Kobe vs LeBron 2007-08 season

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I've seen both these individual seasons discussed in various threads for the last few weeks, and in particular, debates on who had the better year.

Its actually close. Kobe had more skills and better teammates while LeBron had better production and did more with less.

Here are the regular-season and playoff numbers (most are rounded):

Bron
30/8/7/2/1 on 57%TS
28/8/8/2/1 on 53%TS

Kobe
28/6/5/2/1 on 58%TS
30/6/6/2/>1 on 58%TS

Here are the combined RAPM's for the year (impact, non box-score):

Bron
4.82

Kobe
4.51

Like I said, very close. To me they're practically 1A/B. Garnett had a great individual season that year too, BTW.

[Dray n Klay]

30/8/7 >> 28/6/5


LeBron was better

[Akrazotile]

Lebron's stats tend to have a lot more impact than Kobe's stats which are frequently accrued in garbage time.

Also, even if we do grant their offensive production as similar, Lebron's defensive impact FARRRRRRR exceeds Kobe's, literally every single season of his career.

I mean, quite frankly with stephen a smith, I don't even need to see the stats. I can just tell by looking at their packages. The BODY of work. And Lebron's got a big one.

No homo.

[Bankaii]

A lot of fans brush this year off because Kobe won MVP but everyone that watched this entire season knows this was a very close year.

Stats are pretty close but Bron has the advantage.
In terms of impact Lebron was pretty superior. Look at the roster he carried.

I use to give Kobe the nod because his team went deeper in the playoffs, but looking deeper into it I might change my stance.

[Jacks3]

I have different RAPM numbers.

Kobe: 6.58
LBJ: 6.33


Pretty close, but Kobe was making his impact on one of the strongest non-champions in recent history and on a team that was amazing offensively, while LBJ was doing his thing on a Cavs team that had a -0.53 and was ranked 20th in ORTG. Obviously Kobe had the much better supporting cast, but I also think his game meshed better with other great talent at that point...mainly because he completely destroys that version of LeBron as a shooter and off-ball player. The way Kobe just meshed perfectly with Pau and immediately developed great synergy with him is something that doesn't get talked about enough.

I remember thinking that Bryant was better back then because frankly 08 LBJ had some significant holes in his game. One, he was insanely ball-dominant and had virtually no trace of any type of off-ball game. Two, he was a terrible shooter. 31.5% from three, 30% from 10-16 feet, and 37% from 16-23 feet. I mean, he was just awful. When you have two guys whose primary impact comes overwhelmingly from the offensive side of the ball, yeah, I find it hard to ignore that one of them is awful at perhaps the single most important offensive skill.

[NBAGOAT]

who did you think was better defensively that year?

[BeastMode24]

who did you think was better defensively that year?

kobe was by far the better defender. kobe was on the all nba first team defensively while lebron didn't make the all defense team. Kobe always guarded the opposing team's best player and was the one guy in the starting lineup who was actually considered a good defensive player.

[Micku]

kobe was by far the better defender. kobe was on the all nba first team defensively while lebron didn't make the all defense team. Kobe always guarded the opposing team's best player and was the one guy in the starting lineup who was actually considered a good defensive player.

Being in the all defense team doesn't make you the better defensive player all the time. Tony Allen, Iggy, Wade got snub some years when they were better than Kobe.

With that said, 2000 and 2008 are the years that Kobe might've been his peak defensively imo.

LeBron didn't get great defensively until 2009.

[Suguru101]

I have different RAPM numbers.

Kobe: 6.58
LBJ: 6.33


Pretty close, but Kobe was making his impact on one of the strongest non-champions in recent history and on a team that was amazing offensively, while LBJ was doing his thing on a Cavs team that had a -0.53 and was ranked 20th in ORTG. Obviously Kobe had the much better supporting cast, but I also think his game meshed better with other great talent at that point...mainly because he completely destroys that version of LeBron as a shooter and off-ball player. The way Kobe just meshed perfectly with Pau and immediately developed great synergy with him is something that doesn't get talked about enough.

I remember thinking that Bryant was better back then because frankly 08 LBJ had some significant holes in his game. One, he was insanely ball-dominant and had virtually no trace of any type of off-ball game. Two, he was a terrible shooter. 31.5% from three, 30% from 10-16 feet, and 37% from 16-23 feet. I mean, he was just awful. When you have two guys whose primary impact comes overwhelmingly from the offensive side of the ball, yeah, I find it hard to ignore that one of them is awful at perhaps the single most important offensive skill.

Great post. Kobe had a complete skill-set and was defensively still very good. LeBron, while his driving game and his sheer athleticism made him very effective, had some areas of his that could be exploited by a defense (no post game, not a consistent mid range shooter, bad 3-point shooter).

LeBron was also not that great defensively, he hadn't made the leap he made in 2009 after being on the Olympic team with Kidd and Kobe and learning how to apply himself defensively.

It's a comparison that only makes sense in the numbers... actually having watched the games and knowing the context, Kobe was quite clearly better.

[NBAGOAT]

Being in the all defense team doesn't make you the better defensive player all the time. Tony Allen, Iggy, Wade got snub some years when they were better than Kobe.

With that said, 2000 and 2008 are the years that Kobe might've been his peak defensively imo.

LeBron didn't get great defensively until 2009.

K I was thinking Kobe on defense too but was wondering what kuniva thought. However Lebron always had that versatility by being able to switch onto 4's so that helps. That athleticism didn't hurt either.

[chazzy]

Lebron didn't truly separate from Kobe until the year after when most of the holes in his game were filled. Kobe was better this year

[DMAVS41]

Kobe deserves the nod here.

He had the more polished offensive game and his defense was smarter/better than Lebron's imo.

[Prime_Shaq]

At that point LeBron wasn't totally locked in on the defensive end yet. On the other hand, 2008 Kobe was the most poised I've seen him.

[JohnnyA]

Whats going on here? Reasonable discussion from people with opposing views. Shocking!

I'm a LeBron fan from way back but I definitely give Kobe the nod in that year. LeBron was fun to watch but as noted above, Kobe had the 'poise'.

[ArbitraryWater]

Great post. Kobe had a complete skill-set and was defensively still very good. LeBron, while his driving game and his sheer athleticism made him very effective, had some areas of his that could be exploited by a defense (no post game, not a consistent mid range shooter, bad 3-point shooter).

LeBron was also not that great defensively, he hadn't made the leap he made in 2009 after being on the Olympic team with Kidd and Kobe and learning how to apply himself defensively.

It's a comparison that only makes sense in the numbers... actually having watched the games and knowing the context, Kobe was quite clearly better.

its not that fairy tale-y in rl breh.. he didnt play alongside Kobe and suddenly learned to play defense lol

Cavaliers were 0-7 that year without LeBron

Carried the team more than Kobe did.

Neck to neck man...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

its not that fairy tale-y in rl breh.. he didnt play alongside Kobe and suddenly learned to play defense lol

Cavaliers were 0-7 that year without LeBron

Carried the team more than Kobe did.

Neck to neck man...

This. People just assume it's Kobe because they've convinced themselves that he was the best player in the association at some point...and since LeBron took over right after in 2009 they think it's 2008.

I bet if this poll were taken in 2008 it would be close to 50/50.

[Suguru101]

its not that fairy tale-y in rl breh.. he didnt play alongside Kobe and suddenly learned to play defense lol

Cavaliers were 0-7 that year without LeBron

Carried the team more than Kobe did.

Neck to neck man...

I said "applied himself defensively", not hat he learned how to play defense. LeBron talked about it during season interviews during 2009, how he started taking pride on the defensive side and started applying much more effort after having talks with and seeing Kidd and Kobe during the Olympics.

Cleveland was 0-7 without LeBron because if you take out LeBron, the team was garbage. That doesn't make LeBron automatically better than Kobe.

I watched those games, i've been a fan of LeBron since 06. He had flaws in his game in 08 with a lack of post game, lack of good footwork, lack of mid-range shooting and lack of consistent 3-point shooting that made him incomplete offensively, and thus exploitable by an elite NBA defense.

Did you see the first 3 games of the 2013 NBA Finals? LeBron averaged like 18 points because the Spurs gave him a few feet of cushion and dared him to shoot. He had to start making this shots consistently to be able to beat them, and he only won the 2012 Finals because he abused the Thunder with his post game. THAT LeBron is better than any version of Kobe. 08 LeBron? He wouldn't have won those two Finals. He had flaws. Stop being so biased that you can't admit it. I watched those games, i followed that season, so stop relying on only numbers to answer this question.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hey, I agreee with you for the most part, the Olympic nature and star studded cast made him pay more attention to detail..

Thing is, LeBron's ALWAYW found ways to score, even with all those flaws.. this year, as you mentioned 2012, and in '08 he had more of a bullish, strong/fast rim attack out of the half court than now.. just that gifted.

Did he struggle with it against the #1 defense in the NBA? Yes, but so has and did Kobe, ALWAYS... So it's closer than you think, or closer than I used to think.

I'll come back later.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

K I was thinking Kobe on defense too but was wondering what kuniva thought. However Lebron always had that versatility by being able to switch onto 4's so that helps. That athleticism didn't hurt either.

I think LeBron's chase down block became a huge staple in his game, but like others mentioned, his man defense wasn't as great as the following year where he honed his skills during the summer Olympics.

Having said that, Kobe was still a net negative on defense in 2008. He was the better man defender BUT took a lot of plays off to focus on scoring and up his offensive averages. LeBron was a net plus and gave you more effort on that end despite the lack of skills if you will.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2008-rapm/

This is probably the ONLY website with legit RAPM (sites.google.com/site/rapmstats has too many errors as the author mentioned). SWaGR is also cool because it accounts for games played, and since Kobe made the finals, he computed the highest numbers.

[Prime_Shaq]

Hey, I agreee with you for the most part, the Olympic nature and star studded cast made him pay more attention to detail..

Thing is, LeBron's ALWAYW found ways to score, even with all those flaws.. this year, as you mentioned 2012, and in '08 he had more of a bullish, strong/fast rim attack out of the half court than now.. just that gifted.

Did he struggle with it against the #1 defense in the NBA? Yes, but so has and did Kobe, ALWAYS... So it's closer than you think, or closer than I used to think.

I'll come back later.
I actually miss that LeBron man, he was a man on a mission getting to the rim. Was so quick and agile.

[Just2McFly]

Kobe.

[plowking]

lol Kobe was better.

[Indian guy]

2008 is LeBron's physical peak. Just an insane athlete with an even more insane motor. He was relentless with his playmaking. Always on the attack. That's how you lead the league in scoring on impressive efficiency with a jumper that limited. The latter is the key though. The truly great defenses could limit LeBron back in 2008, because he was still so dependent on getting inside in order to score. You couldn't really do that with 2008 Kobe. You just hoped he missed. LeBron didn't really surpass him until the following season, when his jumper reached respectability and his skills/approach to the game also became more portable. It's a shame what awful teams he was on during his first Cleveland stint though. Watching quite a few 2008 Cavaliers games lately, that LeBron would've absolutely won championships with most of the rosters he's been on post-Decision. And something like the 2011 Finals would never happen to the 2008 version. He was too much of a freak to ever be passive.

[ArbitraryWater]

2008 is LeBron's physical peak. Just an insane athlete with an even more insane motor. He was relentless with his playmaking. Always on the attack. That's how you lead the league in scoring on impressive efficiency with a jumper that limited. The latter is the key though. The truly great defenses could limit LeBron back in 2008, because he was still so dependent on getting inside in order to score. You couldn't really do that with 2008 Kobe. You just hoped he missed. LeBron didn't really surpass him until the following season, when his jumper reached respectability and his skills/approach to the game also became more portable. It's a shame what awful teams he was on during his first Cleveland stint though. Watching quite a few 2008 Cavaliers games lately, that LeBron would've absolutely won championships with most of the rosters he's been on post-Decision. And something like the 2011 Finals would never happen to the 2008 version. He was too much of a freak to ever be passive.


This is such a good point... also, the youth aspect... being young, it can just really make you play carefree, in a good sense...

does anyone really see '09 Bron or '03 Dirk choke if they make the finals?

They did choke later, at more mature, thoughtful points of their careers.... 2011 Bron had mental deficiencies and that was with him to that point, but does that mean he would have choked earlier, '09 or '08? Probably not... he did show it in 2011 though.

Plus, the earlier you get that out of the way, the sooner you are more tolerant for those moments.... its a learning experience.

Its like with a still young KD in 2012.... didnt think too much, just went out there and balled.... clutch af. Now hes too conscious, the fear of missing, the thought of missing, is too much in his head, ala LeBron in 2011.

But in 2008, 2009? Just a freak... missed everything through 4 games and then obliterated the Celtics defense in game 7 on the road...

[ArbitraryWater]

Here are the combined RAPM's for the year (impact, non box-score):

Bron
4.82

Kobe
4.51


I have different RAPM numbers.

Kobe: 6.58
LBJ: 6.33


I have different ones:

Bron: 6.2
Kobe: 6.1