Were Paul Pierce/Vince Carter/Ray Allen Superstars?

[CTbasketball92]

Just wondering. How would we look at these players in their primes in the 2011-2016 era? Are they definitely better than Jimmy Butler/Paul George?

I think so, but want your takes.

[feyki]

No doubt .

[SilkkTheShocker]

Definitely. Only knock I have is all 3 went through long periods of being irrelevant to playoff basketball. Pierce was definitely the best of the 5 players named.

[LilEddyCurry]

Depends how you view the definition of 'superstar'.. Vince had the most impact to the NBA and his franchise and equally dominant peak as the other two.

[NBAGOAT]

VC and Pierce at least were definitely superstars. VC was arguably a top 5 player in the league at some point and being the GOAT dunker helped. Pierce was a top 10 guy at one point too. Allen was more like 10-15 at his best but I consider him a superstar too. George might be comparable to prime Pierce even if I take Pierce, Butler comparable to Allen. VC in 01 is above all of them however.

[CTbasketball92]

VC and Pierce at least were definitely superstars. VC was arguably a top 5 player in the league at some point and being the GOAT dunker helped. Pierce was a top 10 guy at one point too. Allen was more like 10-15 at his best but I consider him a superstar too. George might be comparable to prime Pierce even if I take Pierce, Butler comparable to Allen. VC in 01 is above all of them however.


What players now would you put in the ray allen tier -- i guess, borderline superstar/superstar?

[bizil]

Damn good question! All three of these guys were in the Golden Era of SG's. Pierce played a ton of SG early in his careers and his primary position was listed as an SG back then. Were they superstars in terms of being huge with casual fans AND being great players? Vince was while the other two weren't.

BUT if we are looking strictly at what they did on the court, I would say yes. Carter and Allen are arguably two of the top 10 GOAT SG's of all time. I think Ray is for sure while Vince has a case. Among SF's, I think Pierce is in the top 10 GOAT. If u have a GOOD ARGUMENT to be in the top 10 GOAT wise at your position, I think u can be seen as a superstar.

But there are different levels of superstars. They weren't on that Shaq-Kobe-Duncan-KG MVP level. Or consistent 1st team All NBA level. But I think Vince, Ray, and Pierce were talented enough to be considered superstars.

[NBAGOAT]

What players now would you put in the ray allen tier -- i guess, borderline superstar/superstar?

uh klay thompson is another one even if I lean Ray. Definitely not putting derozan or current Wade above him. Think Harden is still better however.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Am I wrong for taking Pierce over Carter if I am building a franchise? Carter will sell more tickets, but I thought Pierce was more consistently better over a longer period. Carter has longevity also, but Pierce was an elite player for longer in my eyes.

[JohnnySic]

Pierce and Carter no question.

I think Allen is too but that's a little more iffy. During Allen's peak he was on a bad/mediocre Sonics team and was basically an afterthought (yeah I know PP was too before '08 but Allen more so).

[NuggetsFan]

Were they superstars in terms of being huge with casual fans AND being great players? Vince was while the other two weren't.


I'd disagree. Carter obviously hit insane levels like would be inside the top 10 of the most popular players ever at his peak. Pierce/Allen weren't that but Pierce was pretty huge. Allen too because of he got game/shooting.

I'd actually argue casual fans/popularity made people think Pierce/Allen were better players than they actually were. I thought Pierce was amazing when I was younger. Like an elite superstar. He wasn't what someone like James Harden is today vs his peers back than. Until the big 3 hit the scene Pierce had a pretty unsuccessful career. Paul George this year is actually kinda similar to what Pierce did before the big 3 with a little less scoring but an All-NBA defensive team nod and finishing inside the top 10 of the MVP voting. Both All-NBA 3rd team.

Carter when he actually gave a shit and played with heart
Pierce
Allen

Pierce would obviously rank above Carter All-Time given how things played out tho.

[tpols]

peak carter is better, but career wise carter isnt that impressive because he was lazy in aspects outside scoring.. then i'd say ray, pierce, and paul george are all similar impact with butler at the bottom.

[Noyze]

While the definition of "Superstar" is always up for debate, NBA All First Team players are usually superstars. None of these guys were first team. PP and Vince i think came the closest

[bizil]

I'd disagree. Carter obviously hit insane levels like would be inside the top 10 of the most popular players ever at his peak. Pierce/Allen weren't that but Pierce was pretty huge. Allen too because of he got game/shooting.

I'd actually argue casual fans/popularity made people think Pierce/Allen were better players than they actually were. I thought Pierce was amazing when I was younger. Like an elite superstar. He wasn't what someone like James Harden is today vs his peers back than. Until the big 3 hit the scene Pierce had a pretty unsuccessful career. Paul George this year is actually kinda similar to what Pierce did before the big 3 with a little less scoring but an All-NBA defensive team nod and finishing inside the top 10 of the MVP voting. Both All-NBA 3rd team.

Carter when he actually gave a shit and played with heart
Pierce
Allen

Pierce would obviously rank above Carter All-Time given how things played out tho.

Pierce and Allen were NEVER CLOSE to Vince's combo of being a great player AND box office attraction. That was my point. U gotta realize that Vince had the US AND Canada on lock. He was a HUGE DEAL to both countries. NO SPORT markets its superstars like the NBA.

Stern MADE IT A POINT to market Vince as a poster child of the league. Allen and Pierce were never marketed as such. The debate between the three ON THE COURT was much closer than it ever was in terms of star power off it.


He Got Game didn't boost Ray's profile enough to have been a bigger deal than Vince to casual fans. He Got Game came out in 1998, BEFORE Ray was even considered a superstar player. And once again, Stern NEVER MARKETED Ray or Pierce to be a face of the league. So He Got Game didn't have much impact in that regard. EVEN THOUGH I greatly enjoyed the movie.

[Nilocon165]

In my mind, if they were a top 5 player in the league at a time, then yes.

[HighFlyer23]

VC was

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were borderline IMO ...

[Prime_Shaq]

I feel that prime Ray is extremely underrated on this board, but I don't think he was at that superstar level.

[NuggetsFan]

Pierce and Allen were NEVER CLOSE to Vince's combo of being a great player AND box office attraction. That was my point. U gotta realize that Vince had the US AND Canada on lock. He was a HUGE DEAL to both countries. NO SPORT markets its superstars like the NBA.

Stern MADE IT A POINT to market Vince as a poster child of the league. Allen and Pierce were never marketed as such. The debate between the three ON THE COURT was much closer than it ever was in terms of star power off it.


He Got Game didn't boost Ray's profile enough to have been a bigger deal than Vince to casual fans. He Got Game came out in 1998, BEFORE Ray was even considered a superstar player. And once again, Stern NEVER MARKETED Ray or Pierce to be a face of the league. So He Got Game didn't have much impact in that regard. EVEN THOUGH I greatly enjoyed the movie.

The very first thing I said was Pierce/Allen didn't touch VC in that area, why are you explaining it to me again? :oldlol: very few did. Pretty sure fans voted Carter over an old MJ into the All-Star game. Like I said Carter belongs in the top 10 list of most popular players of All-Time at his peak, Pierce and Allen don't.

What I disagreed with was you saying Piere/Allen weren't superstars to casual fans. Pierce was huge. Boston was a big basketball market and he was the franchise player. He had that crazy playoff run early on that gave him some attention, and he always hit the big buckets that played on sports center. He was seen as the guy to bring the Celtics back to glory, and I guess he kinda did in a way. Everyone knows the Celtics, there a top 5 franchise to the casual fan for sure.

He got game was a pretty big deal for Allen. It's rare for an NBA player to play in a movie, especially one note worthy. It opens them up to an entirely different audience. They become a trivia fact. People who don't follow basketball heard about it. On top of that he was an insane shooter. He deff helped increase the popularity of the 3 among fans.

Like I said not VC level but Pierce/Allen deff were thought of as superstars by casual fans. Not face of the league like Shaq/Iverson/Carter but in that next "superstar" tier.

[bizil]

The very first thing I said was Pierce/Allen didn't touch VC in that area, why are you explaining it to me again? :oldlol: very few did. Pretty sure fans voted Carter over an old MJ into the All-Star game. Like I said Carter belongs in the top 10 list of most popular players of All-Time at his peak, Pierce and Allen don't.

What I disagreed with was you saying Piere/Allen weren't superstars to casual fans. Pierce was huge. Boston was a big basketball market and he was the franchise player. He had that crazy playoff run early on that gave him some attention, and he always hit the big buckets that played on sports center. He was seen as the guy to bring the Celtics back to glory, and I guess he kinda did in a way. Everyone knows the Celtics, there a top 5 franchise to the casual fan for sure.

He got game was a pretty big deal for Allen. It's rare for an NBA player to play in a movie, especially one note worthy. It opens them up to an entirely different audience. They become a trivia fact. People who don't follow basketball heard about it. On top of that he was an insane shooter. He deff helped increase the popularity of the 3 among fans.

Like I said not VC level but Pierce/Allen deff were thought of as superstars by casual fans. Not face of the league like Shaq/Iverson/Carter but in that next "superstar" tier.

U are the one that doesn't get what I was saying!! Pierce and Allen NEVER had the balance of being a great player and box office force like Vince. A HUGE TOOL of getting casual fans attention is being a poster child of the league. When I mean casual fan, I'm talking about VERY VERY CASUAL fans whose perception is shaped MAINLY by who the league markets. They might not be into box scores, following shit on NBA.com, visiting hoop forums, etc. Their view of the game is LARGELY dictated by WHO THE LEAGUE MARKETS THE HARDEST!!! So by what I laid out, it makes sense that those kind of fans might not realize how good Ray and Pierce were.

For example, I don't watch hockey AT ALL!! BUT I know who Sid the Kid and Alex O. are. Why?? Because u hear their names ALL THE TIME and they are more front and center than many of the other great players. So it makes TOTAL SENSE that a very very casual fan would know Vince is a big deal BUT DON'T realize how great Ray and Pierce were. How would u know IF u don't follow the game closely enough?? Hardcore fans (students of the game) and knowledgable fans (not students of the game, but watch consistently enough) are one thing. Anything under that is A CRAPSHOOT in terms of what a casual fan on a WORLDWIDE level may know.

[Living Being]

Am I wrong for taking Pierce over Carter if I am building a franchise? Carter will sell more tickets, but I thought Pierce was more consistently better over a longer period. Carter has longevity also, but Pierce was an elite player for longer in my eyes.
I agree. I think everyone in this thread is severely underrating Pierce because of his low profile image. He probably had a good 8-year span of being as good as or sometimes better than Carter. I think he was a better lock-down defender, and defended SF's well.

[bizil]

I agree. I think everyone in this thread is severely underrating Pierce because of his low profile image. He probably had a good 8-year span of being as good as or sometimes better than Carter. I think he was a better lock-down defender, and defended SF's well.

I'm not underrating Pierce at all! On the court, I consider Vince and Pierce on the same level. But in terms of box office superstar status (a player Stern used to market the league), Vince had the easy edge on PP. But on the court, Pierce was every bit as good and arguably better. Certainly was the superior all around player. And in terms of GOAT status, Pierce AND Ray have the edge on Vince.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Always enjoyed seeing Ray throw one down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmpxeLUQ5M :cheers:

[Living Being]

I'm not underrating Pierce at all! On the court, I consider Vince and Pierce on the same level. But in terms of box office superstar status (a player Stern used to market the league), Vince had the easy edge on PP. But on the court, Pierce was every bit as good and arguably better. Certainly was the superior all around player. And in terms of GOAT status, Pierce AND Ray have the edge on Vince.
:cheers:

[bizil]

Always enjoyed seeing Ray throw one down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmpxeLUQ5M :cheers:

Young Ray had some hops for sure! Among all the great pure shooters-scorer types in NBA history, I think Ray and Durant were the most athletic. They would dunk on you in a manner guys like Bird, Steph, Nash, Price, Peja, Dirk, West, Rice, Miller, etc. never did. They could be great shooters AND dangerous slashers that would dunk on you.

[BlazerRed]

I don't think so. I consider superstars only guys like Lebron, Durant, Westbrook. Not many players are superstars... they are the only three in the league right now imo and all are better than those 3 were.

[G-train]

Excellent allstar players, but not superstars.
IMO Carter was the best by far in his peak.

Pierce reputation was elevated SIGNIFICANTLY once they got Garnett and Allen and won a title.

[julizaver]

Just wondering. How would we look at these players in their primes in the 2011-2016 era? Are they definitely better than Jimmy Butler/Paul George?

I think so, but want your takes.

Vince Carter is the closest to the image of the superstar. Vincanity for reason.

As a player as posters above mentioned he was never in the NBA first team, but in terms of popularity and all stars voting he was there for sure.

For me the superstar is a combination of talent, ability, image and media attraction combined. It is media term and I don't used it, as I am not interesting on what players represent off the court.

[Poetry]

Pierce was huge. Boston was a big basketball market and he was the franchise player.

He really wasn't known to casual basketball fans until the Big Three got together.

I remember there was a time when Antoine Walker was the more popular of the two. People used to like that shimmy :oldlol:

[Vman23]

U want the truth?

At 25 years old, Gilbert Arenas was better than all 3 of them at their absolute peaks. And it's weird...but every advance statistic you want to bring out will show it.

And media hype? Arenas in 2008 was becoming extremely hyped, voted as an All-Star starter over Vince Carter and being on the cover of NBA Live 2008 while being a top 5 MVP candidate and making All-NBA 2nd team over Dwayne Wade/Vince Carter.

Hibachi was bigger then all of em.

But among them, Vince Carter was a superstar as far as hype and media goes. Pierce was probably the better player at his peak, but he never had the media hype.