3 point shootouts and asked every sharpshooter in the contest "so who's playing for 2nd, cause I'm winning this thing". He publicly called out his teammates and himself for playing like "sissies" vs LA in 84 Finals after game 3 and was a beast in game 4, nose to nose screamng at KAJ and hit the game winner. Game 5 was the heat game and Bird dominated and turned the series around! The game 7 duel vs Dominique was as good as you will ever see. Lebron is a great player with amazing talent, skill and versatility but we are talking apples and oranges. 2 different era's, rules, teammates, conferences etc. Neither player is way better than the other - it is not just adding up all the accolades. Lebron has played in many more games and his collusion cannot b overlooked as manipulative for his sole benefit. Lebron has had spells in Finals where he has disappeared. Bird played as if his life depended on the outcome. These are all intangibles and subjective because they dont show up on a stat sheet, but this is why people who saw Bird play would pick Bird over Lebron. Mental toughness, desire, the ability to make your teammates better, leadership and confidence. Bird was a trash talker and backed it up. Bird got into fights and took no s**t from any other player. Imagine Lebron and Dr J getting into a fight? Bird didnt care - chided J with 42 to 6 (their HTH points in that game) Bird had an edge to his game, he was mean andcold blooded - I dont see Lebron w that same killer instinct. Bird also played huge in the clutch, demanded the ball at the end of games, and seemed to have a b-ball DNA and IQ. Both are great and I respect anyone's choice, but I have seen both and there is no way I'm choosing Lebron over Bird to start my team.

[mr4speed]

can someone explain WHY larry bird is above lebron in so many people's lists? lebron has now officially dominated him in every category... now hes got 3x rings, 3x FMVP
Because Bird did things that you will never see Lebron duplicate. Like telling Xavier McDaniel to his face how he was going to get the ball,shoot the game winning shot "right here" and there was nothing the X-man could do to stop it". After delivering the game winner Bird laughed at him. Bird created the 50/40/90 club and shot at that level for 2 back to back seasons. He averaged 29.9 pts one year, which stood as the milestone for a long time. Bird won 3 consecutive 3 point shootouts and asked every sharpshooter in the contest "so who's playing for 2nd, cause I'm winning this thing". He publicly called out his teammates and himself for playing like "sissies" vs LA in 84 Finals after game 3 and was a beast in game 4, nose to nose screamng at KAJ and hit the game winner. Game 5 was the heat game and Bird dominated and turned the series around! The game 7 duel vs Dominique was as good as you will ever see. Lebron is a great player with amazing talent, skill and versatility but we are talking apples and oranges. 2 different era's, rules, teammates, conferences etc. Neither player is way better than the other - it is not just adding up all the accolades. Lebron has played in many more games and his collusion cannot b overlooked as manipulative for his sole benefit. Lebron has had spells in Finals where he has disappeared. Bird played as if his life depended on the outcome. These are all intangibles and subjective because they dont show up on a stat sheet, but this is why people who saw Bird play would pick Bird over Lebron. Mental toughness, desire, the ability to make your teammates better, leadership and confidence. Bird was a trash talker and backed it up. Bird got into fights and took no s**t from any other player. Imagine Lebron and Dr J getting into a fight? Bird didnt care - chided J with 42 to 6 (their HTH points in that game) Bird had an edge to his game, he was mean andcold blooded - I dont see Lebron w that same killer instinct. Bird also played huge in the clutch, demanded the ball at the end of games, and seemed to have a b-ball DNA and IQ. Both are great and I respect anyone's choice, but I have seen both and there is no way I'm choosing Lebron over Bird to start my team.

[bizil]

Peak wise, Bron and Bird will be a close debate. For me, I will take Bron even though Bird is the better closer. BUT Bron has showed he can close at historic levels in the biggest moments. He proved that shit back in the day with that epic explosion against the Pistons

But GOAT wise, Bron's third ring put him past Bird in my opinion. And as time goes on, Bron will FURTHER THE GAP between he and Bird GOAT wise. Bron has scored MORE CAREER POINTS than any SF of all time at only 31 years old. He's the most versatile player of all time as well.

[pauk]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

Agree with everything except the passing part, its subjective man, you have to be horribly prejudiced/nostalgic (with a hint of Lebron loathing or something) to think Bird was clearly a better passer... just like that... like there is no argument whatsoever... Reality is you could argue Lebron was a better passer just as much as you can say Bird was better, i prefer not to, its a moot point... its not clear, there is no gap... the facts / eye tests support both... either you are prejudiced or clearly have not seen Lebron enough...

The safest thing to say is that both were justly skilled passers....

Whatever the case may be the level of their passing ability is according to me top 5-10, except for Magic Johnson i havent seen anybody in NBA history to CLEARLY have better passing skill than Bird or Lebron.... I mean the library of high difficulty array of passes i have personally seen Bird & Lebron manufacture is probably the most titanic, only behind Magic...

Magic, Kidd, Maravich, Nash, Bird, Lebron are the best passers ive ever seen (Ginobili might be up there aswell)... im talking about raw passing skills here, not assists / padding assists as a starting pass-first style point-guard a la Rondo... these guys could thread the needle from any angle, with difficulty, accuracy, consistency, magnitude and utmost flash like nobody else, you could make a 10 hour youtube highlight of them just making INSANE passes....

As far as careers/accolades go, i think Lebron might have an edge, sooner or later, by the time he retires, its inevitable... Personally i prefer Larry Bird as a player though, its a shooter thing, with a hint of nostalgia... just an acquired taste, i mean i would rather watch prime Reggie Miller play instead of Michael Jordan... :P

[Meticode]

Personally it's pretty obvious LeBron is over Bird now after the Cavaliers championship against the greatest regular season team ever. Beforehand it was debatable, but now it's not even a question in my mind. LeBron has solidified himself as a future NBA legend.

[warriorfan]

Personally it's pretty obvious LeBron is over Bird now after the Cavaliers championship against the greatest regular season team ever. Beforehand it was debatable, but now it's not even a question in my mind. LeBron has solidified himself as a future NBA legend.
Golden State's three best defenders: Draymond Green(team's best defender), Andrew Bogut(team's only rim protector), and Andre Iguodala(prior year's FMVP) were all out of commission due to injury or suspension under dubious circumstances. The team that LeBron beat in the Finals does not accurately represent the record setting team that won 73 games during the regular season.

[MaxPlayer]

Water = wet

Sky = blue

[Da_Realist]

Bird was a better outside shooter, midrange shooter, post scorer, post passer, outlet passer, and rebounder. Lebron is a better defensive player in general and as unstoppable a player s there has ever been in transition and gets to the basket better when he chooses to. Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

This.

[aj1987]

Erm, no. During the earlier part of their careers Magic and Bird were clearly better - they were getting GOAT talks, especially Bird. And later on Jordan came and it basically became a wrap.
Hakeem and Malone would be in the GOAT conversation, if they had teams as loaded as Magic's and Bird's.

[PP34Deuce]

Im hearing more "nostalgia stories" from Bird supports but it doesn't escape the fact Lebron James has replaced him as the best SF of all time.

People reference how Bird could tell people where he would shoot and that he would do it. Lebron could tell most defenders he's going to run to a spot and they still can't beat him because he's faster.

the other arguement has been most people have always felt Magic was a better overall player than Bird. Lebron is Magicish with MJ and Dominique Wilkins traits.

He's a better player. Most NBA all time greats have even said that.

His only hurdles are MJ, Kareem, and Magic. His debatable hurdles are Tim Duncan, Kobe, and Hakeem.

[ArbitraryWater]

and Bird's '81 ring was pretty crappy too... no idea how he got that one, when he didnt even take it to the next level until his fourth year.

[Steven Kerry]

Im hearing more "nostalgia stories" from Bird supports but it doesn't escape the fact Lebron James has replaced him as the best SF of all time.

I don't believe it.

[aj1987]

I don't believe it.
Don't believe what? LeBron has better stats, better/equal accolades, better advanced stats, higher career totals, etc.. LeBron has Bird beat at almost everything and that was prior to the '16 ring.

[colts19]

Sure, but not to the extent that you see today - fast breaks from that time period were much more passing-oriented.

MVP or not, Bird played great in '81 Finals when it mattered most. Max's MVP was a bit of an anomaly and the product of how votes were cast back then. Anyone who analyzed the series from today's statistical context could easily determine which player had the greatest impact.

I watched that series and I can tell you that without a doubt Bird had a bigger impact than Maxwell. His passing and rebounding alone should have made him the MVP. Most of Cornbread's scores call from shoot a 1 foot shot after a Bird pass.

[colts19]

Im hearing more "nostalgia stories" from Bird supports but it doesn't escape the fact Lebron James has replaced him as the best SF of all time.

People reference how Bird could tell people where he would shoot and that he would do it. Lebron could tell most defenders he's going to run to a spot and they still can't beat him because he's faster.

the other arguement has been most people have always felt Magic was a better overall player than Bird. Lebron is Magicish with MJ and Dominique Wilkins traits.

He's a better player. Most NBA all time greats have even said that.

His only hurdles are MJ, Kareem, and Magic. His debatable hurdles are Tim Duncan, Kobe, and Hakeem.

Magic was not considered the better player until Bird started having injuries. Bird was clearly the better player their first 6 or 7 years in the league and was considered the best player ever by most. The rest is revisionist history.

[colts19]

Agree with everything except the passing part, its subjective man, you have to be horribly prejudiced/nostalgic (with a hint of Lebron loathing or something) to think Bird was clearly a better passer... just like that... like there is no argument whatsoever... Reality is you could argue Lebron was a better passer just as much as you can say Bird was better, i prefer not to, its a moot point... its not clear, there is no gap... the facts / eye tests support both... either you are prejudiced or clearly have not seen Lebron enough...

The safest thing to say is that both were justly skilled passers....

Whatever the case may be the level of their passing ability is according to me top 5-10, except for Magic Johnson i havent seen anybody in NBA history to CLEARLY have better passing skill than Bird or Lebron.... I mean the library of high difficulty array of passes i have personally seen Bird & Lebron manufacture is probably the most titanic, only behind Magic...

Magic, Kidd, Maravich, Nash, Bird, Lebron are the best passers ive ever seen (Ginobili might be up there aswell)... im talking about raw passing skills here, not assists / padding assists as a starting pass-first style point-guard a la Rondo... these guys could thread the needle from any angle, with difficulty, accuracy, consistency, magnitude and utmost flash like nobody else, you could make a 10 hour youtube highlight of them just making INSANE passes....

As far as careers/accolades go, i think Lebron might have an edge, sooner or later, by the time he retires, its inevitable... Personally i prefer Larry Bird as a player though, its a shooter thing, with a hint of nostalgia... just an acquired taste, i mean i would rather watch prime Reggie Miller play instead of Michael Jordan... :P

I pretty much agree with all of this. I think the one advantage Bird had in passing was that he seemed like a more natural and rhythmic passer. Its just something you had to see to really understand. Plus Bird really played as a power forward more than as a small forward. He didn't have the ball in his hand as much as Bron, so the amount of great passes he made while not being ball dominate was pretty amazing. I prefer Birds game but I put Bron up high on the all time list also.

I think Bron biggest advantage was that he didn't have to play against the bad boy pistons. That front line would have left Bron crying. Bird was just tougher.

[Hoopz2332]

repost from another thread

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/bird_vs_james2.jpg


lebron basically trumps Bird in all advances stats and the only raw stat he's not better in is rebs which can be explained by pace


trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7



.....lets not even get stated on defense which tips the scale waaayy to lebrons side

[Hoopz2332]

can someone explain WHY larry bird is above lebron in so many people's lists? lebron has now officially dominated him in every category... now hes got 3x rings, 3x FMVP

Bill Simmons and reggie miller are both Larry stans ad they have Lebron higher now all time

Any Given Wednesday with Bill Simmons: LeBron on track to become the GOAT (HBO)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCu2C6_4iQ



Reggie Miller Kicks Larry Bird Out of His All-Time Top-5 for LeBron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fCKlHZt5II


...lebron is now the consensus best small forward ever

[Hoopz2332]

Bird's peak - three straight MVPs followed by back-to-back 50-40-90 seasons during one of the league's most competitive eras - remains better.

As a player, he was a superior...

- Passer



Lebron has the passing edge on Bird. Every pass Bird could make, lebron could make but it's not true for the reverse.

http://i.gyazo.com/677f3bfc2a2221496c4fa76a725c0d68.gif

http://giant.gfycat.com/FrigidWellwornBighornsheep.gif

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2598929/lemvpgoathofjames_medium.gif


http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2675253/lepass2_medium.gif

[ILLsmak]

Id say Bird was a better basketball player largely due to how easily his game meshed with other talent....but that Lebron has had a better career largely due to health and circumstances. People have so much trouble with that concept for some reason.....

yea...

-Smak

[Lebronxrings]

bird is a great player... defintely a top 8 player all time.

but lebron is a top 3 of all time

3rd>8th

[Lebron23]

bird is a great player... defintely a top 8 player all time.

but lebron is a top 3 of all time

3rd>8th


This

[Meticode]

Golden State's three best defenders: Draymond Green(team's best defender), Andrew Bogut(team's only rim protector), and Andre Iguodala(prior year's FMVP) were all out of commission due to injury or suspension under dubious circumstances. The team that LeBron beat in the Finals does not accurately represent the record setting team that won 73 games during the regular season.

As Curry said, no excuses. Iggy played in all the games, he played in 5 of them almost injury free. Bogut played in 6 games until his injury, Green played in 6 of 7 games. Warriors had a 3-1 lead with 2 games left at home.

[Mayday Malone]

There is literally no way to compare the two. Bird was just, Bird, and Lebron is playing a different game. You cannot compare the two.

In Bird's age: Tighter defense, no zone, handchecking, charter flights to Milwaukee, San Antonio, you know, the real shit states back then.

Parish. Picked up in a f'in trade. One of Red's last gasps.
McHale? Who wanted him? Tell me one GM that wanted him, and was willing to trade up for him.

When has Lebron completely turned a franchise around, based on his presence alone. Especially when nobody saw it coming?

MVP? Three years in a row. In the league's prime. Basketball was never better than it was from 1983 through 1988.

The death of Len Bias: If he would have played for the C's until the day Larry retired, they would have won at least three more. Larry would have so many assists as a part of a SF and PF rotation with Bias that he'd break all of the records. McHale would have been MVP as a 6th man, which he really was meant to be all along.

Lebron has always had the best in the league playing with him. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love (the C's put a parade on just to get him.) Shaq, Wade, Bosh, Ilhiccups, you name it.

The difference between Larry and Lebron is the fact that Lebron is not a basketball mind. Larry was without comparison. Not even Magic could beat him, and he was deathly afraid of him.

[KirbyPls]

There is literally no way to compare the two. Bird was just, Bird, and Lebron is playing a different game. You cannot compare the two.

In Bird's age: Tighter defense, no zone, handchecking, charter flights to Milwaukee, San Antonio, you know, the real shit states back then.

Parish. Picked up in a f'in trade. One of Red's last gasps.
McHale? Who wanted him? Tell me one GM that wanted him, and was willing to trade up for him.

When has Lebron completely turned a franchise around, based on his presence alone. Especially when nobody saw it coming?

MVP? Three years in a row. In the league's prime. Basketball was never better than it was from 1983 through 1988.

The death of Len Bias: If he would have played for the C's until the day Larry retired, they would have won at least three more. Larry would have so many assists as a part of a SF and PF rotation with Bias that he'd break all of the records. McHale would have been MVP as a 6th man, which he really was meant to be all along.

Lebron has always had the best in the league playing with him. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love (the C's put a parade on just to get him.) Shaq, Wade, Bosh, Ilhiccups, you name it.

The difference between Larry and Lebron is the fact that Lebron is not a basketball mind. Larry was without comparison. Not even Magic could beat him, and he was deathly afraid of him.

2014-2015 season most recently.

The rest of your post? I'm impressed Warriorsfan is old enough to have watched Cheers. :cheers:

[Hoopz2332]

There is literally no way to compare the two. Bird was just, Bird, and Lebron is playing a different game. You cannot compare the two.

In Bird's age: Tighter defense, no zone, handchecking, charter flights to Milwaukee, San Antonio, you know, the real shit states back then.



.


:roll: they fouled harder but they really didn't play and defense in the 80s.

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron > Bird


And that's the bottom line because Bigsmoke said so

[CuterThanRubio]

There is literally no way to compare the two. Bird was just, Bird, and Lebron is playing a different game. You cannot compare the two.

In Bird's age: Tighter defense, no zone, handchecking, charter flights to Milwaukee, San Antonio, you know, the real shit states back then.

Parish. Picked up in a f'in trade. One of Red's last gasps.
McHale? Who wanted him? Tell me one GM that wanted him, and was willing to trade up for him.

When has Lebron completely turned a franchise around, based on his presence alone. Especially when nobody saw it coming?

MVP? Three years in a row. In the league's prime. Basketball was never better than it was from 1983 through 1988.

The death of Len Bias: If he would have played for the C's until the day Larry retired, they would have won at least three more. Larry would have so many assists as a part of a SF and PF rotation with Bias that he'd break all of the records. McHale would have been MVP as a 6th man, which he really was meant to be all along.

Lebron has always had the best in the league playing with him. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love (the C's put a parade on just to get him.) Shaq, Wade, Bosh, Ilhiccups, you name it.

The difference between Larry and Lebron is the fact that Lebron is not a basketball mind. Larry was without comparison. Not even Magic could beat him, and he was deathly afraid of him.

Please give up on this alt before you waste anymore time

[Duncan21formvp]

Definitely not firmly above Bird. He may be close to Bird but not better.

[TheImmortal]

Yeah I take back what I said, it's definitely debatable.


Bare in mind at that time we weren't aware of the Bosch incident. The enhancements should absolutely factor in. Bran isn't top 50 without it. Fact.

[aj1987]

Yeah I take back what I said, it's definitely debatable.


Bare in mind at that time we weren't aware of the Bosch incident. The enhancements should absolutely factor in. Bran isn't top 50 without it. Fact.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Eat shit and jump off a cliff, loser.


Definitely not firmly above Bird. He may be close to Bird but not better.
Except for the fact that LeBron is a top 3 GOAT and significantly better than Bird.

[Duncan21formvp]

Bird won mutiple titles for a franchise that drafted him, Lebron didn't do that. He also won bronze medals for America.