Kyrie, Wade and Pippen's stats during successful championship runs

[3ball]

.
KYRIENl 2016 FINALS:. 27 ppg on 47%
D WADE 2012 FINALS:. 22 ppg on 48%
D WADE 2013 FINALS:. 20 ppg on 48%

PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

[LeBird]

Shambles https://forum.sectioneighty.com/data/emoticons/0/aa8da4e952a8fe52f3668350fba1e3e4.png

[scuzzy]

Can you post Kyrie's defensive stats

While guarding 1-4's

thanks in advance

[3ball]

https://forum.sectioneighty.com/data/emoticons/0/aa8da4e952a8fe52f3668350fba1e3e4.png


Pippen's career high in a playoff series is 24 ppg, which occurred in a series where Jordan averaged 45 ppg (1992 2nd Round).. His high in a Finals is 21 ppg.

Can you imagine if Jordan got 27 ppg from his 2nd option?.. Btw, Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats 1992 were exactly the same as his stats in 1994 without Jordan, and were 90% of his 1994 stats in other years.

[3ball]

Can you post Kyrie's defensive stats


No problem - Kyrie held the 2-time MVP (Steph Curry) to 23 ppg on 40%, which is a far cry from his goat-level regular season offense.

So take this L

Jordan never had a 2nd option that gave him as much help as Kyrie gave Lebron - Kyrie's defense was superior since he locked down Curry... and regardless, Kyrie averaged 12 more ppg and 13 percentage points better in efficiency.

[riseagainst]

Can you post Kyrie's defensive stats

While guarding 1-4's

thanks in advance


this.

[KirbyPls]

.
KYRIENl 2016 FINALS:. 27 ppg on 47%
D WADE 2012 FINALS:. 22 ppg on 48%
D WADE 2013 FINALS:. 20 ppg on 48%

PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

Meltdown. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen's career high in a playoff series is 24 ppg, which occurred in a series where Jordan averaged 45 ppg (1992 2nd Round).. His high in a Finals is 21 ppg.

Can you imagine if Jordan got 27 ppg from his 2nd option?.. Btw, Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats 1992 were exactly the same as his stats in 1994 without Jordan, and were 90% of his 1994 stats in other years.
Pippen did soooo many other things besides score that Kyrie doesn't do...

Solely using PPG when discussing second options is stupid.

[noob cake]

Can you post Kyrie's defensive stats

While guarding 1-4's

thanks in advance

Stephan "MVP" Curry: 22.6/4.9 on 40.3% shooting. More turnovers than assists.

Irving completely shut down the MVP. Nice try Wall/Lillard/Rubio troll.

[3ball]

Pippen did soooo many other things besides score that Kyrie doesn't do...


Kyrie held the 2-time MVP (Steph Curry) to 23 ppg on 40%, which is a far cry from his goat-level regular season offense.. Kyrie is also a superior passer

So take this L

Jordan never had a 2nd option provide as much help as Kyrie gave Lebron - Kyrie's defense was superior since he locked down Curry... and regardless, Kyrie averaged 12 more points and 13 points better in efficiency.

[ShawkFactory]

Kyrie held the 2-time MVP (Steph Curry) to 23 ppg on 40%, which is a far cry from his goat-level regular season offense.. Kyrie is also a superior passer

So take this L

Jordan never had a 2nd option provide as much help as Kyrie gave Lebron - Kyrie's defense was superior since he locked down Curry... and regardless, Kyrie averaged 12 more points and 13 points better in efficiency.
No.

Playmaking? Rebounding?

[jlip]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11482128&postcount=84

[moongaze]

Kyrie is underrated as a defender. He completely locked down teague and held reggievjackson and curry to poor shooting

[RedBlackAttack]

Can you post Kyrie's defensive stats

While guarding 1-4's

thanks in advance
I don't care about agendas or anything else obviously driving this thread ... Kyrie worked his ass off on the defensive end in this series. And yes, he did a good job on Curry, which is why they were constantly screening him off of Steph. Meanwhile, Kyrie was clearly salivating any time he saw #30 in front of him.

It was usually after a screen, though, because Klay was his primary defender.

[ShawkFactory]

Kyrie held the 2-time MVP (Steph Curry) to 23 ppg on 40%, which is a far cry from his goat-level regular season offense.. Kyrie is also a superior passer

So take this L

Jordan never had a 2nd option provide as much help as Kyrie gave Lebron - Kyrie's defense was superior since he locked down Curry... and regardless, Kyrie averaged 12 more points and 13 points better in efficiency.
Is your argument that he NEVER had a second option like that..or that he didn't in 1996 or 1998?

Because the second part of that paragraph would lead to me to the latter of those two things...

[Terahite]

3ball is actually correct on this point

but by age 36 lebron will still surpass jordan

[3ball]

Is your argument that he NEVER had a second option like that..or that he didn't in 1996 or 1998?


NEVER

Pippen NEVER averaged 27 ppg while locking down the other team's superstar

Kyrie had better offense, defense, and passing.. Will there be anything else?

[ShawkFactory]

NEVER

Pippen NEVER averaged 27 ppg while locking down the other team's superstar

Kyrie had better offense, defense, and passing.. Will there be anything else?
Magic Johnson

21/9/7 with lockdown D

27/4/4 with lockdown D

Both are good.

[3ball]

3ball is actually correct on this point

but by age 36 lebron will still surpass jordan


Nah bud - when a player loses their athleticism, the only way they can maintain their dominance is by relying on their jumpshot, which Lebron doesn't have:

Lebron's shot less than 40% from midrange in 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17), and he only shot 28% from 3-point range this season (only 32% for his playoff career).

[Quickening]

Ok a top 5 player in the 90s is worse than a top 20 player now, we all know it was a watered down era, no need to go on about it bro :cheers:

[Tmuston Beltics]

How much less points were scored 20 years ago? Just curious. I think that has something to do with the numbers.

[3ball]

.
DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:



Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none


Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c



Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .

[3ball]

Magic Johnson


Why come on here and spout things you know aren't true?.. What a waste of time

It's common knowledge and well-documented that Pippen did spot-duty on Magic (see previous post) - he guarded him for 6 of 20 quarters, compared to Jordan's 14 of 20.

Kyrie was the primary defender on Curry for the entire series, not spot duty.

[ShawkFactory]

It's just strange how elementary your arguments become.

You use Pippen's worst 2 finals series as proof that Jordan never had the kind of help Lebron had.

Ignoring the other 4 finals series, and every other player on the team that also contributes.

:rolleyes:

[CTbasketball92]

NEVER

Pippen NEVER averaged 27 ppg while locking down the other team's superstar

Kyrie had better offense, defense, and passing.. Will there be anything else?

Honestly 3ball, MJ had such an amazing team, i don't see how you can discredit LeBron for having one too. Pippen wasn't as good of a scorer, but he was basically a better draymond green. Didn't they also have Dennis Rodman and ron harper and Toni Kukoc for some of those series? MJ had an incredible squad of stars and role players who always did their job. I'd take Kukoc over love, Ron Harper of JR Smith and Steve Kerr over Delly any day.

LeBron nearly averaged a very efficient triple double and beat a 73 win team after being down 3-1. There's just ... no way to overstate how incredible that is. Also, his stats from this year were vastly superior to Jordan's 1996 run, and probably any of his other ones from the second threepeat. Nobody will ever really acknowledge that, though, so you're good. No one will ever say LeBron's better than MJ, and they probably shouldn't. He's still a top 3 player ever, though.

Side not* Kyrie beasted the whole playoffs w. an MJ-esque midrange game and footwork and crafty finishes.

[3ball]

You use Pippen's worst 2 finals series as proof that Jordan never had the kind of help Lebron had.


Those two series show that Jordan won with less than Lebron ever did - Lebron never won with a 2nd option playing as horrible as Pippen did.

Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer.

He won in 2012 and 2013 with Wade providing far superior offense and equal playmaking to Pippen, and also a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option and the second-best shooter ever as his 4th option.

Btw, this isn't just my opinion - the 538 (http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?quality=90&strip=all&w=575&ssl=1) rankings of supporting cast says Jordan won with weaker supporting casts in 1991 and 1993 than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts.

[Hey Yo]

Those two series show that Jordan won with less than Lebron ever did - Lebron never won with a 2nd option playing as horrible as Pippen did.

Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer.

He won in 2012 and 2013 with Wade providing far superior offense and equal playmaking to Pippen, and also a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option and the second-best shooter ever as his 4th option.
Time to put these on......shit's getting pretty deep in this thread.



http://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/164272/187449464/stock-photo-green-waders-for-fly-fishing-isolated-on-a-white-background-187449464.jpg

[jlip]

.


PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

What is so funny about you hand picking these two Finals is these are the very Finals where MJ's teammates were getting the most FMVP talk over him. In '96 Rodman was so busy breaking offensive rebounding records that the coach of the opposing team claimed that Rodman won the Bulls two games in the series.

I already posted a link to a thread where you flat lied regarding the Pippen FMVP conversation in '98.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11482128&postcount=84

[3ball]

Pippen wasn't as good of a scorer, but he was basically a better draymond green.


Draymond was the Warriors' 3rd option, compared to Pippen being 2nd option, so that means the Warriors were much deeper.





Didn't they also have Dennis Rodman for some of those series?


Dennis Rodman was 34-36 years old alongside Jordan - he didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998.. He averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs..

Ron Harper was an ordinary 7 ppg role player that EVERY TEAM HAS - ditto Kukocs, who was a 12 ppg role player that played no defense.. These are guys that EVERY team has.

Btw, saying you'd take Kukoc over Love is ludicrous - Kukoc career high is 18/5 as a 1st option in 1999 (when MJ and Pip had left), compared to Love's 26/13 and All-NBA status... Don't blame Love because Lebron craters his stats - Lebron does that to ALL pf's - just look at Bosh.. The historical facts are clear-cut.





I'd take Ron Harper of JR Smith and Steve Kerr over Delly any day.


You're crazy, but it doesn't matter, because all those guys are marginal role players that EVERY team has..

So it's dumb to say "MJ's team had Kerr, Kukoc, and Harper" because every team has marginal players like this.





LeBron nearly averaged a very efficient triple double and beat a 73 win team after being down 3-1. There's just ... no way to overstate how incredible that is.


Coming back from 3-1 is less impressive than winning in 6 or less every time and NOT ever needing a 7th game.





Also, his stats from this year were vastly superior to Jordan's 1996 run


Jordan's worst Finals should be compared to Lebron's worst..

Lebron's worst was 17 ppg in 2011, and 22 ppg on 35% in 2007... These stats are far worse than Jordan's 27 ppg on 42% in 1996 Finals.

Most importantly, Jordan's stats were EXCEPTIONAL compared to everyone else in the series - for example, Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% (worst 2nd option performance ever).. Otoh, Wade averaged 27 ppg in 2011 Finals - so Jordan's 1996 Finals is WORLDS better than Lebron's 2007 or 2011 Finals.

[3ball]

Time to put these on......shit's getting pretty deep in this thread.


Curry had Jordan-level offense in the regular season, but was held to 22 ppg on 40% against Kyrie in the Finals.

Show me where Pippen locked down a 2-time MVP, or ANY superstar in the playoffs as their primary defender.

[CTbasketball92]

Draymond was the Warriors' 3rd option, compared to Pippen being 2nd option, so that means the Warriors were much deeper.




Dennis Rodman was 34-36 years old alongside Jordan - he didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998.. He averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs..

Ron Harper was an ordinary 7 ppg role player that EVERY TEAM HAS - ditto Kukocs, who was a 12 ppg role player that played no defense.. These are guys that EVERY team has.

Btw, saying you'd take Kukoc over Love is ludicrous - Kukoc career high is 18/5 as a 1st option in 1999 (when MJ and Pip had left), compared to Love's 26/13 and All-NBA status... Don't blame Love because Lebron craters his stats - Lebron does that to ALL pf's - just look at Bosh.. The historical facts are clear-cut.



You're crazy, but it doesn't matter, because all those guys are marginal role players that EVERY team has..

So it's dumb to say "MJ's team had Kerr, Kukoc, and Harper" because every team has marginal players like this.



Coming back from 3-1 is less impressive than winning in 6 or less every time and NOT ever needing a 7th game.



Jordan's worst Finals should be compared to Lebron's worst..

Lebron's worst was 17 ppg in 2011, and 22 ppg on 35% in 2007... These stats are far worse than Jordan's 27 ppg on 42% in 1996 Finals.

Most importantly, Jordan's stats were EXCEPTIONAL compared to everyone else in the series - for example, Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% (worst 2nd option performance ever).. Otoh, Wade averaged 27 ppg in 2011 Finals - so Jordan's 1996 Finals is WORLDS better than Lebron's 2007 or 2011 Finals.

Point is that pippen is a versatile piece to have, and except he's a better offensive player. Also, Pippen's defense was also pretty damn good.

Dennis Rodman was averaging like 15 and 16 rebounds during his Bulls years. He's a terrific role player and one of the better defenders of all time probably. Rodman still >>>> Tristan Thompson

Ron Harper averaged over 20 points four times and over 18 another few times. He averaged 20 points just before he went to the bulls. Much more versatile scorer than JR Smith, who has never averaged 20 points a game. Harper could do things for himself, he's greater than SHump, JR, Delly, Dahntay Jones ... etc.

Kukoc got 13 points per game on 49% shooting from the field during the regular season, but he had a poor playoffs shooting 10% worse. I'll concede that one, but he's still a solid piece. Yeah, Love has been shafted, but when he was the second option before kyrie got back, he still only shot 41% from the field. He was 19.2 and 9.9 rebounds though, so still good.

Dwade averaged 13.5 points during the 2013 finals. He was pretty damn inconsistent after 2011. Give me pippen.


As for MJ's finals performance, yeah, still way better than LeBron's worst.

[Meticode]

The whole thing with Irving's defense has always been effort and making the right choice on screens in regards to fighting over them or cutting under them. If he's 100% engaged on defense he can be an average defender where it doesn't hurt the Cavs. Love? I don't think it's a question of effort because he's usually getting burned on pick-and-rolls and looks totally lost out there sometimes.

[3ball]

Ron Harper averaged over 20 points four times and over 18 another few times.


You're forgetting that Ron Harper averaged 7 ppg in 1995 season BEFORE Jordan came back for the last 17 games.

So Harper was already washed up BEFORE Jordan got there.. nice try tho





Dennis Rodman was averaging like 15 and 16 rebounds during his Bulls years.


Rodman averaged 8.3 rebounds during entire 1997 playoffs and the same in 1998 Finals... He wasn't even a starter during 1998 playoffs.

1996 was his last good year and productive playoffs.. By 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up garbage that he was in 1999 with the Lakers, but no one noticed because "da Bulls" were 3-peating.




He's a terrific role player and one of the better defenders of all time probably. Rodman still >>>> Tristan Thompson


He didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998, so your claim about his goat defense doesn't apply to his time alongside Jordan..

Again, Rodman's last productive playoff year was 1996.





Dwade averaged 13.5 points during the 2013 finals.



Your stats are wrong - Wade averaged 20 ppg in 2013 Finals.

More importantly, Wade averaged 20 ppg on 48% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game) during 2011-2014 playoffs, compared to Pippen's 17 ppg on 40% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game) in 1996-1998 playoffs... Pippen was AIDS during the 2nd three-peat.

[nineiron]

.
KYRIENl 2016 FINALS:. 27 ppg on 47%
D WADE 2012 FINALS:. 22 ppg on 48%
D WADE 2013 FINALS:. 20 ppg on 48%

PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

no doubt.

Wade > Pippen
Kyrie > Pippen
Ray Allen > Pippen

[J Shuttlesworth]

Did you guys actually watch the finals, or even the third round? You do realize that what made the Cavs/thunder successful against Curry is switching on PnR's and not relying on one player covering Curry, right? That's not even knocking Kyrie's defense, but saying he shut down Curry is a very simplistic way of viewing things, and more of a box score mentality. Cavs won because TT was able to successfully stay with Curry. Kyrie is nowhere near the defensive level of Pippen, come on 3ball. You're also ignoring that Pippen is a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, etc. Pippen is the GOAT defender and also put up about 21/8/6 with GOAT defense during the Bulls 3peat. Without Pippen, MJ isn't winning a single championship.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Except...Pippen's defense and playmaking skills were the best of the group.

Well Pippen was a better facilitator than Wade, but Wade might technically be the better playmaker depending on your definition.

Whatever the case, another half baked CONTEXT-LESS thread from 3ball.

[NBAGOAT]

help is relative. Has 3ball ever mentioned how little help Malone got in 1998? Hornacek and Stockton's numbers make Pippen's and Kukoc's look great. Westbrook scored 27ppg in 2012. The Spurs and Warriors had far deeper benches than the Sonics and had comparable starting lineups too.

[3ball]

Except...Pippen's defense and playmaking skills were the best of the group.

Well Pippen was a better facilitator than Wade, but Wade might technically be the better playmaker depending on your definition.


Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.

Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals.

Btw, how much context do you need to compare Kyrie's 27 ppg and lockdown defense on Curry, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, while letting Schrempf get his normal stats?..

The point is that Lebron never won with his 2nd option playing that poorly, so Jordan won with less.. Pippen's 1996 Finals was the worst ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

Btw, Kyrie locked down Kyrie more than Pippen ever locked down another superstar - infact, Pippen has NEVER locked down another superstar in the playoffs.

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.

Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals.

Btw, how much context do you need to compare Kyrie's 27 ppg and lockdown defense on Curry, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, while letting Schrempf get his normal stats?..

The point is that Lebron never won with his 2nd option playing that poorly, so Jordan won with less.. Pippen's 1996 Finals was the worst ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

Btw, Kyrie locked down Kyrie more than Pippen ever locked down another superstar - infact, Pippen has NEVER locked down another superstar in the playoffs.

:coleman:

[HylianNightmare]

Cry more

[Smoke117]

Those two series show that Jordan won with less than Lebron ever did - Lebron never won with a 2nd option playing as horrible as Pippen did.

Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer.

He won in 2012 and 2013 with Wade providing far superior offense and equal playmaking to Pippen, and also a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option and the second-best shooter ever as his 4th option.

Btw, this isn't just my opinion - the 538 (http://i0.wp.com/espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?quality=90&strip=all&w=575&ssl=1) rankings of supporting cast says Jordan won with weaker supporting casts in 1991 and 1993 than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts.

It's impossible to take you seriously. The funniest thing about this is that in 98 was when Pippen was being praised everywhere for his defense and when Phil called him "a one man wrecking crew" because of the way he was dismantling the Jazz offense. Nice job cherry picking a series where he was injured the last 2 games. In 96 he led the playoffs in drating and defensive win shares...but he's never played as good as defense as Kyrie did in the finals...jesus christ you're pathetic :facepalm The difference in impact defensively is so huge that your comment up there just completely exposes you as the biased jordan dick sucker that you are.

[ShawkFactory]

Who even cares, Lebron in these last finals was better than Jordan in any of 96-98.

[90sgoat]

Ok a top 5 player in the 90s is worse than a top 20 player now, we all know it was a watered down era, no need to go on about it bro :cheers:

Pippen was never top 5 in the league.

That's just stupid, second 3peat:

Shaq
Hakeem
Malone
Payton
Penny
Ewing
Miller

I could go on, not close to top 5 or top 10.

[RedBlackAttack]

Did you guys actually watch the finals, or even the third round? You do realize that what made the Cavs/thunder successful against Curry is switching on PnR's and not relying on one player covering Curry, right? That's not even knocking Kyrie's defense, but saying he shut down Curry is a very simplistic way of viewing things, and more of a box score mentality. Cavs won because TT was able to successfully stay with Curry. Kyrie is nowhere near the defensive level of Pippen, come on 3ball. You're also ignoring that Pippen is a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, etc. Pippen is the GOAT defender and also put up about 21/8/6 with GOAT defense during the Bulls 3peat. Without Pippen, MJ isn't winning a single championship.
Who on God's green earth said he was on a level with Pippen defensively? :oldlol:

That's a strawman argument. What happened was that we were discussing Kyrie's hugely important offensive role in this series and someone inevitably came in with the "what about his terrible defense" talking point that seems to stick to certain guys regardless of how they play. Irving's defense was pretty good for most of this series. No, he wasn't Kawhi Leonard out there, but he played his part and did it consistently well enough for the Cavs to -- as a team -- virtually shut down the Warriors in the most critical moments of the series.

In order to stop that Warriors attack, which relies so much on confusing the defense with screens all over the floor, all five guys have to be connected. You can't have a weak link or they'll make a living off of exploiting it.

And, Kyrie was Steph's primary defender on most possessions. As in, that's the way the play started. Yes, the Cavs were doing a lot of switching so any screen action meant he'd switch onto someoe else, but it's not like they were hiding Kyrie somewhere else and hoping that would keep him away from Steph the way the Warriors were playing on the other end with Curry guarding Shump or RJ.

So, the "net negative" argument that people have been using for Kyrie since he came into the league simply doesn't apply in these playoffs and especially in The Finals. Kyrie is such an incredible offensive weapon, he only has to be an average defender to have a huge impact. He doesn't have to be Scottie Pippen.

I will also point out that he averaged almost as many steals as turnovers in the series. Steals aren't necessarily a great indicator of solid defense because a lot of guys gamble for them and end up out of position. That wasn't the case for the most part for Kyrie and him getting out in transition off of turnovers was another big factor down the stretch of the series.

There is just no denying his impact on the Cavs' title. LeBron was awesome in this series. I never understood why acknowledging one meant diminishing another, whether it was Jordan/Pippen, James/Wade or now LBJ/Kyrie.

You can have two great performances simultaneously on the same team.

[3ball]

:coleman:


what superstar did Pippen ever lock down as the primary defender

otoh, Curry's offense was "Jordan-level" in the regular season, and Kyrie turned that into 22 ppg on 40% in the Finals (Wizards' Jordan)

[J Shuttlesworth]

Who on God's green earth said he was on a level with Pippen defensively? :oldlol:

That's a strawman argument. What happened was that we were discussing Kyrie's hugely important offensive role in this series and someone inevitably came in with the "what about his terrible defense" talking point that seems to stick to certain guys regardless of how they play. Irving's defense was pretty good for most of this series. No, he wasn't Kawhi Leonard out there, but he played his part and did it consistently well enough for the Cavs to -- as a team -- virtually shut down the Warriors in the most critical moments of the series.

In order to stop that Warriors attack, which relies so much on confusing the defense with screens all over the floor, all five guys have to be connected. You can't have a weak link or they'll make a living off of exploiting it.

And, Kyrie was Steph's primary defender on most possessions. As in, that's the way the play started. Yes, the Cavs were doing a lot of switching so any screen action meant he'd switch onto someoe else, but it's not like they were hiding Kyrie somewhere else and hoping that would keep him away from Steph the way the Warriors were playing on the other end with Curry guarding Shump or RJ.

So, the "net negative" argument that people have been using for Kyrie since he came into the league simply doesn't apply in these playoffs and especially in The Finals. Kyrie is such an incredible offensive weapon, he only has to be an average defender to have a huge impact. He doesn't have to be Scottie Pippen.

I will also point out that he averaged almost as many steals as turnovers in the series. Steals aren't necessarily a great indicator of solid defense because a lot of guys gamble for them and end up out of position. That wasn't the case for the most part for Kyrie and him getting out in transition off of turnovers was another big factor down the stretch of the series.

There is just no denying his impact on the Cavs' title. LeBron was awesome in this series. I never understood why acknowledging one meant diminishing another, whether it was Jordan/Pippen, James/Wade or now LBJ/Kyrie.

You can have two great performances simultaneously on the same team.
"Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer. "

[3ball]

Who even cares, Lebron in these last finals was better than Jordan in any of 96-98.


MJ has at least 3 Finals that were better.

And his 1997 Finals was better - he led the Bulls in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks - and he led his team in points by 12 ppg, not 2 ppg like Lebron (edit: Jordan averaged 7.9 rebounds to Rodman's 8.3).

Howevder, the MAIN thing that made his 1997 Finals better, is that he didn't need to go to 7th game, because he hit the game-winner in Game 1, the flu game and another game-winner in Game 5, and the series winning-assist in Game 6.

Btw, jordan dominated Magic and Drexler in h2h matchups in the Finals, whereas Lebron has never dominated another all-time great in any playoff series - instead, he lets role players win FMVP.
.

[RedBlackAttack]

"Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer. "
You know the agenda. I thought we were talking about the non-troll posts. I generally don't even read the ones just looking to garner a reaction. If you want to argue with him about it, though, have at it.

That's just silly.

[3ball]

Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie, who is a superior passer to Pippen


Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.

Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals.





"Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better defense than Pippen ever did


When I say "better defense than Pippen ever did", I mean 1-on-1 defense.

Pippen has never locked down another superstar, whereas Kyrie locked down Curry - Curry went from Jordan-level offense in RS, to 22 ppg on 40% in Finals (worse than Wizards Jordan).

Ultimately, Lebron never won with his 2nd option playing as poorly as Pippen did in 1996 or 1998 Finals, so Jordan won with less.. Pippen's 1996 Finals was the worst ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ has at least 3 Finals that were better.

And his 1997 Finals was better - he led the Bulls in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks - and he led his team in points by 12 ppg, not 2 ppg like Lebron (edit: Jordan averaged 7.9 rebounds to Rodman's 8.3).

Howevder, the MAIN thing that made his 1997 Finals better, is that he didn't need to go to 7th game, because he hit the game-winner in Game 1, the flu game and another game-winner in Game 5, and the series winning-assist in Game 6.

Btw, jordan dominated Magic and Drexler in h2h matchups in the Finals, whereas Lebron has never dominated another all-time great in any playoff series - instead, he lets role players win FMVP.
.
I said 96-98, rendering about half of your post useless.

[3ball]

I said 96-98, rendering about half of your post useless.


Jordan's 1997 playoffs was better - he led the Bulls in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks - and he led his team in points by 12 ppg, not 2 ppg like Lebron (edit: Jordan averaged 7.9 rebounds to Rodman's 8.3).

Of course, his 1997 Finals was the most clutch Finals ever, which is why he didn't need a 7th game - he hit the game-winner in Game 1, the flu game and another game-winner in Game 5, and the series winning-assist in Game 6.

It's funny that people think going to 7 games is more impressive than dominating, being more clutch, and therefore not needing 7 games.





I said 96-98, rendering about half of your post useless.



...........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor



.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2016... 31.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 47.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Some pretty big gaps there.. :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Originally posted by 3ball

So it's dumb to say "MJ's team had Kerr, Kukoc, and Harper" because every team has marginal players like this.
Yeah....every team has a 50-50-90 guy like Kerr was in 1996.

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Yeah....every team has a 50-50-90 guy like Kerr was in 1996.

:rolleyes:


Most 7 ppg floor-spreaders play far better defense than Kerr.

So yeah, every team has role players like Kerr, Kukoc, Longley, Grant, etc

[Hey Yo]

PPG doesn't matter.

50-50-90 role players you can count on don't grow on trees.

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan's 1997 playoffs was better - he led the Bulls in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks - and he led his team in points by 12 ppg, not 2 ppg like Lebron (edit: Jordan averaged 7.9 rebounds to Rodman's 8.3).

Of course, his 1997 Finals was the most clutch Finals ever, which is why he didn't need a 7th game - he hit the game-winner in Game 1, the flu game and another game-winner in Game 5, and the series winning-assist in Game 6.

It's funny that people think going to 7 games is more impressive than dominating, being more clutch, and therefore not needing 7 games.




...........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor



.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2016... 31.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 47.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Some pretty big gaps there.. :confusedshrug:
Grasping at straws :lol

[97 bulls]

Why do these conversations always revolve around PPG???? It's about impact. It always will be about impact. It's also about winning. 3ball arguments have always been based on a loser mentality. A justifiable second. But you're still second.

Irving is a better scorer than Pippen. Pippen is gonna get you more wins. If the sole me sure mentioned is based on scoring, then we all should be touting Wilt Chamberlain as the GOAT. And are you guys always comparison stats across eras anyway? ??

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why do these conversations always revolve around PPG???? It's about impact. It always will be about impact. It's also about winning. 3ball arguments have always been based on a loser mentality. A justifiable second. But you're still second.

Irving is a better scorer than Pippen. Pippen is gonna get you more wins. If the sole me sure mentioned is based on scoring, then we all should be touting Wilt Chamberlain as the GOAT. And are you guys always comparison stats across eras anyway? ??

Exactly what I'm saying.

And for a player of Pippen's caliber? Arguably the best all-around player during the 90s? Its literally one of dumbest things posted on here.

Hey ISH... Lets compare Ben Wallace's PPG to Brad Daugherty's, and whoever comes out on top is the better player with GREATER impact. :lol

[NBAGOAT]

Exactly what I'm saying.

And for a player of Pippen's caliber? Arguably the best all-around player during the 90s? Its literally one of dumbest things posted on here.

Hey ISH... Lets compare Ben Wallace's PPG to Brad Daugherty's, and whoever comes out on top is better with GREATER impact. :lol

unfortunately, 3ball will just counter that with shit like "Pippen never shut down a superstar like Kyrie" with no facts to back it up and use that to argue Pippen's defensive impact doesn't matter. Even if Pippen never did, his defensive impact in undeniable with his help defense and versatility.

[97 bulls]

Exactly what I'm saying.

And for a player of Pippen's caliber? Arguably the best all-around player during the 90s? Its literally one of dumbest things posted on here.

Hey ISH... Lets compare Ben Wallace's PPG to Brad Daugherty's, and whoever comes out on top is the better player with GREATER impact. :lol
Or Bill Russell vs Patrick Ewing. Going by 3balls argument, Ewing is better than Russell because he was a better scorer.

[97 bulls]

unfortunately, 3ball will just counter that with shit like "Pippen never shut down a superstar like Kyrie" with no facts to back it up and use that to argue Pippen's defensive impact doesn't matter. Even if Pippen never did, his defensive impact in undeniable with his help defense and versatility.
What about Penny Hardaway is 96 with his man defense ? Or John Stockton in 98? Or Webber in 97?

And forget players, what about teams. Remember what his defense did to the Jazz? Or the Pacers? Pippen's defense is equivalent to a 33 point scorer.

[Goofsta Knicca]

3ball, it's time for cake https://vine.co/v/5Bua2XTg2ug

[NBAGOAT]

What about Penny Hardaway is 96 with his man defense ? Or John Stockton in 98? Or Webber in 97?

And forget players, what about teams. Remember what his defense did to the Jazz? Or the Pacers? Pippen's defense is equivalent to a 33 point scorer.

yep all great examples. 3ball with most likely argue none of them were "primarily guarded" by Pippen since none of them were sf's even if he guarded all of them a lot some primarily.

[97 bulls]

yep all great examples. 3ball with most likely argue none of them were "primarily guarded" by Pippen since none of them were sf's even if he guarded all of them a lot some primarily.
He was Hardaway's primary defender.

[andgar923]

Except...Pippen's defense and playmaking skills were the best of the group.

Well Pippen was a better facilitator than Wade, but Wade might technically be the better playmaker depending on your definition.

Whatever the case, another half baked CONTEXT-LESS thread from 3ball.
Sorry, but Pip is in no way a better playmaker/creator than Wade or Kyrie.

He's good at setting up the triangle, but he ain't creating like those two. Shit, I don't even think he's a better creator than Odom. He ran the offense in the same way that Luke did.

Before you scoff, Luke was one of the best at setting up the triangle. He knew how to get people into position, was smart at reading the defense and was timely at making great passes in the same way Pip did.

But Pip did not CREATE like Wade and Kyrie did and I don't think it's even close. Both Kyrie and Wade could break down the defense and find people in ways Pip never could.

[NBAGOAT]

He was Hardaway's primary defender.

yea I meant Stockton more when I said not being the primary defender.

[andgar923]

What about Penny Hardaway is 96 with his man defense ? Or John Stockton in 98? Or Webber in 97?

And forget players, what about teams. Remember what his defense did to the Jazz? Or the Pacers? Pippen's defense is equivalent to a 33 point scorer.

MJ was used as THE stopper on Stockton and Penny.

Shit, Penny had his way with Pip more than a few times.

Matter of fact, Pip is overrated as a one on one defender, not that he sucks or anything (he's still elite of elite) but people make him out to be THE main stopper when he wasn't. He'd get lit up often and MJ would be the one to serve as THE stopper.

[scuzzy]

Still waiting on Kyries Def Eff.

[3ball]

Why do these conversations always revolve around PPG????


No amount of defense can make up for Kyrie averaging 27 ppg on 47%, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, especially considering Kyrie locked down Curry.

Also, the reason you don't understand why PPG is so important is because you don't understand HOW MUCH BIGGER Jordan's scoring load was than anyone in history - if Pippen scored more, then Jordan wouldn't have to carry such a ridiculously goat scoring load.. Specifically, no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in every series by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - let that sink in.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of Bulls' field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the best performance and biggest load ever carried.

[nzahir]

Down goes Melt

[3ball]

And for a player of Pippen's caliber? Arguably the best all-around player during the 90s? Its literally one of dumbest things posted on here.


Saying Pippen was the best all-round player in the 90's is one of the dumbest things posted on here, considering Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of Bulls' field goals.

In addition to his team-leading passing and goat scoring load, Jordan was also the best defender at his position - Pippen cannot match this level of all-round play.. Jordan was a GREAT scorer, GREAT defender, and the team's best passer, while Pippen was only a great defender and an okay scorer.

Btw, Jordan's team-leading passing is remarkable considering his goat scoring load - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in every series by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - let that sink in.





Hey ISH... Lets compare Ben Wallace's PPG to Brad Daugherty's, and whoever comes out on top is the better player with GREATER impact. :lol


No amount of defense can make up for Kyrie averaging 27 ppg on 47%, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, especially considering Kyrie locked down Curry.

You're comparing a 4-time DPOY to Daughtery, and saying that's the same as comparing a no-time DPOY to Kyrie?

Nice try

[3ball]

Pippen was Hardaway's primary defender.


Hardaway destroyed Pippen for 25 ppg on 47% in the 1996 ECF.

Again, show me where Pippen locked down a superstar as their primary defender - it's never happened, but Kyrie did it to Curry.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're straight up delusional if you think Kyrie "locked up" Stephen Curry.

That was a total team effort combined with Curry having an inopportune shooting slump.

:oldlol: @ Kyrie "locking up" anybody.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sorry, but Pip is in no way a better playmaker/creator than Wade or Kyrie.

He's good at setting up the triangle, but he ain't creating like those two. Shit, I don't even think he's a better creator than Odom. He ran the offense in the same way that Luke did.

Before you scoff, Luke was one of the best at setting up the triangle. He knew how to get people into position, was smart at reading the defense and was timely at making great passes in the same way Pip did.

But Pip did not CREATE like Wade and Kyrie did and I don't think it's even close. Both Kyrie and Wade could break down the defense and find people in ways Pip never could.

Yeah.

Like I said, its what one considers playmaking. How you described it is totally fair and I would mostly agree.

I still think you could argue, under Phil's system, Pippen was better at running an offense and had the track record proving it.

[3ball]

some misinformation itt

[3ball]

Yeah.

Like I said, its what one considers playmaking. How you described it is totally fair and I would mostly agree.

I still think you could argue, under Phil's system, Pippen was better at running an offense and had the track record proving it.
:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Pippen has the track record to prove it


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



The stats show that JORDAN assisted on the highest proportion of Bulls' field goals.

In addition to his team-leading passing and goat scoring load, Jordan was also the best defender ever at his position - Pippen cannot match this level of all-round play.. Jordan was a GREAT scorer, GREAT defender, and the team's best passer, while Pippen was only a great defender, okay/decent scorer, and assisted teammates less.

Btw, Jordan's team-leading passing is remarkable considering his goat scoring load - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in every series by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - let that sink in.






Pippen was better at running an offense


You're ignorant about the triangle - no one "ran the offense" in the triangle.

It was an "equal opportunity offense" where everyone had the same duties.. Everyone caught the ball on the post and had the option of handing off to a cutter, shooting or otherwise passing - guys like Kerr and Longley would hand-off most of the time, while guys like Jordan and Pippen would shoot more and occasionally break the offense to make a play (although it was mostly Jordan who broke the offense)..

Btw, Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.. Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You deleted your post again.

:oldlol:

You do realize anybody can post quotes from Phil, teammates of Pippen and Jordan himself literally saying Scottie was the utility man for those Chicago teams and set the offense up....right? Like, what the hell are you even posting right now? None of that garbage is relevant.

[3ball]

You do realize people can post quotes from Phil, teammates of Pippen and Jordan himself literally saying Scottie was the utility man for those Chicago teams and set the offense up.....right?


Pippen played for 15 seasons.. It isn't notable that players and coaches complimented Pippen on his passing - they're PROFESSIONALS - they have to comment, give fake smiles and standard soundbites that compliment a good player.

However, although Pippen and Jordan often led the fastbreak, there was no one person designated to "set up the offense" in the halfcourt triangle, regardless of any 'media-speak' comments that another professional might make.

Virtually any player on the court (except maybe the center) could "initiate" the triangle, which entailed making the first pass to the wing or post (and then cutting) - that's all Pippen did by "initiating" the offense, and other players like Kerr, Harper or Kukoc did the exact same thing..

And again, every player on the team was also on the RECEIVING end of that first pass to the wing or post - after catching that pass, they had the option of handing off to a cutter, shooting or otherwise passing - guys like Kerr and Longley would hand-off most of the time, while guys like Jordan and Pippen would shoot more

[97 bulls]

MJ was used as THE stopper on Stockton and Penny.

Shit, Penny had his way with Pip more than a few times.

Matter of fact, Pip is overrated as a one on one defender, not that he sucks or anything (he's still elite of elite) but people make him out to be THE main stopper when he wasn't. He'd get lit up often and MJ would be the one to serve as THE stopper.
No MJ wasn't. Come on I remember posting from a website of a JORDAN FAN with the website name being "chasing23" where he even said that Pippen guarded Hardaway.

[hitmanyr2k]

Sorry, but Pip is in no way a better playmaker/creator than Wade or Kyrie.

He's good at setting up the triangle, but he ain't creating like those two. Shit, I don't even think he's a better creator than Odom. He ran the offense in the same way that Luke did.

Before you scoff, Luke was one of the best at setting up the triangle. He knew how to get people into position, was smart at reading the defense and was timely at making great passes in the same way Pip did.

But Pip did not CREATE like Wade and Kyrie did and I don't think it's even close. Both Kyrie and Wade could break down the defense and find people in ways Pip never could.


This is some of the most ridiculous bullshit I've ever read :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Hardaway destroyed Pippen for 25 ppg on 47% in the 1996 ECF.

Again, show me where Pippen locked down a superstar as their primary defender - it's never happened, but Kyrie did it to Curry.
Again, you bring a stat, I bring context. You know why Hardaway shot 47%? Because in game 1 (his best game) he shot 71% and scored 38 pts. It should be noted that the Bulls won by 38 pts.

What about the other three games? 18 pts on 40% shooting. 18 pts on 33%. And 28 pts on 42%.

So if we're grading this here, he got 1 "A" (in figure painting), 2 "Fs", and a "D".

Lol that's acceptable? You're argument is a joke.

I'm trying to figure out why we keep having to rehash the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[97 bulls]

No amount of defense can make up for Kyrie averaging 27 ppg on 47%, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, especially considering Kyrie locked down Curry.

Also, the reason you don't understand why PPG is so important is because you don't understand HOW MUCH BIGGER Jordan's scoring load was than anyone in history - if Pippen scored more, then Jordan wouldn't have to carry such a ridiculously goat scoring load.. Specifically, no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in every series by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - let that sink in.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of Bulls' field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the best performance and biggest load ever carried.
And again, Jordan scored more because he wanted to. He said that he set out to win a championship while leading the league in scoring. More rehashing of the same nonsense. You're not spewing anything new or that hasn't been refuted. I'm embarrassed for you.

[3ball]

And again, Jordan scored more because he wanted to.


We've already proven that this 2nd grade logic is factually incorrect because Pippen played to 90-100% capacity alongside Jordan, which proves the Bulls needed Jordan to score all those points.

Pippen's stats without Jordan in 1994 (22.0 ppg and 5.6 apg) were the same as his stats WITH Jordan (21.0 ppg and 7.0 apg in 1992), and nearly the same (90% capacity) in other years.. That proves you're wrong

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen played for 15 seasons.. It isn't notable that players and coaches complimented Pippen on his passing - they're PROFESSIONALS - they have to comment, give fake smiles and standard soundbites that compliment a good player.

That's a bullshit cop out though. Mike got the same praise via his scoring and defense, yet nobody and ESPECIALLY you are gonna question otherwise.

Pippen's defensive numbers speak for themself. The games and testimonials from peers, coaches and teammates ALIKE all point to Pippen being one of IF not the best all around, utility man in the 90s.

And again, nobody is suggesting the triangle wasn't an "equal opportunity offense". What they're saying is Pippen initiated it. When it broke down, he was the guy, top of the key, doing the bulk of Chicago's playmaking...hence Jordan's otherworldly off-ball game.

[hitmanyr2k]

.
KYRIENl 2016 FINALS:. 27 ppg on 47%
D WADE 2012 FINALS:. 22 ppg on 48%
D WADE 2013 FINALS:. 20 ppg on 48%

PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less



.
KYRIENl 2016 FINALS:. 27 ppg on 47%
D WADE 2012 FINALS:. 22 ppg on 48%
D WADE 2013 FINALS:. 20 ppg on 48%

PIPPEN. 1996 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 34%
PIPPEN. 1998 FINALS:. 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

Jordan won with so much less they were touting his teammate as a Finals MVP candidate before the Game 3 injury got worse as the series went on.

Pippen Stands in Utahs way (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080102_1_scottie-pippen-karl-malone-bulls)

Pippen Earning Master's Degree in Defense (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080106_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-john-stockton)

At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll (http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html)

Finals MVP - This time Pippen deserves it (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone)

What about Pippen for Finals MVP? (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all)

NBA Finals MVP Not an Easy Choice (http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1998/NBA-Finals-MVP-Not-an-Easy-Choice/id-778ed9711147fd5917209bbf1c8c2091)

[tpols]

This is some of the most ridiculous bullshit I've ever read :oldlol:


andgar and these jordan fans losin their minds :lol

saying pippen isnt as good at playmaking for others or setting others up as kyrie irving ?? kyrie is one of the worst tunnel vision getters in the league.. he doesnt have a facilitator's or passer's mindset at all, but hes dominant at his iso scoring niche.

how can somebody who claims to watch the bulls say that ? only answer is theyve never seen kyrie play and are boosting him to make jordan look more favorable to bron.. sad

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan won with so much less they were touting his teammate as a Finals MVP candidate before the Game 3 injury got worse as the series went on.

Pippen Stands in Utahs way (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080102_1_scottie-pippen-karl-malone-bulls)

Pippen Earning Master's Degree in Defense (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080106_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-john-stockton)

At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll (http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html)

Finals MVP - This time Pippen deserves it (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone)

What about Pippen for Finals MVP? (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all)

NBA Finals MVP Not an Easy Choice (http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1998/NBA-Finals-MVP-Not-an-Easy-Choice/id-778ed9711147fd5917209bbf1c8c2091)

I was too lazy to dig thru and post these, but its pretty much what I was saying earlier. 3ball thinking Pippen's defensive skills and playmaking ability were MYTHS is one of the most unintentionally funniest things I've read on here. :oldlol:

Guy probably thinks nobody knows how to use google either.

[ImKobe]

Even Shaq had less help from 00-02 and literally averaged 35+ ppg on 60+% shooting for 3 straight Finals

[3ball]

why are you guys all lying itt?

are you that desperate?

now shaq averaged more than Jordan in the Finals?... I'll post those stats that show Jordan had higher PPG, PER, WS/48 and TS than Shaq's 2000-2002 seasons in regular season and playoffs.

[3ball]

so many lies itt

[3ball]

That's a bullshit cop out though. Mike got the same praise via his scoring and defense, yet nobody and ESPECIALLY you are gonna question otherwise.


There are FAR more quotes saying Jordan was a superior passer than there are for Pippen - it isn't REMOTELY close:

You forget that Jordan played point guard for 24 games in 1989, where he averaged 30/9/11 including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games - within a few games of playing PG, the entire media was ALREADY saying Jordan was a better point guard than Magic and Isiah:

http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/


No one ever said Pippen was a better PG than Magic or Isiah because he wasn't capable of playing point guard anywhere near as good as Jordan.. Ultimately, you just don't get it - Jordan assisted on a higher proportion of teammate field goals despite scoring 50-100% more than Pippen (depending on the game or series (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920)).. Let that sink in - Pippen's passing and playmaking was nowhere near Jordan's.





And again, nobody is suggesting the triangle wasn't an "equal opportunity offense". What they're saying is Pippen initiated it.


Not true - they said ANYONE initiated the triangle and this is common knowledge and easily viewable by watching a few possessions of any game -

Virtually any player on the court (except maybe the center) could "initiate" the triangle, which entailed making the first pass to the wing or post (and then cutting) - that's what guys like Jordan and Pippen did by "initiating" the offense, and other players like Kerr, Harper or Kukoc did the exact same thing.. Here's a video showing how all players "initiated" the offense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUiXwNtgV2k


So this notion that certain guys initiated the offense or "ran" the offense is not true - all players had the responsibility of initiating the offense, and no one "ran" it.. The triangle offense wasn't an "equal opportunity" offense in NAME-ONLY.





When the offense broke down, Pippen did the bulk of Chicago's playmaking...hence Jordan's otherworldly off-ball game.


If Pippen did the bulk of the playmaking, why did Jordan assist on a higher proportion of teammate field goals?... This means you're factually wrong and spouting lies.

Btw, Jordan's off-ball game was goat from his rookie year (when he played exclusively off-ball).. And when the offense broke down in the triangle, the Bulls gave the ball to JORDAN almost every time to playmake - everyone knows this.. It's pretty ludicrous that you would say otherwise.

There's a reason Jordan assisted on more teammate field goals despite scoring 50-100% more - it's because he was a far better passer, creator and playmaker.

But Jordan's passing was always overlooked by the casual fan because his scoring was goat by a healthy margin - so that's all anyone paid attention to - fans ignore the fact that he averaged only 1 less assist than Lebron in the playoffs, despite averaging nearly 6 more points and playing off-ball more - they think Lebron is a significantly better passer than Jordan, when he's actually a worse passer..

[97 bulls]

We've already proven that this 2nd grade logic is factually incorrect because Pippen played to 90-100% capacity alongside Jordan, which proves the Bulls needed Jordan to score all those points.

Pippen's stats without Jordan in 1994 (22.0 ppg and 5.6 apg) were the same as his stats WITH Jordan (21.0 ppg and 7.0 apg in 1992), and nearly the same (90% capacity) in other years.. That proves you're wrong
And I responded by telling you that he scored 21 ppg in a league that took more shots.

And again. It's this loser mentality. Would it have been more beneficial if Pippen scored 25 ppg on 45% shooting? But the Bulls win 42 games?

[3ball]

Jordan won with so much less they were touting his teammate as a Finals MVP candidate before the Game 3 injury got worse as the series went on.

Pippen Stands in Utahs way (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080102_1_scottie-pippen-karl-malone-bulls)

Pippen Earning Master's Degree in Defense (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080106_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-john-stockton)

At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll (http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html)

Finals MVP - This time Pippen deserves it (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone)

What about Pippen for Finals MVP? (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all)

NBA Finals MVP Not an Easy Choice (http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1998/NBA-Finals-MVP-Not-an-Easy-Choice/id-778ed9711147fd5917209bbf1c8c2091)


Those are 6 articles nationwide playing devil's advocate, compared to thousands for Jordan - and the reason Jordan was the consensus MVP is because he played much better than Pippen thru 4 games:

Averages thru 4 games:

JORDAN: 32.0 ppg.. 4.8 reb.. 2.3 apg.. 45%
PIPPENI: 20.0 ppg.. 6.8 reb.. 3.5 apg.. 47%


Jordan is the MVP thru 4 games, and obviously for the series.. Pippen had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games, so Jordan had to put the team on his back.

[hitmanyr2k]

There are FAR more quotes saying Jordan was a superior passer than there are for Pippen - it isn't REMOTELY close:

You forget that Jordan played point guard for 24 games in 1989, where he averaged 30/9/11 including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games - within a few games of playing PG, the entire media was ALREADY saying Jordan was a better point guard than Magic and Isiah:

http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/



Like most stat whores Jordan was gunning for triple doubles you imbecile :oldlol:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-04-09/sports/8901190048_1_triple-double-new-statistic-box-score


During breaks in games, Jordan has been wandering over to the scorer`s table to get updates on how many rebounds, assists and points he needs to fill his three double-figure quotas.

``The guys at the scorer`s desk let me know what I need,`` he said. ``They tell me, `You need three assists; you need two rebounds.```

Jordan also has been double-checking the figures with Chicago assistants.

``They keep me in tune,`` he said. ``They keep reminding me when I come back to the huddle, how much I need.``

Last Sunday, at home against New Jersey, the 10th assist was Jordan`s final goal.

``I knew I had nine assists,`` he said, ``and I looked at (forward) Brad (Sellers), and said, `Brad, can I count on you for my 10th?` And he said, `yeah` and hit a jumper from the baseline.``

The push for the elusive triple-double is part of Jordan`s push for greater respect.

``If the way I`m playing now doesn`t convince them I`m a complete player,`` he said, ``then nothing will.``

[3ball]

And I responded by telling you that he scored 21 ppg in a league that took more shots.


Pippen himself took 17.8 shots in 1994, compared to only 16.6 in 1992, so your theory is wrong.





Would it have been more beneficial if Pippen scored 25 ppg on 45% shooting? But the Bulls win 42 games?


The Bulls would've won more and gone further in the playoffs if Pippen could've scored more because their drop-off without Jordan was due to their OFFENSE, not defense:

The Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) was the same relative to the league as their first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994
.

[hitmanyr2k]

Those are 6 articles nationwide playing devil's advocate, compared to thousands for Jordan - and the reason Jordan was the consensus MVP is because he played much better than Pippen thru 4 games:

Averages thru 4 games:

JORDAN: 32.0 ppg.. 4.8 reb.. 2.3 apg.. 45%
PIPPENI: 20.0 ppg.. 6.8 reb.. 3.5 apg.. 47%


Jordan is the MVP thru 4 games, and obviously for the series.. Pippen had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games, so Jordan had to put the team on his back.

Yippee with the stats. Do you think Pippen gave a **** that he only scored 10 points in Game 3? He still dominated the shit out of that game defensively and the Bulls got the win. That's all that mattered.

[3ball]

Like most stat whores Jordan was gunning for triple doubles you imbecile :oldlol:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-04-09/sports/8901190048_1_triple-double-new-statistic-box-score


Many players check their stats, including Lebron (see youtube link below), who has a SHIRT saying "check my stats"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxfA_sUauCo


Also,

"In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league’s leading scorer the last two seasons to being lumped with Johnson, John Stockton of Utah and Isiah Thomas of Detroit as the elite among NBA point guards. Jordan may already be the best of the group.
Entering today’s 12:35 p.m. game against the Hawks at The Omni, Jordan has seven triple-doubles (double-figure totals in scoring, rebounding and assists) in the last eight games. His streak of seven consecutive triple-doubles ended Friday in a 114-112 overtime loss to Detroit in which Jordan finished with 40 points, 11 assists and seven rebounds. Before Jordan’s run, the most consecutive triple-doubles in the league this season was two, by Magic Johnson and Portland’s Clyde Drexler.
Since Oscar Robertson... Johnson has the most triple-doubles in a season with 18. Jordan already has 11 triple-doubles while learning the new position.
“Everybody has to watch him with the ball,” Drexler said. “The other guys are free to roam, and their shooting percentages are going to soar. I think (Jordan) handles the ball better than Magic. (Jordan) just makes everybody else better. When he gets used to that position . . “

http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

[97 bulls]

Pippen himself took 17.8 shots in 1994, compared to only 16.6 in 1992, so your theory is wrong.
Right. He took more shots in a league that was shooting less. It's simple math. He scored 5 more points in 94 than he did in 93. But you never want to acknowledge this fact because it blows your argument out of the water. That's roughly a 30% increase. Again. It's a play on stats without considering context. Scoring was down across the board when comparing 92 to 94. Why wouldn't that effect Pippen?



The Bulls would've won more and gone further in the playoffs if Pippen could've scored more because their drop-off without Jordan was due to their OFFENSE, not defense:
Ok, ok. Lets say Pippen steps in and scores 30 ppg. Who takes Pippen's place and scores 20? Grant? Then who takes Grant role? You see the dilemma? The Bulls didn't do a good job replacing Jordan. Hell that couldn't replace Jordan. But theres no need to undermine Pippen. All the Bulls stepped up in Jordans place.



The Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) was the same relative to the league as their first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994
.
And here in is where how they won 55 games was answered. They lost a great defender in Jordan AND MAINTAINED their defense. Which means they stepped up.

How many sticks of dynamite have to go off in you're head before you acknowledge that there's more to playing basketball than ppg?

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=3ball]Many players check their stats, including Lebron (see youtube link below), who has a SHIRT saying "check my stats"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxfA_sUauCo


Also,

"[I][COLOR="Red"]In just 16 games at point guard, Jordan has gone from the league

[3ball]

He scored 5 more points in 94 than he did in 93.

But you never want to acknowledge this fact because it blows your argument out of the water. That's roughly a 30% increase.


He scored 3.4 more (22.0 to 18.6), which is 18% more, so you just lied to make an erroneous point.

Pippen's 18.6 points in 1993 means he played to 85% capacity of his 1994 stats - in 1992, he played to 100% capacity.. So depending on the year, Pippen played to 85-100% capacity alongside Jordan compared to his 1994 stats.

Since Pippen was playing to 85-100% capacity alongside Jordan, we know all of Jordan's scoring was necessary to win.. Without Jordan's scoring, Pippen's stats wouldn't increase over his 1992 stats, since they didn't in 1994.. So my point is 100% valid and you're grasping at straws.





Scoring was down across the board when comparing 92 to 94. Why wouldn't that effect Pippen?


Because GOAT scorer left the team, and so Pippen's scoring responsibility took a GOAT increase.

Nonetheless, his production was no better than he did alongside Jordan in 1992, and barely better than other years.. His max scoring capacity was about 20 ppg.. period





Ok, ok. Lets say Pippen steps in and scores 30 ppg. Who takes Pippen's place and scores 20? Grant? Then who takes Grant role? You see the dilemma?


No, there is no dilemma - the Bulls' defensive ranking remained the same in 1994 compared to their first 3-peat, so it was their drop-off offensively that caused them to decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team (they dropped from 1st all-time in ORtg to 14th in the league).

Accordingly, Pippen scoring more helps the team in 1994 - but he wasn't capable of it, so he scored the same as he did in 1992 alongside Jordan, and barely more than other years.





But they weren't winning with Jordan at PG


The Bulls win percentage with Jordan at PG was the same as their overall regular season record... nice try tho





And here in is where how they won 55 games was answered. They lost a great defender in Jordan AND MAINTAINED their defense. Which means they stepped up.


So the Bulls were an equal defensive team without the greatest SG defender of all time?... :rolleyes: ... Obviously, there must be something else going on - here's what it was:

The 1994 Bulls were playing all-out every possession to prove themselves, while the 1993 Bulls were half-assing the regular season to save energy for the 3-peat playoff run - this is why they only won 57 games, but then defeated two 60-win teams in the playoffs (knicks, suns).. But even though the 1994 Bulls gave a FAR greater effort, their defensive ranking didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Furthermore, teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender.

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.

[97 bulls]

So the Bulls were an equal defensive team without the greatest SG defender of all time?... :rolleyes: ... Obviously, there must be something else going on - here's what it was:
The 1994 Bulls were playing all-out every possession to prove themselves, while the 1993 Bulls were half-assing the regular season to save energy for the 3-peat playoff run - this is why they only won 57 games, but then defeated two 60-win teams in the playoffs (knicks, suns).. But even though the 1994 Bulls gave a FAR greater effort, their defensive ranking didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).
So you reiterated my point. They stepped up defensively. Why is the defensive side of the ball so trivialized by you? Why would the 94 Bulls success as a whole, hold more weight had they improved their scoring but not their defense? And how unreasonable is it for you to even think that they would be able to do so WITHOUT the GOAT? Seems like pretty lofty expectations for "scrubs" as you put it.



Furthermore, teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender. Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.
Right. So what's the point of all this????? You've admitted exactly what I've been saying for as long as I can remember. Defense has the same impact as offense, energy is finite thus why it's rare that a player can do both (offense and defense) at a high level. So even if what you say is true, that Pippen's offensive impact didn't improve when Jordan left, his impact on defense did. WITHOUT LOSING HIS IMPACT OFFENSIVELY!!!!!!! As well as Grant, Armstrong an Co.

It took a while but you finally got it. Jordan had great teammates that had high impact on the game. Which is why they were good enough to still compete for a title. Jordan makes them able to WIN the title. No other NBA team can or has been able to make that claim. Stats be damned, its about winning.

[3ball]

So you reiterated my point. They stepped up defensively.


Despite the Bulls' far greater defensive effort in 1994, their defensive ranking didn't improve over the 1st 3-peat, because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.

So Jordan's absence had a huge impact on their defense - the team couldn't improve their defensive ranking over their 1st three-peat even though they were playing much harder.





So even if what you say is true, that Pippen's offensive impact didn't improve when Jordan left, his impact on defense did. WITHOUT LOSING HIS IMPACT OFFENSIVELY!!!!!!! As well as Grant, Armstrong an Co.


Sure.... :confusedshrug:

Pippen and Grant stepped it up defensively, but the TEAM'S defensive ranking didn't improve from their 1st three-peat because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.





It took a while but you finally got it. Jordan had great teammates that had high impact on the game.


His teammates weren't great, except for Scottie..

Grant was the 3rd option and his maximum capacity was 15/11 without Jordan (1994), which is a far cry from Love's 26/13 or Bosh's 24/12.... :eek: (threadworthy?... i'll wait)

[J Shuttlesworth]

bruh how the **** do you have time to do all these debates? :biggums:

[3ball]

bruh how the **** do you have time to do all these debates? :biggums:


i wouldn't call it a "debate", i'd call it "informing"

at this point, it's just knitting together various arguments from different threads via copy paste.
.

[Hey Yo]

Despite the Bulls' far greater defensive effort in 1994, their defensive ranking didn't improve over the 1st 3-peat, because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.

So Jordan's absence had a huge impact on their defense - the team couldn't improve their defensive ranking over their 1st three-peat even though they were playing much harder.



Sure.... :confusedshrug:

Pippen and Grant stepped it up defensively, but the TEAM'S defensive ranking didn't improve from their 1st three-peat because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.



His teammates weren't great, except for Scottie..

Grant was the 3rd option and his maximum capacity was 15/11 without Jordan (1994), which is a far cry from Love's 26/13 or Bosh's 24/12.... :eek: (threadworthy?... i'll wait)
Grant made his only all-star appearance in 1994.....same for BJ Armstrong. Scottie's first 'All NBA 1st team' was in 94.

Looks like MJ was making them worse up until then.

[CuterThanRubio]

Using PPG stats to mask Pippen's true impact is the sign of an insecure Jordan fanboy desperate to conceal certain numbers that would expose his entire gimmick!

Pippen led the team in assists and steals, and was second in rebounds and blocks in 96

Jordan was the beneficiary of his playmaking, defense and ability to create second chance opportunities!


He purposely ignored 97 where Pippen averaged 20 and 8

Pippen had two games of 21 and another with 28 in 98, and in the game where he only scored 6 he had 11 boards and 11 assists.


Skewing statistics is the 3ball method!

The Jazz second leading scorer in 98 was only putting up 10, so compared to their competition 15 was the 2nd highest average in the entire series, and in 96 he was the fourth highest scoring player.

Basic fact checking is all it takes to squash these ridiculous claims!

[97 bulls]

Despite the Bulls' far greater defensive effort in 1994, their defensive ranking didn't improve over the 1st 3-peat, because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.

So Jordan's absence had a huge impact on their defense - the team couldn't improve their defensive ranking over their 1st three-peat even though they were playing much harder.
Right. They MAINTAINED. What good is Jordan if they could lose him and then improve????
You're saying this as if it's a bad thing.


Pippen and Grant stepped it up defensively, but the TEAM'S defensive ranking didn't improve from their 1st three-peat because they were missing the best defensive SG of all time.
So?!!!!!!!! How is that a bad thing? What even more ironic is the fact that you are using the same standard against them on the offensive end. The Bulls SUCK because they couldnt maintain their offensive output without Jordan. The Bulls SUCK because they only maintained their defensive without Jordan. What the hell?



His teammates weren't great, except for Scottie..

Grant was the 3rd option and his maximum capacity was 15/11 without Jordan (1994), which is a far cry from Love's 26/13 or Bosh's 24/12.... :eek: (threadworthy?... i'll wait)
But lets totally omit Grants defensive dominance over Love and Bosh. You even admitted that players have a hard time expending the same amount of energy on the offense and defensive end. It's like you're arguing with yourself.

[3ball]

Right. They MAINTAINED. What good is Jordan if they could lose him and then improve????
You're saying it like it's a bad thing


It isn't a bad thing, but it shows the impact of Jordan - the team was playing way harder but didn't improve defensively because Jordan wasn't there.





So?!!!!!!!! How is that a bad thing? What even more ironic is the fact that you are using the same standard against them on the offensive end. The Bulls SUCK because they couldnt maintain their offensive output without Jordan. The Bulls SUCK because they only maintained their defensive without Jordan. What the hell?


Defense can be affected much more by sheer effort than offense can, which requires true skill and ability.





But lets totally omit Grants defensive dominance over Love and Bosh. You even admitted that players have a hard time expending the same amount of energy on the offense and defensive end. It's like you're arguing with yourself.


It isn't just me that thinks Bosh and Love are much better than Grant - it's everybody - the NBA, pundits and coaches, since Bosh is a 10-time all-star and all-nba player, and Love is also a multiple time all-star and all-nba.

tbh, there's never been a 10-time all-star that was a 3rd option, but hey, that's the kind of support you can get when you team-hop.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Grant was the 3rd option and his maximum capacity was 15/11 without Jordan (1994), which is a far cry from Love's 26/13 or Bosh's 24/12.... :eek: (threadworthy?... i'll wait)

Comparing 2nd option numbers to 1st option numbers while ignoring all context like that Bulls team being much better than those Wolves and Raptors teams, thus Grant not having anywhere near an absolute green light even if Pippen took a backseat to him and was the 2nd option.

:facepalm

[3ball]

Pippen led the team in assists and steals, and was second in rebounds and blocks in 96


He'd better do something to make up for his anemic, cover-my-eyes offense, including 16.9 ppg on 39.0% in the 1996 playoffs and 15 ppg on 34% in the Finals!!!!! (worst-ever for a 2nd option on winning team)... Jordan nearly doubled his scoring average (31 to 17) with 46% efficiency!!

In the 1997 playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in EVERYTHING - points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks (edit: Rodman averaged 8.3 rebounds to Jordan's 7.9).

And unlike Lebron, who leads his team in scoring by 2 ppg and sometimes not at all, Jordan led his team in scoring by 12 ppg (31 to 19 over Pippen in 97' PO).. Infact, no-all time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, let alone by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.





Pippen had two games of 21 and another with 28 in 98, and in the game where he only scored 6 he had 11 boards and 11 assists.

Skewing statistics is the 3ball method!


I posted his overall stats for an entire playoff run or Finals, whereas you're cherry picking single games - so YOU'RE the one skewing the numbers, not me.

Here's more overall stats for you - Pippen's total averages in 1996-1998 playoffs: 17/7/5 on 40.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game).... yikes... :eek:





The Jazz second leading scorer in 98 was only putting up 10, so compared to their competition Pippen's 15 was the 2nd highest average in the entire 98' Finals


Jordan more than doubled Pippen's scoring average in 1998 Finals: 33 ppg to 15 ppg... And in the entire 1998 playoffs: 32 to 16.

And since Pippen was MIA in the closeout game, he was forced to produce the greatest clutch the game's ever seen, as usual... Thanks Pippen for never hitting a crucial shot in the playoffs (literally 1 or 2 in his entire career.. he was NOT a clutch player at all)





and in 96 he was the fourth highest scoring player.


4th highest in a series?... You're bragging about that?

Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% in those Finals, which is the worst-ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

[3ball]

Comparing 2nd option numbers to 1st option numbers


You're forgetting that grant ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be the 1st option on ANY nba team.

I know you never watched Horace, but he was a play-finisher - no one thought for a nanosecond of letting him create - compare his offensive skillset to Tristan Thompson - can Tristan be a 1st option?

That alone proves Grant < Bosh and Love, who ARE good enough to be 1st options.

:facepalm ... kids

[Spurs5Rings2014]

You're forgetting that grant ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be the 1st option on ANY nba team.

I know you never watched Horace, but compare his offensive skillset to Tristan Thompson - can Tristan be a 1st option?

That alone proves Grant < Bosh and Love, who ARE good enough to be 1st options.

:facepalm ... kids

You're only looking at PPG again, though, while ignoring defense and intangibles. Grant pushed Jordan's shit in on the Magic in '95. Love and Bosh aren't capable of something like that. And no, I watched ball in the 90's. You're deliberately underrating Jordan's surrounding casts to prop him up and attack LeBron/Curry. You're an insecure stan, but your targets are inaccurate. While you fire away at top 8-10'ers, the real threat to the crown has already usurped 'his Airness.'

:pimp:

[CuterThanRubio]

He'd better do something to make up for his anemic, cover-my-eyes offense, including 16.9 ppg on 39.0% in the 1996 playoffs and 15 ppg on 34% in the Finals!!!!! (worst-ever for a 2nd option on winning team)... Jordan nearly doubled his scoring average (31 to 17) with 46% efficiency!!

In the 1997 playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in EVERYTHING - points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks (edit: Rodman averaged 8.3 rebounds to Jordan's 7.9).

And unlike Lebron, who leads his team in scoring by 2 ppg and sometimes not at all, Jordan led his team in scoring by 12 ppg (31 to 19 over Pippen in 97' PO).. Infact, no-all time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, let alone by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.



I posted his overall stats for an entire playoff run or Finals, whereas you're cherry picking single games - so YOU'RE the one skewing the numbers, not me.

Here's more overall stats for you - Pippen's total averages in 1996-1998 playoffs: 17/7/5 on 40.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game).... yikes... :eek:



Jordan more than doubled Pippen's scoring average in 1998 Finals: 33 ppg to 15 ppg... And in the entire 1998 playoffs: 32 to 16.

And since Pippen was MIA in the closeout game, he was forced to produce the greatest clutch the game's ever seen, as usual... Thanks Pippen for never hitting a crucial shot in the playoffs (literally 1 or 2 in his entire career.. he was NOT a clutch player at all)



4th highest in a series?... You're bragging about that?

Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% in those Finals, which is the worst-ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

LeBron led in every category against the best team ever barring suspensions and injuries, deal with it!

Pippen was not looking to lead the team in scoring, his impact is deeper than that you and you know it.

I wasn't bragging about him being the 4th highest, I'm pointing out that he wasn't that far below the best players on the opposing teams even though he was struggling to score, isn't that something!

[97 bulls]

It isn't a bad thing, but it shows the impact of Jordan - the team was playing way harder but didn't improve defensively because Jordan wasn't there.
Right. And your the only person in the world that sees that as a knock on Jordan's teammates. And again. How good can Jordan be if you feel his teammates should not miss a beat when he's not there? You refuse to answer this question.



Defense can be affected much more by sheer effort than offense can, which requires true skill and ability.
But neither is more important than the other. Which is a proven fact.


It isn't just me that thinks Bosh and Love are much better than Grant - it's everybody - the NBA, pundits and coaches, since Bosh is a 10-time all-star and all-nba player, and Love is also a multiple time all-star and all-nba.

tbh, there's never been a 10-time all-star that was a 3rd option, but hey, that's the kind of support you can get when you team-hop.
And how many All-Star appearances would both Love and Bosh have if they played in the time Grant played againt the bigs that played then? Come on. Who would they make it over? Mchale? Webber? Barkley? Malone? Kemp? I guarantee they wouldn't be the players they considered today back when Grant played. Qnd Grant would easily be an 18/15 guy if he played today with these garbage stretch bigs.

[3ball]

You're only looking at PPG again, though, while ignoring defense and intangibles. Grant pushed Jordan's shit in on the Magic in '95. Love and Bosh aren't capable of something like that.


Love and Bosh aren't capable of beating a rusty Bulls team with Shaq and Penny getting them wide open shot after wide open shot?... What are you smoking - I want some.

Bosh is a 10-time all-star who made all-nba.. Love is also a multiple time all-star and all-nba player.. Both are good enough to be #1 options.. Grant is an 11/8 play-finisher who isn't good enough to be #1 options... There is no comparison.





You're an insecure stan


I'm just shooting down all of your misperceptions - you complained that I was comparing 2nd option Grant to 1st options, but you forgot that Grant isn't good enough to be a 1st option.





While you fire away at top 8-10'ers, the real threat to the crown has already usurped 'his Airness.'


3 rings and 3 fmvp's usurps 6 rings and 6 fmvp's?

man, that must be some good stuff brah.

Btw, just compare the competition - Jordan sweeps Shaq/Penny in 1996 while averaging 30/5/6, while Lebron's 1 seed loses to Dwight and his Big 3 goes 7 games with Hibbert/George.. There's a reason Lebron has beaten HALF the 50-win teams in his playoff career as Jordan - his competition was simply much worse.





You're deliberately underrating Jordan's surrounding casts to prop him up and attack LeBron/Curry


I'm not downgrading Jordan's supporting cast - I'm explaining WHY the Bulls needed Jordan to be scoring leader for every series of his career (which no other all-time great did) by a ridiculous average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920), AND lead the team in passing (Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats).

This ridiculous goat scoring load and team-leading passing can't happen if Jordan's supporting cast is all-world.. It obviously wasn't, which is why he had the goat scoring load, while also leading his team in passing and being the best defender ever at his position.
.

[3ball]

How good can Jordan be if you feel his teammates should not miss a beat when he's not there? You refuse to answer this question.


:wtf:

The Bulls cratered without Jordan - they fell from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team.

You keep forgetting this.. :oldlol:





Defense and offense have equal importance.


Nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense - so defense is more of a wash among championship teams.

Otoh, there's much more variation in offensive capability among championship teams - it's the OFFENSE that separates the good championship teams from the all-time teams





And how many All-Star appearances would both Love & Bosh have if they played in the time Grant played and against the superior bigs of that time.. Who would they make it over - Mchale? Webber? Barkley? Malone? Kemp? And Grant would easily be an 18/15 guy if he played today with these garbage stretch bigs.


You just made my case - Bosh and Love are better relative to their competition (many all-star selections and also all-nba), than Grant was relative to his competition.

That shows Grant was a far weaker 3rd option than Bosh and Love, who are better relative to their pool of bigs than Grant was.

thanks for strengthening the case for Jordan over Lebron.. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

:wtf:

The Bulls cratered without Jordan - they fell from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team.

You keep forgetting this.. :oldlol:

Lol. You didn't answer my question 3ball. How good can Jordan be if you feel the Bulls should've won a championship without him?


Nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense - so defense is more of a wash among championship teams.
So? Aren't we talking about winning championships here?


Otoh, there's much more variation in offensive capability among championship teams - it's the OFFENSE that separates the good championship teams from the all-time teams
Who cares???? Winning is winning.


You just made my case - Bosh and Love are better relative to their competition (many all-star selections and also all-nba), than Grant was relative to his competition.

That shows Grant was a far weaker 3rd option than Bosh and Love, who are better relative to their pool of bigs than Grant was.

thanks for strengthening the case for Jordan over Lebron.. :cheers:
I never stated that I felt James is better than Jordan. But it's all relative. Put Horace Grant in a situation where he's playing against lesser caliber players, and his stats (since that's what you're so infatuated with) would look a hell of a lot better. Again, he be an 18/15 player with great defense.

Now can you please answer my question. Should the Bulls have won without Jordan????

[3ball]

Put Horace Grant in a situation where he's playing against today's lesser caliber bigs


But he wasn't playing against today's weaker bigs - he was playing against the great bigs of the 90's, which made him weaker relative to his competition than Bosh and Love, who have dominated today's weaker bigs been all-nba.

That shows Grant was a far weaker 3rd option than Bosh and Love, who are better relative to their pool of bigs than Grant was.

Grant was just a play-finisher - he doesn't compare to a deluxe two-way player like Bosh, or a floor-spreader deluxe like Love - those guys are good enough to be 1st options, while Grant is not.





Now can you please answer my question. Should the Bulls have won without Jordan????


Of course not - why would anyone think they should've won without Jordan?... You're so opposed to the facts I've been presenting to you, that you've mind-fucced yourself into thinking the opposite.

[SouBeachTalents]

But he wasn't playing against today's weaker bigs - he was playing against the great bigs of the 90's, which made him weaker relative to his competition than Bosh and Love, who have dominated today's weaker bigs been all-nba.

That shows Grant was a far weaker 3rd option than Bosh and Love, who are better relative to their pool of bigs than Grant was.

Grant was just a play-finisher - he doesn't compare to a deluxe two-way player like Bosh, or a floor-spreader deluxe like Love - those guys are good enough to be 1st options, while Grant is not.



Of course not - why would anyone think they should've won without Jordan?... You're so opposed to the facts I've been presenting to you, that you've mind-fucced yourself into thinking the opposite.

They're good enough to be the first options on teams that go NOWHERE. When it comes to 3rd options, I'd easily take (prime) Rodman over Bosh or Love. What the amazing thing is, you simply don't comprehend Jordan would have been worse off with "scorers" as opposed to Pippen & Grant/Rodman, players who significantly impact the game in other capacities besides scoring

[NBAGOAT]

They're good enough to be the first options on teams that go NOWHERE. When it comes to 3rd options, I'd easily take (prime) Rodman over Bosh or Love. What the amazing thing is, you simply don't comprehend Jordan would have been worse off with "scorers" as opposed to Pippen & Grant/Rodman, players who significantly impact the game in other capacities besides scoring

3ball's basically saying glen rice and derrick coleman>Pippen and Grant or Rodman. It's just obvious how much worse of a situation that would be and those guys stats would fall too because you rarely see 3 guys score 20+ppg on the same team.

[97 bulls]

Of*course not - why would anyone think they should've won without Jordan?... You're so opposed to the facts I've been presenting to you, that you've mind-fucced yourself into thinking the opposite.
So what's the end game here? Your arguments have always led me to believe that the Bulls were failures outside of Jordan. Simply because they didn't score enough for your taste. It just makes no sense. You're conflating style with results. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why. Why would a player leading a team to 55 wins and a second round exit hold more weight if he scores 27 ppg as opposed to a guy scoring 20 ppg and providing great defense?

Would you agree that the Bulls are a very good team without Jordan and a great team with him?

[3ball]

The Bulls would've won the 1990 championship if Pippen didn't choke in Game 7 of ECF (2 points, 1-10, and the famous "migraine" headache excuse).

We know the Bulls would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals, since the Pistons beat Blazers in 5 easy games, but needed 7 tough games and Pippen's choke to beat Bulls.. The gap in ORtg between the Pistons and Blazers was huge, but razor thin between Pistons and Bulls.
.

[3ball]

Would you agree that the Bulls are a very good team without Jordan and a great team with him?


Absolutely not - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've MISSED the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.

So without Jordan, that roster was a lottery roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty..

Essentially, MJ led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.. And btw, the Bulls would've won in 1990, but Pip had epic choke (see previous post).

[97 bulls]

Absolutely not - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've MISSED the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.

So without Jordan, that roster was a lottery roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty..

Essentially, MJ led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.. And btw, the Bulls would've won in 1990, but Pip had epic choke (see previous post).
Lol. Your arguments are so dilusional. The Bulls win it's only because of Jordan. If they lose, its because his teammates suck. You win bro.

[3ball]

The Bulls win it's only because of Jordan. If they lose, its because his teammates suck.


Do you realize how much bigger MJ's scoring load was than anyone in history?.. No all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by an average margin of 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like MJ

So how could MJ have such a ridiculously goat scoring load AND lead the team in passing, if his supporting cast was so great? (MJ led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals during his 6-peat).

The biggest reason the Bulls were 6/6 was because of MJ, which means he's the GOAT by far, since 6/6 is better than anyone else - you should accept that, and then you'll be perceiving things correctly and analyzing basketball better





You win bro.


https://media.giphy.com/media/wMmq6cI9myaDS/giphy.gif