What does Kyrie Irving's 2016 playoff run do for his standing in the league?

[RedBlackAttack]

You guys on this board probably knew this thread was coming. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a little extra happy that Kyrie had such a huge role in snatching this championship from the Warriors.

Before I get into the numbers, I want to preface it by saying that I will always have a soft spot for guys like Kyrie and Tristan because they were here during the lean years. While reporters like Windhorst did their best to shake Kyrie into saying he wanted out or get overly frustrated because of the losing, he always maintained that he wanted to spend his career in Cleveland and help build a winner here.

Before anyone had any clue LeBron was coming back or we were trading for Love, Kyrie signed a max extension with the Cavs.

That, along with his aesthetically beautiful style of basketball and seemingly limitless ceiling has made him my favorite player on a team of "favorites."

So, on a day where LeBron is rightly being given back his crown (which I never thought he lost), let's take a closer look at Batman to LeBron's Superman.

Kyrie just turned 24 in late March. He spent his entire offseason, training camp, preseason, and the first part of the regular season getting physically back to where he needed to be.

He took criticism all along the way, too, as if people just expected him to step back onto the hardwood while everyone else is in midseason form and be an All NBA player again immediately.

Hell, he had to hear all last year that the Cavs were somehow in better position to beat the Warriors predominantly because of his injury. The guy never gets a pass, and yet he answers the bell in big situations in a way that very few players in the league do, let alone young guys.

Round By Round Statistics

Round 1 vs. Detroit (Reggie Jackson)
27.5 points on 47/47/75
4.8 assists
2.3 rebounds
1.3 steals
1.5 turnovers
Close-out game highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNg7xho3oW8)

Round 2 vs. Atlanta (Jeff Teague / Dennis Schroder)
21.3 points on 48/67/87
6.3 assists
1.5 rebounds
1.3 steals
1.8 turrnovers
Close-out Game Highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7T2z_GEHIY)

Eastern Conference Finals vs. Toronto (Kyle Lowry)
24.2 points on 48/30/88
4.5 assists
3.3 rebounds
1.8 steals
2.8 turnovers
Close-out Game Highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjNtPROOVio)

NBA Finals vs. Golden State (Steph Curry)
27.1 points on 47/41/94
3.9 assists
3.9 rebounds
2.1 steals
2.6 turnovers
Game 7 Highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0LosWzLsn4)


Final 2016 Overall Playoff Averages:
25.2 points on 48/44/88
4.7 assists
3.0 rebounds
1.7 steals
2.3 turnovers
PER: 24.4


Notice that, in every close-out game, he stepped up big time. There wasn't one series that the Cavs ended on this run that didn't end with Kyrie making huge plays down the stretch.

And, finally, there's this image...

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0Gqe2PIberuUjLKU/giphy.gif



So, what's say you, ISH... how did Kyrie's playoff run and specifically his Finals performance change your view of him as a player, if at all? Over four years younger than Steph Curry, how does his career now project? Where does he stand amongst the game's elite?

[Im Still Ballin]

Top 10 player no questions asked

Maybe top 5, because that was a HELL of a playoff run

It goes

LeBron
Westbrook
Durant
Curry

Well that's the top 4, where does Irving come in? Hell you could make a case for top 5 sure... Is he over CP3? Yeah probably.

Will repeat... HELL of a playoff run

[NBAGOAT]

well I think he's clearly going be considered a top 5 pg next year and most like 4th after Curry, Westbrook, and Paul. He could be better than some of those guys if he continues his postseason play. Definitely a chance at a HOF career but that's too early to tell. This may be going way too far but a big dark horse MVP candidate if James declines.

[JohnMax]

Curry

big dropoff

Lebron
Durant
Kyrie
Paul
Howard
Towns

[LilEddyCurry]

Curry

big dropoff

Lebron
Durant
Kyrie
Paul
Howard
Towns
Did you watch the playoffs this year?

[raprap]

Top 10 player for sure now. I was one of the doubters.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Curry is still the best in the league

He just isnt as elite without Bogut

[NuggetsFan]

I've always had a huge issue with Irving. He came into the league extremely polished and skilled for a player his age. He needed to work on his D and cutting out the turnovers. He's done that for the most part. His man to man D while inconsistent is vastly improved. He still gets lost on screens and switches pretty badly and has the occasional moments of being a liability but nowhere near as bad when he was a rookie.

In terms of playmaking the assists don't really matter to me. He has tunnel vision, over dribbles, and comes off the P&R strictly looking to score. Misses passes the vast majority of PG's wouldn't miss, even ones like Lillard, Arenas, Rose who are primarily scorers themselves.

With all the negative out of the way he's an elite finisher, elite handles, elite shooter, and overall just has an elite scoring skill set. My issue has been he's never consistently been an elite scorer. He's had great efficiency and good volume with some explosive games but never topped 22ish points per game. So a guy that only stands out as a scorer without the elite scoring production? Hard to rate him above certain guys. This playoffs/finals he finally did it. He had elite scoring production. Used his scoring skillset to produce like one of the best scorers in the league. Not for a game or for a week, but an entire playoffs. So I'm satisfied assuming he carries that into next season and beyond.

Still difficult to toss him up against guys like Lowry/Wall who have nowhere near the talent around them and have to play as the best players on there team. Irving is such a fun, flashy, entertaining player similar to a Iverson I think people tend to overrate him and especially after these finals. Curry, Westbrook, Paul are all clearly above him to me. John Wall/Lillard/Irving/Lowry next but if Irving sustains his playoff play than he'll be in the next tier with Curry/Westbrook/Paul.

[ShawkFactory]

It was an unbelievable playoff run, and he completely proved me wrong and showed that he is absolutely a superstar in this league.

However, I need to see him be healthy and put together a full, dominant season before I can legitimately crown him as a top 5 player. As of right now, I can't on good faith put him above any of Lebron, Curry, Westbrook, Durant, or Leonard. I think he's cemented himself right up there with that next tier though.

I also need to see that defensive effort he showed sustain. Before the last couple games of the finals I was sure that when his shot isn't falling, he doesn't really offer much else. His defensive effort was incredible, but I still need him to show me that he can still impact the game when he's a little bit off.

As for his ceiling...who's to say. As Lebron ages, I see him being an easy 27-28 type guy with a LOT of big performances in the playoffs. Sure fire HOFer and top 30(?) all time player if he doesn't sustain any more injuries.

I'm excited to see how he and Lebron grow from here.

[Megabox!]

Curry is still the best in the league

He just isnt as elite without Bogut
Soooo he isn't as elite without illegal screens then

[ShawkFactory]

Curry is still the best in the league

He just isnt as elite without Bogut
:oldlol:

[red1]

Kyrie is unbelievable. Top 5-8 player. The only players I put over him for sure are bron, kd, westbrook and curry. Even that is hard to say now after watching the way he outplayed curry so consistently.

GOAT-tier combination of handles, shooting and finishing ability in a pointguard.

[greymatter]

Not much.

He's not an elite passer at his position. He's basically an undersized 2 guard who likes to score. He's an amazing scorer given his lack of physical talent.

He doesn't have the athletic talent of Russell Westbrook and the ability to consistently collapse defenses, so it's highly unlikely that he could suddenly increase his APG the way WB did. The only thing Kyrie can improve is the mental aspect of the game and learning to play smarter.

I can see him learning to improve his offensive efficiency by taking smarter shots, but he'll almost certainly never give you more than 20-23ppg, 3.5rpg, and 5apg while playing mediocre to below average defense.

[r0drig0lac]

Soooo he isn't as elite without illegal screens then
this

[Fiasco]

It's hard to evaluate him right now without coming off as a prisoner in the moment, I think. Despite the notion that he's 'awakened' as a basketball player I see him as who he always was: a versatile scorer that steps up in close games.

There's little doubt he's one of the best guards in the Association. Just don't see a successful team being built around him, which excludes him out of my own current Top 10.

[Asukal]

3rd best PG behind Curry and Westbrook. The only thing holding him back is bran ball. If he is allowed to run the offense, he would become much much more. :bowdown: :applause:

0 FMVP votes while doing all that is proof of too much bran d1ck svcking. Unbelievable.... :facepalm

[noob cake]

4th best PG. Top 15 player.

In 2-3 years near his prime, probably top 5 player, best PG.

[Smoke117]

He'll never take a team anywhere as the best player on the team, but he's a great 2nd best player next to the right player. (like lebron...if it was say...Harden...it'd be a disaster)

Curry, Westbrook, and CP3 are all still significantly better players.

[houston]

Due ain't even better than Dame Lillard

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lillard
Wall

the top 5 so far

[RedBlackAttack]

The playoffs and, especially, the Finals... that's where legends are made. I don't know what will happen in the regular season next year. Let's not forget, the last time he played a full regular season he was an All NBA selection.

But, after having watched him for five years now, I just know that when the lights turn up, his game goes to another level.

On teams of nothing but stars, he kicks his game up. Team USA was arguably an underdog for the first time since professionals started playing in international play back in 2014. And, on a team that included Steph Curry, James Harden, Anthony Davis, Klay Thompson, etc., Kyrie was the Tournament MVP. He saved his best stuff for the biggest games.

So, how do you weigh that against someone who maybe averages 1 or 2 more points a game than him in the regular season? To me, you'd rather have the guy who you know isn't going to shy away from the moment. You want the guy who is actually going to be better the further along you get.

Dame Lillard is a career 40% shooter in the playoffs. Harden? 42%.


4th best PG. Top 15 player.

In 2-3 years near his prime, probably top 5 player, best PG.

This is where I'm probably at with it. He's the leader of the next tier after Curry/Paul/WB, but people seem to not recognize that he isn't contemporaries with those guys. Even players like Wall and Lillard are older than Kyrie. Michael Carter-Williams and Reggie Jackson are older than Kyrie.

He was the youngest player on the whole Cavs team. And, when the lights got intensely hot, he was consistently the calmest... on a basketball court with LeBron James, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, etc.

That says a lot.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Best Player: LeBron James

Next Group: Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook

Those are the only players better than him without a doubt. He's in a group with a bunch of others (Lillard, Green, Harden, Davis etc.) after those guys.

[noob cake]

Lillard homers need to GTFO.

He doesn't belong in the same convo as Irving. He is not in the same tier as Harden, Davis and Green.

[moongaze]

Teams are going to fear him more and teams are going to fear the duo of Kyrie and lebron. Theyve shown that as a duo they can win a championship and that they are probably the two best scorers on the same team. Before, it was a big 3. But now it's a gigantic 2 with great pieces around them.

The guy just completely outplayed the unanimous MVP and held him to career low shooting. This is something lillard,wall,westbrook and Paul couldn't do. The playoffs are about matchups. Kyrie has just shown that he can outplay ANYONE including everyone in his position in a 7 game series. That is the definition of a superstar

[DukeDelonte13]

He's not the best passer, he's not the best scorer, and he certainly isn't the best defender, but he's the most clutch PG in the game hands down.

[Meticode]

He surprised me. He really did. I thought his style of play would hurt the team in the long-run in a 7 game series, but he bailed the team out time after time after time. Also multiple times in game 7 there was times where Golden State looked like they would pull away and he would hit a huge shot to where the team would be like, "We got this."

I'm glad I was wrong.

[CTbasketball92]

Teams are going to fear him more and teams are going to fear the duo of Kyrie and lebron. Theyve shown that as a duo they can win a championship and that they are probably the two best scorers on the same team. Before, it was a big 3. But now it's a gigantic 2 with great pieces around them.

The guy just completely outplayed the unanimous MVP and held him to career low shooting. This is something lillard,wall,westbrook and Paul couldn't do. The playoffs are about matchups. Kyrie has just shown that he can outplay ANYONE including everyone in his position in a 7 game series. That is the definition of a superstar


I agree with this, and I'd say Kyrie is a top 12-15 player and a top 4 point guard, which is where coaches, players, GM's and scouts ranked him as a point guard last year. Despite his limitations as a conventional PG (because there are so many successful conventional pg's around, right?) his offensive skillset makes him a guard that destroy any defense.

I'd love to see what Kyrie could do with a good team, but not another ball dominant player.

[Dray n Klay]

3rd best PG behind Curry and Westbrook. The only thing holding him back is bran ball. If he is allowed to run the offense, he would become much much more. :bowdown: :applause:

0 FMVP votes while doing all that is proof of too much bran d1ck svcking. Unbelievable.... :facepalm

Averaging 27 ppg is being held back? :biggums:

[Smoke117]

Irving is basically in the perfect situation for him...he's asked to score and pretty much nothing else. (which is all he wants to do) He plays with the best player in the league and is allowed that luxury because Lebron does so much. He also doesn't have to deal with any pressure...you guys are crazy if you think Kyrie could lead a team anywhere as a team's best player.

[FatComputerNerd]

Kyrie > Curry.

I've said it before but Kyrie is AI 2.0 but with the pure shot of Curry to go with it.

[SpaceJammeR]

Irving is basically in the perfect situation for him...he's asked to score and pretty much nothing else. (which is all he wants to do) He plays with the best player in the league and is allowed that luxury because Lebron does so much. He also doesn't have to deal with any pressure...you guys are crazy if you think Kyrie could lead a team anywhere as a team's best player.

i agree. he's a great player but he doesn't have as much pressure as curry and lebron.

[Fire Colangelo]

I want to see him do this for an entire season... not just a playoff run.

[CTbasketball92]

The playoffs and, especially, the Finals... that's where legends are made. I don't know what will happen in the regular season next year. Let's not forget, the last time he played a full regular season he was an All NBA selection.

But, after having watched him for five years now, I just know that when the lights turn up, his game goes to another level.

On teams of nothing but stars, he kicks his game up. Team USA was arguably an underdog for the first time since professionals started playing in international play back in 2014. And, on a team that included Steph Curry, James Harden, Anthony Davis, Klay Thompson, etc., Kyrie was the Tournament MVP. He saved his best stuff for the biggest games.

So, how do you weigh that against someone who maybe averages 1 or 2 more points a game than him in the regular season? To me, you'd rather have the guy who you know isn't going to shy away from the moment. You want the guy who is actually going to be better the further along you get.

Dame Lillard is a career 40% shooter in the playoffs. Harden? 42%.



This is where I'm probably at with it. He's the leader of the next tier after Curry/Paul/WB, but people seem to not recognize that he isn't contemporaries with those guys. Even players like Wall and Lillard are older than Kyrie. Michael Carter-Williams and Reggie Jackson are older than Kyrie.

He was the youngest player on the whole Cavs team. And, when the lights got intensely hot, he was consistently the calmest... on a basketball court with LeBron James, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, etc.

That says a lot.


I think Kyrie is a much more talented player than Lillard. He's more functionally athletic with his first step, second jump, body control and coordination, and he shoots about 10% better from the midrange on top of that. I also think he's a bit more consistent as a three point shooter, though I don't think he gets quite as hot as often from long range.

What Lillard has over Irving is the fact that he led the Trail Blazers to the playoffs in the western conference this year with a bunch of young players. While he did have an all star sort of talent in CJ McCollum and the coach of the year, that is still really impressive. Also, Lillard's best statistical year is a bit better than Irving. Where Lillard sort of comes up short to me is what he does once he gets to the playoffs. Pretty sure he was getting abused by CP3 and Mike Conley before injuries, and I think i remember Tony Parker easily besting him as well. He also shot like 37% against GSW. I just don't think Lillard can outplay/match any point guard the way Irving has kind of shown he can. Simply put, Irving has another gear.

We won't get to see Irving lead a team as 1A, but 1B isn't to be discounted. It's still legit, and he mostly played solid defense throughout the playoffs -- and he has the physical tools to improve.

I don't know if Irving is a "true Pg" or a combo or whatever, but one thing is for sure -- he can absolutely help any team, and if he's playing against you, you are going to have a ton of trouble. He's the real deal, and I think he's a top 10-15 level player, maybe right around 12. If he can post a statline like his playoffs this year -- 24-25 ppg, 48% 42% from 3 and maybe 5 assists and solid defense, he's for sure a top 12 player.

If he goes to Rio, he could be the MVP on a team with Durant.

[WadeBronDonJuan]

Not much.

He's not an elite passer at his position. He's basically an undersized 2 guard who likes to score. He's an amazing scorer given his lack of physical talent.

He doesn't have the athletic talent of Russell Westbrook and the ability to consistently collapse defenses, so it's highly unlikely that he could suddenly increase his APG the way WB did. The only thing Kyrie can improve is the mental aspect of the game and learning to play smarter.

I can see him learning to improve his offensive efficiency by taking smarter shots, but he'll almost certainly never give you more than 20-23ppg, 3.5rpg, and 5apg while playing mediocre to below average defense.

Lack of physical talent? WTF? haha.

[Mikaiel]

Before, it was a big 3. But now it's a gigantic 2

I'm gonna steal this sentence when talking about that championship run if you don't mind :cheers:

[CTbasketball92]

i agree. he's a great player but he doesn't have as much pressure as curry and lebron.


Honestly, I just can't see any way Kyrie plays as poorly as Curry just did. He's just to explosive and versatile to be shutdown like that. Curry, if anything, doesn't have much pressure on him if you think about it. He's hidden on defense, Draymond averages more assists, he's got a bunch of other role players you can't leave open, the league's best coach ... etc. Unlike LeBron, Curry never has to do anything transcendent in the playoffs. In fact, the Warriors built leads with him on the bench. All Curry had to do is play within two notches of his normal play and GSW probably wins. Curry simply couldn't do it, and given how much more well-rounded and better coached GSW is than the Cavs this year and last year, you have to be disappointed in Curry's performances. If he were really a generational player, he'dve beat the cavs in 5 last year, and GSW would've beat the Cavs this year. But instead, he couldn't even average 25 ppg because he relies too much on his 3 point shot.

[ClipperRevival]

Irving was simply magnificent in the finals. His "game" is just all that. Unreal iso game and ability to break down set defenders with such ease. He's a true triple threat in that he can attack the basket, pull up from mid-range and hit the 3. So you can't focus on a weakness and have to honor everything. His finishing ability near the rim is up their with the greats. He also has that look. Like he's that good and he knows it and just wants that damn ball come crunch time.

[ArbitraryWater]

I have him at #12 right now, behind Cousins.