We all wanted to be in the NBA. Why didnt we work for it?

[kshutts1]

Its hard to call a lot of this shit genetics.

How much credit do you give to DNA and how much to eating right for 20 years, running, and shooting all day?

What part of his greatness is talent? You dont roll out of bed never having touched a ball and be Ray Allen. Ray Allen is created by blood, sweat, and tears.

Its hard to even define talent. You dont just...have within you basketball ability. It has to be created. You can have....athletic ability. But thats about it. You arent just gonna naturally have the nicest finger roll or be able to break ankles.

None of it comes from genetics.

I know there are musical prodigies but I dont know man...

Some things just arent in your blood. An inside out crossover into a floater in traffic is one of them.

I'm trying to read through this thread before I respond, in case my comments have already been said.

But :biggums: dude. At every level of basketball, or any sport, or any ability/skill for that matter, there are varying degrees of natural ability as well as work ethic and a whole host of other factors.

I promise you that I can take months, or even years, off from shooting a basketball... and go to any HS or low-level college in the country and wipe the floor with the vast majority of players I meet in a shoot-out (not a game). I just have a freakish ability to make shots. I've used my WORK ETHIC to hone my shot, no doubt. But my "starting point" is significantly higher than most.

Hard work can only get you so far.
Natural ability can only get you so far.
Athleticism can only get you so far.

Ray Allen has all 3, in ABUNDANCE. He works harder than 99% of NBA players, who in turn work harder than 99.9% of Americans (in their field, not their respective fields). His natural talent is off the charts. His athleticism is insanely high.
Saying Ray is athletic, or a natural talent, is in no way diminishing his hard work because, in reality, every single NBA player that wants to be worth anything has all 3 attributes at a high level.

Hard work * (natural talent + athleticism/genes) = ceiling. It's up to the player to determine whether or not they reach that, as a player.

Natural talent + athleticism/genes = floor. If someone puts in minimal, to no, work, they will still have those two factors to a varying degree.

[tpols]

Shaq is a perfectly good Ft shooter he just isn't in games. He like all the other awful Ft shooters has a mental block. Remember the Lakers season practice records coming out showing that Dwight shot 82% in practice? That isn't unusual.....



You need to do only one thing to prove that false.

Go to any gym in America with free weights. Watch normal people work out. See people smaller than me benching 200 warming up. Then go check the predraft workout numbers of NBA players. I was benching 185 more times than Curry could in the predraft when I was 16.

Tyreke Evans did it 7 times. I could probably do 225 more times than Curry could do 185. You don't need to believe me. Ask anyone playing high school football what their junior and senior year linebackers bench then get back to me.

If only for being so lanky NBA players are not terribly strong. And Curry is pretty much a high schooler from a physical standpoint. My then 17 year old little cousin Emilio:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/74134470.jpg


http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/67286669.jpg

was outperforming recorded records of Currys physical ability in my damn basement.

He does sets with 225 now and hes 19 and barely even working out anymore.

These are not superhumans.

They are great basketball players. But there are a million NBA level athletes.

If you think Curry is just some physical beast the likes of which doesn't exist outside professional sports go down to Cornell park in Chicago or even Mt.Pleasant in tiny ass Greenville south Carolina and be blown away because it sounds like you have never seen sports outside tv.
Why are you only looking at Curry though? What about the Javale McGee's, Russell Westbrook's, Joe Johnson's, Lebron's, Wade's, Rondo's.. etc. Guys that are getting by on having 7 foot wingspans at 6'1.. and 35 inch verts at 7 feet tall.

Curry is like maybe 10% of NBA players that arent relying on natural gifts and more on having an extremely elite skill set. So if you're a 6'2 guy with decent athleticism you're really competing with the handful of guys that dont have great athleticism but elite skills making your chances even smaller. The athletes are almost always taken first because of their potential.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Shaq is a perfectly good Ft shooter he just isn't in games. He like all the other awful Ft shooters has a mental block. Remember the Lakers season practice records coming out showing that Dwight shot 82% in practice? That isn't unusual.....



You need to do only one thing to prove that false.

Go to any gym in America with free weights. Watch normal people work out. See people smaller than me benching 200 warming up. Then go check the predraft workout numbers of NBA players. I was benching 185 more times than Curry could in the predraft when I was 16.

Tyreke Evans did it 7 times. I could probably do 225 more times than Curry could do 185. You don't need to believe me. Ask anyone playing high school football what their junior and senior year linebackers bench then get back to me.

If only for being so lanky NBA players are not terribly strong. And Curry is pretty much a high schooler from a physical standpoint. My then 17 year old little cousin Emilio:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/74134470.jpg


http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/67286669.jpg

was outperforming recorded records of Currys physical ability in my damn basement.

He does sets with 225 now and hes 19 and barely even working out anymore.

These are not superhumans.

They are great basketball players. But there are a million NBA level athletes.

If you think Curry is just some physical beast the likes of which doesn't exist outside professional sports go down to Cornell park in Chicago or even Mt.Pleasant in tiny ass Greenville south Carolina and be blown away because it sounds like you have never seen sports outside tv.
I think you're underrating natural gifts like hand-eye coordination/reflexes/things that aren't immediately obvious like say vertical and 40 times.

There are likely tons of players who work as hard as they possibly can yet will still never amount to being close to Steve Kerr let alone Steph Curry.

[avonbarksdale]

Shaq is a perfectly good Ft shooter he just isn't in games. He like all the other awful Ft shooters has a mental block. Remember the Lakers season practice records coming out showing that Dwight shot 82% in practice? That isn't unusual.....



You need to do only one thing to prove that false.

Go to any gym in America with free weights. Watch normal people work out. See people smaller than me benching 200 warming up. Then go check the predraft workout numbers of NBA players. I was benching 185 more times than Curry could in the predraft when I was 16.

Tyreke Evans did it 7 times. I could probably do 225 more times than Curry could do 185. You don't need to believe me. Ask anyone playing high school football what their junior and senior year linebackers bench then get back to me.

If only for being so lanky NBA players are not terribly strong. And Curry is pretty much a high schooler from a physical standpoint. My then 17 year old little cousin Emilio:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/74134470.jpg


http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.berecruited.com/photos/athletes/medium/67286669.jpg

was outperforming recorded records of Currys physical ability in my damn basement.

He does sets with 225 now and hes 19 and barely even working out anymore.

These are not superhumans.

They are great basketball players. But there are a million NBA level athletes.

If you think Curry is just some physical beast the likes of which doesn't exist outside professional sports go down to Cornell park in Chicago or even Mt.Pleasant in tiny ass Greenville south Carolina and be blown away because it sounds like you have never seen sports outside tv.


you're so stupid its unbelieveable. yes you can bench 185 so can i, because i go to the gym regularly and lift, steph curry is skinny and probably as a teen did more cardio, core, and legs then bench press

i said they are better at sports, all these guys have great speed, vertical, insane coordination, hand eye, sports iq etc...

i don't see how you saying when you were 16 you could bench more than 18 year old steph curry proves this wrong, these guys are insane natural athletes, and bench press does not fall under that category

i never called these guys physical beasts, some are - but they all have insane above average athletisim - that is a fact that you cannot argue with

[DMAVS41]

I think you're underrating natural gifts like hand-eye coordination/reflexes/things that aren't immediately obvious like say vertical and 40 times.

There are likely tons of players who work as hard as they possibly can yet will still never amount to being close Steve Kerr let alone Steph Curry.

This.

And what tpols said.

Curry or Price or Kerr or Nash...or some of the names you often hear on stuff like this...are way better than we give them credit for.

They are just better at the game of basketball than even talented college level players with elite athleticism could ever dream of being...even with a great work ethic.

Basketball is much more complicated than athleticism combined with work ethic.

Hell, you really think an elite athlete that dedicates his life to tennis is going to be the best? No...there are more subtle things in sports and "feel for the game" is one of the most important. And often that is just not taught...

[ProfessorMurder]

I was in the gym as much as possible, like 5-8 hours a day for 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. Played with college guys, played in two leagues. Had a quadruple double and a 48 point game.

Then I hurt my knee and knew that was that. Played one more year and had political issues with coaches at the high school, which ruined my love of the game and stopped playing.

I could've probably played D2, if I stuck with it. Hell I outplayed D3 guys at my college after not playing for 5 years.


No way would I have made the NBA though. I'm only 6', white, and was never lightning quick. I had that Larry Bird game.

[kshutts1]

Just real quickly I wanna brag, just to try and hammer home the "natural ability" portion.

When I was 15, I...
Had an 88 mph fastball
Went to a batting cage and didn't even nick the ball in 32 tries.
My mom was right next to me and had 3 hits, several other "nicks" where she grazed the ball.
I had last played baseball when I was 10
My mom had never played baseball

Some professional pitchers can't even toss 88 mph. I know that. I can throw with speed and accuracy. It's ridiculous. Can't hit a baseball for the life of me, though. Clearly my natural talent for baseball is severely limited. But I wonder how fast I could throw a ball if I actually put in work? Instead of playing catch for a total of an hour a week?

Other things of note about when I was 15...
5'10, 190 lbs of all chub. Never lifted, never ran, just a ball of blubber out there.
75+ yards accuracy with a football
50 yard punts
35 FOOT range shooting a basketball
Worst ball-handled on my team
Once made 15 straight FTs with my eyes closed
Bad passer


I clearly have some god-given abilities. Namely shooting and throwing. Anything else, I was noticeably worse at, especially relative to my peers, even though I put in work in basketball. I played so much as a kid. Others could still handle and pass circles around me (changed now, but still), but no one, and I mean no one, could out shoot me.
How can I be so good, hell, so great, at shooting but so poor with handling and passing, when I worked hard on all those aspects of my game, if natural talent is not a huge indicator?

[tpols]

^Klaze might be right in that if you started to do all those things at a real early age like toddler you might be able to develop the natural feel and coordination with which to base your practice on when you're older. Like that malcolm in the middle episode where Hal reads to malcolm pyhsics and math as a baby and he grows up to be a genius.:oldlol:


But.. we have no control over that. I'm sure if my dad was dell curry and had me playing ball extensively since I could walk, my base talent for shooting and handling etc. would be much much higher for when I was actually concious of my ability to improve my game.

But my dad's not dell curry and I didnt have that. Kids watch their parents and subtely copy their mannerisms, personalities, even their movements to an extent. If I couldve shadowed a pro baller as a toddler when my little brain was soaking up everything in sight sure my movements may have been more efficient and my base ability may have grown a ton. Depends on how much they focused on me playing the game too. MJ may not have played any ball with his kids when they were real little. Dell may have forced it more on his.. who knows?

[ProfessorMurder]

^Klaze might be right in that if you started to do all those things at a real early age like toddler you might be able to develop the natural feel and coordination with which to base your practice on when you're older. Like that malcolm in the middle episode where Hal reads to malcolm pyhsics and math as a baby and he grows up to be a genius.:oldlol:


But.. we have no control over that. I'm sure if my dad was dell curry and had me playing ball extensively since I could walk, my base talent for shooting and handling etc. would be much much higher for when I was actually concious of my ability to improve my game.

But my dad's not dell curry and I didnt have that. Kids watch their parents and subtely copy their mannerisms, personalities, even their movements to an extent. If I couldve shadowed a pro baller as a toddler when my little brain was soaking up everything in sight sure my movements may have been more efficient and my base ability may have grown a ton. Depends on how much they focused on me playing the game too. MJ may not have played any ball with his kids when they were real little. Dell may have forced it more on his.. who knows?

Cue Marinovich Project 30 for 30.

(Haven't seen it, but that's that idea)

[DCL]

like i said, there are only 450 spots in the nba.

take away positions for heights that are 6'5" and above, and there are maybe like 100 spots. probably less.

there are hundreds of millions of kids around the world playing ball with pro dreams.

how many actually do get to the pinnacle?

even kids who DID devote their entire lives to basketball, sleeping, eating, and breathing basketball all day and night, putting in all the work but still come up short. there are thousands of them. about 90% of mcdonald's high school all-americans don't even make it.

you could be a top 0.01% gifted player who's maybe the 3rd best player on a NCAA final four team, and nba teams might still not take you seriously because there are still a handful of guys better than you.

[STATUTORY]

Just real quickly I wanna brag, just to try and hammer home the "natural ability" portion.

When I was 15, I...
Had an 88 mph fastball
Went to a batting cage and didn't even nick the ball in 32 tries.
My mom was right next to me and had 3 hits, several other "nicks" where she grazed the ball.
I had last played baseball when I was 10
My mom had never played baseball

Some professional pitchers can't even toss 88 mph. I know that. I can throw with speed and accuracy. It's ridiculous. Can't hit a baseball for the life of me, though. Clearly my natural talent for baseball is severely limited. But I wonder how fast I could throw a ball if I actually put in work? Instead of playing catch for a total of an hour a week?

Other things of note about when I was 15...
5'10, 190 lbs of all chub. Never lifted, never ran, just a ball of blubber out there.
75+ yards accuracy with a football
50 yard punts
35 FOOT range shooting a basketball
Worst ball-handled on my team
Once made 15 straight FTs with my eyes closed
Bad passer


I clearly have some god-given abilities. Namely shooting and throwing. Anything else, I was noticeably worse at, especially relative to my peers, even though I put in work in basketball. I played so much as a kid. Others could still handle and pass circles around me (changed now, but still), but no one, and I mean no one, could out shoot me.
How can I be so good, hell, so great, at shooting but so poor with handling and passing, when I worked hard on all those aspects of my game, if natural talent is not a huge indicator?

if you could throw 88mph at age 15 with no training, why the hell didn't you channel your energy towards baseball? could be chugging beer, eating fried chicken on a 23million/year contract as a pitcher on the yankees right now

[ripthekik]

After reading through the last page of replies for him and if kblaze still believes he could have made the league if he worked his ass off, but he didn't make it because he "gave up" then all i have to say to kblaze is, you are one delusional, arrogant, out-of-touch, insane bastard. You might just be trolling.

People are right. Take away the 6'5" and above then you have maybe 150 players who are the ELITE of the "short" people with the highest possible combination of athleticism, hand-eye coordination, reflex, experience, skills, luck, hardwork, talent, what have you.

Shaq and countless players that shoot below 70% FTs shoot hundreds at practice each day. Explain why they aren't getting better?

kblaze, ponder no further. Let me tell you that even if you dedicated your life at 3 years old to playing basketball, you still have ZERO chance at becoming an NBA player. Open your eyes. Like I said.. there's thousands of college players who go through with this so-called "hard-work", and they actually have the athleticism and height. Yet less than 1% of them make it to the NBA each year. You're not that special.

[IGOTGAME]

After reading through the last page of replies for him and if kblaze still believes he could have made the league if he worked his ass off, but he didn't make it because he "gave up" then all i have to say to kblaze is, you are one delusional, arrogant, out-of-touch, insane bastard. You might just be trolling.


Best post in this thread. Sums up my feelings as well.

[madmax17]

Why nba, ball in China before the competition goes threw the roof. Europe is insanely competitive, unless you are aiming really low like Belgium or other countries that don't really play basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

I never said I was special or that I could be an NBA player. I said I and millions of others who have no physical gifts than people in the NBA never actually put in the effort. If you want to pretend that everyone who didnt apply themselves couldnt possibly have made it no matter if they had put their lives towards it at 3 years old...you are either an idiot or just arguing to get a reaction.

Cant is one of the most overused words there is. Too often cant just means unlikely. Virtually anyone 6'2'' and healthy living their entire lives for the game could potentially make it.

I CANT fly to the moon on my own power.

It was unlikely id ever have become a pro basketball player.

You act like a million jumpers and ten thousand hours of workouts from 3 to 20 couldnt possibly make a good athlete into an NBA player you really must think they are gods come to earth.

They are great players. Not a one of them was born that way.

Every single one without exception is the product of physical ability plus developed skills.

My physical ability and that of a millions of others is beyond that of a number of NBA players. The skill....is not.

You want to pretend shooting comes from fairy dust to DNA and not the work.....fine.

Show me a good shooter who didnt work to become one.

People fall back on abstract concepts whenever they cant explain something. Universe is confusing....ok...lets not bother to try to figure it out...lets say a man in the sky created it all. Gets us out of the difficult questions.

Steph Curry can shoot his ass off.

His brother too.

Why might that be?

Well...if you dont believe it was 400 thousand jumpers and form being taught to you by one of the best shooters ever your entire life...aka...the obvious...

You fall back to the abstract.

Its pretty much magic.

He can shoot...because. If he never learned to shoot...he could shoot anyway. Its just...in theeeeeeeeere.


Ray Allen is just blessed by god with shooting ability.....its pixie dust...but you ask him he tells you the same thing I do:



Everyone wishes they could shoot like Ray. They tell him that all the time. They are envious, they say, of his God-given talent.

"An insult," says Allen. "God could care less whether I can shoot a jump shot."


Because its hard work.

But I say it?


Oooo out of line. Its not the work...its the holy ghost....


This is all very simple.

If it were natural....

They wouldnt have to learn to shoot in the first place

Its no different than everything else. A lot of people working and not making it isnt proof that work isnt the key. Its proof that some people are more capable than others from a physical standpoint, that some had better training, some had good breaks in life, and some flat out refused to be told no.

Every single one of you knows....if Steph Curry never picked up a basketball....and you dont know who he is.....he posts a pic and says "I could have made the league"....

You would be clowning him.

You dont have to tell me im right. We both know it.

The reason you accept that he can....is because he already has. You dont know him you say he has zero chance. You would be wrong. But you would be just as certian as you are that I couldnt or any of a million others far more special than I was.

Tell me im wrong.

Please.

Someone come in here and tell that outright lie.....that if you never knew him and Curry tells you that he could have made it...you believe him.

You wouldnt have one more speck of evidence he couldnt than you do with me. But you would write him off and tell him how big and strong and fast the NBA is.

People only accept the difficult isnt impossible when they see it. Before then....it cant be done.

And that lack of confidence is why so many never apply themselves in the first place.

This has nothing to do with me.

Its about Shammond Williams brother Fluff. Its about the kid working at Burgerking with a 39 inch vertical who has not taken a practice jumper since 16. Its about the Dinkas...Manute bol and Loul Dengs people.

The millions of unusually tall africans who will never play on a paved court.

The idea that the 400 who made it are the only ones who could have no matter how hard they worked, what breaks they were given, and who they had backing them is just ****ing laughable.

[tpols]

Cue Marinovich Project 30 for 30.

(Haven't seen it, but that's that idea)
True I saw that a while ago and totally forgot about it.. look at that kid though. He was the perfect quarterback.. but his dad pressed him to hard and he ended up turning to drugs.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea that kid was pretty much just assembled.


Marv later opened his own athletic research center and applied the techniques to his young son, introducing athletic training before Marinovich could leave the crib and continuing it throughout his childhood and adolescence.[2] Marv saw an opportunity to use techniques, focusing on speed and flexibility, that later formed the basis for modern core training. During her pregnancy, Trudi used no salt, sugar, alcohol, or tobacco; as a baby, Marinovich was fed only fresh vegetables, fruits, and raw milk.[1] Marv Marinovich commented "Some guys think the most important thing in life is their jobs, the stock market, whatever. To me, it was my kids. The question I asked myself was, How well could a kid develop if you provided him with the perfect environment?"

He has never eaten a Big Mac or an Oreo or a Ding Dong. When he went to birthday parties as a kid, he would take his own cake and ice cream to avoid sugar and refined white flour. He would eat homemade catsup, prepared with honey. He did consume beef but not the kind injected with hormones. He ate only unprocessed dairy products. He teethed on frozen kidney.

When Todd was one month old, Marv was already working on his son's physical conditioning. He stretched his hamstrings. Pushups were next. Marv invented a game in which Todd would try to lift a medicine ball onto a kitchen counter. Marv also put him on a balance beam. Both activities grew easier when Todd learned to walk. There was a football in Todd's crib from day one. "Not a real NFL ball," says Marv. "That would be sick; it was a stuffed ball.


Built to make the NFL from before birth.

But such things cant work in basketball. You have to be rolled in angel extract to make it.

[Kblaze8855]

On a more serious note....read Pistol: Life of Pete Maravich if you want to know the NBA version of that story.

His dad pretty much destroyed him because he agreed at like 7 to do whatever was asked of him to make it. Its really pretty similar. Right down to the crazy diet. He was pretty much a vegan and popped vitamins like an addict. Basketball pretty much ruined him and his father and down the line...his own kids. Good book though.

[STATUTORY]

The idea that the 400 who made it are the only ones who could have no matter how hard they worked, what breaks they were given, and who they had backing them is just ****ing laughable.
yea no one said that, but that also doesn't imply anyone can make the NBA if they just worked hard

and your stephen curry example was pure nonsense, i'll respond when i have time

[Kblaze8855]

No. Its unlikely for everyone. But those who tell themselves its impossible? For them it is. because they never try. And I wonder why so many people do it with so much evidence of what a properly trained and hard working person can achieve.

One thing I think we all agree on. Herschel Walker isnt the only fat kid who could have turned himself into a god among men.

Hes just one of the few to dedicate his life to doing it.

Such people just have to factor in when we start talking about what is and isnt possible.

[TheMarkMadsen]

For people to sit around and think Steve Kerr only made the NBA because he could shoot is pretty comical

[Kblaze8855]

That depends on how literal you want to get.

Not like there is any reason for him to step on a court in the NBA if not to shoot. His game minus that skill leaves him a math teacher. Not playing in europe. Not anything. Kerr minus the jumper is not being paid to play basketball anywhere.

That doesnt mean its as simple as he only made it for his jumper. But im not sure how to word it.

There are others who can shoot as well as him.....and didnt make it. He worked harder than many shooters to make up for the other holes in his game by sheer effort. That doesnt mean there is any other aspect of his game that teams were looking for when they signed him.

Just about how you word it.

[STATUTORY]

I understand that being short definitely lowers your confidence, but sometimes you just have to believe in yourself that you can do it, and push yourself real hard everyday to get your body fit for tha league. I know I messed up but I truly believe I would of made it if I tried my absolute best. If damn earl boykins and mugsy can make it then anybody can. This goes for anything too, no fear plus faith equals great chance.

:applause: I find your typical trolling a bit cliche but this was excellent

[TheMarkMadsen]

That depends on how literal you want to get.

Not like there is any reason for him to step on a court in the NBA if not to shoot. His game minus that skill leaves him a math teacher. Not playing in europe. Not anything. Kerr minus the jumper is not being paid to play basketball anywhere.

That doesnt mean its as simple as he only made it for his jumper. But im not sure how to word it.

There are others who can shoot as well as him.....and didnt make it. He worked harder than many shooters to make up for the other holes in his game by sheer effort. That doesnt mean there is any other aspect of his game that teams were looking for when they signed him.

Just about how you word it.

So then why did gerry mcnamara never step foot on an NBA court?

[IGOTGAME]

So then why did gerry mcnamara never step foot on an NBA court?
Obviously just didn't work enough. :rolleyes:

[Kblaze8855]

He shot 35% from the field as a senior for one.

And as I said...it comes down to wording.

Kerr was in the league for 15 years to do one thing.

Shoot long jumpers.

Its why he was in the NBA.

beyond that we get into semantics I just dont think are worth the argument.

[get these NETS]

to OP

I can name about 15 second generation NBA players


how does the fact that there are more than a few sons of nba players to also make the league factor into your theories/views?

Kobe is the clear exception to the rule , but generally kids of rich athletes aren't gonna be driven to succeed in athletics as much as their fathers.

[Fresh Kid]

:applause: I find your typical trolling a bit cliche but this was excellent
thanks bro. That was real talk from tha heart.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

That's because it was his role, and he played for coaches whom invested heavily in their systems. It doesn't mean he couldn't do other things.

There's a bunch of centers who can handle and shoot the ball some, but they don't because no team which wants to win needs a bruising 7 footer, playing out on the perimeter, averaging 7 turnovers a game and shooting 20% from 3. Which would still be better numbers than your average high school basketball player trying to do same thing.

And of course if you removed Kerr's one elite trait, he wouldn't have played in the NBA. I don't care how skilled LeBron is, if he moved around like current Arvydas Sabonis (seeing as his freakish combination of athleticism and size is what separates him) then he wouldn't be playing basketball professionally either.

This is especially noticeable when you see these NBA players play pickup ball in the summer with their former college teams or the proams.

[Fresh Kid]

No. Its unlikely for everyone. But those who tell themselves its impossible? For them it is. because they never try. And I wonder why so many people do it with so much evidence of what a properly trained and hard working person can achieve.

Excellent post. You gotta teach these doubterz out here:applause:

[ripthekik]

Yeap, kblaze you delutional. There's a reason so much people say they can't, or they won't make it. That's because we all have a clear head and can see why.

There's so many examples in this thread and so many things going against what you are arguing.. yet you keep going on... yeah I already told you. You can't. No chance.

[AlphaWolf24]

to OP

I can name about 15 second generation NBA players


how does the fact that there are more than a few sons of nba players to also make the league factor into your theories/views?

Kobe is the clear exception to the rule , but generally kids of rich athletes aren't gonna be driven to succeed in athletics as much as their fathers.


- Genetics obviously IMO...but also the Pro Fathers understand what it takes to become a great player.....and they probably won't stress his kids out if they lost a 3rd grade game....so his kids end up hating basketball.....the Pro Player/Dad has confidence in his children knowing what it takes to be a great player.


- They have that knowlege to pass down to their off spring, I don't know what the statistics are...But I would guess most of the players who had Fathers play pro did better with a active Father in their life vs a Father who was not there.

- I'm also sure their are many Kids who had pro fathers that suck at basketball when they grow up.

- to become a great basketball player , there are tons of factors that weigh in ( Like many of you have already stated), Physical tools, Mental tools, enviroment...etc...etc.

- But IMO....great players Love to play basketball.....as they grow up and mature some will have the physical tools and mental tools to keep getting better and keep ADJUSTING to the game.....

- NBA Players "IMO" have the mental and physical to adjust to the game as they grew up ( grade school , Highschool - college - Pro)
I went to Highschool with 2 NBA players in the early 90's....we would play hoop all day after school....in practice we played harder then anyone.....In My Mind I loved Hoop more then them...But as we got older.....

they also had the physical tools to DOMINATE.....I did not.

( not saying that is the only reason)

EDIT: also....when I say most great players love Basketball( not alll but most)...

I mean, I can teach kids how to crossover and go for a layup.....some kids pick it up fast...some kids simply cannot.....it's like BBALL is a secret code for some people...only certain ones can break the code....and they end up falling in Love with the sport because it clicks!


so it is :confusedshrug:

[Clifton]

I dunno, man.

I'm 6'2 and a bit under 200. I was a very good player in high school... at the sub-Varsity level. At the Varsity level to say I was Steve Kerr-lite(on the jumper) would be generous, because Steve Kerr got playing time and was fast enough to get open.

And I am positive I worked harder and played harder in high school than Lamar Odom and Andray Blatche and others did in their NBA primes. Heck, probably Ron Artest and Tracy McGrady too.

Some guys just have NBA talent. They're born NBA players and they'll make it as long as they don't screw it up.

It doesn't take that much work to get a decent enough set of acquired skills to be a serviceable NBA player. I shot 500 jumpers a day for months at a time in high school. But in college I played maybe 6 times a year, and after college, I went one whole year without touching a ball and set foot on a court and was making stuff at a decent rate.

Meanwhile, there was nothing I could do to make up for my lack of talent. It's not just being big enough, running fast, and jumping high. It's stuff like coordination and instinct. The game moved faster than I did at the varsity level. Other guys could handle it with ease, who were way less skilled and fit than I was.

But put me in a pretty competitive pick-up game, with guys who were varsity bench players or worse, and I was very good, especially defensively.

There are successful NBA players right now whom I would not call NBA talents. The best example I can think of is Tyler Hansbrough. If you have Hansbrough guard Carmelo Anthony 25 times, Melo will score 25 times. I saw it in the playoffs. He balls his ass off and was a great college player, but he simply doesn't have NBA talent. Has a spot in the league because of effort, but he's playing above his level. And Hansbrough's level... is very high. Had the talent to dominate college ball.

But the NBA simply has a peculiar set of things you need to be born with to do well. Getting a great jumper and having the right size body isn't even enough.

[FKAri]

I agree with alot of kblaze is saying but I disagree vehemently with this single core statement from which other disagreements are branching:


You dont just...have within you basketball ability. It has to be created. You can have....athletic ability. But thats about it.

There are things you're born with; then there are things you can develop at a very young age; then there are things you can develop at any age. But to say athletic ability is the only thing that falls into the "born with" category is simply untrue.

So anyone could be constructed (from a young age) to be the next Einstein? the next Michelangelo? the next Messi (since he relies far more on skill than athleticism)? Let's assume they get all the breaks too, that is simply not true.

[tpols]

I agree with alot of kblaze is saying but I disagree vehemently with this single core statement from which other disagreements are branching:



There are things you're born with; then there are things you can develop at a very young age; then there are things you can develop at any age. But to say athletic ability is the only thing that falls into the "born with" category is simply untrue.

So anyone could be constructed (from a young age) to be the next Einstein? the next Michelangelo? the next Messi (since he relies far more on skill than athleticism)? Let's assume they get all the breaks too, that is simply not true.
I dont think its about being einstein.. no ones saying you can be molded into Michael Jordan.. just make the NBA. You can be tyrone lue.. or eric snow.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeap, kblaze you delutional. There's a reason so much people say they can't, or they won't make it. That's because we all have a clear head and can see why.

There's so many examples in this thread and so many things going against what you are arguing.. yet you keep going on... yeah I already told you. You can't. No chance.

You can say it again. It wont make it a decent argument. There are too many examples of people who were not on track to be anything being scooped up by a mentor or deciding to will themselves into greatness and pull it off to just assume that the only people who could make it are those who did it. There are billions of men who have never played basketball.

Of course hundreds of thousands have the magic fairy dust you people seem to think makes all the difference. But the extreme vast majority simply do not apply themselves, dont get the backing from people who know how to teach them, dont have the resources, or live where they simply will never be spotted.

You have no idea who these people are. You couldnt pick a Herschel Walker out of a crowd of chubby kids. You couldnt find Charles Barkley in a group of overweight 5'10'' HS sophmores who cant get rim. You dont know Steve Kerr is Steve Kerr at 14. Steve Francis couldnt dunk at 17. You hear about the work he put in to change that? Dude quit basketball for 2 years after his mother died. Quit at I think 14 or 15 then got back to it. Steve Francis stays with some of his knucklehead friends he stays a poor motherless kid who cant dunk and if hes on ISH saying "I could have made it" every one of you says no you couldnt.

All of you "It cant be done" posters pale in comparison to remembering it starting to rain down at the neighborhood park and everyone leaving....but Shammond Williams staying. Both of his brothers were at a time better than he was(at the same age I mean...fluff was much younger). One just didnt take it serious and one kinda did....but was more into girls. Which I cant judge him for. I was too.

But I dont think its by chance the one who made it is the guy shooting jumpers in the rain.

But you know what?

If he had stopped....if he walked off with the rest when it was no longer nice out. If he was riding around listening to Illmatic instead of working....if he stays the merely ok player he was in middle school and 9th grade and didnt push it till our school were the state champions and he left for college....

He could well be here right now. And every single one of you saying I couldnt have done it would be saying the same if he made this topic.

I just want one person to acknowledge that.

Id like one person to be real enough to admit it.

I can admit and always have....that the odds dont favor me making it. But I always wonder why I never took it serious when I was so far ahead of my peers for so long.

There is an ocean of athletes who never tried and anyone being honest knows they cant pick the individual drops that had a chance and those that didnt.

But humans are so negative towards eachother they doubt off the bat. And it isnt even sports.

Its everything. Its why every rags to riches story has a "They said I couldnt...." story and why every self made billionaire has hundreds in their wake who would be rich too if they had believed in them and got in on the ground floor. Humans are crabs in a bucket. Selfish and dont want anyone else to make it if they cant.

But that doesnt make them right.

And anyone saying they know what I possibly could have done when they never met me, never saw me play, or know anyone who has is just flat out lying or letting the human nature to doubt overwhelm their logic.

Its a decision based on NOTHING. You have not one speck of evidence regarding what I was capable of or any of a million others. You just say there is zero chance because putting down your fellow man is human nature.

There is zero chance the guy who played Mini Me makes the NBA.

There is simply a small chance a guy like me could.

And guess what....

There was only a small chance a guy like you could either. But you say its zero...not because you are being honest with yourself....but because the doubt is so great it defeats your logic.

If your dad was Pistol Petes dad or Todd Marinovichs....if you eat right, get pumped with vitamins and supplements, have your dad forcing forms of strength building on you literally in the cirib(next to your ball), you have to dribble to school and home, and shoot jumpers in bed straight up from your back to perfect your form.....if you spend hours throwing behind the back passes off a barn door, not playing with other kids but learning to make floaters over your dad when you are 8 all summer, and running off stacks of buckets to perfect coming off screens and shooting on the catch....

If you are built from the ground up to do nothing but play ball...

You are not you.

You might be:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uh6idiiTp5A/Tu-Odwab1cI/AAAAAAAAAf8/Xs95nZSroeA/s1600/com_111206_film_MARINOVICH_roboqb.jpg


Or maybe

http://www.warriorsworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Maravich-LSU.jpg


Too short?

Maybe

http://www.blujay.com/1/432/3198836_s1_i1.jpg

Who was pretty much the same thing far as how he built his game.

I dont know what you are capable of. But I dont doubt you because I dont know you. But you doubt me.

With no evidence of my ability at all.

And act like im delusional?

Delusional is assuming you know an athletic kids potential if he maxed it out when you never even saw him dribble a ball.

[9erempiree]

You can say it again. It wont make it a decent argument. There are too many examples of people who were not on track to be anything being scooped up by a mentor or deciding to will themselves into greatness and pull it off to just assume that the only people who could make it are those who did it. There are billions of men who have never played basketball.

Of course hundreds of thousands have the magic fairy dust you people seem to think makes all the difference. But the extreme vast majority simply do not apply themselves, dont get the backing from people who know how to teach them, dont have the resources, or live where they simply will never be spotted.

You have no idea who these people are. You couldnt pick a Herschel Walker out of a crowd of chubby kids. You couldnt find Charles Barkley in a group of overweight 5'10'' HS sophmores who cant get rim. You dont know Steve Kerr is Steve Kerr at 14. Steve Francis couldnt dunk at 17. You hear about the work he put in to change that? Dude quit basketball for 2 years after his mother died. Quit at I think 14 or 15 then got back to it. Steve Francis stays with some of his knucklehead friends he stays a poor motherless kid who cant dunk and if hes on ISH saying "I could have made it" every one of you says no you couldnt.

All of you "It cant be done" posters pale in comparison to remembering it starting to rain down at the neighborhood park and everyone leaving....but Shammond Williams staying. Both of his brothers were at a time better than he was(at the same age I mean...fluff was much younger). One just didnt take it serious and one kinda did....but was more into girls. Which I cant judge him for. I was too.

But I dont think its by chance the one who made it is the guy shooting jumpers in the rain.

But you know what?

If he had stopped....if he walked off with the rest when it was no longer nice out. If he was riding around listening to Illmatic instead of working....if he stays the merely ok player he was in middle school and 9th grade and didnt push it till our school were the state champions and he left for college....

He could well be here right now. And every single one of you saying I couldnt have done it would be saying the same if he made this topic.

I just want one person to acknowledge that.

Id like one person to be real enough to admit it.

I can admit and always have....that the odds dont favor me making it. But I always wonder why I never took it serious when I was so far ahead of my peers for so long.

There is an ocean of athletes who never tried and anyone being honest knows they cant pick the individual drops that had a chance and those that didnt.

But humans are so negative towards eachother they doubt off the bat. And it isnt even sports.

Its everything. Its why every rags to riches story has a "They said I couldnt...." story and why every self made billionaire has hundreds in their wake who would be rich too if they had believed in them and got in on the ground floor. Humans are crabs in a bucket. Selfish and dont want anyone else to make it if they cant.

But that doesnt make them right.

And anyone saying they know what I possibly could have done when they never met me, never saw me play, or know anyone who has is just flat out lying or letting the human nature to doubt overwhelm their logic.

Its a decision based on NOTHING. You have not one speck of evidence regarding what I was capable of or any of a million others. You just say there is zero chance because putting down your fellow man is human nature.

There is zero chance the guy who played Mini Me makes the NBA.

There is simply a small chance a guy like me could.

And guess what....

There was only a small chance a guy like you could either. But you say its zero...not because you are being honest with yourself....but because the doubt is so great it defeats your logic.

If your dad was Pistol Petes dad or Todd Marinovichs....if you eat right, get pumped with vitamins and supplements, have your dad forcing forms of strength building on you literally in the cirib(next to your ball), you have to dribble to school and home, and shoot jumpers in bed straight up from your back to perfect your form.....if you spend hours throwing behind the back passes off a barn door, not playing with other kids but learning to make floaters over your dad when you are 8 all summer, and running off stacks of buckets to perfect coming off screens and shooting on the catch....

If you are built from the ground up to do nothing but play ball...

You are not you.

You might be:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uh6idiiTp5A/Tu-Odwab1cI/AAAAAAAAAf8/Xs95nZSroeA/s1600/com_111206_film_MARINOVICH_roboqb.jpg


Or maybe

http://www.warriorsworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Maravich-LSU.jpg


Too short?

Maybe

http://www.blujay.com/1/432/3198836_s1_i1.jpg

Who was pretty much the same thing far as how he built his game.

I dont know what you are capable of. But I dont doubt you because I dont know you. But you doubt me.

With no evidence of my ability at all.

And act like im delusional?

Delusional is assuming you know an athletic kids potential if he maxed it out when you never even saw him dribble a ball.

Stop bringing up people you know nothing about. LOL @ Marinovich. I was watching that addict before you were even born. He was quite popular over here in these neck of the woods.

[dr.hee]

Stop bringing up people you know nothing about. LOL @ Marinovich. I was watching that addict before you were even born. He was quite popular over here in these neck of the woods.

What a dumbass :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

And the 19 year old who remembers Tiny Archibald makes an appearance. I think its safe to say that ends to reasonable discussion portion of the topic.

[get these NETS]

@kblaze


don't know if you noticed my other post but I asked about the number of second generation nba players and how their presence...affects your theory.

outside of kobe.....not really (m)any instances of son of rich athlete being as driven as their father in sports.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Besides that...I can't argue with your overall point. You saw a kid grow up devoting himself to basketball and making himself into an nba caliber player.

One of my family members went to school with 5'6" division THREE player who went to the pros...


when you witness firsthand people defying every conceivable obstacle to make it to the pros....I can see how it might have you thinking the way you do.


i heard a speech/ad that Magic gave about bringing a shovel to outdoor court in MICHIGAN winters to clear off the court so that he could play.


Magic and Kobe are exceptions, but that kind of single minded devotion to sport is usually found in people from bad economic situations who see sport as their way up and out of their conditions.

whether it's chance at free ride at college or shot at the pros...and I'm talking about worldwide...

the discipline sacrifices and focus it takes to do that are just not gonna be in everybody's dna.....and some are driven by things other than economics

Don't beat yourself up because you didn't have it, or apply it to sports. It's more practical to apply that kind of drive to things other than athletics anyway, in the big picture

and I've always felt that the reason that a good number of elite athletes get into very public bad situations is that they are many years behind others in development in many ways. While others were living balanced lives..school,girls,books,etc...and LEARNING from life situations.....athletes were playing ball or studying the sport..their development in many OTHER areas of life was stunted.