Lebron Age 31 v. Jordan Age 31

[TomCat]

Lebron has been to 7 finals. Jordan only 3

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron: 3 rings, 4 MVP's, 7 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 0 DPOY
Jordan: 3 rings, 3 MVP's, 3 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 1 DPOY

LeBron has a slight edge right now in terms of resume at age 31. Can he keep it up?

[kamil]

He's also got 4 more finals losses.

[ISHGoat]

He also took his team to the finals 4 more times

LeBeast

[K Xerxes]

LeBron: 3 rings, 4 MVP's, 7 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 0 DPOY
Jordan: 3 rings, 3 MVP's, 3 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 1 DPOY

LeBron has a slight edge right now in terms of resume at age 31. Can he keep it up?

Zero chance. He also started the NBA a lot earlier and has more mileage.

Jordan had 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 seasons. James has 3 rings and 4 mvps in 13 seasons.

Jordan >>> James

[Dray n Klay]

Zero chance. He also started the NBA a lot earlier and has more mileage.

Jordan had 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 seasons. James has 3 rings and 4 mvps in 13 seasons.

Jordan >>> James



Meltdown



Outside of 2-3 MJ stans on this board, no one REALLY believes MJ is better than LeBron

[Spurs m8]

Zero chance. He also started the NBA a lot earlier and has more mileage.

Jordan had 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 seasons. James has 3 rings and 4 mvps in 13 seasons.

Jordan >>> James

Ouch.....

[kamil]

Outside of 2-3 MJ stans on this board, no one REALLY believes MJ is better than LeBron

LMAO!!! You really are delusional. LeBron* wins his first truly earned championship and you act as if he's already taken over a SIX TIME champion.

:facepalm

[Spurs m8]

Meltdown



Outside of 2-3 MJ stans on this board, no one REALLY believes MJ is better than LeBron

LOL MELTDOWN

Most people who aren't a Bron stan actually realize its not even a competition hahah

[Dray n Klay]

LMAO!!! You really are delusional. LeBron* wins his first truly earned championship and you act as if he's already taken over a SIX TIME champion.

:facepalm


Hey baldie, aren't you a Knicks fan? How does it feel to have Rose on your team? :roll:

[kamil]

Hey baldie, aren't you a Knicks fan? How does it feel to have Rose on your team? :roll:

1) I aint bald (but your idol is!)
2) I'm not a Knicks fan
3) LeBron* still has a losing finals record
4) You're still delusional

[Nash]

He's also got 4 more finals losses.
zup kamil*

[riseagainst]

Their resumes are close. But Lebron has faced way better finals teams than MJ has.

[NumberSix]

He's also got 4 more finals losses.
Yeah, it'd be totally better if he replaced those with 1st round loses.

:rolleyes:

[Solefade]

Like Bill Simmons said, LeBron's first 13 years are better than anyone in the history of the NBA (yes including Jordan)

[Bless Mathews]

Meltdown



Outside of 2-3 MJ stans on this board, no one REALLY believes MJ is better than LeBron


Your a FUCCIN idiot "by age" fool.

Jordan played 3 years in college.

By age 22 kwame brown had 1,000 more points than Tim Duncan.

FUCCIN CLOWN

10 full seasons Jordan 6 for 6 6 finals MVP.

0 colludes.

FUCCIN small dicc fucc face moron.

[riseagainst]

Your a FUCCIN idiot "by age" fool.

Jordan played 3 years in college.

By age 22 kwame brown had 1,000 more points than Tim Duncan.

FUCCIN CLOWN

10 full seasons Jordan 6 for 6 6 finals MVP.

0 colludes.

FUCCIN small dicc fucc face moron.

meltdown

:roll:

[Quickening]

Lebron's better hardware at the same stage of their career... but MJ had a stacked cast who were able to carry him to 3 rings when he was well past his prime, will Lebron get the same luxury, I doubt it.

[K Xerxes]

Like Bill Simmons said, LeBron's first 13 years are better than anyone in the history of the NBA (yes including Jordan)

Jordan's first 13 years in the league (84/85 to 97/98):

6 rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs

:rolleyes:

[Bless Mathews]

Like Bill Simmons said, LeBron's first 13 years are better than anyone in the history of the NBA (yes including Jordan)


What????

:roll: :roll:

So 3 rings is better than 6?

10 scoring titles???

[Dray n Klay]

What????

:roll: :roll:

So 3 rings is better than 6?

10 scoring titles???

1-9?? :roll: :roll:

[LeFraud James]

Let LeBron catch up to Kobe before you delusional fools start comparing him to MJ

[Dray n Klay]

Let LeBron catch up to Kobe before you delusional fools start comparing him to MJ

He was already better than Kobe before you even created your account

[LeFraud James]

He was already better than Kobe before you even created your account

You didn't start watching basketball until after I created my account if you truly believe LeBron > Jordan.

Sit down

[kamil]

You didn't start watching basketball until after I created my account if you truly believe LeBron > Jordan.

Sit down
Millennials know **** all about basketball.

[DonDadda59]

These nigguhs never learn. :lol

I remember when Bean stans were convinced Bean>MJ because of X accomplishments at X age

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww180/yadigyadig09/2011-08-24203127.jpg

But I suppose the one advantage Bron has over Beans is his willingness to jump ship and run to a better situation whenever he sees it. This could theoretically keep him racking up rings until he's playing 3 minutes per game at age 50.

[guy]

Why is finals appearances an item on the resume now when no one ever cared about it before?

[~primetime~]

Would have never entertained Jordan vs Bron...till now

I'm probably one of the few on this board that is old enough to have witnessed MJ's entire career...I can remember watching him under Dean Smith in NC, and I have seen him play live multiple times. I have also watched Bron's career in it's entirety...and I am a Bron fan, I do not hate the guy.

My unbiased opinion is that Jordan was a slightly better player overall, I feel like Jordan was a better defender than Bron has ever been, Jordan was probably a top-3 defender in the NBA every Bull's year he played, it's not what he is known for and is probably the most underrated facet of his game.

Jordan I feel was also more 'clutch' in general...if there is a final shot to be taken and my choices are prime MJ or prime Bron...give me MJ by a long shot.

[Roundball_Rock]

Zero chance. He also started the NBA a lot earlier and has more mileage.

This is wishful thinking. LeBron is still going strong. What is there to suggest he is going to suddenly fall off? LeBron likely has 3-4 more MVP caliber seasons in him. His numbers this year were 25/7/7 on 52%; his numbers in 2015 were 25/6/7 on 49%. He has fallen off from his peak but remains dominant.

Too much is made out of mileage. It is a factor but these are people, not cars. Chronological age matters much more than mileage. Kobe was still an elite player in 2013 when he was 34 and it wasn't his odometer that took him from elite status but an injury.


Yeah, it'd be totally better if he replaced those with 1st round loses.

:oldlol: It is funny how the Finals losses are brought up. Jordan lost three times in the first round; LeBron never has. Jordan lost in the conference finals twice; LeBron once. Both lost in the second round twice. Both missed the playoffs twice. Jordan had 5 losing seasons, LeBron 1. At practically every other level LeBron fares better but MJ stans cling to one round and make a virtue of losing earlier.


MJ had a stacked cast who were able to carry him to 3 rings when he was well past his prime, will Lebron get the same luxury, I doubt it.

I think he has a good chance of it. The gap in age between LeBron and Irving is much more fortuitous than that between Jordan and Pippen. Irving will hit his peak years right when LeBron significantly starts to slow down. LeBron has probably only 3-4 more MVP-caliber years left but he also likely has 2-3 more top 10 level seasons after that in him. Those years will coincide with Irving's peak.

[funnystuff]

Yeah, it'd be totally better if he replaced those with 1st round loses.

:rolleyes:
:oldlol:

[Micku]

Like Bill Simmons said, LeBron's first 13 years are better than anyone in the history of the NBA (yes including Jordan)

First 13 years? MJ accomplish more if you are going by that route.

MJ in his 13 years resume:

5 MVPs
6 Final MVPs
6 titles
1 DPOY

Stats after 13 years:
31.5 ppg, 5.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 tovs, 50.5% FG, 33.2% 3pt shooting, 58% TS

Playoffs:

33.4 ppg, 5.7 apg, 6.4 rpg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.1 tovs, 48.7% FG, 33.2% 3pt, 56.8% TS

LeBron acocmplishments:
4 MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
3 titles

LeBron is right up there tho in stats tho:
27.2 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.2 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 tovs, 49.8% FG, 34.0% 3pt, 58.1%

Playoffs (MJ been in more playoffs, LeBron missed his rookie year)
28.0 ppg, 6.8 apg, 8.8 rpg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.5 tovs, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3pt, 56.7% TS


So, LeBron James still is half way there to catch up MJ's accomplishments at the same time span of being in the league, thus MJ had a more successful career. But in age? He's already there. I'm curious how his game would translate in his 30s and I wonder if he can keep an high level of play. It would be great to see.

MJ's career was done after 13 years tho. LeBron's career could go on for longer. So, it would be cool to see.

[Solefade]

Jordan's first 13 years in the league (84/85 to 97/98):

6 rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs

:rolleyes:


Jordan has the hardware but LeBron has just been way more productive, doing more with less, never getting eliminated in the first round, has NEVER been injured.

[Solefade]

First 13 years? MJ accomplish more if you are going by that route.

MJ in his 13 years resume:

5 MVPs
6 Final MVPs
6 titles
1 DPOY

Stats after 13 years:
31.5 ppg, 5.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 tovs, 50.5% FG, 33.2% 3pt shooting, 58% TS

Playoffs:

33.4 ppg, 5.7 apg, 6.4 rpg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.1 tovs, 48.7% FG, 33.2% 3pt, 56.8% TS

LeBron acocmplishments:
4 MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
3 titles

LeBron is right up there tho in stats tho:
27.2 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.2 rpg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 tovs, 49.8% FG, 34.0% 3pt, 58.1%

Playoffs (MJ been in more playoffs, LeBron missed his rookie year)
28.0 ppg, 6.8 apg, 8.8 rpg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.5 tovs, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3pt, 56.7% TS


So, LeBron James still is half way there to catch up MJ's accomplishments at the same time span of being in the league, thus MJ had a more successful career. But in age? He's already there. I'm curious how his game would translate in his 30s and I wonder if he can keep an high level of play. It would be great to see.

yep im not talking about the hardware, MJ is definitely GOAT in that regard but why can't we compare LBJ the same way we used to compare MJ to Bill Russell?

I can't imagine how it was like for MJ stans to argue with Bill Russell stans about who's better...


MJ Stans: MJ is better than Bill.
Bill Russll stans: "RINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"

[Dragonyeuw]

I think he has a good chance of it. The gap in age between LeBron and Irving is much more fortuitous than that between Jordan and Pippen. Irving will hit his peak years right when LeBron significantly starts to slow down. LeBron has probably only 3-4 more MVP-caliber years left but he also likely has 2-3 more top 10 level seasons after that in him. Those years will coincide with Irving's peak.

We may have gotten a glimpse of 'peak' Kyrie play in this finals. That said, it took that and Lebron playing his heart out the last 3 games to beat the Warriors. Much depends on the landscape of the league over the next 5 years. If Durant winds up on Golden State( and to be clear, I'd really hate for that to happen), you have to figure a team of Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green would be the favorites for the next 5 years( unless someone from that quartet leaves). The Cavs will likely be the east favorites to make the finals for the next few years barring some major trade/FA signing, the east has been weak for 15 years plus and its safe to assume it will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

[Micku]

yep im not talking about the hardware, MJ is definitely GOAT in that regard but why can't we compare LBJ the same way we used to compare MJ to Bill Russell?

I can't imagine how it was like for MJ stans to argue with Bill Russell stans about who's better?


MJ Stans: MJ is better than Bill.
Bill Russll stans: "RINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"

It ain't just rings tho. It's the combination of everything. The stats, the team success, the dominance as the individual player on both ends of the floor.

I think MJ was number 1 in ppg in both playoffs and regular season, top 2 in steals by time he retired in 1998 (top 3 currently). He's like top 3-5 in a bunch of categories, even in advance stats and plus/minus. Both in playoffs and regular season. LeBron is number 1 in plus/minus and MJ is number 2.

This is no knock on LeBron or anything, and I don't mean to be all over MJ, but MJ had great performances as individual, probably the GOAT scorer considering the volume. He even owns the record of the most ppg with 41 in the finals. While the Suns weren't the greatest defensive team, they did a have solid wing defensive player. MJ didn't score the "most" points in the finals all together tho. But it's him and Rick Barry that tied with 55 ppg.

And imo, the only performances that matched with his finals and playoffs stats that I've seen are Shaq and LeBron. Especially 2016 Lebron in the finals You still have Kareem and Wilt. But Wilt didn't have the team success and Kareem got the bulk of his rings in the 80s and wasn't as dominate like he was in the 70s.

But 1991-1993 MJ was insane. Hard to beat that.

With that, I'm eager to watch LeBron. What he pulled in both 2015 and 2016 was amazing. He should've been finals MVP in 2015.

[Micku]

We may have gotten a glimpse of 'peak' Kyrie play in this finals. That said, it took that and Lebron playing his heart out the last 3 games to beat the Warriors. Much depends on the landscape of the league over the next 5 years. If Durant winds up on Golden State( and to be clear, I'd really hate for that to happen), you have to figure a team of Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green would be the favorites for the next 5 years( unless someone from that quartet leaves). The Cavs will likely be the east favorites to make the finals for the next few years barring some major trade/FA signing, the east has been weak for 15 years plus and its safe to assume it will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

F@#k that man. That's worse than the Miami Heat. I wonder if they will receive the same hate tho? The hate on the Heat was fun. They might never lose a finals again.

And I agree with you that we may have seen a glimpse of peak Kyrie. He is only 24? So, historically speaking from what we seen of other players, he hasn't reached his peak yet. Most of the time, players peak around 27-29ish.

[K Xerxes]

This is wishful thinking. LeBron is still going strong. What is there to suggest he is going to suddenly fall off? LeBron likely has 3-4 more MVP caliber seasons in him. His numbers this year were 25/7/7 on 52%; his numbers in 2015 were 25/6/7 on 49%. He has fallen off from his peak but remains dominant.

Too much is made out of mileage. It is a factor but these are people, not cars. Chronological age matters much more than mileage. Kobe was still an elite player in 2013 when he was 34 and it wasn't his odometer that took him from elite status but an injury.

He is still going strong because he is an athletic god. Since what I consider to be his athletic peak (09), he has certainly declined athletically, but is still able to dominate the league with his brute strength and playmaking ability. But there are signs of fatigue and a loss of his first step etc.

The issue with comparing his career trajectory with Kobe and Jordan is that, although they were also very athletic in their primes, they are capable of making jumpshots reliably, either for midrange or from three. LeBron has yet to display a consistent jumpshot from anywhere. Unless he develops one he will not age as gracefully.

I'm not saying he is going to drop off dramatically. I still expect him to be MVP calliber seasons, but he just went 3/6 in his last 6 years on a contending team in the softer conference. This is not going to get better as he ages. Especially with the likes of Golden State, SA (with Kawhi), OKC (dependent on Westbrook and Durant) and other young teams emerging. It is simply unrealistic to expect him to win many more championships as the man.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think MJ was number 1 in ppg in both playoffs and regular season

His career averages are inflated by him not having a normal career. Players with a normal career see their career averages dip due to their final few years. Kareem and Wilt are prime examples of this.


It's the combination of everything. The stats, the team success, the dominance as the individual player on both ends of the floor.

That is subjective. Surely you can see how the above can be used to argue a number of players over Jordan. What people get annoyed about MJ stans and rings is they consistently will cite Jordan having more rings than other players he is being compared to as if it is dispositive. We have seen this frequently over the past week where, because LeBron has half the rings, MJ stans say LeBron is only "halfway" to Jordan's legacy. (Amusingly when it comes to Russell, who has nearly double the rings, suddenly rings are no longer the be all to MJ stans.)

The stats you cite often go back to what I said at the beginning of this post: averages. If you compare prime to prime Wilt>Jordan as does Kareem. Other players were dominant on both ends too, like Wilt and Kareem. Russell clearly had more team success but one could argue Kareem, Magic had as much or more team success than Jordan. LeBron may wind up with as much or more team success as well. Moreover, team success if heavily influenced by luck. Jordan had exquisite luck that his fans never mention. He managed to have no serious playoff injury to his team during his team's contending years. That is amazing. What other all-time great went that long without a serious playoff injury? Plus his championship period came shortly after the demise of the Celtics and Lakers dynasties and shortly before the rise of the Spurs and Lakers (Shaq/Kobe) dynasties. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons as contenders but only briefly, and the Pistons barely won 50 games by 91' when the Bulls finally beat them.

What irks many about MJ proponents is they may it seem as if MJ=GOAT is an objective fact when in reality it is subjective and as valid as saying KAJ or Wilt or Russell are GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bron will never win another MVP, though. Thats over. Not the energy/stamina of '96-'98 MJ.

[Lebron23]

Bron will never win another MVP, though. Thats over. Not the energy/stamina of '96-'98 MJ.


He can win his 5th MVP next season. He won't play in the Olympics. He has a 4-5 months rest.

[Micku]

His career averages are inflated by him not having a normal career. Players with a normal career see their career averages dip due to their final few years. Kareem and Wilt are prime examples of this.

Not really...I mean, it is somewhat inflated, since MJ pretty much only had 13 years and retired. Came back with the Wizard and his stats got hindered because of it. With that said tho, look at the other stars as well and their averages in their prime or first 13 years. Wilt only played 14 seasons. In those first 13 seasons, he averaged 31.5 ppg. MJ averaged 31.5 also in his first years also. And MJ played more seasons than Wilt and still have the most ppg average.

When Wilt was 35, he averaged 14.8 ppg on the best FG% of the league. When MJ was 34-35, he averaged 28.7 ppg as the leading scorer of the league.

Kareem is also the same way. In his first 13 years, he averaged 27.8 ppg. MJ averaged more. MJ with his full 15 seasons just averaged ppg than Kareem in his 15 season.

Granted, this doesn't mean that Wilt couldn't have scored more if he wanted to or Kareem. It just that it isn't as inflated. Even when MJ in his 30s, he was still leading the league in scoring as oppose to Kareem and Wilt.

An abnormal career would be Wilt retiring before a decade or Kareem. They would have crazy stats. But in your reference as a player get older, they would see their averages go down is entirely true. But MJ averaged more than both of them.


That is subjective. Surely you can see how the above can be used to argue a number of players over Jordan.

...
Moreover, team success if heavily influenced by luck. Jordan had exquisite luck that his fans never mention. He managed to have no serious playoff injury to his team during his team's contending years. That is amazing. What other all-time great went that long without a serious playoff injury? Plus his championship period came shortly after the demise of the Celtics and Lakers dynasties and shortly before the rise of the Spurs and Lakers (Shaq/Kobe) dynasties. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons as contenders but only briefly, and the Pistons barely won 50 games by 91' when the Bulls finally beat them.


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. This entire thing is subjective. I personally don't think there is an objective best b-ball player of all time. I'm simply arguing that MJ's accomplishments and his stats are like a dream NBA career. Not only did he had crazy stats, once he was on top, he never looked down. You can't say the same thing for Wilt, Kareem, or Russell I think.

Wilt had to changed how he played and not score as much to get other ppl involved. Russell was a defensive player, who score a bit, but wasn't the best scorer at his position. Kareem was great, but he didn't win that much in his prime. His longevity was great. And by time the mid 80s, he may not have been the best player on his team.

MJ won in his prime, and won by getting the scoring titles almost every season. Ppl thought you couldn't do that with the exception of Kareem. Everyone considered MJ the best player. Dominated on both ends of the floor. What other player dominated the game like that as the best offensive player and one of the best defensive players in their era?

And in terms of teams, you could argue that the Lakers, the Celts, and Pistons were lucky that they didn't face the Bulls in their prime as well. They clearly couldn't stop MJ, but it's a team game. I also don't think MJ faced quality teams like he did in the 80s. A lot of them were stacked with HOFs. But there are a couple of flaws with that. Those teams also never faced each other in their prime. The Lakers didn't face the quality teams like the Celtics did either on their way to the finals.

The teams in the 90s that I thought were super talented were the Suns 93, 95-96 Magic, and the late 90s Lakers. But they got beat.

[Dragonyeuw]

F@#k that man. That's worse than the Miami Heat. I wonder if they will receive the same hate tho? The hate on the Heat was fun. They might never lose a finals again.

And I agree with you that we may have seen a glimpse of peak Kyrie. He is only 24? So, historically speaking from what we seen of other players, he hasn't reached his peak yet. Most of the time, players peak around 27-29ish.

Yes, but he's also 5 years into the league. And I think this finals experience is going to do alot for him in terms of taking that next step to super-stardom. I think you could start seeing 'peak' play in the next season or two, health-permitting.

[Roundball_Rock]

mean, it is somewhat inflated, since MJ pretty much only had 13 years and retired. Came back with the Wizard and his stats got hindered because of it. With that said tho, look at the other stars as well and their averages in their prime or first 13 years.

By abnormal I meant he didn't play as long as he could have. He didn't have to retire early due to injuries like others did or disease like Magic. He just didn't feel like playing twice. He retired at his peak and then retired again as the reigning MVP. Has any reigning MVP ever retired in any sport? If he played continuously and compiled 17-18 seasons his numbers would be lower.


When Wilt was 35, he averaged 14.8 ppg on the best FG% of the league. When MJ was 34-35, he averaged 28.7 ppg as the leading scorer of the league.

Exactly. How about comparing their prime versus prime numbers? Wilt and KAJ have a clear edge on MJ then, especially outside of scoring.

The other thing about age is MJ fans like to point to longevity based on age but ignore his retirements. What would KAJ have averaged at 34 or 35 if he took two years off? (Yes, MJ played another sport but it was in the minors and a sport that is not nearly as taxing as basketball.)


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. This entire thing is subjective. I personally don't think there is an objective best b-ball player of all time. I'm simply arguing that MJ's accomplishments and his stats are like a dream NBA career. Not only did he had crazy stats, once he was on top, he never looked down. You can't say the same thing for Wilt, Kareem, or Russell I think.

Those are fair points, although I would note Jordan did in fact lose in between the two threepeats. That said, 6 rings in 7 seasons is excellent and probably will not be equaled in the future. However, the caveat is there was no rival team on par with the Bulls during that window. Russell and Wilt had to face each other's teams, KAJ and Magic had to face the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. Bird had the Lakers, Sixers and Pistons.

MJ had exquisite timing. The Bulls' championship years came after the demise of the Celtics as an elite team. The Bulls overlapped with the Pistons somewhat but really they were only comparable in 1990. By 91' the Bulls were clearly better and the Pistons had diminished. Similarly, the Bulls did face the Lakers but had the fortune of Worthy going down. The Bulls completely missed the Spurs and Shaq-Kobe dynasties. All of this was narrowly. If MJ was born 2-3 years earlier or later would he have won 6 rings in 7 years? I don't think so. He would still win a lot but it would be harder to win against these great teams than it was to defeat the Sonics or Blazers.


Kareem was great, but he didn't win that much in his prime.

He had key injuries during several playoff runs in his prime. Jordan miraculously went the entire period the Bulls were contenders without that.


And in terms of teams, you could argue that the Lakers, the Celts, and Pistons were lucky that they didn't face the Bulls in their prime as well.

I agree.


The teams in the 90s that I thought were super talented were the Suns 93, 95-96 Magic, and the late 90s Lakers. But they got beat

I agree. I would add the Sonics and Jazz to that list.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jordan has the hardware but LeBron has just been way more productive, doing more with less, never getting eliminated in the first round, has NEVER been injured.
And LeBron hasn't gotten his dad killed.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I find the Age vs. seasons played argument interesting.

You can't discount the fact that Jordan took two years off, and you can't use that as a slight to LeBron.

If you go purely by age, it seems LeBron clearly has the better resume. Same amount of rings, 1 more MVP, same FMVPs, Saying "He has 4 finals losses though" is irrelevant because Jordan was getting bounced earlier in the playoffs than LeBron was. Getting the Cavs to the finals in 07 was impressive.

Obviously by seasons played, Jordan gets the nod, but Jordan didn't skip college and go straight to the NBA, which shouldn't be a slight against LeBron either.

Age WOULD be a more accurate indicator, but I get the sense that LeBron has more mileage on him, and obviously won't have the baseball break to rest up a bit. I don't think there's any real doubt though that if LeBron has a very succesful next few years and gets 2-3 chips, he's 1b

[Bankaii]

Let's say Lebron wins 3 more rings, 3 more FMVPs, and 1 more MVP, tying MJ in all major accolades.

I don't see how I could not at least call them 1a/1b for GOAT.
I know some will use losing 4 Finals and 2011 against him, but I don't think that's enough to keep him from GOAT status.

It most likely won't happen, but it isn't completely unrealistic.

[Asukal]

Let's say Lebron wins 3 more rings, 3 more FMVPs, and 1 more MVP, tying MJ in all major accolades.

I don't see how I could not at least call them 1a/1b for GOAT.
I know some will use losing 4 Finals and 2011 against him, but I don't think that's enough to keep him from GOAT status.

It most likely won't happen, but it isn't completely unrealistic.

Took him seven trips to the finals to win 3 while playing with other superstars in a weak eastern conference. 2 of his rings came off a bail out shot by kyrie and ray, he never gets things done in the clutch and he is getting older too. So no, it will not happen. :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

Took him seven trips to the finals to win 3 while playing with other superstars in a weak eastern conference. 2 of his rings came off a bail out shot by kyrie and ray, he never gets things done in the clutch and he is getting older too. So no, it will not happen. :oldlol:


What if LeBron wins 7 NBA titles? 7/11. Where are you going to rank him??

[Hey Yo]

Zero chance. He also started the NBA a lot earlier and has more mileage.

Jordan had 6 rings and 5 mvps in 15 seasons. James has 3 rings and 4 mvps in 13 seasons.

Jordan >>> James
LeBron's been the guy in 5 straight Finals and been to 6 straight overall.....w/o needing to take 2yrs off to rest mentally.

BIG difference.

[Hey Yo]

Took him seven trips to the finals to win 3 while playing with other superstars in a weak eastern conference. 2 of his rings came off a bail out shot by kyrie and ray, he never gets things done in the clutch and he is getting older too. So no, it will not happen. :oldlol:
What teammates played like/were considered superstars directly after the 07,11,12,13,14,15 and 16 Finals?

[kamil]

What teammates played like/were considered superstars directly after the 07,11,12,13,14,15 and 16 Finals?

Is this a rhetorical question?

[oarabbus]

What if LeBron wins 7 NBA titles? 7/11. Where are you going to rank him??

If LeBron gets to 7 rings, any arguments for Jordan being better are laughable.

Even at 6 rings, he will be flatly better, since he'll have the legacy to support him (like carrying a team with Mo Williams as the #2 to the finals... that is basically a non-playoff team with Jordan. 1st round at best, from which we've already seen Jordan get eliminated multiple times)

He has a LOOOOOONG ways to 6 rings, though. So this is all speculation now.

[oh the horror]

Let's say Lebron wins 3 more rings, 3 more FMVPs, and 1 more MVP, tying MJ in all major accolades.

I don't see how I could not at least call them 1a/1b for GOAT.
I know some will use losing 4 Finals and 2011 against him, but I don't think that's enough to keep him from GOAT status.

It most likely won't happen, but it isn't completely unrealistic.



I don't see how you suddenly just erase the fact that he's had multiple trips of losing where one he completely wet the bed and has jumped twice to teams where they've had to stack the deck and compare that to a guy that when competing in the finals never lost in all 6 attempts


Context does matter when making that discussion. There's a reason people regard Mike as the GOAT along with his performances and moments he never lost when in the finals dude.

[Prime_Shaq]

If LeBron gets to 7 rings, any arguments for Jordan being better are laughable.

Even at 6 rings, he will be flatly better, since he'll have the legacy to support him (like carrying a team with Mo Williams as the #2 to the finals... that is basically a non-playoff team with Jordan. 1st round at best, from which we've already seen Jordan get eliminated multiple times)
He didn't do that though

[NBAGOAT]

I don't see how you suddenly just erase the fact that he's had multiple trips of losing where one he completely wet the bed and has jumped twice to teams where they've had to stack the deck and compare that to a guy that when competing in the finals never lost in all 6 attempts


Context does matter when making that discussion. There's a reason people regard Mike as the GOAT along with his performances and moments he never lost when in the finals dude.

I still give Lebron consideration if that happened. MJ most likely will always be a better playoff performer but under that hypothetical, Lebron could add on 4-5 more great playoffs. MJ's playoff resume would be more perfect but Lebron's longevity could mean he has more great series on his resume which should be considered even though he has more bad moments. Then again, I think Kareem has a decent case for GOAT so my criteria is different than a lot of people. He's likely better than Lebron still in the playoffs but still has more bad playoff moments than MJ.

[Bankaii]

I don't see how you suddenly just erase the fact that he's had multiple trips of losing where one he completely wet the bed and has jumped twice to teams where they've had to stack the deck and compare that to a guy that when competing in the finals never lost in all 6 attempts


Context does matter when making that discussion. There's a reason people regard Mike as the GOAT along with his performances and moments he never lost when in the finals dude.
What up with people thinking losing in the Finals is worse than not making it?
You seriously think 6/6 > 6/10?
That seriously is just stupid and completely illogical.

The rest of your post is agenda-filled, hating bullshit. It's not worth addressing.

[Black Magic]

What up with people thinking losing in the Finals is worse than not making it?
You seriously think 6/6 > 6/10?
That seriously is just stupid and completely illogical.

The rest of your post is agenda-filled, hating bullshit. It's not worth addressing.

it depends. in LeBron's case 6/6 is better than 6/10 because lets face it, getting to the finals in the east hasn't been that difficult. Its still impressive, but your telling me if you replace LeBron with Jordan he doesn't get to the finals as much? I mean this year they faced toronto (lol), last year atlanta, the years prior an overrated pacers squad and a bulls team with 2 offensive players. And a very old Boston squad that took them to 7. Context matters

[kamil]

it depends. in LeBron's case 6/6 is better than 6/10 because lets face it, getting to the finals in the east hasn't been that difficult. Its still impressive, but your telling me if you replace Jordan with bron he doesn't get to the finals as much? I mean this year they faced toronto (lol), last year atlanta, the years prior an overrated pacers squad and a bulls team with 2 offensive players. Context matters

LeBron* fans dont care about any of that. They dont have any integrity.

[LBJMVP]

hate LeBron as much as you want, but....

lets be clear, Jordan is obviously above LeBron right now and that will not change unless we see a couple more finals mvps.

6 championships and 6 finals mvps is hard to beat (including 5 MVPS)

I think its almost impossible to beat Jordan, but LeBron has a very good shot at being the 2nd best player ever.

[kamil]

hate LeBron as much as you want, but....

lets be clear, Jordan is obviously above LeBron right now and that will not change unless we see a couple more finals mvps.

6 championships and 6 finals mvps is hard to beat (including 5 MVPS)

I think its almost impossible to beat Jordan, but LeBron has a very good shot at being the 2nd best player ever.

It's definitely possible, but that ship sailed for LeBron* 5 years ago.

[Bankaii]

it depends. in LeBron's case 6/6 is better than 6/10 because lets face it, getting to the finals in the east hasn't been that difficult. Its still impressive, but your telling me if you replace LeBron with Jordan he doesn't get to the finals as much? I mean this year they faced toronto (lol), last year atlanta, the years prior an overrated pacers squad and a bulls team with 2 offensive players. And a very old Boston squad that took them to 7. Context matters
163 posts in 7 years, youre definitely not an alt:oldlol:

Your argument doesn't even make since. In no way is not making the Finals better than making the Finals. Period.

Jordan had a run where he faced 39, 44, and 50 win teams in the East. Quick pretending like his completion was a death run.
This isn't even including that Lebron's Finals opponents have been clearly superior to Jordans.

You know your post is bad when that baldie Kamil supports it.

[scandisk_]

hate LeBron as much as you want, but....

lets be clear, Jordan is obviously above LeBron right now and that will not change unless we see a couple more finals mvps.

6 championships and 6 finals mvps is hard to beat (including 5 MVPS)

I think its almost impossible to beat Jordan, but LeBron has a very good shot at being the 2nd best player ever.

yep 2nd greatest is his ceiling, the GOAT status will always be debatable.

[LBJMVP]

Let's say Lebron wins 3 more rings, 3 more FMVPs, and 1 more MVP, tying MJ in all major accolades.

I don't see how I could not at least call them 1a/1b for GOAT.
I know some will use losing 4 Finals and 2011 against him, but I don't think that's enough to keep him from GOAT status.

It most likely won't happen, but it isn't completely unrealistic.

It would be amazing if he could grab 3 more rings and 3 more FMVPs, but I don't know if he will.

if he does then that mean he will most likely go to the finals every year from 2011-2019.... that definitely puts him in 1A-1B


that is an insane accolade.

[Black Magic]

163 posts in 7 years, youre definitely not an alt:oldlol:

Your argument doesn't even make since. In no way is not making the Finals better than making the Finals. Period.

Jordan had a run where he faced 39, 44, and 50 win teams in the East. Quick pretending like his completion was a death run.
This isn't even including that Lebron's Finals opponents have been clearly superior to Jordans.

You know your post is bad when that baldie Kamil supports it.

i'm usually never signed in, just use this forum for info/news or interesting topics. What i'm saying makes sense. Of course making the finals is better than losing in the 1st round. but you totally leave out the competition level. The east was pretty tough in the 90's. Jordan beat more 50+ win teams than Lebron has so idk why you bringing up the 39, 44 and 50 win teams. LeBron played the hawks last year in the ECF and they swept them I believe. Toronto this year. seriously Derozen and Lowry were in the ECF... thats why he has so many loses. because he beats these weak east teams then plays tough west teams. I do agree however the teams he has beaten are probably better than any of Jordan's teams in the finals. but some of the losses prove how weak the east is and his road to the finals was a lot easier

[Asukal]

What teammates played like/were considered superstars directly after the 07,11,12,13,14,15 and 16 Finals?

Are you seriously going to deny the fact that bran stacked the deck against weak east competition? :facepalm :oldlol:

[Keno]

when it's all said and done, lebron is going to have the better career and be ranked #1 all time and labelled as the goat. nothing Jordan stans can do about it. just have to play the waiting game and accept fate.

[Asukal]

What up with people thinking losing in the Finals is worse than not making it?
You seriously think 6/6 > 6/10?
That seriously is just stupid and completely illogical.

The rest of your post is agenda-filled, hating bullshit. It's not worth addressing.

It is when you don't apply context. :oldlol:

Praise bran all you want for making the finals every year, it is a great accomplishment but you cannot deny the fact that the east he plays in has inferior teams. :rolleyes:

Criticize Jordan for "1-9" but consider the help he had and take a close look at the teams he faced in the first round. You can also check the stats he put up against those teams. :rolleyes:

Now tell me again how making the finals on easy mode is the stuff of legends? :hammerhead:

[talkingconch]

He also team hopped 2x.

lmao at delusional idiots on this forum.

[Bankaii]

i'm usually never signed in, just use this forum for info/news or interesting topics. What i'm saying makes sense. Of course making the finals is better than losing in the 1st round. but you totally leave out the competition level. The east was pretty tough in the 90's. Jordan beat more 50+ win teams than Lebron has so idk why you bringing up the 39, 44 and 50 win teams. LeBron played the hawks last year in the ECF and they swept them I believe. Toronto this year. seriously Derozen and Lowry were in the ECF... thats why he has so many loses. because he beats these weak east teams then plays tough west teams. I do agree however the teams he has beaten are probably better than any of Jordan's teams in the finals. but some of the losses prove how weak the east is and his road to the finals was a lot easier

It is when you don't apply context. :oldlol:

Praise bran all you want for making the finals every year, it is a great accomplishment but you cannot deny the fact that the east he plays in has inferior teams. :rolleyes:

Criticize Jordan for "1-9" but consider the help he had and take a close look at the teams he faced in the first round. You can also check the stats he put up against those teams. :rolleyes:

Now tell me again how making the finals on easy mode is the stuff of legends? :hammerhead:
Either you're both confused or have really bad reading comprehension.

The East has NOTHING to do with this argument.
My statement was that Lebron going 6/10 shouldn't be frowned upon or looked at as worse than 6/6 because making it to the Finals and losing is no worse than not making the Finals at all.

In both cases, 6 rings were won. The number of times in the Finals is irrelevant.

And to Askual, MJ had to face one seeds because he had a horrible RS record. Maybe if he had more impact on the game, he could've avoiding being 1-9.

Jordan's competition in '91 is worse than anything Lebron has faced.

[sekachu]

LeBron: 3 rings, 4 MVP's, 7 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 0 DPOY
Jordan: 3 rings, 3 MVP's, 3 Finals, 3 FMVP's, 1 DPOY

LeBron has a slight edge right now in terms of resume at age 31. Can he keep it up?


At the age 31, MJ 3 peats :bowdown:

[Hey Yo]

Are you seriously going to deny the fact that bran stacked the deck against weak east competition? :facepalm :oldlol:
Just answer the question.

Who were considered superstars?

[Asukal]

Just answer the question.

Who were considered superstars?

You already know the answer but have lecuck's tiny d1ck in your arse so just enjoy 3/7. :banana:

[LeBird]

it depends. in LeBron's case 6/6 is better than 6/10 because lets face it, getting to the finals in the east hasn't been that difficult. Its still impressive, but your telling me if you replace LeBron with Jordan he doesn't get to the finals as much? I mean this year they faced toronto (lol), last year atlanta, the years prior an overrated pacers squad and a bulls team with 2 offensive players. And a very old Boston squad that took them to 7. Context matters


If context matters, then Jordan's achievements are worth less. One of the weakest eras ever, with some of the weakest competition for titles in the last 30 years.

Jordan couldn't dream of Lebron's achievements by taking weak teams far. We know this because he was a failure when he had them.

[Hey Yo]

You already know the answer but have lecuck's tiny d1ck in your arse so just enjoy 3/7. :banana:
LOL @ you calling Joel Anthony and Mike Miller superstars

just admit you're dumb, take the L and move on

[yeaaaman]

when it's all said and done, lebron is going to have the better career and be ranked #1 all time and labelled as the goat. nothing Jordan stans can do about it. just have to play the waiting game and accept fate.

Are you actually certain of that? I can't keep up with this forum enough to know who has agendas these days or not..not calling you out just asking.

To 3peat twice in your career, that alone is an astonishing feat outside of the many others Jordan clearly has.

I wonder how many years people think Lebron has left in the league, and what people actually expect him to accomplish in those years?

[Asukal]

LOL @ you calling Joel Anthony and Mike Miller superstars

just admit you're dumb, take the L and move on

:whatever:

[sekachu]

If context matters, then Jordan's achievements are worth less. One of the weakest eras ever, with some of the weakest competition for titles in the last 30 years.

Jordan couldn't dream of Lebron's achievements by taking weak teams far. We know this because he was a failure when he had them.



Don't you feel laughable as you make this statement when lebron colluded with other stars in the most pathetic east especially this year.

[CarlosBoozer]

Don't you feel laughable as you make this statement when lebron colluded with other stars in the most pathetic east especially this year.
So what if the east is weak, Lebron still goes up against the best of the west

[LeBird]

Don't you feel laughable as you make this statement when lebron colluded with other stars in the most pathetic east especially this year.

Nah, I'd feel laughable if I assumed that whether the front office gets together or players do that it makes a difference how a team is composed. As said before, you can't talk about conference when Jordan was winning in the weakest era, and that counts both conferences.

Bottom line: Jordan had far better teams than his adversaries. When he didn't he was an utter failure.

Lebron was carrying the kind of teams Jordan couldn't make the playoffs with to finals.

The next few years are gonna be hard for your Jordan jockers. :lol

[Dragonyeuw]

I find the Age vs. seasons played argument interesting.

You can't discount the fact that Jordan took two years off, and you can't use that as a slight to LeBron.

If you go purely by age, it seems LeBron clearly has the better resume. Same amount of rings, 1 more MVP, same FMVPs, Saying "He has 4 finals losses though" is irrelevant because Jordan was getting bounced earlier in the playoffs than LeBron was. Getting the Cavs to the finals in 07 was impressive.

Obviously by seasons played, Jordan gets the nod, but Jordan didn't skip college and go straight to the NBA, which shouldn't be a slight against LeBron either.



This is any interesting argument as well. There's no shame getting bounced in the east as a lower seed to the Bucks and Celtics, or the Pistons who either made the finals or won the whole thing. Those are teams he should have lost to. MJ also never lost when he had HCA, something that Lebron did in 2011 in rather spectacular fashion. Lebron has only beaten 7 50 win teams enroute to the finals, speaking to the relative weakness of the east. Does anyone remember those Wizard and Bulls teams he beat? Of course not, they were a model of mediocrity. But then, MJ's mid 80's teams made the playoffs with sub .500 records. All that really says is that there was a wide chasm between the top east teams( Boston, Philly, Bucks, Hawks) and the lesser ones. The top 4 east teams in 85 were all over 50 wins I think. The tit for tat thing is endless if we wish to nitpick.

Ultimately, it's about the final body of work when it's all said and done. Lebron has the same amount of titles as MJ at the same age, so did Kobe( who obviously had a different career path starting with Shaq) and Duncan. What separates Jordan is what he did in his post-prime seasons. 3 titles, 2 MVPs, 3 FVPS, 3 scoring titles between 33 and 35 were huge legacy boosters. The main difference was Lebron having the most MVPs, but look at relative competition. Jordan had Bird and Magic in mid 80s, then Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Nique etc etc in the late 80's to early 90s. Duncan had Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, Dirk, Iverson, AND Lebron as MVP competition throughout the 2000's. By the time Lebron starting winning MVPs, Shaq was basically done, Duncan and Garnett were glorified role player, Kobe and Dirk were at the end of their primes, up to around 2011 when his main competition was Rose and Howard both of whom are no longer MVP level. Durant won in 2014 when Westbrook was injured, but alot of his MVP votes since are lost to his own teammate( and vice versa). One could make the argument that prime Lebron hasn't had the same level of MVP competitors, but the fairest thing to say is you can only play who is in front of you. That goes for both MJ and Lebron, but that's also why you can't measure achievements without context.

[nineiron]

Jordan actually WON his rings.

Ray Allen won 1 for Lebron.

GSW choked this year's ring - Cavs did not WIN it.

up 3-1 and that game 7? that was the biggest choke job in nba history. yet everyone wants to give Lebron credit for 'winning'.

he got lucky that the GSW CHOKED. just like how he got lucky when Ray Allen hit that shot.

and if you're going to credit anyone for Cavs' win this year - it should be Kyrie, not Lebron.

[riseagainst]

Lebron has beaten better teams as the underdog in the finals.

MJ was the favorites to win all his finals. He flat out just had the superior team.

[sekachu]

So what if the east is weak, Lebron still goes up against the best of the west




Are you gonna ignore the fact that lebron has gained advantage to advance final in the pathetic east unlike warriors.

[Lebron23]

Are you gonna ignore the fact that lebron has gained advantage to advance final in the pathetic east unlike warriors.


Are you the same idiot who said that the Warriors would beat the Cavaliers? LeBron has proven you wrong over, and over again.

[dankok8]

Lebron in the Last 5 NBA Finals from 2012-2016:

29.5 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 7.4 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg on 46.4 %FG/54.6 %TS with 3.6 topg in 42.3 mpg


Those are GOAT-level numbers!

[bond10]

Millennials love being hipsters/outliers. The vast majority of the world acknowledges MJ as the GOAT. 6 straight championships > colluding and weakening the conference. Both players were dominating but one thing is for damn sure, I hated Jordan and everytime the game was down to the final minutes and he got the ball I knew we lost. With Lebron, I still get nervous that he's gonna screw it up.


Also the argument of him going to the finals each year....well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGDXF9EWoAAsDpG.jpg

This is from last year, so you can add two (Raptors, gsw) to bump Lebron to 9.

[dankok8]

Millennials love being hipsters/outliers. The vast majority of the world acknowledges MJ as the GOAT. 6 straight championships > colluding and weakening the conference. Both players were dominating but one thing is for damn sure, I hated Jordan and everytime the game was down to the final minutes and he got the ball I knew we lost. With Lebron, I still get nervous that he's gonna screw it up.


Also the argument of him going to the finals each year....well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGDXF9EWoAAsDpG.jpg

This is from last year, so you can add two (Raptors, gsw) to bump Lebron to 9.

How many 60+ win teams did all those players beat? Lebron beat the 2011 Bulls, 2015 Hawks, and now the 2016 Warriors which are a 70+ win team and he's the only one to do so. Of course he won all those series as the underdog.

You can also flip the argument of "number of 50 or 60 win teams beat" on its head by pointing out that Lebron only played on three 60+ win teams in his career and only made the finals once with a 60+ win team. Lebron had homecourt advantage in just 2 out of his 7 finals and Jordan in 4 out of his 6 and an equal record in one more. That's a world of difference and based on it one would expect Lebron to win 2 Finals and Jordan to win 4.5... On a series by series basis Lebron was a heavy underdog four times... in 2007, 2014, 2015, and 2016. HEAVY UNDERDOG. Something Jordan never was in the finals.

[Lebron23]

Lebron in the Last 5 NBA Finals from 2012-2016:

29.5 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 7.4 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg on 46.4 %FG/54.6 %TS with 3.6 topg in 42.3 mpg


Those are GOAT-level numbers!


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[riseagainst]

Lebron is the only player to lead his team to beating a 70+ win team.

:bowdown:

[Black Magic]

Lebron was carrying the kind of teams Jordan couldn't make the playoffs with to finals.

The next few years are gonna be hard for your Jordan jockers. :lol

Jordan always made playoffs as a Bull so clearly you don't know what you're talking about. and if you are talking about his two wizards seasons at 40 years old :roll:

[Black Magic]

:wtf:
How many 60+ win teams did all those players beat? Lebron beat the 2011 Bulls, 2015 Hawks, and now the 2016 Warriors which are a 70+ win team and he's the only one to do so. Of course he won all those series as the underdog.


he won against atlanta and chicago as the underdog? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If context matters, then Jordan's achievements are worth less. One of the weakest eras ever, with some of the weakest competition for titles in the last 30 years.

Jordan couldn't dream of Lebron's achievements by taking weak teams far. We know this because he was a failure when he had them.

The difference is Jordan's Bulls, who were crap in the 80s, faced FAR better teams in the playoffs. The Celtics twice, Pistons... Both squads either made the finals or won a championship.

When Bron made his first finals, the East was ridiculously weak. Hence dude playing terrible when going H2H versus a REAL team in the Spurs.

[kamil]

Millennials love being hipsters/outliers. The vast majority of the world acknowledges MJ as the GOAT. 6 straight championships > colluding and weakening the conference. Both players were dominating but one thing is for damn sure, I hated Jordan and everytime the game was down to the final minutes and he got the ball I knew we lost. With Lebron, I still get nervous that he's gonna screw it up.


Also the argument of him going to the finals each year....well:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGDXF9EWoAAsDpG.jpg

This is from last year, so you can add two (Raptors, gsw) to bump Lebron to 9.

7 or 9, still pathetic. Dude's had an effing cakewalk but everyone seems to celebrate mediocrity.

[dankok8]

:wtf:

he won against atlanta and chicago as the underdog? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm using homecourt so it's obviously a crude analysis. That being said...

Those teams won more games in the regular season and Chicago was favored by experts as well. Atlanta at the very least was expected to push the series to 6 or 7 games. Nobody saw a sweep coming.

My point is looking at 50+ win teams beat on its own is misleading. There is a huge disparity between a 50-win and a 73-win team and one must also take into account the quality of team that a player in question is leading. Jordan led far better teams than Lebron.

[Mr Feeny]

Lebron in the Last 5 NBA Finals from 2012-2016:

29.5 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 7.4 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg on 46.4 %FG/54.6 %TS with 3.6 topg in 42.3 mpg


Those are GOAT-level numbers!

Goodness me those are outrageous.

[nineiron]

why are ppl acting like Lebron won the finals?

HE GOT BAILED OUT

bailed out by Kyrie
bailed out by GSW CHOKING with a 3-1 lead

previously bailed out by Wade and Allen

he really only has 1 legitimate ring.

he has great athleticism, yes - much like Westbrook. but he's not that great at basketball.

if Harrison Barnes shoots like 10-15% better than he did - with all his WIDE OPEN looks, Cavs lose again.

[Black Magic]

I'm using homecourt so it's obviously a crude analysis. That being said...

Those teams won more games in the regular season and Chicago was favored by experts as well. Atlanta at the very least was expected to push the series to 6 or 7 games. Nobody saw a sweep coming.

My point is looking at 50+ win teams beat on its own is misleading. There is a huge disparity between a 50-win and a 73-win team and one must also take into account the quality of team that a player in question is leading. Jordan led far better teams than Lebron.

i'm a bulls fan, and I remember 2011 season clearly. We were not favorites against Wade, Bron & Bosh in their prime

[kamil]

i'm a bulls fan, and I remember 2011 season clearly. We were not favorites against Wade, Bron & Bosh in their prime

This. Everyone had the Heat picked to win that and the championship because they STACKED THE DECK. Only reason why the Heat didnt have the better regular season record is because they got off to a terrible start.

[Dragonyeuw]

There is a huge disparity between a 50-win and a 73-win team

The version of the Warriors we got in the playoffs, at the very least the finals, wouldn't have won 73 games. OKC exposed their vulnerabilities, and Cleveland took it home, and neither of those teams won 60 games. Which is why the championship is won in the playoffs and not handed out to the team with the best record.

[Relinquish]

Jordan actually WON his rings.

Ray Allen won 1 for Lebron.

GSW choked this year's ring - Cavs did not WIN it.

up 3-1 and that game 7? that was the biggest choke job in nba history. yet everyone wants to give Lebron credit for 'winning'.

he got lucky that the GSW CHOKED. just like how he got lucky when Ray Allen hit that shot.

and if you're going to credit anyone for Cavs' win this year - it should be Kyrie, not Lebron.

You're not fooling anyone Jabbar/Warriorfan :lol

[Relinquish]

if Harrison Barnes shoots like 10-15% better than he did - with all his WIDE OPEN looks, Cavs lose again.

Yeah, and if Lebron didn't simultaneously average almost a 30 pt triple double throughout the series, the Cavs also lose. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

.
Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

[Tmuston Beltics]

Your a FUCCIN idiot "by age" fool.

Jordan played 3 years in college.

By age 22 kwame brown had 1,000 more points than Tim Duncan.

FUCCIN CLOWN

10 full seasons Jordan 6 for 6 6 finals MVP.

0 colludes.

FUCCIN small dicc fucc face moron.

Wow you truly take this forum way too seriously brother...

[Mr Feeny]

.
Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

Those Jordan stats are insane :oldlol:

[FLDFSU]

:wtf:

he won against atlanta and chicago as the underdog? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Without Irving and Love...yes he was. Even with Love and Irving he would have been underdog to Atlanta.

[FLDFSU]

i'm a bulls fan, and I remember 2011 season clearly. We were not favorites against Wade, Bron & Bosh in their prime

This is such BS. That Heat team wasn't even expected to beat the Celtics a round earlier. :roll: at the revisionist history. That Heat team was not the favoritesame are any point that season until the finals started. The Lakers were the overwhelming favorites out of the West and to 3 peat and the Celtics were the favorites in the East.

Stop rewriting history.

[Black Magic]

This is such BS. That Heat team wasn't even expected to beat the Celtics a round earlier. :roll: at the revisionist history. That Heat team was not the favoritesame are any point that season until the finals started. The Lakers were the overwhelming favorites out of the West and to 3 peat and the Celtics were the favorites in the East.

Stop rewriting history.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. They weren't favorites over an older Boston squad? The Bulls had the better record but better record does t = favorite to win. I watched almost every Bulls game trust me the Heat were the favorite to win. I remember after game 1 when we beat the heat by like 20 everyone started to flip a little towards the Bulls then you know what happened, we lost4-1

[FLDFSU]

This. Everyone had the Heat picked to win that and the championship because they STACKED THE DECK. Only reason why the Heat didnt have the better regular season record is because they got off to a terrible start.

You are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts.

Stop making ish up! The Defending champion Lakers were the favorites and the Celtics were the favorites out of the East. By the time the playoffs rolled around the Heat fell to third favorites in conference behindo the first placed Bulls with the MVP ROSE.

ISH=where trolls make things up to fit their moronic agendas.

[Black Magic]

Without Irving and Love...yes he was. Even with Love and Irving he would have been underdog to Atlanta.

I was referring to the 2011 team but how were they favorites against the 2015 Bulls. Keep in mind, the Bulls at this point were known for getting beat by LeBron and if I remember correctly, Kyrie didn't really get injured until the Bulls series. So going in he was good to go.

[Black Magic]

You are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts.

Stop making ish up! The Defending champion Lakers were the favorites and the Celtics were the favorites out of the East. By the time the playoffs rolled around the Heat fell to third favorites in conference behindo the first placed Bulls with the MVP ROSE.

ISH=where trolls make things up to fit their moronic agendas.

Do you seriously not remember the amount of hype that heat team got? LeBron took the Celtics to 6 the year prior with his best options being Williams and Big Z. You put him with Bosh and prime Wade.....

[FLDFSU]

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. They weren't favorites over an older Boston squad? The Bulls had the better record but better record does t = favorite to win. I watched almost every Bulls game trust me the Heat were the favorite to win. I remember after game 1 when we beat the heat by like 20 everyone started to flip a little towards the Bulls then you know what happened, we lost4-1

No they were not. When I get home I'll find you the various links of ESPN and sports betting sites that predicted by a 2/3 margin that the Heat would lose to Boston in round 2.

The funny thing is your primary account that you use probably predicted that Heat squad to lose in the first round now you wanna act like it was some foregone conclusion that the Heat would win the Chip.

[FLDFSU]

How much you wanna bet by 2019 you will be saying the Cavs were favorites to win it all and that everyone knew that Warriors were pretenders?

[kamil]

You are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts.

Stop making ish up! The Defending champion Lakers were the favorites and the Celtics were the favorites out of the East. By the time the playoffs rolled around the Heat fell to third favorites in conference behindo the first placed Bulls with the MVP ROSE.

ISH=where trolls make things up to fit their moronic agendas.

Jesus christ, are you delusional? Do you have alzheimers? Are you being deliberately stupid?

EVERYONE had the Heat winning it all. LeBron*, Wade and Bosh on one team with a pretty decent bench? Are you forgetting LeBrons* cocky attitude when he said 'Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4....' or even the media hype around that event and the entire season?

God damn it man, some of you LeBron* are borderline mentally disabled.

[kamil]

How much you wanna bet by 2019 you will be saying the Cavs were favorites to win it all and that everyone knew that Warriors were pretenders?

In 2015? There wasn't really a 'heavy favourite' but this year GSW was definitely the team to beat.

#damagecontrol

[FLDFSU]

Do you seriously not remember the amount of hype that heat team got? LeBron took the Celtics to 6 the year prior with his best options being Williams and Big Z. You put him with Bosh and prime Wade.....

I am not saying that everyone had Boston as conference favorites or the Bulls. Hell, Jeff Van Gundy said we could win 80 games right after the big 3 formed.

But the consensus was that Miami was at least 2 years away and that Boston would beat the Heat. Especially that first season of 2011. And then after the season the Bulls were 2nd favorites over us.

It was not until we won in Chicago in 5 that Miami become the favorites and that was because it was everyone thought the Mavs were overachievers. Throughout the 2011 season the Lakers were the ons on favorite to repeat. The Heat were a talented contenders that were intriguing but not "ready" to hang with the big boys of LA and Boston.

[feyki]

I don't understand that , If Lebron was Jordan level type player . Why his all teams were underdog against around 55 wins teams . Even with Wade and Bosh .

This is saying like Jordan was underdog in his all championships .

Make your choice , either Lebron wasn't that good or he had the power .

[3ball]

This is saying like Jordan was underdog in his all championships .


no one views Lebron's wins in 2012 and 2013 as "underdog" victories.

he teamed up with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, which made a Big 3 - that's more talent than any team in the league...

Then he added the 2nd best shooter ever as his 4th option.





Lebron was Jordan level type player


Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

[feyki]

no one views Lebron's wins in 2012 and 2013 as "underdog" victories.

he teamed up with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, which made a Big 3 - that's more talent than any team in the league...

Then he added the 2nd best shooter ever as his 4th option.



Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

I did forget the putting "IF" :hammerhead: . Edited .

Yes , his championships were like Moses's . With superteam . But one thing is different , that Sixers team had great competition against them , unlike Heat .

[Black Magic]

How much you wanna bet by 2019 you will be saying the Cavs were favorites to win it all and that everyone knew that Warriors were pretenders?

No way man. You can't compare 2011 Bulls to 2016 GSW. gSW just won a title the previous year, they looked like they were the greatest team ever until the playoffs. I'm sure 80% of the people thought gsw would win. 2011 Bulls were a new team with a new coach. Great defense, stale offense. Going against LeBron, Wade and Bosh in their primes.

[Black Magic]

No they were not. When I get home I'll find you the various links of ESPN and sports betting sites that predicted by a 2/3 margin that the Heat would lose to Boston in round 2.

The funny thing is your primary account that you use probably predicted that Heat squad to lose in the first round now you wanna act like it was some foregone conclusion that the Heat would win the Chip.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

[Micku]

If context matters, then Jordan's achievements are worth less. One of the weakest eras ever, with some of the weakest competition for titles in the last 30 years.

Jordan couldn't dream of Lebron's achievements by taking weak teams far. We know this because he was a failure when he had them.


Are you talking about finals teams? If you are then you are forgetting about the 00s teams. That is the weakest competition ever. Especially the early 00s. It got better in the mid 00s, but dropped in a bit in the late 00s, with the exception of 08 Celts.

Do you remember what ppl were saying about the 00s? They were calling the teams crap in comparison to the 90s and 80s. The play was also boring in comparison. The finals was in the West. Who was coming out of the East? It didn't get better until the Pistons came. And their reign only lasted for about two years in terms of finals. Then you had the 06 Heat and the 07 Cavs (lol). Then you had the 08 Celts, which is great, but then you had the 09 Magic. The competition in the 90s and 80s were better, and they had better star power to boot.

And in terms of route to the finals? The the east was strong in 2011, and then dropped back down. In the 1s peat of the Bulls in the 90s, it's strongest competition was 92. But their toughest road was 93 I think. But overall they had better teams than the Heat or the Cavs in 2012-2016. And the late 90s, you had decent teams. The late 90s Bulls had to beat a 60 plus win teams and a 50 win team every season. You can argue that it's due the expansion that they got so many wins tho.

LeBron faced some great teams in the Finals tho. Arguably the greatest teams. Although the Warriors 2016 are a bit of a suspect since they also went 7 games with the Thunder. With that said, you can say that the Thunder was better than their record since they also beat the Spurs. But talking about the 2016 is another topic entirely.


And taking in weak teams to better than what they are? You might be right on that. It was different eras tho. In the 80s, it wasn't too uncommon to see 30 win teams getting in the playoffs in both sides. This implies every team was beating each other, but the top heavy teams was so far above everyone else. MJ also couldn't get beyond the 8th seed until 88. They were all still scrubs in comparison to what the Celts, Pistons, Cavs and Hawks had.

Who knows what LBJ would've done here and MJ with the Cavs teams. It would look like different teams.

[Hey Yo]

i'm a bulls fan, and I remember 2011 season clearly. We were not favorites against Wade, Bron & Bosh in their prime
You clearly remember Chicago going 4-0 in the reg. season against Miami??

That's why the Bulls were favored...plus having the league MVP in Rose.

[Black Magic]

You clearly remember Chicago going 4-0 in the reg. season against Miami??

That's why the Bulls were favored...plus having the league MVP in Rose.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

[FLDFSU]

No way man. You can't compare 2011 Bulls to 2016 GSW. gSW just won a title the previous year, they looked like they were the greatest team ever until the playoffs. I'm sure 80% of the people thought gsw would win. 2011 Bulls were a new team with a new coach. Great defense, stale offense. Going against LeBron, Wade and Bosh in their primes.

You say that now with 20/20 hindsight.

In 2011, the Boston Celtics were coming off a year that they dispatched of Wade in Round One, dispatched of Lebron in Round Two, dispatched Dwight Howard in Round Three, and was one 4th Quarter and Kendrick Perkins injury from dispatching Kobe Bryant in Round Four.

The Boston Celtics were 1 KG injury and the Miami Heat formation away from going to 5 straight NBA Finals.

It is easy to sit up here now and say "no way an old Boston Celtics would hang with Wade, James, and Bosh in 2011," but that was not the case in 2011. That Miami Heat team had no business being in the Finals in 2011. Looking back, you may say "no way...that Heat team was loaded and was OBVIOUSLY the best team in all of basketball!"

[Black Magic]

You say that now with 20/20 hindsight.

In 2011, the Boston Celtics were coming off a year that they dispatched of Wade in Round One, dispatched of Lebron in Round Two, dispatched Dwight Howard in Round Three, and was one 4th Quarter and Kendrick Perkins injury from dispatching Kobe Bryant in Round Four.

The Boston Celtics were 1 KG injury and the Miami Heat formation away from going to 5 straight NBA Finals.

It is easy to sit up here now and say "no way an old Boston Celtics would hang with Wade, James, and Bosh in 2011," but that was not the case in 2011. That Miami Heat team had no business being in the Finals in 2011. Looking back, you may say "no way...that Heat team was loaded and was OBVIOUSLY the best team in all of basketball!"

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

[FLDFSU]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

http://www.vegasbettinglines.com/2011-NBA-Playoffs-Bulls-and-Spurs-Best-Bets-to-win-NBA-Championship_A3029.html

And here is a thread on ISH describing how the LA Lakers were indeed the overwhelming favorites to win it all prior to the season beginning.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194475

This was right before the season, after Wade, Lebron, and Bosh were under contract...

25/43 experts between ESPN, NBA, and SI picked the Lakers to repeat.

Again, this revisionist history where the 2011 Miami Heat was universally deemed to be the favorites is false. And if you go through the actual thread you will see many, many, many ISH members claiming that the Lakers were the favorites...now suddenly the 2011 Heat were the running away favorites.

And this was before the Heat struggled against Boston and Chicago in the regular season...

[Black Magic]

http://www.vegasbettinglines.com/2011-NBA-Playoffs-Bulls-and-Spurs-Best-Bets-to-win-NBA-Championship_A3029.html

And here is a thread on ISH describing how the LA Lakers were indeed the overwhelming favorites to win it all prior to the season beginning.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194475

This was right before the season, after Wade, Lebron, and Bosh were under contract...

25/43 experts between ESPN, NBA, and SI picked the Lakers to repeat.

Again, this revisionist history where the 2011 Miami Heat was universally deemed to be the favorites is false. And if you go through the actual thread you will see many, many, many ISH members claiming that the Lakers were the favorites...now suddenly the 2011 Heat were the running away favorites.

And this was before the Heat struggled against Boston and Chicago in the regular season...

I'm not saying they were the favorite to win it all, just saying the Bulls were the underdog. And judging by your links I guess I was wrong. The 'experts' on ESPN mostly picked the heat in my link I posted which is why I always get like the Bulls were the underdog

[FLDFSU]

And BTW, the link you keep posting is AFTER the Heat won 4-1 against a Boston team that many predicted would challenge for the Championship; and AFTER the Chicago Bulls looked so-so against an Atlanta team that many didn't think much about.

Again, the 2011 Los Angeles Lakers were the team to beat...not the 2011 Miami Heat.

[FLDFSU]

I'm not saying they were the favorite to win it all, just saying the Bulls were the underdog. And judging by your links I guess I was wrong. The 'experts' on ESPN mostly picked the heat in my link I posted which is why I always get like the Bulls were the underdog



Clearly, by your link, before the series started the Bulls became underdogs (again, I think that had more to do with the Heat beating the Celtics and the Bulls failing to step on the throats of the Hawks). Honestly, I didn't remember the Bulls ever being underdogs to Heat.

We could both be right. I am talking about during the season/ right before the playoffs...the Heat were not favorites against the Bulls. And for good reason..the Bulls were the No. 1 seed, had the MVP, and had swept the Heat in the regular season. Looks like you are talking about right before the series started...Obviously heading into the season, the Heat were thought to be better than the Bulls;

But anyways, my main point was to say that the Boston Celtics and the LA Lakers were the favorites in 2011...not so much about the Bulls. And when people try to act like the Heat were the favorites all along, I have to correct the record. The Heat really became the favorites in the Finals against the Mavs.

[Black Magic]

And BTW, the link you keep posting is AFTER the Heat won 4-1 against a Boston team that many predicted would challenge for the Championship; and AFTER the Chicago Bulls looked so-so against an Atlanta team that many didn't think much about.

Again, the 2011 Los Angeles Lakers were the team to beat...not the 2011 Miami Heat.

Well if you're talking about the favorite/underdog shouldn't it be before the series starts? Because the way you talk about it then wouldn't the cavs be the favorite heading into the season cause of bron taking on GSW to 6 games with no Kyrie/Love and no one thought curry or the Warriors would be this good

[ClipperRevival]

MJ separated himself from pretty much everyone else with his 2nd 3 peat at the ages of 32 -35. No player has ever been known as the clear best in the world at the age of 35, especially for perimeter players. It's simply unprecedented. Dude had 45 points in his close out game of Utah at the age of 35 in game 6 of the NBA finals.

How much more clearer do you want it? GOAT gonna GOAT. You youngsters think taking the GOAT place is easy? How the hell does 6/6 compare to 3/7? 6 mvps.

[Dray n Klay]

MJ separated himself from pretty much everyone else with his 2nd 3 peat at the ages of 32 -35. No player has ever been known as the clear best in the world at the age of 35, especially for perimeter players. It's simply unprecedented. Dude had 45 points in his close out game of Utah at the age of 35 in game 6 of the NBA finals.

How much more clearer do you want it? GOAT gonna GOAT. You youngsters think taking the GOAT place is easy? How the hell does 6/6 compare to 3/7? 6 mvps.

Meltdown Alert :biggums:

[Hey Yo]

MJ separated himself from pretty much everyone else with his 2nd 3 peat at the ages of 32 -35. No player has ever been known as the clear best in the world at the age of 35, especially for perimeter players. It's simply unprecedented. Dude had 45 points in his close out game of Utah at the age of 35 in game 6 of the NBA finals.

How much more clearer do you want it? GOAT gonna GOAT. You youngsters think taking the GOAT place is easy? How the hell does 6/6 compare to 3/7? 6 mvps.
The clear best MJ is allowed to take 2yrs off to rest up and get fresh legs?


What LeBron did in his 5th straight Finals/13th year as the leader/first option >>>> a rested up MJ

1996 All-NBA 1st team.....Pippen and MJ

1996 All NBA Defense 1st team.....Pippen, Rodman, MJ......plus Dennis as rebounding champion....again!

Steve Kerr a 50-50-90 guy off the bench > _______ Cavs bench player

[RRR3]

The whole "50 win teams beaten in the playoffs argument" is completely disingenuous in LeBron's case. First, if you are posting an out of date picture, that automatically invalidates any "argument" you're trying to make. Secondly, the 50 win cutoff unfairly punishes LeBron for the competition he faced in the shortened 2012 season. He beat two teams (Pacers, Thunder) that were winning at a pace greater than that of a 50 win team that year. The Thunder were 47-19 (meaning they had to merely go 3-13 to reach 50 wins) and the Pacers were 42-24 (meaning they merely had to go 8-12 to reach 50 wins). Furthermore, he also beat the 39-27 Boston Celtics, who while not on pace for 50, wins, could easily have gone 11-5 to reach 50 wins had they played a full season. Finally, in 2013 he beat the 49 win Pacers, who only played 81 games that year (and likely would have won the game against the Knicks IIRC if it hadn't been cancelled). So that is 2 teams (2012 Pacers, 2012 Thunder) that we all know were 50 win teams if they had played 82 games, 1 team (2013 Pacers) that likely would have won 50 if they hadn't lost 1 game due to a cancellation, and 1 team (2012 Celtics) that had an outside shot of 50 wins if they had played a full season. So the number of 50 win teams LeBron has beaten is more like 11 or 12, and it could even be 13 if the 2012 season hadn't ben shortened. At minimum, you have to give him 11 (counting 2012 Pacers and Thunder), which puts him at 1 more than Bird, who no one ever criticizes for "weak competition". Unless, of course, you want to give LeBron credit for winning his first ring on a 46 win team...

[G0ATbe]

Jordan played in one of the weakest eras of all time on a superteam, but LeBald plays in one of the weakest conferences of all time with a superteam so that argument doesnt really work here. Both are good players, top 30 at worst but Jordan has the edge for me.

[3ball]

.
Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals on far better efficiency, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

/thread

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, adjust your stats for pace

[3ball]

3ball, adjust your stats for pace
I've done this before - I'll use per 100 stats... Give me a sec (there's no difference)

you forget that the Bulls were the slowest team in the league back then...

AND pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace was barely faster in mid-80's playoffs than today, and it was SLOWER in late 80's and 90's than today - see the stats here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats), and just change the year in the web address to see other years.

[3ball]

.
Per 100 Stats Thru 31 Years Old:


JORDAN. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss):. 43.9 pts..J 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2016-sum:playoffs_per_poss):. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


We don't have per 100 stats for the Finals, but the pace for Jordan and Lebron's Finals were about the same:

1991 Finals Pace: 85.8
1992 Finals Pace: 92.3
1993 Finals Pace: 89.7

2007 Finals Pace: 82.8
2011 Finals Pace: 85.5
2012 Finals Pace: 88.6
2013 Finals Pace: 88.1
2014 Finals Pace: 87.4
2015 Finals Pace: 90.7
2016 Finals Pace: 92.0


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan STILL scores nearly 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals on far better efficiency, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

/thread

[fourkicks44]

I bet not one of you lil pu$sies will touch this post.....


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2155295.1426781299!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/jordans-shot.jpg

http://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/michael-jordan-1982.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/bulls/jordan_111102.jpg

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/michael-jordan-of-the-chicago-bulls-poses-with-the-trophy-after-the-picture-id492637411

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX5rD0lNeY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSkaY_dfqM

[fourkicks44]

I bet not one of you lil pu$sies will touch this post.....


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2155295.1426781299!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/jordans-shot.jpg

http://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/michael-jordan-1982.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/bulls/jordan_111102.jpg

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/michael-jordan-of-the-chicago-bulls-poses-with-the-trophy-after-the-picture-id492637411

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX5rD0lNeY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSkaY_dfqM

Two days later and still nobody touching this? Looks like I was right.....

[Hey Yo]

Two days later and still nobody touching this? Looks like I was right.....
What did Jordan do at UNC after Worthy left?

Hew didn't get back to the NCAA Finals in both years...even with Big Smooth.

plus UNC were the favorites in both games!!

MJ my have hit the game winning shot...but there was no question that Worthy was the man.

[fourkicks44]

What did Jordan do at UNC after Worthy left?

Hew didn't get back to the NCAA Finals in both years...even with Big Smooth.

plus UNC were the favorites in both games!!


MJ my have hit the game winning shot...but there was no question that Worthy was the man.
The absence of a shot clock did not favor Jordan or his team especially in the NCAA Tournment. Winning a national championship is such a hard accomplishment to achieve. Which makes it all the more remarkable that Jordan both won one and came up clutch to win it.


1983 Consensus First-Team All-American
1983-84 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1983-84 NCAA John R. Wooden Award
1983-84 NCAA Naismith Men's College Player of the Year Award
1984 Consensus First-Team All-American


.447 from the limited use of the three point line is also a very interesting stat from Jordan's college career

[Goofsta Knicca]

MJ was MJ. But if LeBron can keep this finals streak along with winning the odd one up, he might close the gap more over the course of his career.

[plowking]

it depends. in LeBron's case 6/6 is better than 6/10 because lets face it, getting to the finals in the east hasn't been that difficult. Its still impressive, but your telling me if you replace LeBron with Jordan he doesn't get to the finals as much? I mean this year they faced toronto (lol), last year atlanta, the years prior an overrated pacers squad and a bulls team with 2 offensive players. And a very old Boston squad that took them to 7. Context matters

Absolutely hilarious some of you think it is a cakewalk to get to the finals, and thinking any other player can replicate it. :oldlol:
Apparently LeBron is always playing with superstars and playing in an easy East. Yet, didn't he leave a team where people were calling Wade Batman and him Robin? Weren't we all told that Chris Bosh was a stud?
Didn't Lebron leave Cleveland, and they literally spent the entire 4 years in the lottery? Weren't they a lottery team when he came back, and then he took them to two straight finals, and ended up winning one against a 73 win team? Didn't he take 2 off that very same team the season before with his two best players missing?

Yeah... Anyone can do it. The league has been far weaker on numerous occasions, but somehow, no one ever has. LeBron then does it, and shazam! Every star apparently could have done it, but they just didn't want to I guess.

[theaussieguy]

I bet not one of you lil pu$sies will touch this post.....


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2155295.1426781299!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/jordans-shot.jpg

http://briansmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/michael-jordan-1982.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/bulls/jordan_111102.jpg

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/michael-jordan-of-the-chicago-bulls-poses-with-the-trophy-after-the-picture-id492637411

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTX5rD0lNeY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSkaY_dfqM
wow so jordan legit played in the scrub era with no 3 point line? Lmao, cmon fellas, it was a different game back then, absolute scrubtastic kind of game. Just lost all respect for jordan

[Lebron23]

If LeBron can win at least 7 NBA titles I put him over Jordan. I love to see LeBron wins another Regular Season MVP Award.