Video on 3 aspects of basketball I feel have been overly critized lately.

[Kblaze8855]

Mostly by people who are for whatever reason obsessed with quantifying greatness and trying to put together a formula for winning....that to me....leaves out a lot of necessary ingredients. Ive chosen to make my point partly by reviving a video series from a decade ago that I'm nearly 100% sure you wont remember

https://youtu.be/uJhU1JNEBd4



F*ck fundamentals 6.

Watch it when you have a few minutes...this whole rambling post will make more sense. I cut it from what would have been 20 minutes to something much more reasonable.

Is the vulgarity required? Id say yes for two reasons. One...its always been a somewhat humor based series of videos...and secondly...

Seriously....**** fundamentals.

Well not so much far as what they really are....but for what the modern idea of them are.

The basics of the game are a lot more than proper bounce passes....only shooting when open....making your FTs...playing clean and winning the "right" way.


So many games and titles have been won by people who specialize in often questionable shots it hard for me to grasp peoples obsession with players who dont take them.

In our relentless search for efficiency we have marganilized what may be the most important aspect of a go to scorers skillset.....the ability and willingness to make something out of nothing. To break the offense and just....go at someone. At a couple someones.

Every now and then a team with impeccable ball movement comes along and we as a fanbase emit synchronized manswoons to clips of plays with 11 passes resulting in an open jumper or layup. And that team will win now and then. The spurs did a couple years ago. It does happen....and I love tosee it. Oddly enough I'm working on a video on exactly that subject and ill make that topic when enough time has passed for you to forget my hypocrisy.

But the usual? Some guy who is willing and capable to just go rogue and take scumbag shots wins the title. You need that guy.

You need Kyrie to see nobody can make a shot so he needs to go one on one and take a terrible pullup/fadeaway 3 to win the title.

You need Steph to get his shit together and start abusing Delly with insideout crossovers and stepbacks while his team looks on barely more involved in the play than we are.

But we get so annoyed with some guys who make it their go to style of play because so often they end up with the 1 or 2 extra misses in 20 that makes them *insert gasp* inefficient.

Gotta whisper when talking in a positive way about people unconcerned with their efficiency.

Never mind that guys like Russell Westbrook have had as much success as 80% of the hall of fame and legendary points considered "pure". We keep connecting efficiency to success in our heads as if we dont have history books showing us all these guys losing at about the same rate.

I swear in like 4 years....Damian Lillard will win a finals MVP with 29ppg on 40% shooting and people are still gonna act like the team would have been better if he let someone else miss the extra couple shots a night as they win a title in 6 games.

Long story short...when shit gets real...when great teams go at it....you need a scumbag ready and able to dribble 11 seconds and shoot a heathenous pullup jumper. Sometimes.....its just the smart play....even if its a "dumb" shot.

Related.....we gotta stop calling everyone with wild shot selection stupid. Ever hear Jamal Crawford or Kyrie Irving talk about basketball? These are not idiots. They just....take shots we were raised to consider stupid. But one just won a ring by taking one so.....maybe we can let it go for a while?

[NBAGOAT]

pretty good point. Personally, I really only get mad when someone takes scumbag shots like he's in heat check mode when it's pretty obvious it's just not his night. Kind of agree about needing to take over but a lot of the good teams now have multiple guys who can take over. Ik for example people were pissed at steph in the 4th of game 7 when everyone knew Draymond was on fire(not the best example since Draymond isn't a takeover guy). One other thing I'll say is coaches usually deserve more blame for those iso plays that end up looking bad, it's usually just the player who gets shit on.

[Kblaze8855]

Second two issues ill roll together. The perception that skilled players are automatically more valuable/worthy of respect than people who lean on their physical gifts.....and the need for physicality in the game.

I chose Deandre to highlight the first issue. How often do you see Deandre, Drummond, Dwight, or someone like that brick the hell outta two free throws and hear a discussion on how they need to learn to shoot....or GTFO?

As if the perceived lack of skill makes them worthless as players. Ignoring for a moment that all of them shoot decently in an empty gym which takes it from a skill issue to a mental one....

The idea that the Hack-a-Shaq players aren't worth a damn kinda bugs me.

Do I like seeing Deandre go 9-26 from the FT line on national Tv? No. Does the other team like seeing him when they try to get to the basket? No. Does he somehow...get open on a huge number of pick and rolls? Yes. Is he maybe the #1 provider in our league in "Jesus Christ...." finishes around the basket? He is.

Plenty of amazing athletes dont put up like 12/15 block the hell outta some shots and shoot 70%(you would figure the efficiency hounds would be pleased there....but they factor in his FTs to disregard it). Is missing 5 free throws in 10 really worth the scorn heaped on these dudes?

Fans boo partly because it seems so simple...a guy making millions should be able to do it. But they dont boo when their great scoring wing gets blown by and the "scrub" rotates to stop his man. You need all kinds....even kinds who cant make a FT....they wouldn't be on the floor long enough for it to matter if they didn't have a lot more going for them. Its a physical game....physical talent is nothing to be ashamed of. Even if its the only thing you can really lean on.

Also....

This idea that playing physical/bruising/aggressive ball is somehow less desirable than "clean" ball kinda bugs me.

We wonder why everyone is so buddy buddy....where the intensity and drive to beat everyone else went?

When the other team will just:





https://fat.gfycat.com/LankyOrdinaryCuckoo.gif




slap you in the face with your kids sitting courtside...you dont like those dudes. You dont WANT to play with them. You want to make them suffer.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm gonna repost something I said about the Green suspension a while back:



The stage....1981 eastern conference finals. Upstart contenders...Boston Celtics...on the road against 2 time conference champion 76ers. Heated series. Fights already...hard fouls. Teams hate eachother. Its generally considered the best series ever played. Only 2 of the 7 games were not decided by the final play. So...its tough...its close.

Cedric Maxwell....bit of an agitator like Draymond and also a noted jerk who once said:




Quote:

"You know what I like to do in the offseason? I like to get in my big, fancy car, drive around to construction sites, and watch guys work. Then I roll down the window and say, 'Guess what boys? I got nothing to do today.'"


Generally known to be a pest and a bit of a dick. Anyway....

He takes out a 76er with a wild elbow going for a rebound. He is shoved by everyones favorite uncle Darryl Dawkins....he bumps a fan when hes shoved. The fan had something to say. This is how that went:





















https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BountifulAccomplishedAlaskankleekai-size_restricted.gif





He goes into the stands to fight the fan. Other fans get in shots. Chaos ensues. And then what?


Hes ejected of course...and suspended for the playoffs....and all of next season too. Right?

Wrong.

Not only is he not suspended....hes not even ejected. He went on to have 17 in the 2 point win and 19 in the 1 point game 7 win....before getting finals MVP the next series.

Thats the game I was raised watching. A series....a great series....was expected to be physical. It wasnt just basketball...it was willpower. Toughness. Seeing who was man enough to walk away with the W.

I'll leave it at that and hope you can figure out what I think about the whole thing.


We added offense with the rules changes...the game is safer....bu the will to win? It really has declined. It isn't gone. You could see Lebrons will to win in games 5-6-7. But that shit talking taking it personal approach....that was from pretty much EVERY good team when I was coming up....every series.

Pistons/Celtics? Hate. Lakers/Celtics? Hate. Bulls/Pistons? Bulls/Bucks? Celtics/Bucks? All hate. Celtics/Hawks Lakers/Pistons at least a bit of animosity Magic and Isiah kissing aside. Celtics/76ers? Call the ****ing police. Went into othe 90s. The Bulls/Knicks hated eachother. So did the Pacers/Bulls.....the Pacers and knicks. Heat and Pistons....Heat and Knicks go without saying.

You cant overstate how much drive that gave those guys....or the impact on fanbases.

Dude comes off the bench and clips Jordan midair.....Chicago is ready to march on Detroit and storm the arena.

The series now....you get excited to see a little anger. TO see a pest like Draymond get his guys hyped...to see a shove or two....nobody back down.

But its not the norm anymore.

Call it nostalgia if you must....but hate makes for great TV. Remember the Kings/Lakers brawl? The shit talk after the game? Teams just....want it more under those circumstances.

And we lost a lot of that trying to clean the game up. I'm sad to see it go. I dont need flagrant fouls. But I miss the intensity

[AintNoSunshine]

I'm interested but can i get a cliffnote?

[Nilocon165]

Meltdown.














Just kidding it's nice to have actual basketball discussion but I ain't readin that sheeet

[NBAGOAT]

it's just way too hard in today's age. No one in the NBA wants to see Malice in the Palace 2 even if it was memorable as hell. Pretty sure fighting is way down in hockey too when that's one of the trademarks of the sport.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm interested but can i get a cliffnote?


Come click this on your phone next time youre in the bathroom.

https://youtu.be/uJhU1JNEBd4

Same point....10,000 less characters to explain it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Pretty good timing on this. We just saw a team that "played the right way" with impeccable ball movement/getting everyone involved/winning 73 games lose to a team that would dribble the ball to 10 seconds left on the shot clock, set a pick, get a switch and isolate pretty much every time down the floor. Too often people confuse pretty basketball with effective basketball.

Btw, I agree Draymond's suspension was weak, but would you be okay with someone beating up a fan and not getting suspended much less ejected? I think there is a middle ground.

[Kblaze8855]

it's just way too hard in today's age. No one in the NBA wants to see Malice in the Palace 2 even if it was memorable as hell. Pretty sure fighting is way down in hockey too when that's one of the trademarks of the sport.


Not so much the fighting....as the general physical nature of the game which I'm positive led to more heated rivalries. It was just a better product to watch in my eyes....

Teams take it personal....they want to win for more than basketball. The physical side of it had a lot to do with that.

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty good timing on this. We just saw a team that "played the right way" with impeccable ball movement/getting everyone involved/winning 73 games lose to a team that would dribble the ball to 10 seconds left on the shot clock, set a pick, get a switch and isolate pretty much every time down the floor. Too often people confuse pretty basketball with effective basketball.

Btw, I agree Draymond's suspension was weak, but would you be okay with someone beating up a fan and not getting suspended much less ejected? I think there is a middle ground.


Case by case. I understand why the league had to crack down...they had an image problem. Its about money first of all...appearances..which is why NBA cares came out after the Artest incident.

So I'm not arguing the business side doesn't make sense....im saying....the desire to win that comes with a more physical game makes for a better product to me. Granted.....by the late 90s and early 2000s it was offset by the greater emphasis on defense and a generation of coaches trying to play like the slow it down teams that had success for a while. Nobody wants to see 54 points scored in a finals game like the Jazz had in 98.

There is room for a middle ground....but nobody is looking for it. They are going more and more away from the physical side of the game...and to me...its not for the best. Not when it comes to the competition.

[Doranku]

LMAO what is the context of Hakeem sucker punching that guy on the Jazz out of nowhere at the end of the first video? :roll:

[DMAVS41]

You need Kyrie to see nobody can make a shot so he needs to go one on one and take a terrible pullup/fadeaway 3 to win the title.

I agree, more or less, with your overall point...

But the Kyrie play was not that at all. It was a called play. That is what the Cavs wanted. They had JR set the screen on Thompson to get Curry guarding Kyrie and then wanted Kyrie to go 1 on 1...and they wanted Kyrie to shoot. They didn't want him driving to set up somebody else unless it was a dunk. They gave it to their best one on one player against a favorable match up by design.

And Kyrie going 1 on 1 there doing his thing...that isn't a terrible shot. It is for a lot of even NBA players, but that absolutely is not a terrible shot in rhythm dancing with Curry on him pretty much incapable of a really challenge or real bother.

It went exactly as called/designed...that was not Kyrie saying "**** it" give me the ball. Lue wanted exactly what happened.

The problem...and I agree with your overall point about go to scorers having that "ability to make something out of nothing"...is that there just aren't that many guys that can do it consistently enough to actually want them doing it. Guys like Kyrie? Yea. Others? Not so much...

So it depends on the player in question. Some scorers are great, but you wouldn't want them trying those "make something out of nothing" shots very often.

[Kblaze8855]

Dude was baiting Hakeem really. He was a bit of an agitator. Here you go:





One punch. A single shot taken to the head. Considering all the things Billy Paultz achieved during his career, it seems strange that a single misplaced act of violence against him would become his legacy.

And the big 3-2 pitch coming here from Eckersley. Gibson swings. And a fly ball deep to right field. This is going to be a home run!!! Unbelievable!!! A home run for Gibson! And the Dodgers have won the game 5-4, I don't believe what I just saw. —Jack Buck, describing Kurt Gibson in the 1988 World Series

There are instances in any athlete's career that will always stand out in the minds of both the player and the fans. The act may not be so unusual, but the results that follow stand out for years to come. Babe Ruth during the World Series, extending his finger to the outfield wall, calling his shot, and then blasting a home run that has been talked about ever since. Christian Laettner catching, turning and hitting the three-pointer at the buzzer to beat Kentucky in the 1992 NCAA Semifinals.

Former Jazzman Billy Paultz has just such a moment. No buzzer beater, no last-second heroics, no miracle finish. Yet what he did holds a place of highest regards in the minds of Jazz fans everywhere. What Billy did was take a punch.

"If that's what it takes to gain an advantage, I was more than willing to do it," says Paultz happily.

April 28, 1985. The Jazz trail the Houston Rockets late in the fifth and deciding game of the first round of the playoffs. Coach Frank Layden has pulled his starters in hopes that the bench can somehow spark the team, and inch back into the game. Billy Paultz has been given the unenviable task of guarding Hakeem Olajuwon, The next few minutes drag on for Olajuwon, as the aging veteran Paultz continues to frustrate and annoy the Houston center. Every shot is contested. Every foul is a hard one. All rebounds seem to go in the Jazz's direction. Finally, something pushes Hakeem too far and he snaps. With Paultz turned away from him, he lands a wicked right cross to Billy's face. Paultz staggers from the blow but doesn't go down. Olajuwon expects retaliation, but it doesn't come. Instead Paultz quickly shakes his head and jogs down court to set up offensively.

"Hey, if I did to you what I did to him, you'd punch me too," winks Paultz. "I kept distracting him in the most annoying ways. The refs didn't see it, but it sure bugged him!"

Assistant coach Jerry Sloan and teammate Thurl Bailey pleaded Billy's case to the referees, but to Paultz it didn't matter. He had won. Olajuwon's sucker punch ignited the Jazz, and took the heart out of the Rockets and the spirit from their fans. "They deflated like a balloon," laughs Paultz.

Billy himself pulled down five boards to out-rebound the entire Houston team in the fourth quarter. He also added six points and four important fouls — fouls for which the Rockets only converted one free throw. The Jazz were going to the second round.

Game, set, match: Billy Paultz.

[NBAGOAT]

Not so much the fighting....as the general physical nature of the game which I'm positive led to more heated rivalries. It was just a better product to watch in my eyes....

Teams take it personal....they want to win for more than basketball. The physical side of it had a lot to do with that.

I get it but one of the big ways the NBA tries to cut down the fighting is being strict on flagrants. It's kind of hard to keep physical play while cutting down on incidents.

[Kblaze8855]

It went exactly as called/designed...that was not Kyrie saying "**** it" give me the ball. Lue wanted exactly what happened.

Your point kinda rolls into this:



One other thing I'll say is coaches usually deserve more blame for those iso plays that end up looking bad, it's usually just the player who gets shit on.


Which is a point ive made before but it rarely seem to be understood.

I remember watching Westbrook come down and Brooks was not so much calling a play as....telling him to attack. He attacks...misses....people get mad at him.

It really is often by design...but it looks out of control. And some guys like Kyrie...Joe Johnson...Harden at times? They tend to take that extra dribble or two where you start getting uncomfortable. A play being designed to get a favorable matchup doesn't always mean you pound the ball till you get a shot no matter what.

Iso Joe especially is bad about that. I was watching the Heat/Celtics with some friends one night and he had us looking like Avon on the wire:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrimPitifulHammerheadbird-size_restricted.gif


"That's not how the game is played!"

But then the shot goes in and you order a cool glass of shut the **** up.

[pauk]

https://youtu.be/uJhU1JNEBd4


Kobe at 2:03, dont remember seeing that one. :roll: I will ***ing miss him.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobeselfish.jpg

[plowking]

Do you start arguments with yourself?

No one has a problem with 1 on 1 play where the guy dribbles forever and gets the shot he wants. People have problems with guys with tunnel vision; guys who do the previously mentioned, and as the play naturally develops, a guy will get open, but they will still fail to pass.

And your opinion on the Green incident... :oldlol:
Furthermore, your reasoning with the Cedric Maxwell thing... :oldlol:
There is such a thing as "tough" basketball as you described, and flat out dirty, out of control, and downright illegal. Assaulting someone is not considered tough, or hard basketball. It isn't part of the game.

[G-train]

I hate people getting punched when they aint looking.

[NBAGOAT]

Kobe at 2:03, dont remember seeing that one. :roll: I will ***ing miss him.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobeselfish.jpg

:lol :oldlol:

[G-train]

Yer you need tough shot makers.

It can be a thin line at times between the Hardens/Kyries/Lillards and the Louie Williams/Nick Youngs though.

The elite ones are usually bringing more overall, in terms of playmaking or other areas.

[Kblaze8855]

Do you start arguments with yourself?

No one has a problem with 1 on 1 play where the guy dribbles forever and gets the shot he wants. People have problems with guys with tunnel vision; guys who do the previously mentioned, and as the play naturally develops, a guy will get open, but they will still fail to pass.

And your opinion on the Green incident... :oldlol:
Furthermore, your reasoning with the Cedric Maxwell thing... :oldlol:
There is such a thing as "tough" basketball as you described, and flat out dirty, out of control, and downright illegal. Assaulting someone is not considered tough, or hard basketball. It isn't part of the game.


considered by whom? once we start going into who thinks what it's clearly case-by-case. legendary coaches have employed goons for the express purpose of taking people out so whether or not it's in a book of rules doesn't really determine if the game includes it.

[Im Still Ballin]

I haven't read much in this thread, but I know what this is about

You want it boiled down why the Cavs brand of basketball won it all?

1. Playoffs: Referee interpretations and leniences change, perimeter contact, off-ball contact, general overall physicality increases... Handchecking is 100% legal in the playoffs, like how zones were outlawed pre 2001, but teams would still get away with it, especially in the playoffs (George Karl's Sonics)

You add this increase in defensive physicality, and it tightens the clamps on passing lanes, off-ball movement, PnR actions, etc.. Playing fast and loose in the playoffs is just asking for turnovers to happen.

It's really as simple as that... It's something we all know.. Talent is magnified in the playoffs... This is the time when the superstars take over.. Defenses teeth are sharper, and Ref whistles are less active... Fast and loose ball movement that would fly in the regular season is asking for turnovers in the playoffs..

This is where the "shot-creator" shines. This is why I picked OKC to beat SAS in 6, and why I thought they'd be the best shot against GSW... They showed the method to beat them, and Cleveland was able to replicate that, abet with much more poise and control... OKC might have had more volatile explosive power against GSW, but they was just as erratic, whereas Cleveland were poised under the guidance of LeBron who always keeps the game under control

Really, what this season should remind us is... Talent is the most important factor. Always has been, always will be. You need fit, but a great fit is limited without the talent.

[DMAVS41]

Yer you need tough shot makers.

It can be a thin line at times between the Hardens/Kyries/Lillards and the Louie Williams/Nick Youngs though.

The elite ones are usually bringing more overall, in terms of playmaking or other areas.

Yep.

And they are just better and more consistent tough shot makers.

In the end...efficiency matters. I think sometimes the confusion can be that idea gets conflated with always taking the efficient shot.

Obviously basketball doesn't work that way. You can't always get the efficient shot...so you need a tough shot maker that sees that and takes the ball and finds a way. Of course that is hugely important, but you have to be efficient enough in those inefficient shots.

You don't want Nick Young out there taking bail out shots consistently because he's not efficient enough at them.

A guy like Kyrie that goes 1 on 1 a lot...it actually makes sense...you live with it at times...and want it at times...because he makes enough and does enough to make it work.

[plowking]

considered by whom? once we start going into who thinks what it's clearly case-by-case. legendary coaches have employed goons for the express purpose of taking people out so whether or not it's in a book of rules doesn't really determine if the game includes it.

Fouling a guy hard, making the game hard on him, pulling him down, etc is all cool. Some of these deserve flagrants, or techs, and that is part of the game.

Sucker punching, or just punching someone is completely different. It might be considered tough by you, but it isn't basketball. There is nothing to it. Anyone can sucker punch guys. They can hire guys off the street for that.

[DMAVS41]

I haven't read much in this thread, but I know what this is about

You want it boiled down why the Cavs brand of basketball won it all?

1. Playoffs: Referee interpretations and leniences change, perimeter contact, off-ball contact, general overall physicality increases... Handchecking is 100% legal in the playoffs, like how zones were outlawed pre 2001, but teams would still get away with it, especially in the playoffs (George Karl's Sonics)

You add this increase in defensive physicality, and it tightens the clamps on passing lanes, off-ball movement, PnR actions, etc.. Playing fast and loose in the playoffs is just asking for turnovers to happen.

It's really as simple as that... It's something we all know.. Talent is magnified in the playoffs... This is the time when the superstars take over.. Defenses teeth are sharper, and Ref whistles are less active... Fast and loose ball movement that would fly in the regular season is asking for turnovers in the playoffs..

This is where the "shot-creator" shines. This is why I picked OKC to beat SAS in 6, and why I thought they'd be the best shot against GSW... They showed the method to beat them, and Cleveland was able to replicate that, abet with much more poise and control... OKC might have had more volatile explosive power against GSW, but they was just as erratic, whereas Cleveland were poised under the guidance of LeBron who always keeps the game under control

Really, what this season should remind us is... Talent is the most important factor. Always has been, always will be. You need fit, but a great fit is limited without the talent.

Can't disagree much with this.

It's why I put so much emphasis on playoff play for individual players. It's often almost a different game. The rules legit change...

[Im Still Ballin]

Also, to me the Cavs despite playing your turn my turn basketball... They played the right way.. As in they took what the Golden State defense gave them.. That means those long twos, that the analytically minded GSW always ignored

That and they lack a real inside scoring presence

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I haven't read much in this thread, but I know what this is about

You want it boiled down why the Cavs brand of basketball won it all?

1. Playoffs: Referee interpretations and leniences change, perimeter contact, off-ball contact, general overall physicality increases... Handchecking is 100% legal in the playoffs, like how zones were outlawed pre 2001, but teams would still get away with it, especially in the playoffs (George Karl's Sonics)

You add this increase in defensive physicality, and it tightens the clamps on passing lanes, off-ball movement, PnR actions, etc.. Playing fast and loose in the playoffs is just asking for turnovers to happen.

It's really as simple as that... It's something we all know.. Talent is magnified in the playoffs... This is the time when the superstars take over.. Defenses teeth are sharper, and Ref whistles are less active... Fast and loose ball movement that would fly in the regular season is asking for turnovers in the playoffs..

This is where the "shot-creator" shines. This is why I picked OKC to beat SAS in 6, and why I thought they'd be the best shot against GSW... They showed the method to beat them, and Cleveland was able to replicate that, abet with much more poise and control... OKC might have had more volatile explosive power against GSW, but they was just as erratic, whereas Cleveland were poised under the guidance of LeBron who always keeps the game under control

Really, what this season should remind us is... Talent is the most important factor. Always has been, always will be. You need fit, but a great fit is limited without the talent.

Great post :applause:

[Im Still Ballin]

Can't disagree much with this.

It's why I put so much emphasis on playoff play for individual players. It's often almost a different game. The rules legit change...
And you also called it about LeBron and the jump shot

The series changed as soon as he started to react to what the defense gave him.. Even if he only made 40% of those shots, it changes so much

[DMAVS41]

And you also called it about LeBron and the jump shot

The series changed as soon as he started to react to what the defense gave him.. Even if he only made 40% of those shots, it changes so much

Well, I called that he needed to trust his jump shot more, but I honestly didn't give the Cavs much of a chance after game 4. Thought it was for sure over....so pretty wrong in the end.

[jstern]

This was talked about a little during last years Finals when Lebron couldn't take over the last minutes, due to fatigue and not having the iso game of a Jordan.

I'm too tired right now, but other than those final minutes when you need to create something out of nothing, a guy like Lebron that gets everybody involved is just going to get a team further than a star that goes one on one and dribbles and dribbles, takes a forced shot that goes in some of the time. It's just going to take his teammates out of the game.

I love Jordan's game. He just creates a shot so quickly and efficiently, which takes away from the teammates having to watch a guy dribbling and dribbling.

[jstern]

You need Kyrie to see nobody can make a shot so he needs to go one on one and take a terrible pullup/fadeaway 3 to win the title.

I agree, more or less, with your overall point...

But the Kyrie play was not that at all. It was a called play. That is what the Cavs wanted. They had JR set the screen on Thompson to get Curry guarding Kyrie and then wanted Kyrie to go 1 on 1...and they wanted Kyrie to shoot. They didn't want him driving to set up somebody else unless it was a dunk. They gave it to their best one on one player against a favorable match up by design.

And Kyrie going 1 on 1 there doing his thing...that isn't a terrible shot. It is for a lot of even NBA players, but that absolutely is not a terrible shot in rhythm dancing with Curry on him pretty much incapable of a really challenge or real bother.

It went exactly as called/designed...that was not Kyrie saying "**** it" give me the ball. Lue wanted exactly what happened.

The problem...and I agree with your overall point about go to scorers having that "ability to make something out of nothing"...is that there just aren't that many guys that can do it consistently enough to actually want them doing it. Guys like Kyrie? Yea. Others? Not so much...

So it depends on the player in question. Some scorers are great, but you wouldn't want them trying those "make something out of nothing" shots very often.

I have to disagree a little in that yes getting Curry to guard Irving was all by design, but that's where it ends. It was fascinating hearing Irving talk about the things running through his mind, which in turn made him decide to take a three at that moment, rather than driving. He thought about past Finals, and how often time a big 3 sealed the deal, how no body had scored in minutes, how he missed the rim on a previous shot, how Curry missed the rim on one of the previous plays. And all that led him to decide to take a 3 pointer. What I liked about it was the calm analyzing of the situation in his mind, which reminds me of the calm analyzing in the mind of Jordan during his last shot with the Bulls. Rather than the adrenaline filled shots that I saw Kobe take in the 2010 Finals, and that many other players take.

[DMAVS41]

I have to disagree a little in that yes getting Curry to guard Irving was all by design, but that's where it ends. It was fascinating hearing Irving talk about the things running through his mind, which in turn made him decide to take a three at that moment, rather than driving. He thought about past Finals, and how often time a big 3 sealed the deal, how no body had scored in minutes, how he missed the rim on a previous shot, how Curry missed the rim on one of the previous plays. And all that led him to decide to take a 3 pointer. What I liked about it was the calm analyzing of the situation in his mind, which reminds me of the calm analyzing in the mind of Jordan during his last shot with the Bulls. Rather than the adrenaline filled shots that I saw Kobe take in the 2010 Finals, and that many other players take.

I think you misunderstood my point.

My point entails all of that. That getting Kyrie 1 on 1...and letting him just flow...was by design.

I wasn't saying that Lue told him to take the 3 specifically.

I was just saying that it wasn't Kyrie saying "**** it"....give me the ball. His coach and team wanted him to have the ball...and let him go....and they are good with the results.

[jstern]

I think you misunderstood my point.

My point entails all of that. That getting Kyrie 1 on 1...and letting him just flow...was by design.

I wasn't saying that Lue told him to take the 3 specifically.

I was just saying that it wasn't Kyrie saying "**** it"....give me the ball. His coach and team wanted him to have the ball...and let him go....and they are good with the results.

Oh ok. I'm just tired, for some reason I thought maybe you meant Lue wanted a 3.

[houston]

Yea man I agree with the premise of the thread what Kyrie did to Curry is the same how Tony Parker did to Nash in their playoff series. Heck Parker did the same stuff for the Spurs in the 07 Finals.

LOL @ people overhyping the 2014 Spurs ball movement never mind the fact it based of of Tony Parker penetration to the rim. He was the Spurs best player that season.

[kshutts1]

I have to disagree a little in that yes getting Curry to guard Irving was all by design, but that's where it ends. It was fascinating hearing Irving talk about the things running through his mind, which in turn made him decide to take a three at that moment, rather than driving. He thought about past Finals, and how often time a big 3 sealed the deal, how no body had scored in minutes, how he missed the rim on a previous shot, how Curry missed the rim on one of the previous plays. And all that led him to decide to take a 3 pointer. What I liked about it was the calm analyzing of the situation in his mind, which reminds me of the calm analyzing in the mind of Jordan during his last shot with the Bulls. Rather than the adrenaline filled shots that I saw Kobe take in the 2010 Finals, and that many other players take.
Come on, man... what evidence do you have that Kobe or others didn't analyze the situation? Just seems like a "hate-filled" unnecessary name drop.

Kobe's one of the more intelligent players to ever play. I really doubt that too many of his shots were "adrenaline filled" over being "analyzed". You just may disagree with his analytical skills :lol

[kshutts1]

And responding to the OP...

It's natural that more physical play leads to more passion and emotion and rivalries, etc.

But more passion and emotion and rivalries also lead to more dirty plays and injuries and bad PR.

Really difficult line to walk. I do wish, though, that the NBA and its refs could do a better job recognizing intent in situations, rather than looking at the black-and-white physical data, so to speak.

Not a good example, as they're pretty ridiculous situations, but the difference I'm shooting for is essentially...

Player X grabs a rebound, holds it high, feels an opponent, Player Y, trying to swipe at the ball, and X swings around a bit to protect it. Player Y catches an elbow on the chin. Goes down.
vs
Player X purposefully goes near Player Y and finds a reason to elbow him "in the flow of the game".

In both cases, Player X means to throw around his elbows, but in one case his mind is like "good luck getting in through this whirlwind of elbows, sucks if you catch one" but the other one is "I intend to hit you with my elbow, and hurt you".

[tpols]

I'm gonna repost something I said about the Green suspension a while back:





We added offense with the rules changes...the game is safer....bu the will to win? It really has declined. It isn't gone. You could see Lebrons will to win in games 5-6-7. But that shit talking taking it personal approach....that was from pretty much EVERY good team when I was coming up....every series.

Pistons/Celtics? Hate. Lakers/Celtics? Hate. Bulls/Pistons? Bulls/Bucks? Celtics/Bucks? All hate. Celtics/Hawks Lakers/Pistons at least a bit of animosity Magic and Isiah kissing aside. Celtics/76ers? Call the ****ing police. Went into othe 90s. The Bulls/Knicks hated eachother. So did the Pacers/Bulls.....the Pacers and knicks. Heat and Pistons....Heat and Knicks go without saying.

You cant overstate how much drive that gave those guys....or the impact on fanbases.

Dude comes off the bench and clips Jordan midair.....Chicago is ready to march on Detroit and storm the arena.

The series now....you get excited to see a little anger. TO see a pest like Draymond get his guys hyped...to see a shove or two....nobody back down.

But its not the norm anymore.

Call it nostalgia if you must....but hate makes for great TV. Remember the Kings/Lakers brawl? The shit talk after the game? Teams just....want it more under those circumstances.

And we lost a lot of that trying to clean the game up. I'm sad to see it go. I dont need flagrant fouls. But I miss the intensity


thats why the league is a joke today. With one flick of adam silver limp d!ck wrist he can banish anybody for any infraction on a whim, especially if one of his b!tchmade golden boys campaigns for it. New era.. soft as hell. imagine larry bird crying in post games to have a guy that threw an elbow or some type of blow at him in a scrum (which was give and take for larry prolly a 100 times a night) to be suspended?

:facepalm

[Overdrive]

Pretty good timing on this. We just saw a team that "played the right way" with impeccable ball movement/getting everyone involved/winning 73 games lose to a team that would dribble the ball to 10 seconds left on the shot clock, set a pick, get a switch and isolate pretty much every time down the floor. Too often people confuse pretty basketball with effective basketball.


The Warriors left their ball movement based game in the playoffs and the guys started chucking threes off the dribble or after 1 pass.

Of course those sharpshooters didn't just lose their shot, but they're not used to create their own shot against tight defenses. They're used to PnRs with off ball screens to open up 3 options anytime down the court. OKC and CLE gave them one option - to shoot. Most of the time and if you have no options and have to do stuff, pressure rises, you get physically exhausted. Both OKC's and CLE's defense forced GS to become an (kinda) iso heavy offense. The tried their PnRs, but failed most of the time and the ball handler was stuck in a tight 1v1 situation after using the screen.

CLE made GS play their game and won as GS isn't used to it. When CLE tried to hang with GS at their game in G2 they were killed.

Basketball games are won when you make the other team adjust and take them out of their comfort zone.

[Kblaze8855]

thats why the league is a joke today. With one flick of adam silver limp d!ck wrist he can banish anybody for any infraction on a whim, especially if one of his b!tchmade golden boys campaigns for it.

Nah. Green put himself into that position. He makes himself have to worry about things. He had too many flagrants...and techs for that matter. He led the playoffs. Was second In the playoffs last season. And he was 3rd in the NBA this season....which seems odd considering most games he was winning blowouts having fun. Imagine that dude on a bad team dealing with frustrating defeats? He would be breaking tech records.

League has gotten soft....but he never played in a league that wasn't. It didn't get this way for the finals. Its been soft. Silver couldn't just...decide to throw out Steph....because Steph didn't put himself into position for it. And when he kinda did with the mouthpiece....they looked the other way.

At some point we have to blame people or their actions. I don't like the way the league is these days.....but he knew it going in. And kept racking up techs and flagrants.

World got all over them for letting him slide once. Couldn't do it again. Gotta stop looking past personal responsibility when shit like this goes badly. Especially something that takes weeks of buildup to even happen.

It isnt the league I want....but its the only league Green has ever known. He cant feign ignorance and we don't need to pretend he didn't know either.

[jstern]

Come on, man... what evidence do you have that Kobe or others didn't analyze the situation? Just seems like a "hate-filled" unnecessary name drop.

Kobe's one of the more intelligent players to ever play. I really doubt that too many of his shots were "adrenaline filled" over being "analyzed". You just may disagree with his analytical skills :lol

The evidence comes from watching Jordan in pressure situations over the course of his career, and understanding how Adrenalin, which is common and normal function affects people. Most players get affected, because they have human genetics.

And during the 2010 Finals there was a play that struck out to me the most when it came to the difference between Jordan and Kobe, and all the Kobe teenage fans trying to claim that Kobe was better than Jordan at the time. The Lakers were down with a less than a minute to go, perhaps less than 30s seconds. Kobe got the ball two feet or so from behind the 3 point line, while being defended, and he just immediately launched the shot. I was like wow, Jordan would have done a fake, go to the right, or to the left, and then shoot an open shot. Completely calm in the moment. What I saw from Kobe was an anxious, Adrenalin shot, when as a player was more than beyond capable of quickly getting an open shot. Not saying that he choked, since I'm not talking about fear, he simply had a natural fight or flight respond. It's the more normal human reaction. That is what it is. These people are human, Kobe is human. Just that Jordan seemed to be abnormal in that regard, and Kobe stan will take my observations as a put down because how dare someone look at Kobe as having a normal human response.

What I heard from Irving was a calm analysis of the situation, which really impressed me and reminded me of Jordan's calm analysis of his final shot as a Bull.

[plowking]

So hilarious some of you seem to think, and especially kblaze, that you should be able to punch someone, and even a fan and not be suspended for it. :oldlol:

Punching a fan and not being suspended is just good old, tough basketball guys. Need to bring it back. :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

Kblaze strikes me as increasingly promoting 'black basketball'.

[Kblaze8855]

So hilarious some of you seem to think, and especially kblaze, that you should be able to punch someone, and even a fan and not be suspended for it. :oldlol:

Punching a fan and not being suspended is just good old, tough basketball guys. Need to bring it back. :oldlol:


I said I understand it from a business point of view. You never heard me say the NBA shouldn't suspend players for acting like idiots.....I said....it creates worse basketball. And it does.

I'm about the final product not how it makes anyone....feel.

[plowking]

I said I understand it from a business point of view. You never heard me say the NBA shouldn't suspend players for acting like idiots.....I said....it creates worse basketball. And it does.

I'm about the final product not how it makes anyone....feel.

Of course it creates worse basketball, since players are suspended. But if you do stupid things on the court, you deserve it. It is called taking responsibilities for your actions.

I'm sure no team wants to internally suspend their players either, but if they keep doing stupid shit, then it can happen.

What is it that you are exactly arguing?

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze strikes me as increasingly promoting 'black basketball'.


Explain that to me.

One could argue white players are the ultimate example of two of these three concepts. Rick Barry gave less of a shit about chucking than anyone ever has......and Laimbeer is the posterchild of physical 80s basketball.

Had I made this and replaced Kobes part with Barry shooting 50 times in the finals is it no longer black basketball? He took 235 shots in 6 games. One game he had 59 touches....and only passed the ball 11 times. And he took 48 shots the game before that. He was pretty much the kid from the commercial I included.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course it creates worse basketball, since players are suspended. But if you do stupid things on the court, you deserve it. It is called taking responsibilities for your actions.

I'm sure no team wants to internally suspend their players either, but if they keep doing stupid shit, then it can happen.

What is it that you are exactly arguing?


That the more physical nature of the game helped generate the kind of animosity that drove the rivalries that created what everyone who saw it....remembers as the golden age.

My point isn't.....let Green punch Lebron in the face and call a regular foul and play on.

My point is....when they legislated out the more physical aspects....be it the defense....trying to spread the floor and reduce game slowing isolations and post play...making penalties worse for hard fouls....you lost some of what made the struggle to win so exciting.

Of course it got out of hand from time to time. But even in the 70s/80s guys were not just brawling nightly. But the competition was better....not because of superior players....because getting a W in a big series was as much about imposing your will from a physical standpoint as who executed the gameplan better.

We have all seen "These teams don't like eachother..." games. There is rarely a fight....but there is more passion.

You I'm sure watched the Lakers/kings games years ago. Perhaps Knicks/Heat? I'm not sure of your age. But you see those games....you just get more into it. The players want it more. They want to defeat their enemy as much as just....win.

Its just a different kind of intensity. And it doesn't require getting shoved or bumped on a drive.....but....it just kinda went there now and then. And barring special circumstances.....id be ok with that.

I don't need the basketball made worse because a key player and emotional leader shoved a guy off him. I'm not checking for that.

As I said....I understand why its good business to make these rules.

But there is a reason so many from my age group complain and it isn't just hating. We love the game too. I still don't miss a national tv game. I love the NBA now and forever.

But....just being honest? The players don't seem to want it the same way. And part of it isn't just the rules. Its an increase in player movement that reduces rivalries by changing the groups of players. But its all part of it.

When a guy like Lebron just.....WANTS it. Like...hes going all out to pry victory from the jaws of defeat....it stands out. The intensity Lebron showed the last few games....I loved it. But truth is.....I saw it from like 4 guys EVERY time Philly and Boston played. Those dudes got in a fist fight in the first quarter of a preseason game.

And it wasn't the fight that makes it impressive.....its that they want it so bad that it gets to that level...in a game that doesn't matter.

And we lost a lot of that.

I'm not so much repping the fights themselves....as the environment of competitiveness that creates them. I hope that makes sense.

[Da_Realist]

I'm not so much repping the fights themselves....as the environment of competitiveness that creates them. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, it does. And you did a good job explaining it. I agree with everything you posted in this thread.

[90sgoat]

Explain that to me.

One could argue white players are the ultimate example of two of these three concepts. Rick Barry gave less of a shit about chucking than anyone ever has......and Laimbeer is the posterchild of physical 80s basketball.

Had I made this and replaced Kobes part with Barry shooting 50 times in the finals is it no longer black basketball? He took 235 shots in 6 games. One game he had 59 touches....and only passed the ball 11 times. And he took 48 shots the game before that. He was pretty much the kid from the commercial I included.

First of all props for being able to talk about 'white vs black' basketball.

It's not about race but lets say white vs black basketball culture.

Black basketball is streetball born basketball. 1 on 1, isolation, showboating, Rucker park kind of game.

White basketball is high school born basketball, team concept, efficiency over form, Duke kind of basketball.

At the moment the NBA is very 'black'. It's not very good because of that. The NBA would not be very good if it was only white either. Of course if we look at it historically, in the 80s you had an actual battle of black vs white basketball in Lakers vs Celtics.

That kind of dynamic led to teams of the 90s which took the best from both kind of basketball. The best examples of this are teams like MJ's Bulls which took a white team oriented, fundamental game and infused it with enough room for black iso game.

Today it is all iso, all dancing, prancing, laughing. It just turns some people off. It is not diciplined. White basketball ENJOY the dicipline, see the Spurs, they're a white team, the Cavs are a black team, everyone gets their time for 1 on 1, iso, dancing, prancing, laughing. White ball doesn't laugh, dance, prance, but look serious like Kawhi Leonard.

The best basketball comes when rules allow for both games so the best comes out on top.

[Kblaze8855]

Just not seeing a reason to call it black or white. too many players from either side don't fit the stereotype. Its more playground vs structure. More well off kids learn the game in a more structured setting so naturally less minorities are on that end....but its far from a black white issue.

[artificial]

First of all props for being able to talk about 'white vs black' basketball.

It's not about race but lets say white vs black basketball culture.

Black basketball is streetball born basketball. 1 on 1, isolation, showboating, Rucker park kind of game.

White basketball is high school born basketball, team concept, efficiency over form, Duke kind of basketball.

At the moment the NBA is very 'black'. It's not very good because of that. The NBA would not be very good if it was only white either. Of course if we look at it historically, in the 80s you had an actual battle of black vs white basketball in Lakers vs Celtics.

That kind of dynamic led to teams of the 90s which took the best from both kind of basketball. The best examples of this are teams like MJ's Bulls which took a white team oriented, fundamental game and infused it with enough room for black iso game.

Today it is all iso, all dancing, prancing, laughing. It just turns some people off. It is not diciplined. White basketball ENJOY the dicipline, see the Spurs, they're a white team, the Cavs are a black team, everyone gets their time for 1 on 1, iso, dancing, prancing, laughing. White ball doesn't laugh, dance, prance, but look serious like Kawhi Leonard.

The best basketball comes when rules allow for both games so the best comes out on top.
Wow, someone explain to me how that's NOT racist...

I see what you mean, and really it doesn't seem to be race related. However, you choose to call it black and white, deeming it really difficult not to associate it with racial stereotypes. Why exactly black and white?

[90sgoat]

Wow, someone explain to me how that's NOT racist...

I see what you mean, and really it doesn't seem to be race related. However, you choose to call it black and white, deeming it really difficult not to associate it with racial stereotypes. Why exactly black and white?

Lol man, I have enough of this two timing crap, where blacks pretend they're not hella racist on the basketball court.

I don't know what world you live in, but if you go to any playground and ask what they think about white vs black ballers, you'll get your answers. They even made a movie about it White Men Can't Jump.

Enough with the nonsense! It's blacks who make the distinction first and last, not whites.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

First of all props for being able to talk about 'white vs black' basketball.

It's not about race but lets say white vs black basketball culture.

Black basketball is streetball born basketball. 1 on 1, isolation, showboating, Rucker park kind of game.

White basketball is high school born basketball, team concept, efficiency over form, Duke kind of basketball.

At the moment the NBA is very 'black'. It's not very good because of that. The NBA would not be very good if it was only white either. Of course if we look at it historically, in the 80s you had an actual battle of black vs white basketball in Lakers vs Celtics.

That kind of dynamic led to teams of the 90s which took the best from both kind of basketball. The best examples of this are teams like MJ's Bulls which took a white team oriented, fundamental game and infused it with enough room for black iso game.

Today it is all iso, all dancing, prancing, laughing. It just turns some people off. It is not diciplined. White basketball ENJOY the dicipline, see the Spurs, they're a white team, the Cavs are a black team, everyone gets their time for 1 on 1, iso, dancing, prancing, laughing. White ball doesn't laugh, dance, prance, but look serious like Kawhi Leonard.

The best basketball comes when rules allow for both games so the best comes out on top.

What the hell are you even talking about right now?

Conflating seriousness and laughter with...skin color?

Somebody chuck this clown's post into the dumbest things said thread. Daft motherf*ckers on this forum, god damn.

[Kblaze8855]

Lol man, I have enough of this two timing crap, where blacks pretend they're not hella racist on the basketball court.

I don't know what world you live in, but if you go to any playground and ask what they think about white vs black ballers, you'll get your answers. They even made a movie about it White Men Can't Jump.

Enough with the nonsense! It's blacks who make the distinction first and last, not whites.


Once more....why call it black and white styles...when so many of each race fit each style? White kids who learn a playground style play that way. You are taught a different way playing in leagues and games with real coaching...you play a different way.

[artificial]

Lol man, I have enough of this two timing crap, where blacks pretend they're not hella racist on the basketball court.

I don't know what world you live in, but if you go to any playground and ask what they think about white vs black ballers, you'll get your answers. They even made a movie about it White Men Can't Jump.

Enough with the nonsense! It's blacks who make the distinction first and last, not whites.
White men can't jump was a semi-funny movie from... almost 25 years ago. The white guy was a hell of a street baller. Your point? And what if it's black people making the distinction, or even being racist. Exactly what is that supposed to prove? Whoever says it, it's racist.

Not trying to attack you here. I can see what you mean in your classification of types basketball. I'm just saying, the way it's labeled is wrong in many ways.

[iamgine]

Mostly by people who are for whatever reason obsessed with quantifying greatness and trying to put together a formula for winning....that to me....leaves out a lot of necessary ingredients. Ive chosen to make my point partly by reviving a video series from a decade ago that I'm nearly 100% sure you wont remember

https://youtu.be/uJhU1JNEBd4



F*ck fundamentals 6.

Watch it when you have a few minutes...this whole rambling post will make more sense. I cut it from what would have been 20 minutes to something much more reasonable.

Is the vulgarity required? Id say yes for two reasons. One...its always been a somewhat humor based series of videos...and secondly...

Seriously....**** fundamentals.

Well not so much far as what they really are....but for what the modern idea of them are.

The basics of the game are a lot more than proper bounce passes....only shooting when open....making your FTs...playing clean and winning the "right" way.


So many games and titles have been won by people who specialize in often questionable shots it hard for me to grasp peoples obsession with players who dont take them.

In our relentless search for efficiency we have marganilized what may be the most important aspect of a go to scorers skillset.....the ability and willingness to make something out of nothing. To break the offense and just....go at someone. At a couple someones.

Every now and then a team with impeccable ball movement comes along and we as a fanbase emit synchronized manswoons to clips of plays with 11 passes resulting in an open jumper or layup. And that team will win now and then. The spurs did a couple years ago. It does happen....and I love tosee it. Oddly enough I'm working on a video on exactly that subject and ill make that topic when enough time has passed for you to forget my hypocrisy.

But the usual? Some guy who is willing and capable to just go rogue and take scumbag shots wins the title. You need that guy.

You need Kyrie to see nobody can make a shot so he needs to go one on one and take a terrible pullup/fadeaway 3 to win the title.

You need Steph to get his shit together and start abusing Delly with insideout crossovers and stepbacks while his team looks on barely more involved in the play than we are.

But we get so annoyed with some guys who make it their go to style of play because so often they end up with the 1 or 2 extra misses in 20 that makes them *insert gasp* inefficient.

Gotta whisper when talking in a positive way about people unconcerned with their efficiency.

Never mind that guys like Russell Westbrook have had as much success as 80% of the hall of fame and legendary points considered "pure". We keep connecting efficiency to success in our heads as if we dont have history books showing us all these guys losing at about the same rate.

I swear in like 4 years....Damian Lillard will win a finals MVP with 29ppg on 40% shooting and people are still gonna act like the team would have been better if he let someone else miss the extra couple shots a night as they win a title in 6 games.

Long story short...when shit gets real...when great teams go at it....you need a scumbag ready and able to dribble 11 seconds and shoot a heathenous pullup jumper. Sometimes.....its just the smart play....even if its a "dumb" shot.

Related.....we gotta stop calling everyone with wild shot selection stupid. Ever hear Jamal Crawford or Kyrie Irving talk about basketball? These are not idiots. They just....take shots we were raised to consider stupid. But one just won a ring by taking one so.....maybe we can let it go for a while?
These are called hero ball. I guess when you're at the talent level of Harden, Curry, Irving, etc it's okay. But even these ridiculous shots has a limit. You can't just take 40 feet iso turnaround jumper.

Also, you gotta balance it out with smart plays. You don't just shoot your scumbag shots five times in a row.

So yes be a scumbag, but not too much and not too often.