Top 10 Greatest Players Since Jordan

[AussieBaller99]

With all this talk now of Lebron moving up in the GOAT ranks, what would the top 10 be since Michael Jordan left the Bulls? There has been a lot of top 10 of all time lists recently but only a few players of the post Jordan era make it.

My list would go something like this -

1. Tim Duncan

5 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs, 10 All-NBA First teams, 3 All-NBA Second teams, 2 All-NBA Third teams, 8 Defensive First teams, 7 Defensive Second teams,
Best Statical Season-
2003- 26ppg, 13rpg, 4ast, 3blks on 51/79 shooting,

2. Lebron James

3 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 4 MVPs, 10 All-NBA First teams, 2 All-NBA Second teams, 5 Defensive First teams, 1 Defensive Second Team, 1 Scoring title
Best Staical Season-
2010- 30ppg, 9ast, 7rpg, 2 stl, 1blk on 50/33/77 shooting

3. Shaquille O'Neal

4 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP, 8 All-NBA First teams, 2 All-NBA Second teams, 4 All-NBA Third teams, 3 Defensive Second teams, 2 Scoring titles
Best Statical Season-
2000- 30ppg, 14rpg, 4ast, 3blk on 57/53 shooting

4. Kobe Bryant

5 Rings, 2FMVPs, 1 MVP, 11 All-NBA First teams, 2 All-NBA Second teams, 2 All-NBA Third teams, 9 Defensive First teams, 4 Defensive Second teams, 2 Scoring titles
Best Statical Season-
2006- 35ppg, 5ast, 5rpg, 2stl on 45/35/85 shooting

5. Kevin Durant

1 MVP, 5 All-NBA First teams, 1 All-NBA Second team, 4 Scoring titles
Best Statical Season-
2014- 32ppg, 7rpg, 6ast, 1stl, 1blk on 50/39/87 shooting

6. Dirk Nowitzki

1 Ring, 1 FMVP, 1 MVP, 4 NBA First Teams, 5 NBA Second teams, 3 NBA Third teams
Best Statical Season-
2006- 27ppg, 9rpg, 3ast, 1blk on 48/41/90 shooting

7. Kevin Garnett

1 Ring, 1 MVP, 4 NBA First teams, 3 NBA Second teams, 2 NBA Third teams, 9 defensive First teams, 3 defensive Second teams, 1 DPOY
Best Statical Season-
2004- 24ppg, 14rpg, 5ast, 2stls, 2blks on 50/79 shhoting

8. Dwyane Wade

3 Rings, 1 FMVP, 2 NBA First teams, 3 NBA Second teams, 3 NBA Third teams, 3 Defensive Second teams, 1 Scoring tItle
Best Statical Season-
2009- 30ppg, 8ast, 5rpg, 2stl, 1blk on 49/32/77 shooting

9. Jason Kidd

1 Ring, 5 NBA First teams, 1 NBA Second team, 4 Defensive First teams, 5 Defensive Second teams, 5 time assists leader
Best Statical Season-
1999- 17ppg, 11ast, 7rpg, 2stl on 44/37/76 shooting

10. Stephen Curry

1 Ring, 2 MVPs, 2 NBA First teams, 1 NBA Second team, 1 Scoring title
Best Statical Season-
2016- 30ppg, 7ast, 5rpg, 2stl on 50/45/91 shooting


What do you guys think? I included players that had the prime/peak of there career after 1998.

[SouBeachTalents]

No way should Durant be over KG/Dirk/Wade

[Quickening]

LeBron
Shaq
Duncan

The rest aren't close, maybe durant ends up top ten if he wins a couple of fmvps

[Im Still Ballin]

Nice list but you have to put LeBron above Duncan

He's by far the better player and outmatches him in meaningful individual accolades

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron
Shaq
Duncan
Gasol

[AussieBaller99]

No way should Durant be over KG/Dirk/Wade

Its close for me but KDs 6 top 5 MVP finishes, being 3rd all time in points per game which he won't drop past 5/6 and that he has been widley known as a top 3 player in the league for quite awhile now!

[AussieBaller99]

Nice list but you have to put LeBron above Duncan

He's by far the better player and outmatches him in meaningful individual accolades

Was very close but I couldn't put him in front of Duncan quite yet. Some more All-NBA level seasons then it'd be incredibly close but with 1 more ring and FMVP that would cement it imo.

[Prime_Shaq]

1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Curry
9. Durant
10. Kidd

[aj1987]

Its close for me but KDs 6 top 5 MVP finishes, being 3rd all time in points per game which he won't drop past 5/6 and that he has been widley known as a top 3 player in the league for quite awhile now!
0 Rings. Multiple chokes in the PO's. Dude lost a 3-1 lead this season as well.

KG/Dirk/Wade are all interchangeable and yeah, KD is below all of them.

[IllegalD]

1) Kobe
2) Duncan
3) Shaq
4) LeBron

[Dray n Klay]

1) I'm
2) Scared
3) Of
4) Black People



:yaohappy: :hammertime: :hammertime: :djparty :dancin

[aj1987]

1) Shaq
2) LeBron
3) Duncan
4) Wade




























































































562. Ronny Turiaf



















































???. Anthony Bennett












































???. Chokebe Cryant

FTFY.

[IllegalD]

:yaohappy: :hammertime: :hammertime: :djparty :dancin

http://i65.tinypic.com/2jakcgw.jpg

[Dray n Klay]

:cry:


Are you melting down, Simon baby boy? :yaohappy: :hammertime: :hammertime: :dancin

[Round Mound]

No way should Durant be over KG/Dirk/Wade

This

[feyki]

Beside of Durant and Curry , nice list.

Also , Put Pierce on 9th and give tie Nash and Kidd for last spot .

[fourkicks44]

Beside of Durant and Curry , nice list.

Also , Put Pierce on 9th and give tie Nash and Kidd for last spot .

In all honesty, Curry still has a long career ahead of him, but besides one ring is he really that much more accomplished than Allen Iverson thus far?

[feyki]

In all honesty, Curry still has a long career ahead of him, but besides one ring is he really that much more accomplished than Allen Iverson thus far?

Ivy was SG .

[fourkicks44]

Ivy was SG .

I was referring to the general question and the op's list predominantly. Apologies for the ambiguity.

[aj1987]

In all honesty, Curry still has a long career ahead of him, but besides one ring is he really that much more accomplished than Allen Iverson thus far?
2 MVP's. UMVP. GOAT 3pt shooter. I'm pretty sure that Curry broke more records this last season than AI did in his entire career.

[Height Freak]

Curry doesn't belong to this list.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron/Shaq behind Duncan and Dirk behind KD is just wrong.

[Odinn]

1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Nowitzki
6. Garnett
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Kidd
10. ? (Nash possibly)

Curry still has a way to go on this one. 2 elite seasons. He's already 28. He can end up in top 10.

[Cold soul]

1) Kobe
2) Duncan
3) Lebron
4) Shaq

[feyki]

I was referring to the general question and the op's list predominantly. Apologies for the ambiguity.

I guess , i was confused on seperate CP3 thread and this one :hammerhead: .

Yea , i think Curry's career too early to compare legends , just wait and see him .

Also , i forgot Ivy too . He and Pierce have similar career in my mind . So , Ivy is the 8th or 9th best since Jordan .

[Papaya Petee]

1.) LeBron
2.) Shaq
3.) Duncan
4.) Kobe
5.) Wade
6.) Nowitzki
7.) Garnett (what has he done before the big 3? Wade and Dirk won rings as the man prior, not just with a big 3 past their primes)
8.) Durant
9.) Curry
10.) Iverson

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll go with top 5...top 10 seems like a crapshoot

Shaq/LeBron
LeBron/Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Wade/Garnett/Dirk (pick any one of them)

I feel that Shaq had the slight better prime AND peak compared to LeBron, although LeBron's career may be GREATER because he balled in the regular-season and has the MVPs to show for it.

[ArbitraryWater]

Correct answer is:

1) LeBron
2) Shaq
3) Duncan
4) Dirk
5) Kobe
6) Garnett
7) Durant
8) Wade

At this point, you can still take Wade over KD, but KD keeps piling in similarly elite seasons and its not a contest anymore. Dirk/Kobe is real close too. After those top 5, its a small gap.

[aj1987]

Correct answer is:

1) LeBron
2) Shaq
3) Duncan
4) Dirk
5) Kobe
6) Garnett
7) Durant
8) Wade

At this point, you can still take Wade over KD, but KD keeps piling in similarly elite seasons and its not a contest anymore. Dirk/Kobe is real close too. After those top 5, its a small gap.
And you keep proving that you literally have 0 basketball knowledge.

1. Shaq
2. LeBron
3/4. Duncan/Kobe
3/4. Duncan/Kobe
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. KG
8. KD
9. Curry
10. Kidd/AI

[ArbitraryWater]

:lol

Wade stans always glossing over his pitful longevity.. '05-'12, thats it lol

but you think its a pick ems with '02-'14 Dirk? El-mao

[Dray n Klay]

:lol

Wade stans always glossing over his pitful longevity.. '05-'12, thats it lol

but you think its a pick ems with '02-'14 Dirk? El-mao

And Wade was injured in 2 of those years :oldlol:


So its really

2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011 thats it

[aj1987]

:lol

Wade stans always glossing over his pitful longevity.. '05-'12, thats it lol

but you think its a pick ems with '02-'14 Dirk? El-mao
You do know that your boyfriend has that 27 game streak in his resume because of Wade, right? 3 Rings. Without your boyfriend choking, Dirk would be ringless and would probably be ranked somewhere in the 40's.

[NBAGOAT]

1) Lebron
2) Shaq(1 and 2 are tossups)
3) Duncan
4) Kobe
5) Garnett
6) Dirk(5 and 6 are tossups)
7) Wade
8) Durant
9) Pierce/CP3
10) CP3/Pierce(a lot of guys in contention for 9,10)

[tpols]

1) Lebron
2) Shaq(1 and 2 are tossups)
3) Duncan
4) Kobe
5) Garnett
6) Dirk(5 and 6 are tossups)
7) Wade
8) Durant
9) Pierce/CP3
10) CP3/Pierce(a lot of guys in contention for 9,10)

I would put someone like kidd or nash over pierce , rest looks solid.

[NBAGOAT]

I would put someone like kidd or nash over pierce , rest looks alright.

yea I'm kind of a Pierce fan but get why he's not on most people's lists. I have him top 10 for sf not too far behind Durant for now. Would lean more Nash than Kidd since I like offense more from my pg's and Nash peaked higher. Ofc can't forget about someone like AI either.

[ArbitraryWater]

1) Lebron
2) Shaq(1 and 2 are tossups)
3) Duncan
4) Kobe
5) Garnett
6) Dirk(5 and 6 are tossups)
7) Wade
8) Durant
9) Pierce/CP3
10) CP3/Pierce(a lot of guys in contention for 9,10)

I like it.. Wade will probably have to make room soon, right?

[Height Freak]

Ray Ray over AI is a no brainer to me.

[NBAGOAT]

I like it.. Wade will probably have to make room soon, right?

likely, Durant has like 6 great years on his resume already and he's one of the favorites for MVP the next few years. Think it's most likely too late for CP3 however.

[Wade's Rings]

:lol

Wade stans always glossing over his pitful longevity.. '05-'12, thats it lol

but you think its a pick ems with '02-'14 Dirk? El-mao

If you're including '13 and '14 Dirk then '13 Wade and '14 Wade have to be thrown in. Might as well throw in '15 Wade too.

[Wade's Rings]

likely, Durant has like 6 great years on his resume already and he's one of the favorites for MVP the next few years. Think it's most likely too late for CP3 however.

You're definitely over valuing longevity here. Wade's the much better playoff performer, and has a great Title run and Finals MVP to his name. You could also take his peak over Durant's.

[NBAGOAT]

You're definitely over valuing longevity here. Wade's the much better playoff performer, and has a great Title run and Finals MVP to his name. You could also take his peak over Durant's.

well Durant's peak is comparable to Wade's so longevity isn't the only case. Also, it's not just normal longevity, Durant still has his prime in front of him. I would not be surprised to see him win multiple MVP's. Wade's a better playoff performer and that could never change but he's also a better playoff performer than other guys above him. I don't think it would enough for example if Durant ended up with 3 MVP's and had a 9 year prime from 10-19(he be only 31 in 2019).

[Wade's Rings]

well Durant's peak is comparable to Wade's so longevity isn't the only case. Also, it's not just normal longevity, Durant still has his prime in front of him. I would not be surprised to see him win multiple MVP's. Wade's a better playoff performer and that could never change but he's also a better playoff performer than other guys above him. I don't think it would enough for example if Durant ended up with 3 MVP's and had a 9 year prime from 10-19(he be only 31 in 2019).

That's true I do agree he could rack up 4-5 years of great play but it is a hypothetical.

[NBAGOAT]

That's true I do agree he could rack up 4-5 years of great play but it is a hypothetical.

yep which is why I have Durant below Wade for now. AW asked me if Wade's going get passed in the future however.

[Wade's Rings]

yep which is why I have Durant below Wade for now. AW asked me if Wade's going get passed in the future however.

I noticed but knowing his bias and stupidity it doesn't surprise me what he's saying in this thread.

[Micku]

well Durant's peak is comparable to Wade's so longevity isn't the only case. Also, it's not just normal longevity, Durant still has his prime in front of him. I would not be surprised to see him win multiple MVP's. Wade's a better playoff performer and that could never change but he's also a better playoff performer than other guys above him. I don't think it would enough for example if Durant ended up with 3 MVP's and had a 9 year prime from 10-19(he be only 31 in 2019).

Out of curiosity then, why would you have Wade lower than some of those other guys if his peak was not only great, but he also was better playoff performer than a couple guys above him? And he has more rings to boot.

MVPs? Other accolades? Eye test? Injuries?

[DMAVS41]

Durant can't go above Dirk and Wade yet...choking that game 6 like that. He hasn't done enough yet....sorry...just no.

I'm a huge Duncan guy, but I think I'd have to put Lebron over him now.

1. Lebron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. CP3

I feel like I'm forgetting someone though.

[NBAGOAT]

Out of curiosity then, why would you have Wade lower than some of those other guys if his peak was not only great, but he also was better playoff performer than a couple guys above him? And he has more rings to boot.

MVPs? Other accolades? Eye test? Injuries?

longevity. They could have better primes just because their primes were longer. Karl Malone is a perfect example of this. No one would call him a better playoff performer than Wade and I say his peak is below Wade's too.

[Micku]

Durant can't go above Dirk and Wade yet...choking that game 6 like that. He hasn't done enough yet....sorry...just no.

I'm a huge Duncan guy, but I think I'd have to put Lebron over him now.

1. Lebron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. Dirk
6. KG
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. CP3

I feel like I'm forgetting someone though.

Why is Durant higher than Curry when Curry has a better career so far? He is more accomplish. He has a ring and is two time MVP. Even though he didn't accomplish a championship this year, he was a big part of having the best season record in NBA history.

Is it because individual play? Like despite the fact that Curry won a title and two MVP, Durant is the better individual player or is it because Durant played at a high level for much longer?

[DMAVS41]

Why is Durant higher than Curry when Curry has a better career so far? He is more accomplish. He has a ring and is two time MVP. Even though he didn't accomplish a championship this year, he was a big part of having the best season record in NBA history.

Is it because individual play? Like despite the fact that Curry won a title and two MVP, Durant is the better individual player or is it because Durant played at a high level for much longer?

Durant has been an elite player for longer. I need to see Curry play great a bit longer.

Also, losing those finals and getting murked by Kyrie isn't a good look. Especially with how shaky he looked in the finals against guys that shouldn't be playing in the finals after an incredibly easy path last year.

Every time the Warriors have played a really good team these last two years...they've either been on the brink of defeat...or have lost.

Fair or not...questioning if Curry can play at his regular season level in the more physical playoffs and finals is legitimate.

This isn't to say Durant is better...it's just that he's been doing it longer and at his best played at a level similar to Curry has...even in the regular season when Curry was unreal good. 14 Durant regular season was also historically good.

From 09 to 16...Durant is something like a 28/7/3 player on high efficiency.

So because I don't think Curry has a huge advantage at his peak over Durant and because Durant has done it longer...I give the nod to Durant.

It's very close though.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why is Durant higher than Curry when Curry has a better career so far? He is more accomplish. He has a ring and is two time MVP. Even though he didn't accomplish a championship this year, he was a big part of having the best season record in NBA history.

Is it because individual play? Like despite the fact that Curry won a title and two MVP, Durant is the better individual player or is it because Durant played at a high level for much longer?

isnt that obvius? Of course KD is higher so far.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yo DMAVS, good list, but Duncan one down, and Wade will probably have to make room at some point for KD... I think NBAGOAT and me agreed on that.

I think KD has another '12-esque playoff run in him, not just one.. its over at that point.

[HALLandOATES]

Since when is kg/dirk better than wade?:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yo DMAVS, good list, but Duncan one down, and Wade will probably have to make room at some point for KD... I think NBAGOAT and me agreed on that.

I think KD has another '12-esque playoff run in him, not just one.. its over at that point.

I'm doing it now...not based much on future.

I wouldn't draft Shaq over Duncan to start a franchise...and Shaq played some good years before MJ retired as well...so part of his career takes place with Jordan...and only 1 year of Duncan does.

Regardless of that distinction though...I think Duncan was the overall more valuable player, but it's obviously close.

[Micku]

longevity. They could have better primes just because their primes were longer. Karl Malone is a perfect example of this. No one would call him a better playoff performer than Wade and I say his peak is below Wade's too.

Oh okay. I understand.

For me personally, I'm not too fond of the a number listing of 10. It find it a bit too simple. What exactly is the difference between 9 and 10? Or 11 and 12, going beyond the top 10? Tiers is my favorite. Although it may seem like a bit of a cop out in saying player a>player b, I find it to be a better. Some of these players play different positions and different styles. Sometimes work better than the other, sometimes they work equally.

In terms prime and longevity prime, I think it depends. Like how much do we value getting a ring in your prime as oppose to out of your prime? Gary Payton has a ring outside of his prime, yet has his legacy changed much at all? Kareem has six rings, but does that last one really count? He was still solid, but it wasn't like he was playing his 1980 self or even in the 70s. His 1987 self contributed more.

Same thing with Karl Malone and Barkley. Barkley had a shorter prime, but probably a better peak and prime overall than Malone. KM has more MVPs. Yet you still find ppl arguing over who is better and who to put over who in their all time list.

And this is a similar case for D-Wade too, except he has rings. But even despite the rings, some would rank that Barkley and Karl Malone.


isnt that obvius? Of course KD is higher so far.

Well, couldn't you argue that Curry accomplish more in a shorter time span than Durant tho? Afterall, Curry has two MVPs, been to two finals, and has one ring. Durant has one MVP, one finals. If their careers ended right, wouldn't Curry's resume be better? He has done more in the 7 years he has been in the league than Durant's 9.

I'm not saying one has to rank one over the other, I'm just curious of how DMAVS41 does the ranking. And I could totally understand the other point of level of performance and doing it for longer, which is what he is saying it seems. Especially since Curry did not play well in the finals. He didn't play up to his regular season standard overall in the playoffs either.

[COnDEMnED]

Thinking logically, if you have Shaq above Lebron, wouldn't you need to have Duncan over him too. Duncan beat both Shaq and Lebron in the playoffs on the road to the championship. For Lebron, Duncan beat him twice in the Finals...

Shaq
Duncan
Lebron/Kobe
Kobe/Lebron
ect
ect

[ArbitraryWater]

Oh okay. I understand.

For me personally, I'm not too fond of the a number listing of 10. It find it a bit too simple. What exactly is the difference between 9 and 10? Or 11 and 12, going beyond the top 10? Tiers is my favorite. Although it may seem like a bit of a cop out in saying player a>player b, I find it to be a better. Some of these players play different positions and different styles. Sometimes work better than the other, sometimes they work equally.

In terms prime and longevity prime, I think it depends. Like how much do we value getting a ring in your prime as oppose to out of your prime? Gary Payton has a ring outside of his prime, yet has his legacy changed much at all? Kareem has six rings, but does that last one really count? He was still solid, but it wasn't like he was playing his 1980 self or even in the 70s. His 1987 self contributed more.

Same thing with Karl Malone and Barkley. Barkley had a shorter prime, but probably a better peak and prime overall than Malone. KM has more MVPs. Yet you still find ppl arguing over who is better and who to put over who in their all time list.

And this is a similar case for D-Wade too, except he has rings. But even despite the rings, some would rank that Barkley and Karl Malone.



Well, couldn't you argue that Curry accomplish more in a shorter time span than Durant tho? Afterall, Curry has two MVPs, been to two finals, and has one ring. Durant has one MVP, one finals. If their careers ended right, wouldn't Curry's resume be better? He has done more in the 7 years he has been in the league than Durant's 9.

I'm not saying one has to rank one over the other, I'm just curious of how DMAVS41 does the ranking. And I could totally understand the other point of level of performance and doing it for longer, which is what he is saying it seems. Especially since Curry did not play well in the finals. He didn't play up to his regular season standard overall in the playoffs either.

Nah, KD has just done much more.. you wouldnt take Walton over KD either. KD has had more MVP level seasons than Curry, even with one less MVP.


2016 Curry / 2014 Durant

2012 Durant
2015 Curry
2013 Durant
2016 Durant

2011 Durant
2014 Curry
2013 Curry

[ArbitraryWater]

Thinking logically, if you have Shaq above Lebron, wouldn't you need to have Duncan over him too. Duncan beat both Shaq and Lebron in the playoffs on the road to the championship. For Lebron, Duncan beat him twice in the Finals...

Shaq
Duncan
Lebron/Kobe
Kobe/Lebron
ect
ect


sounds just a tiny bit too simplistic lol

[NBAGOAT]

Oh okay. I understand.

For me personally, I'm not too fond of the a number listing of 10. It find it a bit too simple. What exactly is the difference between 9 and 10? Or 11 and 12, going beyond the top 10? Tiers is my favorite. Although it may seem like a bit of a cop out in saying player a>player b, I find it to be a better. Some of these players play different positions and different styles. Sometimes work better than the other, sometimes they work equally.

In terms prime and longevity prime, I think it depends. Like how much do we value getting a ring in your prime as oppose to out of your prime? Gary Payton has a ring outside of his prime, yet has his legacy changed much at all? Kareem has six rings, but does that last one really count? He was still solid, but it wasn't like he was playing his 1980 self or even in the 70s. His 1987 self contributed more.

Same thing with Karl Malone and Barkley. Barkley had a shorter prime, but probably a better peak and prime overall than Malone. KM has more MVPs. Yet you still find ppl arguing over who is better and who to put over who in their all time list.

And this is a similar case for D-Wade too, except he has rings. But even despite the rings, some would rank that Barkley and Karl Malone.



Well, couldn't you argue that Curry accomplish more in a shorter time span than Durant tho? Afterall, Curry has two MVPs, been to two finals, and has one ring. Durant has one MVP, one finals. If their careers ended right, wouldn't Curry's resume be better? He has done more in the 7 years he has been in the league than Durant's 9.

I'm not saying one has to rank one over the other, I'm just curious of how DMAVS41 does the ranking. And I could totally understand the other point of level of performance and doing it for longer, which is what he is saying it seems. Especially since Curry did not play well in the finals. He didn't play up to his regular season standard overall in the playoffs either.

I agree with tiers but people always love going to 5 or 10 for lists. I think the top 8 are pretty clear above the rest but after that a lot of guys are pretty close and arguable. I value peak/prime play more than longevity but part of prime play is how long your prime was. Rings in your prime are most valuable but I don't put the biggest impact on rings. A lot of other stuff goes into it ofc and plenty of guys have had their peaks in years they didn't win a championship. Curry does have more accomplishments and I say better peak (2016 vs 2014 for Durant). However I argue Durant since since Curry has maybe 2-3 superstar level years and 1-2 all star level years. Durant has 6 superstar level years.

[BenchMob]

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. LeBron
5. KG
6. Dirk
7. KD

[Wade's Rings]

Since when is kg/dirk better than wade?:oldlol:

I feel KG's career has been underrated. I probably would have to look at the accolades, stats, etc again but KG has had the better career IMO. I think Wade is better than Dirk but Mavs fans disagree.

[ArbitraryWater]

I feel KG's career has been underrated. I probably would have to look at the accolades, stats, etc again but KG has had the better career IMO. I think Wade is better than Dirk but Mavs fans disagree.

Im pretty sure Dirk >> Wade is the consensus to just about anywhere you'll go

That shit wont even be entertained on RealGM

[Wade's Rings]

Im pretty sure Dirk >> Wade is the consensus to just about anywhere you'll go

:oldlol:


That shit wont even be entertained on RealGM

Is this supposed to mean something to me?

BTW you never replied to my post about Wade's laughable longevity.

[SouBeachTalents]

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. KG
6. Dirk
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. Kidd

[ArbitraryWater]

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. KG
6. Dirk
7. Wade
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. Kidd

Mavs fan spotted :D




nah man for real.. at one point even the stans have to deal with it. Its like with Kobe stans coming to grips that Bron >>.. that same ownage is what Dirk will always have on D-Wade. Its okay though. No shame in top 25.

[Wade's Rings]

Mavs fan spotted :D




nah man for real.. at one point even the stans have to deal with it. Its like with Kobe stans coming to grips that Bron >>.. that same ownage is what Dirk will always have on D-Wade. Its okay though. No shame in top 25.

It's nothing with stanning a player idiot, you're the only one doing that here. I've said already I have no problem with people saying Dirk is better, just that I disagree. You making claims like "Im pretty sure Dirk >> Wade is the consensus to just about anywhere you'll go" is just laughable, you're the one that sounds like moronic stan right now. :oldlol:

At least back up what you're posting, earlier you said Dirk's longevity ('02-'14) greater than Wade's ('05-'12). I said if you're including '13 and '14 for Dirk (he played 53 games in '13) include the same years for Wade. Instead of backing up what you're saying you avoid both of my posts on this topic but we're the stans.

I remember one time you saying '09 Dirk > '09 Wade, when a response came in proving Wade was better you never responded but again we're the stans. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

It's nothing with stanning a player idiot, you're the only one doing that here. I've said already I have no problem with people saying Dirk is better, just that I disagree. You making claims like "Im pretty sure Dirk >> Wade is the consensus to just about anywhere you'll go" is just laughable, you're the one that sounds like moronic stan right now. :oldlol:

At least back up what you're posting, earlier you said Dirk's longevity ('02-'14) greater than Wade's ('05-'12). I said if you're including '13 and '14 for Dirk (he played 53 games in '13) include the same years for Wade. Instead of backing up what you're saying you avoid both of my posts on this topic but we're the stans.

I remember one time you saying '09 Dirk > '09 Wade, when a response came in proving Wade was better you never responded but again we're the stans. :oldlol:

Meh, I flip flop.. '09 Wade, not by much.

'02-'16 Dirk v.s. '05-'13 Wade (he does deserve '13), and then '16 again (he was pretty shit, of course in relative terms, the last two years... even defensively. Its really not that close, dude. The difference in elite years is humongous. Got the injured Wade seasons with 05, 07, 08 too...

its embarrassing to have the discussion. Just like the Bron/Kobe one. Like I said, no shame in top 25, bro :cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Meh, I flip flop.. '09 Wade, not by much.

'02-'16 Dirk v.s. '05-'13 Wade (he does deserve '13), and then '16 again (he was pretty shit, of course in relative terms, the last two years... even defensively. Its really not that close, dude. The difference in elite years is humongous. Got the injured Wade seasons with 05, 07, 08 too...

its embarrassing to have the discussion. Just like the Bron/Kobe one. Like I said, no shame in top 25, bro :cheers:

Now it's '02-'16 Dirk, then you're going to have to include '15 and '16 for Wade. He got hurt in '05 in the Conference Finals but he still dropped 27/6/7 in the postseason and made the Conference Finals. Wade was hurt in '07 and '08 and played 51 games both years yet you include a year 34yr old Dirk played 53 games. :oldlol:

[GrapeApe]

I guess I'd look at it in tiers (not necessarily in order within the tiers).

First tier: Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe.

Second tier: KG, Dirk, Wade.

Those seem to be the near consensus top 7.

Third tier: Durant, Curry, Iverson

Third tier bubble: Kidd, Nash, Pierce

[raprap]

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. Garnett
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. Iverson/Nash

[SamuraiSWISH]

Since '98 Bulls MJ?

Tier 1
1) LeBron

Tier 2
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Shaq

Tier 3
5) Wade
6) Garnett

Tier 4
7) Durant
8) Iverson
9) Dirk

Tier 5
10) Kidd / Nash / Curry / Westbrook

HM: McGrady, Pierce, VC, and Melo

[SouBeachTalents]

Since '98 Bulls MJ?

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Shaq
5) Wade
6) Garnett
7) Durant
8) Iverson
9) Dirk
10) Kidd / Nash / Curry / Westbrook

HM: McGrady, Pierce, VC, and Melo

Dirk at 9 brah, below Durant & Iverson?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dirk at 9 brah, below Durant & Iverson?
Easily. Durant is a better version of him and Iverson was more dimensional. He's still top ten since Mike, so what's the beef? I rather have those other guys than him when building a team. It's that simple.

[HighFlyer23]

Shaq is still the best player since MJ

Then Duncan, Lebron and Kobe are a level below

[aj1987]

Im pretty sure Dirk >> Wade is the consensus to just about anywhere you'll go

That shit wont even be entertained on RealGM
RealGM is probably THE worst board. ISH is significantly better compared to RealGM's advanced stat nerds. FFS, those nerds ranked Bird at #10, Kobe at #13, KG at #11, and Moses at #19. Just go look where they ranked Nash and CP3.

[feyki]

RealGM is probably THE worst board. ISH is significantly better compared to RealGM's advanced stat nerds. FFS, those nerds ranked Bird at #10, Kobe at #13, KG at #11, and Moses at #19. Just go look where they ranked Nash and CP3.

I saw a few solid posts over there when looking old threads . And still a few posters really good .

But i don't understand that , Why everyone thinking same thing , like united ? It's weird .

[Quickening]

RealGM is probably THE worst board. ISH is significantly better compared to RealGM's advanced stat nerds. FFS, those nerds ranked Bird at #10, Kobe at #13, KG at #11, and Moses at #19. Just go look where they ranked Nash and CP3.

You mean they rank objectively and without bias, Kobe is realistically around the 13 mark, if you think thats ridiculous you're only showing your own agenda.

[aj1987]

You mean they rank objectively and without bias, Kobe is realistically around the 13 mark, if you think thats ridiculous you're only showing your own agenda.
1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron/Magic
6. Magic/LeBron
7. Duncan/Kobe
8. Kobe/Duncan
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

That's the top 10, IMO. There haven't been 13 players in the history of the league, who have had better careers than Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron/Magic
6. Magic/LeBron
7. Duncan/Kobe
8. Kobe/Duncan
9. Bird
10. Hakeem

That's the top 10, IMO. There haven't been 13 players in the history of the league, who have had better careers than Kobe.The majority of basketball fans don't have Kobe in the top 10. Probably not top 11. So realgm have it spot on.

You're in the minority I'm afraid :rockon:

[brownmamba00]

Kobe
Shaq
James
Duncan
Wade

Dirk
KG
Kidd
Iverson
KD

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe
Shaq
James
Duncan
Wade

Dirk
KG
Kidd
Iverson
KD

:lebronamazed::lol

[ArbitraryWater]

I saw a few solid posts over there when looking old threads . And still a few posters really good .

But i don't understand that , Why everyone thinking same thing , like united ? It's weird .

thats true, the general mindset is so similar its weird at times :lol

But theyre obviously a better bunch of posters with their retro projects..

[Odinn]

RealGM is probably THE worst board. ISH is significantly better compared to RealGM's advanced stat nerds. FFS, those nerds ranked Bird at #10, Kobe at #13, KG at #11, and Moses at #19. Just go look where they ranked Nash and CP3.
I was part of that board at the time. They have less stans compared to ISH. But I hated there. They are obsessed with advanced stats. They don't know a sh!t about before Jordan. I tried to explain how PER is calculated and why most of '80s legends have lower PER due to the formula. Bird and Moses led the league in PER a couple of times but their PER was around 25-26.

They just don't get the idea of weighted calculation. I, by myself, can change a few multipliers of advanced stat formulas, and it can lead to way different results.

For most of these idiots at there, KG > Moses and it's not even up to debate. In reality it's the other way around.

[ArbitraryWater]

Since '98 Bulls MJ?

Tier 1
1) LeBron

Tier 2
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Shaq

Tier 3
5) Wade
6) Garnett

Tier 4
7) Durant
8) Iverson
9) Dirk

Tier 5
10) Kidd / Nash / Curry / Westbrook

HM: McGrady, Pierce, VC, and Melo

You watched bball for so long but your biases regarding Shaq and others just render you useless in the end :lol

[Mr Feeny]

I was part of that board at the time. They have less stans compared to ISH. But I hated there. They are obsessed with advanced stats. They don't know a sh!t about before Jordan. I tried to explain how PER is calculated and why most of '80s legends have lower PER due to the formula. Bird and Moses led the league in PER a couple of times but their PER was around 25-26.

They just don't get the idea of weighted calculation. I, by myself, can change a few multipliers of advanced stat formulas, and it can lead to way different results.

For most of these idiots at there, KG > Moses and it's not even up to debate. In reality it's the other way around.

Would you explain to the rest of us why PER can't be compared across eras? Why is there a need for weighted calculations?thanks

[ImKobe]

lol at KD over Dirk/KG/Wade, at this point I can't even put him above AI in terms of personal accomplishments, both have 1 MVP and a bunch of scoring titles and both lost the Finals in 5 games though KD has significantly more help.

[ArbitraryWater]

Now it's '02-'16 Dirk, then you're going to have to include '15 and '16 for Wade. He got hurt in '05 in the Conference Finals but he still dropped 27/6/7 in the postseason and made the Conference Finals. Wade was hurt in '07 and '08 and played 51 games both years yet you include a year 34yr old Dirk played 53 games. :oldlol:

issue?

Yea, I included '16 Wade.

Here...

Elite Years:

Wade: 2005 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
Dirk: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011

Great Years:

Wade: 2012
Dirk: 2002, 2004, 2008, 2014

Good Years:

Wade: 2013, 2015, 2016
Dirk: 2001, 2012, 2015, 2016

It's really not close dude. Like I said, top 25 is a great achievement for someone who's been injured so much and had his prime cut off... that means what was, was stellar. Wade's peak is likely above Dirk's, but Dirk's highest isn't far off, and he's just been around a high level for much, much longer..

agreed?

[ArbitraryWater]

I was part of that board at the time. They have less stans compared to ISH. But I hated there. They are obsessed with advanced stats. They don't know a sh!t about before Jordan. I tried to explain how PER is calculated and why most of '80s legends have lower PER due to the formula. Bird and Moses led the league in PER a couple of times but their PER was around 25-26.

They just don't get the idea of weighted calculation. I, by myself, can change a few multipliers of advanced stat formulas, and it can lead to way different results.

For most of these idiots at there, KG > Moses and it's not even up to debate. In reality it's the other way around.

They're really not open enough to other thoughts, either... if you put ISH's best against RGM's, ISH wins.. if we get ShaqAttack and fatal :P But overall, they just have less of a cluster fck

[feyki]

I cannot believe , how can people really trust in PER ?

That metric doesn't measure the half of the game , and too much scoring based on offensive side . Yes , We can see , who's more dominant scorer with PER . But , that's all .

Think Lebron had 29 PER in the last finals . And Wade had 33.8 for the 2006 . Like i said , it works just on scoring .

[ArbitraryWater]

I cannot believe , how can people really trust in PER ?

That metric doesn't measure the half of the game , and too much scoring based on offensive side . Yes , We can see , who's more dominant scorer with PER . But , that's all .

Think Lebron had 29 PER in the last finals . Like i said , it works just on scoring .

Eh, individual offense is a much bigger factor than individual defense... so it probably covers like 75-80%. Its a good stat, tbh.

[aj1987]

issue?

Yea, I included '16 Wade.

Here...

Elite Years:

Wade: 2005 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
Dirk: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011

Great Years:

Wade: 2012
Dirk: 2002, 2004, 2008, 2014

Good Years:

Wade: 2013, 2015, 2016
Dirk: 2001, 2012, 2015, 2016

It's really not close dude. Like I said, top 25 is a great achievement for someone who's been injured so much and had his prime cut off... that means what was, was stellar. Wade's peak is likely above Dirk's, but Dirk's highest isn't far off, and he's just been around a high level for much, much longer..

agreed?
Again, literally the only think Dirk has over Wade is longevity. How hard is that to understand? Wade is simply a better playmaker, defender, and arguably a better scorer as well. The only thing that Dirk has over Wade is shooting. Literally the only thing.

Also, Wade was just good in '13 and Dirk was elite in '07? What the **** are you smoking? What Wade did from '05 to '11 >>> anything that Dirk has ever done in his career. Oh, and after that, he won 2 more rings.


I was part of that board at the time. They have less stans compared to ISH. But I hated there. They are obsessed with advanced stats. They don't know a sh!t about before Jordan. I tried to explain how PER is calculated and why most of '80s legends have lower PER due to the formula. Bird and Moses led the league in PER a couple of times but their PER was around 25-26.

They just don't get the idea of weighted calculation. I, by myself, can change a few multipliers of advanced stat formulas, and it can lead to way different results.

For most of these idiots at there, KG > Moses and it's not even up to debate. In reality it's the other way around.
I've gone there a couple of times just to check out that place. It's like North Korea, compared to ISH's America.

I don't get why they put that much stock into advanced stats. Just ridiculous. Just a bunch of stat nerds, who have never even stepped foot onto a basketball court IRL.

[Odinn]

Would you explain to the rest of us why PER can't be compared across eras? Why is there a need for weighted calculations?thanks
PER uses iterations to establish 15.0 average for the entire league. You need to know how many iterations were used so you can talk about the stat's confidence level. And by every iteration, multipliers have a chance to be different.

Let me explain on TS%, which is easier on this matter. The formula of TS% calculation;
total points scored / ( (fg attempts + (ft attempts * 0.44) ) * 2 )
The claim about that 0.44 multiplier is it eliminates and1s, so we can see the efficiency py possesion. But to me, it's purely idiotic to apply to all players. How many and1s are taken by LeBron and by Curry? Surely LeBron gets way more and1s because he attacks the basket and Curry goes for jumpers.

[feyki]

Eh, individual offense is a much bigger factor than individual defense... so it probably covers like 75-80%. Its a good stat, tbh.

If it is , Lebron wouldn't got that ring . We all see how he dominated the game defensively .

Also , Nash's Suns perfect example for that too . If Offence builds %75 of the game , no way for Spurs to the championship .

[ArbitraryWater]

Again, literally the only think Dirk has over Wade is longevity. How hard is that to understand? Wade is simply a better playmaker, defender, and arguably a better scorer as well. The only thing that Dirk has over Wade is shooting. Literally the only thing.

Also, Wade was just good in '13 and Dirk was elite in '07? What the **** are you smoking? What Wade did from '05 to '11 >>> anything that Dirk has ever done in his career. Oh, and after that, he won 2 more rings.

You're looking at this the wrong way man.. Pippen is also a better playmaker and defender than alot of people, like Shaq, Kobe, or even Wade, and a better rebounder than Wade, too...

but you dont rank like that.

Theres benefits from being unguardable at 7 feet with league leading post/mid play, being the worst mismatch in basketball.

Gravitational impact. Dirk is less of a playmaker, yet, he doesnt need the box score assists, he still indirectly creates more for his teammates through his presence/floor stretching than Wade could attempt.

He's the most efficient top 10 ppg scorer in playoff history.

His teams have elite crunch time ratings because of his established face up game. Dirk can get to his sweet spots any time at any crucial point of a playoffs game, which is also why he has such a great big game resume. Huge advantage to have. Him being 7 foot is icing on the cake, comes in handy for all teammates who have an easier time chipping in, feeding off his spacing and screen setting.

Offensively, peak to peak, neck to neck, advantage Dirk, but Wade was a monster in his prime defensively... but since Wade cant cover enough years with his prime, and has fallen off considerably on the defensive end, its not a contest. Especially not offensively, as to who is creating more impact.

Ain't no shame in Wade's top 25 ranking :cheers: He was awesome. What could have been.. only fault is he should have adapted a much more capable long range shot.

[ArbitraryWater]

If it is , Lebron wouldn't got that ring . We all see how he dominated the game defensively .

Also , Nash's Suns perfect example for that too . If Offence builds %75 of the game , no way for Spurs to the championship .

Team defense.. defense has alot to do with the combined group effort and system. Plus, Suns wouldnt have needed a better defense, if Stoudemire/Marion dont get suspended, they would have done just fine against the Spurs.

[aj1987]

You're looking at this the wrong way man.. Pippen is also a better playmaker and defender than alot of people, like Shaq, Kobe, or even Wade, and a better rebounder than Wade, too...

but you dont rank like that.
The difference is that there's a significant gap in score to overcome the rebounding and defense.

Pippen is not a better playmaker than Wade, BTW.


Theres benefits from being unguardable at 7 feet with league leading post/mid play, being the worst mismatch in basketball.
Yet, he was considered to be an ATG level choker until he won his first and ONLY ring in '11 (thanks to LeBron's massive choke job). Now, people consider him to be a clutch god. This is not an insult and don't take it as such. I know that you weren't watching basketball prior to the '11 season or thereabouts, right? You could ask someone and they'd tell you the same.

The missed FT in '06, '07 PO's, '09, etc. basically put him out there as a massive choker. One ring and all that changed. Don't get me wrong. That was a legendary run. A top 15 ever PO run, but that one run completely changed the narrative.


Gravitational impact. Dirk is less of a playmaker, yet, he doesnt need the box score assists, he still indirectly creates more for his teammates through his presence/floor stretching than Wade could attempt.
Come one, kid. At least try not flat out lying when you post something.

To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.

Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).

1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4

2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7

3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1

4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7

5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9

6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3

7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9

8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2

9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3

10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1

[aj1987]

Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).

Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.

He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)

Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).

This was a way past his prime Wade, BTW. If you saw the PO's this season, you'd know that Wade was literally getting doubled one EVERY SINGLE possession in the 4th (sometimes in the 3rd as well). Wade might not be an elite jump shooter, but he demands just as much respect from defenders as elite jump shooters command.


He's the most efficient top 10 ppg scorer in playoff history.
Good for him.

His teams have elite crunch time ratings because of his established face up game. Dirk can get to his sweet spots any time at any crucial point of a playoffs game, which is also why he has such a great big game resume. Huge advantage to have. Him being 7 foot is icing on the cake, comes in handy for all teammates who have an easier time chipping in, feeding off his spacing and screen setting.


Offensively, peak to peak, neck to neck, advantage Dirk, but Wade was a monster in his prime defensively... but since Wade cant cover enough years with his prime, and has fallen off considerably on the defensive end, its not a contest. Especially not offensively, as to who is creating more impact.
How the **** does Dirk get the edge offensively? If you include passing AND scoring, Wade is significantly better than Dirk offensively. Lets also not forget that Miami's elite defense (with LeBron) worked thanks to Wade and his ability to cover large sections of the court. He was an elite defender as a rookie and showed why he's still a very good defender this postseason. Wade's defender, aside from his offense, was one of the main reasons as to why Miami went on that streak as well.


Ain't no shame in Dirk's top 25 ranking :cheers: He was awesome. What could have been.. only fault is he should have adapted a much more capable long range shot.
Agreed. Wade at worst is top 20. Dirk is pretty close as well. Probably 1-2 spots behind him.


Eh, individual offense is a much bigger factor than individual defense... so it probably covers like 75-80%. Its a good stat, tbh.
The '16 Finals disagree with you.

[ArbitraryWater]

You know the choking stuff is silly which is why you always end it with 'considered' or 'narrative' lol..

Wade isnt a better scorer than Dirk, nor makes scoring easier for teammates than Dirk (this should be obvious to anyone who can watch ball and notice a thing or two of whats happening on the court, instead of relying on some gravity article of last year).. so why exactly would I give him the edge on offense?

You are wayyy too sensitive and ignorant to have this discussion on a level headed basis... how many more 'Dirk was considered a choker', 'without LeBrons choke job hed be top 40', 'you didnt watch ball before_', etc will we get from you today? :D

rinse and repeat.. on your real14 shtick, just pro Wade adjusted and not illiterate

[ArbitraryWater]

The '16 Finals disagree with you.

why? Because Bron played great defense? :oldlol:

How do Kyrie's defensive contribution, compare to his offensive ones? And he was great defensively.. but saying theyd be anywhere near 50% is bull shit.

[aj1987]

You know the choking stuff is silly which is why you always end it with 'considered' or 'narrative' lol..

Wade isnt a better scorer than Dirk, nor makes scoring easier for teammates than Dirk (this should be obvious to anyone who can watch ball and notice a thing or two of whats happening on the court, instead of relying on some gravity article of last year).. so why exactly would I give him the edge on offense?

You are wayyy too sensitive and ignorant to have this discussion on a level headed basis... how many more 'Dirk was considered a choker', 'without LeBrons choke job hed be top 40', 'you didnt watch ball before_', etc will we get from you today? :D

rinse and repeat.. on your real14 shtick, just pro Wade adjusted and not illiterate
Ugh. I post facts and all you can come up with is rhetorical drivel? I post a FACT about how Wade's sucks in the defense more than Dirk and all you can come up with is "but but Dirk is better".

Shouldn't really expect more than that from someone who started watching basketball like 4 years ago.

EDIT: real14 posts EXACTLY like you. 0 basketball substance. His posts are 'im right and your wron". You guys are identical, although your grammar is better.


How do Kyrie's defensive contribution, compare to his offensive ones? And he was great defensively.. but saying theyd be anywhere near 50% is bull shit.
How does Iggy's defensive contributions compare to his offensive contributions in '15?

Yeah, LeBron was GREAT defensively. They were able to shutdown the Warriors and was one of the reasons why they won the last 2 games. Their defense.

Also, how does Love's defensive contribution compare to his offensive contribution in the final game?

[ArbitraryWater]

Ugh. I post facts and all you can come up with is rhetorical drivel? I post a FACT about how Wade's sucks in the defense more than Dirk and all you can come up with is "but but Dirk is better".

Shouldn't really expect more than that from someone who started watching basketball like 4 years ago.


How does Iggy's defensive contributions compare to his offensive contributions in '15?

Yeah, LeBron was GREAT defensively. They were able to shutdown the Warriors and was one of the reasons why they won the last 2 games. Their defense.

Also, how does Love's defensive contribution compare to his offensive contribution in the final game?

Iggy is literally one of three players ever to win FMVP while scoring under 16 ppg or under... nice job, making my case :oldlol:

Love forced Curry into a tough shot on a possession...

do you even know what youre arguing? This seems like you once again have no idea what youve gotten into...

if offense and defense would both rank exactly the same...

then please rank Magic's and Payton's, offense and defense each, on a scale of 1-10.... and come back to tell me who the more impactful player was.. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Ugh. I post facts and all you can come up with is rhetorical drivel? I post a FACT about how Wade's sucks in the defense more than Dirk and all you can come up with is "but but Dirk is better".

what are you even trying to say here?

[aj1987]

Iggy is literally one of three players ever to win FMVP while scoring under 16 ppg or under... nice job, making my case
'14 Spurs were better defensive than offensively. Kawhi was a better defensive player than offensive player.


Love forced Curry into a tough shot on a possession...
While I absolutely detest advanced stats, Love had the LOWEST DRtg from both teams (10+ MPG). I can't find his G7 defense tracking stats, dude was -18.4% at the O. Held his defensive covers to 18.4% below their usual percentages. In 2 games. Not a small FGA sample size either. Dude defended 13.5 FGA's.

Try giving credit when it's due once in a while.



do you even know what youre arguing? This seems like you once again have no idea what youve gotten into...
Come back when you can back up your claims, kid. With FACTS. Not just "cause I said so".


then please rank Magic's and Payton's, offense and defense each, on a scale of 1-10.... :oldlol:
If Magic didn't have ATG defenders on his team, he wouldn't have those 5 rings.

That being said, offense is not 80% of the game as you claimed. Look at the top 10 players in the history of the game.

MJ
KAJ
BR
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Hakeem

Except Magic, all the others were very good defenders. Almost all ATG players are. Outside Magic and Bird, the rest are elite-DPOY level defenders.

If you actually think PER is a good indicator of a players abilities, then Wade absolutely murks Dirk. Not even close to be honest. Then there's the other 20%-25% (defense, according to you), in which Wade is significantly better than Dirk as well.


what are you even trying to say here?
Go back and read my post. Wade commands more defensive attention than Dirk. I've actually backed it up with FACTS. Something which you're incapable of doing.

[West-Side]

1) Kobe
2) Duncan
3) LeBron
4) Shaq
5) Garnett
6) Dirk
7) Wade
8) Kidd
9) Durant
10) Nash

LeBron will be #1 on the list, most likely, once his career is over. He still has 4-5 solid years left in him.

[ArbitraryWater]

You either keep making my point, missing my point, or speaking of outliers, which again, only makes my point...

the '14 Spurs being better defensively than offensively is at worst debatable, if not already head scratching, but it misses the point, its not about what a TEAM sets out to do... a team can put their focus on the defensive end as much as they do offensively.

"Kawhi was a better defensive than..." right, now go back in history to find all the other best players on title teams with a bigger defensive than offensive impact. Russell, Pistons, and? Thanks for playing. Thats what I call, OUTLIER.

So do you detest them or actually believe Love was a great defender this series? Thats why actually watching is important... Love was a liability at times.

PER is a decent stat thats it. No stat works as single end all/be all. Stop trying to put words in my mouth you filthy Indian :lol

As for this little game... please answer :D



if offense and defense would both rank exactly the same...

then please rank Magic's and Payton's, offense and defense each, on a scale of 1-10.... and come back to tell me who the more impactful player was.. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

You either keep making my point, missing my point, or speaking of outliers, which again, only makes my point...

the '14 Spurs being better defensively than offensively is at worst debatable, if not already head scratching, but it misses the point, its not about what a TEAM sets out to do... a team can put their focus on the defensive end as much as they do offensively.

"Kawhi was a better defensive than..." right, now go back in history to find all the other best players on title teams with a bigger defensive than offensive impact. Russell, Pistons, and? Thanks for playing. Thats what I call, OUTLIER.
SMDH! You keep missing my point. Offense is NOT 80% of the game. I'm not claiming that defense is more important than offense, but claiming that defense is only 20% of the game just exposes you BB IQ.... rather the lack of it.


So do you detest them or actually believe Love was a great defender this series? Thats why actually watching is important... Love was a liability at times.
He was great in G7. I've said that earlier as well. His offense was putrid, but showed up defensively in a game which the Cavs shutdown the Warriors' offense.


PER is a decent stat thats it. No stat works as single end all/be all. Stop trying to put words in my mouth you filthy Indian


Its a good stat, tbh.
From your mouth, you retarded sausage muncher.

[ArbitraryWater]

SMDH! You keep missing my point. Offense is NOT 80% of the game. I'm not claiming that defense is more important than offense, but claiming that defense is only 20% of the game just exposes you BB IQ.... rather the lack of it.


He was great in G7. I've said that earlier as well. His offense was putrid, but showed up defensively in a game which the Cavs shutdown the Warriors' offense.




From your mouth, you retarded sausage muncher.

I didnt say offense is 80% of the game :oldlol: I said for the individual... a single players impact comes 75-80% from the offensive side, at the end of the day, its a game about putting the ball in the basket.

How exactly does you re-quoting what I just told you, with the word 'good' instead of 'decent', help your case, again, at all?

You have alarmingly low awareness.

You're still dodging this worse than Wade a doping control though :D




if offense and defense would both rank exactly the same...

then please rank Magic's and Payton's, offense and defense each, on a scale of 1-10.... and come back to tell me who the more impactful player was.. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

I didnt say offense is 80% of the game :oldlol: I said for the individual... a single players impact comes 75-80% from the offensive side, at the end of the day, its a game about putting the ball in the basket.

How exactly does you re-quoting what I just told you, with the word 'good' instead of 'decent', help your case, again, at all?

You have alarmingly low awareness.
Jesus Christ! You're unbelievably retarded. If a player drops 20 points a game, but is giving up 25 on the other end, you think he's being impactful? There's a reason why players who are bad defenders get exposed when they don't have a ton of other to cover their defensive inadequacies. Not really that hard to understand for anyone with an IQ over a single digit.


You're still dodging this worse than Wade a doping control though :D
Cringe AF. Stick to trolling Kobe stans, retarded Kraut.

I'm done with your dumbass. Can't deal with this level of stupidity.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jesus Christ! You're unbelievably retarded. If a player drops 20 points a game, but is giving up 25 on the other end, you think he's being impactful? There's a reason why players who are bad defenders get exposed when they don't have a ton of other to cover their defensive inadequacies. Not really that hard to understand for anyone with an IQ over a single digit.


Cringe AF. Stick to trolling Kobe stans, retarded Kraut.

I'm done with your dumbass. Can't deal with this level of stupidity.

the thing is, this never happens... thats why your entire point is moot. Even Harden at best gives up like 15 singlehandedly in one game.

Thats why... I have a little game prepared for my brown friend over hea :D




if offense and defense would both rank exactly the same...

then please rank Magic's and Payton's, offense and defense each, on a scale of 1-10.... and come back to tell me who the more impactful player was.. :oldlol:

go!

[aj1987]

the thing is, this never happens... thats why your entire point is moot. Even Harden at best gives up like 15 singlehandedly in one game.

Thats why... I have a little game prepared for my brown friend over hea :D

go!
As I said, at best, you have a single digit IQ, Kraut.

[feyki]

Team defense.. defense has alot to do with the combined group effort and system. Plus, Suns wouldnt have needed a better defense, if Stoudemire/Marion dont get suspended, they would have done just fine against the Spurs.

Well , how do you imagine that team defence w/out Lebron ?

I was talking about 2005 . But your 2007 point was totally self contradictory . Think about game 5 and Dray in this finals .

[sd3035]

LeBron
Shaq
Duncan
Gasol


you forgot Odom and Farmar :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

You watched bball for so long but your biases regarding Shaq and others just render you useless in the end :lol
Your opinion has always been useless, newbie. Not 2x months ago you claimed Curry > Kobe.

:oldlol:

And what Shaq bias are we talking? I ranked him fairly. He's 3rd or 4th best since MJ. And somewhere between #6 - #10 all time.

You have a bias hard on for Dirk and obvious disdain for Kobe. So why does that make your opinions more valid? E

specially being so new to the sport and so quick to latch on to prisoner of the moment sports hype?

[IllegalD]

Your opinion has always been useless, newbie. Not 2x months ago you claimed Curry > Kobe.

:oldlol:

And what Shaq bias are we talking? I ranked him fairly. He's 3rd or 4th best since MJ. And somewhere between #6 - #10 all time.

You have a bias hard on for Dirk and obvious disdain for Kobe. So why does that make your opinions more valid? E

specially being so new to the sport and so quick to latch on to prisoner of the moment sports hype?

:eek:

DAYUM!!! Rekt that little fago's butthole with one swift samurai sword swish.

:roll: :lol

[sd3035]

Your opinion has always been useless, newbie. Not 2x months ago you claimed Curry > Kobe.

:oldlol:

And what Shaq bias are we talking? I ranked him fairly. He's 3rd or 4th best since MJ. And somewhere between #6 - #10 all time.

You have a bias hard on for Dirk and obvious disdain for Kobe. So why does that make your opinions more valid? E

specially being so new to the sport and so quick to latch on to prisoner of the moment sports hype?

:lol

[DMAVS41]

AW...stop stealing my ideas. Or at least say it's mine about the Magic vs Payton and defense vs offense stuff.

I won't get into that part of this.

As for Dirk vs Wade. At their best...they are similar level players. I think I'd give Wade the slight nod though because he really could dominate and control an entire game in a way Dirk couldn't. Now, you could argue that the rules change after 04 just inherently changed the value of players like Wade for the positive...and I wouldn't disagree, but it is what it is.

However, it's very close...and there is definitely hidden value to Dirk and his ability to make life easier for his teammates in large and real ways that don't show up in any conventional metric.

Dirk deserves the nod all time though because while their peaks / primes in terms of level of play are similar...their longevity is not. Dirk has been one of the most durable superstars ever and has had an unreal career in terms of longevity...and if last year is any indication...he's still going strong.

He just got done averaging 21/8/2 56% TS over the last two playoffs he's played.

So I think it's more than fair to give Wade the slight nod in terms of play at their best...but it is slight...it is not a large gap either way. But no way can you place Wade over Dirk on an all time list factoring in durability and longevity.

[Rocketswin2013]

1. Duncan/LeBron(coin flip imo)
3. Shaq
4. Dirk/Garnett(another coinflip)
6. Kobe
7.Wade
8.Durant
9. Nash
10. Curry

[SamuraiSWISH]

1. Duncan/LeBron(coin flip imo)
3. Shaq
4. Dirk/Garnett(another coinflip)
6. Kobe
7.Wade
8.Durant
9. Nash
10. Curry
Dirk and KG over Kobe is hilarious.

[Rocketswin2013]

Dirk and KG over Kobe is hilarious.
why

[SamuraiSWISH]

why
Easily better player, more dimensional and accomplished than Dirk. Hell, he'd probably tell you this himself. Same number of MVPs, but 4x more titles. Just factoring in defense this is a no contest.

Better closer, scorer, winner and leader compared to KG. Same number of MVPs, but 4x more titles.

[NBAGOAT]

I was part of that board at the time. They have less stans compared to ISH. But I hated there. They are obsessed with advanced stats. They don't know a sh!t about before Jordan. I tried to explain how PER is calculated and why most of '80s legends have lower PER due to the formula. Bird and Moses led the league in PER a couple of times but their PER was around 25-26.

They just don't get the idea of weighted calculation. I, by myself, can change a few multipliers of advanced stat formulas, and it can lead to way different results.

For most of these idiots at there, KG > Moses and it's not even up to debate. In reality it's the other way around.

KG gets love there because of RAPM and those impact stats, not PER however. Just curious, what's your main argument for Moses since I also have KG above him. Is it the scoring disparity and ability?

[Odinn]

KG gets love there because of RAPM and those impact stats, not PER however. Just curious, what's your main argument for Moses since I also have KG above him. Is it the scoring disparity and ability?
Thing about comparing KG against relatively one-dimensional players like Moses or Dirk, you can not simply say;
KG's offense 8 + KG's defense 8
Moses' offense 9 + Moses' defense 5
Hence, KG > Moses or Dirk.

I won't even bother to compare KG to Moses for long TBH. This should alone explain why I don't have high regards for KG;
KG only averaged 25+ ppg in playoff series twice. 30+ ppg, never. And it wasn't like he sacrificed his stats so his teammates can have. His scoring output simply was not there.
Moses on the other hand, bullied KAJ with 31 ppg against him in 1981 to lead his team to the Finals.

I'm a Duncan fan and I know he wasn't an all-time great scorer, like Shaq. But when needed his scoring was there. He was the go-to-guy. This can be said for many other all-time great bigs that KG can be compared to, and I'd pick any of 'em over KG. (Moses, Nowitzki, Barkley, Ewing)

[NBAGOAT]

Thing about comparing KG against relatively one-dimensional players like Moses or Dirk, you can not simply say;
KG's offense 8 + KG's defense 8
Moses' offense 9 + Moses' defense 5
Hence, KG > Moses or Dirk.

I won't even bother to compare KG to Moses for long TBH. This should alone explain why I don't have high regards for KG;
KG only averaged 25+ ppg in playoff series twice. 30+ ppg, never. And it wasn't like he sacrificed his stats so his teammates can have. His scoring output simply was not there.
Moses on the other hand, bullied KAJ with 31 ppg against him in 1981 to lead his team to the Finals.

I'm a Duncan fan and I know he wasn't an all-time great scorer, like Shaq. But when needed his scoring was there. He was the go-to-guy. This can be said for many other all-time great bigs that KG can be compared to, and I'd pick any of 'em over KG. (Moses, Nowitzki, Barkley, Ewing)

I get it then, you value scoring ability from your number 1 option. KG was never up there and even less so in the playoffs. Did you believe Draymond was a top 10 guy this year or did you not care as much about his lack of scoring since he was a 3rd option.

[Odinn]

I get it then, you value scoring ability from your number 1 option. KG was never up there and even less so in the playoffs. Did you believe Draymond was a top 10 guy this year or did you not care as much about his lack of scoring since he was a 3rd option.
If he's not capable of being the go-to-guy why consider him as the 1st scoring option. That's how I see it.
And, in a season a player can be one of top 10 players. Surely, I was talking about among all-time greats. These 2 are different topics for me.

[ArbitraryWater]

AW...stop stealing my ideas. Or at least say it's mine about the Magic vs Payton and defense vs offense stuff.

Ive always known and always said that... really?!??! WTF

Whats stolen, you believing individual offense ranks higher than individual defense? What a concept.... dude

[DMAVS41]

Ive always known and always said that... really?!??! WTF

Whats stolen, you believing individual offense ranks higher than individual defense? What a concept.... dude

Dude...I was just joking and ruffling your feathers.

You definitely got the Magic / Gary Payton thing from me though...I've used that specific example on here to make that same point a number of times. Shit...maybe I used Nash and Payton. I don't know...I'm old.

But to be clear...I actually don't care if you use it. I was totally joking.

:cheers:

[NBAGOAT]

If he's not capable of being the go-to-guy why consider him as the 1st scoring option. That's how I see it.
And, in a season a player can be one of top 10 players. Surely, I was talking about among all-time greats. These 2 are different topics for me.

I see. Let me play Devil's advocate then. How would you compare someone like Pierce to Garnett all time then. Obviously better as a go to scorer, and has decent enough longevity. Consensus is however he's not even close Garnett on an all time list and Garnett was pretty much better every year during their careers.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude...I was just joking and ruffling your feathers.

You definitely got the Magic / Gary Payton thing from me though...I've used that specific example on here to make that same point a number of times. Shit...maybe I used Nash and Payton. I don't know...I'm old.

But to be clear...I actually don't care if you use it. I was totally joking.

:cheers:

Ive had other examples around in my head involving Pippen.. Pippen and Payton work best, since theyre 2 of the top 30 GOATs, who play both sides, but probably have a bigger impact defensively. Or the closest to it. And Magic is obviously an easy one.

Okay then. Hard to tell over text I guess, my bad

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes old man, it was Nash/Payton :D

this is what comes up when googling 'DMAVS individual offense defense'

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236652&page=17

[riseagainst]

1. Lebron
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Garnett
5. Kobe

[Odinn]

I see. Let me play Devil's advocate then. How would you compare someone like Pierce to Garnett all time then. Obviously better as a go to scorer, and has decent enough longevity. Consensus is however he's not even close Garnett on an all time list and Garnett was pretty much better every year during their careers.
Like I said, you are getting off topic. I don't see much in common.

Scoring output, being go-to-guy, it's the decisive thing between KG and Moses, Nowitzki, Barkley, Ewing. It's the deal breaker.
When you compare Shaq to Kareem, this is not a factor because they're proven names on this matter. When you have an all-time great, you expect from him to lead you to the title, you surely need some serious level scoring power.
Look at the names at KG's level on all-time greats list;
Nowitzki, Wade, Barkley, Ewing. (Moses is on the next higher level IMO) Nowitzki and Wade led their teams to title. I don't think you can point fingers at Barkley and Ewing coz of Jordan. Both of them went up against him while scoring lots of points, and still lost.

All in all;
Draymond Green, way off topic.
You can recognize PP34 as an all-time great. And don't think I'm saying he doesn't deserve the title. But you just want to get me sidetracked. That is all. Any person with a proper mind for arguing would have understood my point and wouldn't ask me these questions.

[NBAGOAT]

Like I said, you are getting off topic. I don't see much in common.

Scoring output, being go-to-guy, it's the decisive thing between KG and Moses, Nowitzki, Barkley, Ewing. It's the deal breaker.
When you compare Shaq to Kareem, this is not a factor because they're proven names on this matter. When you have an all-time great, you expect from him to lead you to the title, you surely need some serious level scoring power.
Look at the names at KG's level on all-time greats list;
Nowitzki, Wade, Barkley, Ewing. (Moses is on the next higher level IMO) Nowitzki and Wade led their teams to title. I don't think you can point fingers at Barkley and Ewing coz of Jordan. Both of them went up against him while scoring lots of points, and still lost.

All in all;
Draymond Green, way off topic.
You can recognize PP34 as an all-time great. And don't think I'm saying he doesn't deserve the title. But you just want to get me sidetracked. That is all. Any person with a proper mind for arguing would have understood my point and wouldn't ask me these questions.

K I get your point then. I'll just say that I think you're undervaluing other aspects of the game even if scoring is the most important especially compared to guys like Dirk and Barkley who are kind of one dimensional. I'll point a finger at Ewing at least since his playoff scoring wasn't always the best but that's not really on topic either.

[ClipperRevival]

BBall isn't just about scoring. I love a guy like KG. So impactful in so many ways. Defense, rim protection, rebounding, ability to guard on the perimeter, very good passer, high bball IQ, great leader/teammate, high motor, back to the basket game, and great mid-range game. Sure, he wasn't Shaq/KAJ as a scorer but he was good enough.

I know this is blasphemy for a lot but I would take KG over Barkley any day of the week if I had to pick one. I want that all around game.

[Odinn]

K I get your point then. I'll just say that I think you're undervaluing other aspects of the game even if scoring is the most important especially compared to guys like Dirk and Barkley who are kind of one dimensional. I'll point a finger at Ewing at least since his playoff scoring wasn't always the best but that's not really on topic either.
Ewing can be another topic. Yeah. There was a thread about Moses vs. KG.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7895127&postcount=39
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7895127&postcount=43

Surely, you can read the full thread if you want to.

[Wade's Rings]

issue?

Yea, I included '16 Wade.

Here...

Elite Years:

Wade: 2005 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
Dirk: 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011

Great Years:

Wade: 2012
Dirk: 2002, 2004, 2008, 2014

Good Years:

Wade: 2013, 2015, 2016
Dirk: 2001, 2012, 2015, 2016

It's really not close dude. Like I said, top 25 is a great achievement for someone who's been injured so much and had his prime cut off... that means what was, was stellar. Wade's peak is likely above Dirk's, but Dirk's highest isn't far off, and he's just been around a high level for much, much longer..

agreed?

Seems solid enough.

[aj1987]

Seems solid enough.
I really do not understand how he ranked them. Did he take both RS and PO's into consideration? If so, Dirk's '07 campaign was shit. He also wasn't really elite in a ton of years compared to '12 and '13 Wade.

[Big164]

Only one actually beat MJ in a playoff series so he gets my vote.

1. Aristotle
2. Timmy
3. Brawn
4. 24
5. Diggler
6. Dell's son
7. KD
8. Flash
9. Lil Allen
10. Big Allen

[k0kakw0rld]

There is no way Durant is above Wade. Put some respect on Wade's name and I don't even like him like that. Duncan over LeBron I won't say anything, he is my dawg. But they are 1a and 1b.

Duncan won twice vs LeBron in the final, just saying :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

I really do not understand how he ranked them. Did he take both RS and PO's into consideration? If so, Dirk's '07 campaign was shit. He also wasn't really elite in a ton of years compared to '12 and '13 Wade.

Now that you said it, I have no idea. By general glance it seemed solid to me but now that you've pointed out the holes idk how he ranked them. There's nothing separating '14 Dirk from '13 Wade.

[NBAGOAT]

How does this look for Dirk vs Wade

Elite years:
Wade: 2005,2006,2009-2012
Dirk: 2003, 2005-2011

Great years:
Wade: 2013
Dirk: 2001, 2002,2004, 2014

Good years:
Wade: 2014-2016
Dirk: 2012, 2015, 2016

Injury years:
Wade 2007,2008
Dirk: 2013

[feyki]

How does this look for Dirk vs Wade

Elite years:
Wade: 2005,2006,2009-2012
Dirk: 2003, 2005-2011

Great years:
Wade: 2013
Dirk: 2001, 2002,2004, 2014

Good years:
Wade: 2014-2016
Dirk: 2012, 2015, 2016

Injury years:
Wade 2007,2008
Dirk: 2013

More like this , prime ;

Dirk - 01-12

Wade - 05-12

Past prime ..

Dirk - 14-16

Wade 13-16(13 is debatable )

[Just2McFly]

BBall isn't just about scoring. I love a guy like KG. So impactful in so many ways. Defense, rim protection, rebounding, ability to guard on the perimeter, very good passer, high bball IQ, great leader/teammate, high motor, back to the basket game, and great mid-range game. Sure, he wasn't Shaq/KAJ as a scorer but he was good enough.

I know this is blasphemy for a lot but I would take KG over Barkley any day of the week if I had to pick one. I want that all around game.
+1.

[ArbitraryWater]

How does this look for Dirk vs Wade

Elite years:
Wade: 2005,2006,2009-2012
Dirk: 2003, 2005-2011

Great years:
Wade: 2013
Dirk: 2001, 2002,2004, 2014

Good years:
Wade: 2014-2016
Dirk: 2012, 2015, 2016

Injury years:
Wade 2007,2008
Dirk: 2013

Probably about what I had.. although 2012 Wade wasnt elite. 2012 Wade was always spoken of in the circle of '00 Kobe, '95 Drexler.. and those guys werent elite. Not sure 2013 Wade deserves great.. and 2014 was just trash in the playoffs. Disgusting.

[ArbitraryWater]

Seems solid enough.

:cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

How does this look for Dirk vs Wade

Elite years:
Wade: 2005,2006,2009-2012
Dirk: 2003, 2005-2011

Great years:
Wade: 2013
Dirk: 2001, 2002,2004, 2014

Good years:
Wade: 2014-2016
Dirk: 2012, 2015, 2016

Injury years:
Wade 2007,2008
Dirk: 2013

:cheers:

'12 Wade is very underrated. He willingly became the 2nd option that year, we was easily still a 25/5/6 as 1st option. Played some of the best defense of his career.

[GINOBILI!]

Since '98.

Duncan
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Curry
Garnett
Wade
Kidd
Nash
Iverson

[Wade's Rings]

Probably about what I had.. although 2012 Wade wasnt elite. 2012 Wade was always spoken of in the circle of '00 Kobe, '95 Drexler.. and those guys werent elite. Not sure 2013 Wade deserves great.. and 2014 was just trash in the playoffs. Disgusting.

19/4/4 on 52%. He played good not great in that postseason but it was far from disgusting.

[NBAGOAT]

Probably about what I had.. although 2012 Wade wasnt elite. 2012 Wade was always spoken of in the circle of '00 Kobe, '95 Drexler.. and those guys werent elite. Not sure 2013 Wade deserves great.. and 2014 was just trash in the playoffs. Disgusting.

I might have a lower definition of elite however. I'm tempted to move a year like 02 into the elite category for example.

[ArbitraryWater]

:cheers:

'12 Wade is very underrated. He willingly became the 2nd option that year, we was easily still a 25/5/6 as 1st option. Played some of the best defense of his career.

Yes, but not elite... any time we've had a discussion on the best 2nd options, we grouped '95 Drexler/'00 Kobe/'12 Wade... thats a tier right there. You can add other guys obviously. But none of those are elite.

Its easy to take Kobe as example, who we all know went to elite by 2001.

[ArbitraryWater]

19/4/4 on 52%. He played good not great in that postseason but it was far from disgusting.

It was definitely nice prior to the finals... sitting 30 games seemed to pay off.

But then, the finals?

He was like the 10th best player in the series.... a PER of 11 (wtf, thats not even including his defense).

G2: 14 points
G4: 10 points on 3-13 23%
G5: 11 points on 4-12 33%

G4 after 3 quarters: (Heat down 24 - Game over) 4 points on 1-10

G5 after 3 quarters: (Heat down 19 - Game over) 8 points on 3-11

4 pts and 8 pts through the relevant stretch of the game, consecutively... on 4-21 shooting... I couldnt believe it at the time.

[Wade's Rings]

It was definitely nice prior to the finals... sitting 30 games seemed to pay off.

But then, the finals?

He was like the 10th best player in the series.... a PER of 11 (wtf, thats not even including his defense).

G2: 14 points
G4: 10 points on 3-13 23%
G5: 11 points on 4-12 33%

G4 after 3 quarters: (Heat down 24 - Game over) 4 points on 1-10

G5 after 3 quarters: (Heat down 19 - Game over) 8 points on 3-11

4 pts and 8 pts through the relevant stretch of the game, consecutively... on 4-21 shooting... I couldnt believe it at the time.

I agree he was trash in the Finals but you can't call his whole postseason disgusting because of it.

[aj1987]

I agree he was trash in the Finals but you can't call his whole postseason disgusting because of it.
AutisticWater. Dude massively overrates Dirks seasons and the seasons in which Wade averaged 23/5/5, he underrated them. Just trying to prop up his fap figures. As I said earlier, dude never watches the game and he started following basketball just a couple of year ago. Basically a retarded version of Peter Brand from Moneyball.

[ArbitraryWater]

I agree he was trash in the Finals but you can't call his whole postseason disgusting because of it.

Meh, the SAS final was really the only series that mattered, though.. that was disgusting. He looked pretty damn good just one previous round. Smh.

[KirbyPls]

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. Wade
6. Dirk
7. Garnett
8. Durant
9. Curry
10. Iverson/Nash

I'd might switch Curry and KD, but otherwise I agree.

For what it's worth Lebron is easily my favorite player, but I think Wade is a better basketball player and should rate higher than Dirk, though there are reasonable arguments to be made otherwise.

[Cold soul]

Since '98.

Duncan
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Curry
Garnett
Wade
Kidd
Nash
Iverson

Lol Curry over KG, Dirk, and Wade that's pretty damn stupid. Wow.. :oldlol: