ESPN Insider request: Will LeBron pass MJ for GOAT??

[ClipperRevival]

Thanks in advance.

And big kudos to LeBron. He showed up and had one of the GOAT finals ever and took his all time rankings up a few notches. :applause:

[Dray n Klay]

OP spent the ENTIRE last 2 weeks critiquing LeBrons mental fortitude and saying he had no heart, no clutch gene, no jumpshot, shyed away from the moment, had no guts.





Must HURT to see Bron Bron dominating his way to 3 FMVPs :lol





Now all of a sudden OP wants to act like a rational bball fan giving lebron credit? :lebronamazed: :hammertime: :hammertime:


The last 24 hours must have been HARD on you :yaohappy:

[Nilocon165]

Ayeeeeeee appreciate the love from the jordan fam:cheers:

[plowking]

Go read up on MJ OP. You still don't even know enough about him.

Let me know if you ever work out who guarded MJ in the 96 finals. :oldlol:

[KingPush]

I dont have insider, but no he wont. But thats okay, 2nd best is still wide open for him

[ClipperRevival]

OP spent the ENTIRE last 2 weeks critiquing LeBrons mental fortitude and saying he had no heart, no clutch gene, no jumpshot, shyed away from the moment, had no guts.





Must HURT to see Bron Bron dominating his way to 3 FMVPs :lol





Now all of a sudden OP wants to act like a rational bball fan giving lebron credit? :lebronamazed: :hammertime: :hammertime:


The last 24 hours must have been HARD on you :yaohappy:

I call it like I see it. His game 4 performance was awful despite the numbers. He turned it around and played great after that game. If you want to dig deeper than that, all power to ya.

[hateraid]

Wait....is ClipperRevival = Straight_Ballin?

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Wait....is ClipperRevival = Straight_Ballin?

:lol

Nah, that's an insult to compare OP to a poster of that caliber

[bigkingsfan]

http://www.filedropper.com/islebronjamesmovingaheadofkareemabdul-jabbarmichaeljordaninall-timerankings-nba

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, hes a poor man's Magic Johnson and wont even surpass Magic.

[inclinerator]

Nope, hes a poor man's Magic Johnson and wont even surpass Magic.
look around u, most ppls list have him above magic already
even the haters

[Kiddlovesnets]

look around u, most ppls list have him above magic already
even the haters

Unfortunately I see the opposite, only lebronstans have Lebron over Magic, even the sane Lebron fans know Lebron is still poor man's Magic.

[3ball]

.
Lebron has half the FMVP's and half the rings - so he needs to redo his entire career AGAIN to match Jordan's playoff accomplishments.. I predict he won't..

What a time!!!


http://cos.h-cdn.co/assets/15/29/1437250082-the-carleton.gif

[LeBird]

.
Lebron has half the FMVP's and half the rings - so he needs to redo his entire career AGAIN to match Jordan's playoff accomplishments.. I predict he won't..

What a time!!!


So Bill Russell >>>>> Jordan ?
Kareem too apparently. :cheers:

[3ball]

So Bill Russell >>>>> Jordan ?
Kareem too apparently. :cheers:


Kareem wasn't the best player on most of his championship teams and Russell didn't play in the modern era.

Otoh, Jordan was the best player on all his championship teams AND he played in the modern era - furthermore, he played in the UNSPACED phase of the modern era, which is a tougher time period than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.

Specifically, it's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their teams take 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (the Bulls took 5 threes per game in 1991).

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing and lower physicality.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry....

[sportjames23]

Kareem wasn't the best player on most of his championship teams and Russell didn't play in the modern era.

Otoh, Jordan was the best player on all his championship teams AND he played in the modern era - furthermore, he played in the UNSPACED phase of the modern era, which is a tougher time period than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.

Specifically, it's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their teams take 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (the Bulls took 5 threes per game in 1991).

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing and lower physicality.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry....


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4294670/mj-shrugs-shoulders-o.gif

[riseagainst]

LeBron is already 2nd all time. He's just a hair below MJ now. Another MVP next year and another finals appearance and he'll surpass him.

[Stringer Bell]

I don't think he will reach Jordan's level. He's obviously a great player, maybe the greatest since Jordan and a consensus (not just ESPN) top 5 all-time when his career is done.

Jordan's off-the-ball play and more consistent shot (particularly at mid-range) is probably the main reason I have him above LeBron. Surely his pathological need to win at everything helped him as a player.

[Carbine]

It's absolutely SHOCKING to me how this is become a discussion right now when Jordan is so revered and he has a decisive edge in accolades and was a better player.

This could be a legit discussion at the end of LeBrons career but right now as it stands currently, it's a slap in the face to Jordan.

[Carbine]

For example, you have a guy in this very thread who legit thinks with another MVP and just a finals appearance he will SURPASS Michael.

This is insane to me. It doesn't make any sense at all.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's absolutely SHOCKING to me how this is become a discussion right now when Jordan is so revered and he has a decisive edge in accolades and was a better player.

This could be a legit discussion at the end of LeBrons career but right now as it stands currently, it's a slap in the face to Jordan.

why? Theyre already close in seasons, so you dont need to wait much longer.

[bond10]

It's absolutely SHOCKING to me how this is become a discussion right now when Jordan is so revered and he has a decisive edge in accolades and was a better player.

This could be a legit discussion at the end of LeBrons career but right now as it stands currently, it's a slap in the face to Jordan.

They gotta be trolling. 3peat, got bored, retired, comes back 2 years later and 3peats AGAIN....mind boggling

[Segatti]

comes back 2 years later and 3peats AGAIN....mind boggling

Comes back in a super stacked team and faces an injured Gary Payton and old Stockton in the finals, mind boggling :lol

[pauk]

Need 3 more FMVPs and 1 more MVP just to perhaps get close & tie him, but to pass he will need even more... so i mean, its highly unlikely... he could get maybe 1 more MVP or more... but winning 3 (4 to pass) championships/fmvps (as the man) will be very unlikely....

[ArbitraryWater]

bump

[bond10]

Comes back in a super stacked team and faces an injured Gary Payton and old Stockton in the finals, mind boggling :lol


Oh you wanna play that game? ok let's talk about Lebron championships over the young Thunder, pre-historic Spurs, and an injured GSW. Not to mention his teams are stacked relative to the competition (you know this because everyone knows who's coming to the finals from the east every year since 2011).

[SexSymbol]

He sailed that ship himself with his incredible choking 5 years in a row from 07 to 11, then barely beating SAS after a miracle sequence to extend the series and then played horribly for the next 2 years in the finals.
Sorry, he's great, but MJ, Russell, Kareem are practically untouchable for him at this point

[SexSymbol]

Need 3 more FMVPs and 1 more MVP just to perhaps get close & tie him, but to pass he will need even more... so i mean, its highly unlikely... he could get maybe 1 more MVP or more... but winning 3 (4 to pass) championships/fmvps (as the man) will be very unlikely....
MVPs do not matter in the GOAT discussions

[Hey Yo]

They gotta be trolling. 3peat, got bored, retired, comes back 2 years later and 3peats AGAIN....mind boggling
An habitual gambler getting tired and bored with winning??

DUMB!!





Dude quit on his team in his prime to try to become the next Bo Jackson but instead completely embarrassed himself.

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/files/import/i-17c88e35d55c9abddf91dbac0e136357-0314_large.jpg

[bond10]

An habitual gambler getting tired and bored with winning??

DUMB!!





Dude quit on his team in his prime to try to become the next Bo Jackson but instead completely embarrassed himself.

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/files/import/i-17c88e35d55c9abddf91dbac0e136357-0314_large.jpg


http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-07/news/mn-43272_1_michael-jordan

Yeah, he got bored.

[Hey Yo]

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-07/news/mn-43272_1_michael-jordan

Yeah, he got bored.
"Although Jordan is clearly serious about quitting basketball because he has nothing left to prove, one high-ranking official of the Bulls told The Times:


"In my heart, all I think Michael wants is a year to himself.

"Suppose he gets restless after a year, or just gets bored. How much golf can you play? Michael needs challenges in his life.
He's not sick like Magic Johnson or disabled like Larry Bird. He's just tired."

He got tired and quit on his team while under contract. Then did the same (minus under contract) once he came back.

3 straight Finals and you're tired?? LeBron played just under 47mins in game 7 and avg. 41.7mp in his 6th straight Finals.

Boredom is an excuse for..... "I'm tired"



Wasn't to tired to Baseball though, huh?

[ArbitraryWater]

Yo Hey Yo, hate to ask you directly, but dont you have Insider? :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

I already posted that article once, don't really feel like doing it again cause the 4000 word limit per page makes it a pain in the ass.

Think I posted it on Saturday or Sunday for the 1st guy who asked for it.

[ArbitraryWater]

I already posted that article once, don't really feel like doing it again cause the 4000 word limit per page makes it a pain in the ass.

Think I posted it on Saturday or Sunday for the 1st guy who asked for it.

Nah this is a new one, you probably mean an older request from me I think.. this article is from yesterday. But I feel you on the word limit.

[Hey Yo]

Nah this is a new one, you probably mean an older request from me I think.. this article is from yesterday. But I feel you on the word limit.

"When ESPN's panel voted on the greatest NBA players of all time at midseason, LeBron James finished in third place, behind Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Now it's worth revisiting that list after James won his third Finals MVP in leading his Cleveland Cavaliers to the first comeback from a 3-1 series deficit in NBA Finals history, giving Cleveland its first major professional sports championship since 1954.

What will it take for James to be No. 1? And after this postseason, is he already in second place?

[B]James' r

[Hey Yo]

James' championships added

The goal is to win, and to give your team its best chance to win championships, and that's where James really has stood out.

By the championships added measure I introduced in January, James has put himself on the short list of the most valuable players in history.

Championships added uses Basketball-Reference.com's win shares to estimate how much a player helped his team's chances of winning the title each regular season and playoffs, also factoring in awards for a subjective component.

Because championships added emphasizes peak performance over compiling statistics with longevity, James looks great by this metric. When I ranked players in February, he came in third behind Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

Each additional season, including this one, gives James more opportunities. I estimate based on his win shares and All-NBA First Team selection that he added 0.115 championships during the regular season and another 0.24 during the playoffs -- in other words, this credits James for a quarter of a title based only on his playoff performance, and that might be conservative, given that he posted two of the three best Finals games since 1984 by the game score metric, both in potential elimination games.

There are three components to championships added, and James is moving up in all three: regular season, awards and postseason.

If we look at regular season only, James is fourth, moving ahead of Karl Malone:

Championships Added (Regular Season)

PLAYER CHAMPIONSHIPS ADDED
1. Wilt Chamberlain 3.04
2. Michael Jordan 2.19
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.15
4. LeBron James 1.89
5. Karl Malone 1.63

Based on his four MVP trophies and 10 appearances on the All-NBA First Team (plus two more Second Team nods), James is now second in estimated championships added based on awards:

Awards Championships Added
PLAYER CHAMPIONSHIPS ADDED
1. Michael Jordan 3.05
2. LeBron James 2.83
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2.72
4. Larry Bird 2.26
5. Shaquille O'Neal 2.07

And then there's the playoffs. Adding 2016 puts James atop the list of postseason championships added:

Postseason Championships Added
PLAYER CHAMPIONSHIPS ADDED
1. LeBron James 1.78
2. Michael Jordan 1.67
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1.53
4. Bill Russell 1.52
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1.34

If that seems preposterous, remember that James has now played in more Finals than Jordan. And while it didn't always translate into victories for his team, James' best Finals performances have rated better individually than Jordan's best.

cont.

[Hey Yo]

James also won his three championships in an era with 29 other competitors for the title, as compared to the relatively few teams Russell's Celtics had to beat out (as few as seven in some seasons, as many as 13 in another). Combining all three as I did for my rankings (the average of regular-season and playoff scores, added to the playoffs) brings James to 4.13 championships added in his career, decimal points ahead of Chamberlain and only a little behind Jordan.

Total Championships Added
PLAYER CHAMPIONSHIPS ADDED
1. Michael Jordan 4.29
2. LeBron James 4.13
3. Wilt Chamberlain 4.06
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3.77
5. Bill Russell 2.91

There's still room for debate of the precise order of the top five. Chamberlain's score is still within the margin of error with James. If you favor contributions to winning over individual performance or believe win shares short-change him, Russell could be the pick for No. 2, and Abdul-Jabbar -- the leader by a wide margin in career win shares -- remains the choice of those who believe in longevity over peak performance.

But with another peak James postseason, at the very least this much can be said: There's nobody but Jordan who clearly ranks ahead of him in NBA history. And if and when we vote for all-time #NBArank again, James will be No. 2 on my ballot.

Can James become the GOAT?

Putting James second would leave only one more peak to conquer: Jordan himself, for the title of greatest of all time. From the perspective of championships added, Jordan is within sight. A couple of more seasons like James' standard would push him past Jordan for No. 1.

For some fans, that notion is unthinkable. For those observers, Jordan's perfect 6-0 record in the Finals, and the disappointing finish to James' 2010 and 2011 postseasons, rules out the possibility of a change at the top. But if we're looking for the player who has done the most to give his team the best chance, James is knocking on the door. And the discussion may shift quickly if James can surpass Jordan's career totals in years to come.

For most people, James probably needs at least another championship -- and maybe two more -- to get in the discussion with Jordan. Sunday's win gives him a more realistic path to getting there.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thanks man :applause: :applause:

looks like a for sure better read than the two weeks old one about his finals record

saved

[Straight_Ballin]

Wait....is ClipperRevival = Straight_Ballin?

:lol

What is up with this guy accusing everyone of being my alt? At one point you guys who had teams pissed on by MJ were accusing me of being Jeff. :lol

[ClipperRevival]

Thanks for posting.

But what a terrible article. Putting together a few advanced metrics to measure GOATness? I was hoping for a little more but this is ESPN.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thanks for posting.

But what a terrible article. Putting together a few advanced metrics to measure GOATness? I was hoping for a little more but this is ESPN.

its a good read but its still too much hardcore stat weighted... which is what Pelton does. There are much finer, understandable stats to make your case, but youd have to also use some knowledgable comparisons, Pelton probably not the guy for that kind of writing/info.