Searching for this great defense in the '93 finals like

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.gyazo.com/c577da75a03828bfef3d70a88d4ddd7d.gif

[pastis]

not only the 93 finals.

not long ago i had the opportunity to rewatch enough highlights of one of the celtics chip runs.... cant remember if i watched the finals or the ECF....wow what a lazy defense OVERALL. of course you had the hardcore moments, but overall the defense looked not special and tough at all.

[3ball]

I did a comparison last night of how many of Lebron's made field goals from Game 6 were CONTESTED (meaning someone jumped with his shot/left their feet to contest his shot) - exactly half were, and half weren't.

I'll post the play-by-play in a second.. But for now, take my word for it (or look at the game highlights yourself), and compare to Jordan's 55 point game - nearly ALL of Jordan's shots are contested in that game.

Btw, there's a key concept you don't understand about no-spacing environments (when teammates aren't shooting a lot of 3's) - without 3-pointers to space out the defenders, defenders don't have to move that far to help - so you don't see defenders scrambling and moving great distances on defense because all they have to do is take a step or two and they're helping.. This makes it look like defenders are standing around, but that's how today's defense would look if guys didn't shoot 3's.

Okay, I'm going to do that play-by-play of Lebron's shots in Game 6 now - you'll see - HALF are uncontested, compared to almost no uncontested shots for Jordan's 55 point game.

(edit: i'm going to have to do the play-by-play later - but look for yourself at Lebron's Game 6 and compare to Jordan's 55 point game - it's no comparison).
.

[imdaman99]

Where was the great defense in the '16 Finals? :coleman: Badback Iggy? Maybe Lebron chase down blocks doe :cheers:

We had dudes fouling on pump fakes from the 3 point line in the 4th quarters of the last 2 game 7s this season :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Where was the great defense in the '16 Finals? :coleman: Badback Iggy? Maybe Lebron chase down blocks doe :cheers:

We had dudes fouling on pump fakes from the 3 point line in the 4th quarters of the last 2 game 7s this season :oldlol:

thats a very bad example dude... very bad :lol should I explain why?

[ClipperRevival]

Gotta love these little kids getting together and patting each other on the back with these ignorant topics, knowing full well they don't know sh*t about that era. Of course if your mindset is to see "weak defense", you'll see "weak defense."

[ArbitraryWater]

Gotta love these little kids getting together and patting each other on the back with these ignorant topics, knowing full well they don't know sh*t about that era. Of course if your mindset is to see "weak defense", you'll see "weak defense."

No, not at all... dont tell me you dont see a very poor footed defender in Majerle, bad positioning at the rim, late closeouts, and easy to blow by... just be honest.

[3ball]

Btw, i'm searching for the good defense from the 2011 Mavericks, who had the same defensive ranking as the Suns.

Still looking - all I see is Lebron struggling against midgets

[3ball]

No, not at all... dont tell me you dont see a very poor footed defender in Majerle, bad positioning at the rim, late closeouts, and easy to blow by... just be honest.
All nonsense - Jordan was much quicker and better at getting by his man without a forearm - that's an obvious fact - so of course Jordan makes it look easy.

Also, what are you going to say when I post the play-by-play showing that only half of Lebron's shots from Game 6 were contested (meaning someone left their feet to contest the shot), while nearly all of Jordan's shots from his 55 point game were contested?

[plowking]

Gotta love these little kids getting together and patting each other on the back with these ignorant topics, knowing full well they don't know sh*t about that era. Of course if your mindset is to see "weak defense", you'll see "weak defense."

You don't know jack shit about that era. :oldlol:

You pose as a Jordan stan, yet you didn't even know that Payton didn't guard Jordan the first 3 games of the 96 finals. You try and preach about the dude, yet you don't even know shit about the Bulls greatest season. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Btw, i'm searching for the good defense from the 2011 Mavericks, who had the same defensive ranking as the Suns.

Still looking - all I see is Lebron struggling against midgets

Marion, Chandler, even Stevenson >

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I was never impressed w/ Phoenix's defense circa the Barkley era, and I watched then too.

Majerle was an overrated defender (poor lateral movement), KJ was frail on defense, and their front line was pretty mediocre relative to that time period.

They were the worst defense Jordan faced in all 6 of his finals, IMO. The Sonics and Jazz being the best of the group obviously (very good defenses).

[ArbitraryWater]

You don't know jack shit about that era. :oldlol:

You pose as a Jordan stan, yet you didn't even know that Payton didn't guard Jordan the first 3 games of the 96 finals. You try and preach about the dude, yet you don't even know shit about the Bulls greatest season. :oldlol:

His preaching always goes like digging up the raw averages from basketball reference and making the same thread on it every 4 months lol

[ClipperRevival]

You don't know jack shit about that era. :oldlol:

You pose as a Jordan stan, yet you didn't even know that Payton didn't guard Jordan the first 3 games of the 96 finals. You try and preach about the dude, yet you don't even know shit about the Bulls greatest season. :oldlol:

Pretty pathetic. That's like the 5th time you mentioned this. How desparate are you? I don't need to prove sh*t to you about bball. You have to prove to me.

[3ball]

You don't know jack shit about that era. :oldlol:

You pose as a Jordan stan, yet you didn't even know that Payton didn't guard Jordan the first 3 games of the 96 finals. You try and preach about the dude, yet you don't even know shit about the Bulls greatest season. :oldlol:


All you can do is talk about Jordan shooting poorly for 2 of the last 3 Finals games in 1996, which had little to do with Payton guarding him.

Should we find out what Lebron's worst 3 Finals games look like and who was guarding him?.. You wouldn't want that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Michael Jordan v.s. nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

[ArbitraryWater]

Pistons, Knicks, were the strongest defenses... then Sonics.. then Jazz.

[Just2McFly]

Glad I low key spearheaded a movement cause I'm tired of n*ggas not using context when they are talking finals scoring because the way Shaq and Jordan were guarded and who they were guarded by makes me laugh. Of course they didn't need the additional help but they did benefit from a lot. Shaq getting away with tons of offensive fouls that they didn't start calling till 2004 for some reason, and Jordan's first three peat was against Swiss Cheese defense.

I watch games and I just laugh.

I'm tired of people bringing up the 93 Finals because I know Kobe in 08 and 2010 would be cheesed watching Jordan skate by overrated and below average defenders meanwhile Tony Allen/ Pierce/Rondo/Ray Allen/James Posey/etc... are in his face with the whole floor shaded in his direction.

Same with KD/Lebron/Wade/Curry/etc..

[ArbitraryWater]

Glad I low key spearheaded a movement cause I'm tired of n*ggas not using context when they are talking finals scoring because the way Shaq and Jordan were guarded and who they were guarded by makes me laugh. Of course they didn't need the additional help but they did benefit from a lot. Shaq getting away with tons of offensive fouls that they didn't start calling till 2004 for some reason, and Jordan's first three peat was against Swiss Cheese defense.

I watch games and I just laugh.

I'm tired of people bringing up the 93 Finals because I know Kobe in 08 and 2010 would be cheesed watching Jordan skate by overrated and below average defenders meanwhile Tony Allen/ Pierce/Rondo/Ray Allen/James Posey/etc... are in his face with the whole floor shaded in his direction.

Same with KD/Lebron/Wade/Curry/etc..

we going too far now.. Kobe just ain there. Not even a tier below.. at best two.

[3ball]

I was never impressed w/ Phoenix's defense circa the Barkley era, and I watched then too.


No you didn't - because if you did, you'd know that Oliver Miller was a great shot-blocker - better than Bogut.

His career block % and blocks per 100 is higher than Bogut's, and both averaged 2.0 blocks in 1993 and 2016 Finals, respectively.

Oliver Miller had one of the longest wingspans in the league, and it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE that he was a very good shot-blocker - yet you make fun of him, which means you either didn't watch back then, or are dumb as hell.





They were the worst defense Jordan faced in all 6 of his finals, IMO.


The Mavericks were the worst defense Lebron faced (same ranking as the Suns) and he averaged 17 ppg (you'll completely ignore this statement).

Also, why were nearly all of Jordan's shots in his 55 point game CONTESTED (someone jumped with his shot attempts), compared to only half of Lebron's shots in Game 6 of this year's Finals?.. go watch the game - Lebron's shots largely uncontested (i'll post the play-by-play later to prove it, although you could see for yourself by watching the highlights).

[ClipperRevival]

Glad I low key spearheaded a movement cause I'm tired of n*ggas not using context when they are talking finals scoring because the way Shaq and Jordan were guarded and who they were guarded by makes me laugh. Of course they didn't need the additional help but they did benefit from a lot. Shaq getting away with tons of offensive fouls that they didn't start calling till 2004 for some reason, and Jordan's first three peat was against Swiss Cheese defense.

I watch games and I just laugh.

I'm tired of people bringing up the 93 Finals because I know Kobe in 08 and 2010 would be cheesed watching Jordan skate by overrated and below average defenders meanwhile Tony Allen/ Pierce/Rondo/Ray Allen/James Posey/etc... are in his face with the whole floor shaded in his direction.

Same with KD/Lebron/Wade/Curry/etc..

Let's see. Who did MJ destroy during your impressionable days as a kid? Jazz? Lakers? Pistons? Knicks? Heat? Blazers? Sonics? Suns?

[tpols]

No you didn't - because if you did, you'd know that Oliver Miller was a great shot-blocker - better than Bogut.

His career block % and blocks per 100 is higher than Bogut's, and both averaged 2.0 blocks in 1993 and 2016 Finals, respectively.

Oliver Miller had one of the longest wingspans in the league, and it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE that he was a very good shot-blocker - yet you make fun of him, which means you either didn't watch back then, or are dumb as hell.



The Mavericks were the worst defense Lebron faced (same ranking as the Suns) and he averaged 17 ppg (you'll completely ignore this statement).

Also, why were nearly all of Jordan's shots in his 55 point game CONTESTED (someone jumped with his shot attempts), compared to only half of Lebron's shots in Game 6 of this year's Finals?.. go watch the game - Lebron's shots largely uncontested (i'll post the play-by-play later to prove it, although you could see for yourself by watching the highlights).


why are you bringing up Bogut though in this comparison? he was gone for the whole 3-1 comeback and replaced by hot trash.

[3ball]

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%


Wow, those are Jordan's 3 worst playoff series, statistically.. (all wins)

Can you post Lebron's so we can compare? (you don't dare)
.

[Just2McFly]

we going too far now.. Kobe just ain there. Not even a tier below.. at best two.
I'm saying the defense he faced those two years had him longing for easier times.:oldlol:

There would be times where all 5 players on the C's were watching Kobe intently. He couldn't even get off the bench without someone denying him.:oldlol:

I'm comparing the defenses they faced, not them as players. I don't want to spark a debate of that magnitude.

[Stringer Bell]

The Suns defense wasn't that good, it was a big difference from the previous round, facing the Knicks and Pat Riley's prison-style defense.

I think it was Horace Grant who described it as "liberating" to play that Suns defense after playing the Knicks.

The Suns were an elite offensive team, the Knicks were elite on defense.

[plowking]

Pretty pathetic. That's like the 5th time you mentioned this. How desparate are you? I don't need to prove sh*t to you about bball. You have to prove to me.

Is it though? For me it is a bit of fun calling you out in these threads because I know how little you know. You don't have to prove shit to me, you're absolutely right. You already proved enough and how little you know. :oldlol:
Neither of us have to prove anything, not sure where you got me needing to prove anything to you. I know that I know more than you about ball.

Desperate? Not at all. I just find it fun calling you out on bullshit when you don't know what you're talking about. It is a forum. I can do it as much as I want. I'll probably continue to do it for a while too whenever I do so happen to see your dumb ass posts.

Its a good thing though. I hammer the point home to you, and you finally know, and will never forget who guarded MJ that finals! It is an opportunity to learn for you!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No you didn't - because if you did, you'd know that Oliver Miller was a great shot-blocker - better than Bogut.

His career block % and blocks per 100 is higher than Bogut's, and both averaged 2.0 blocks in 1993 and 2016 Finals, respectively.

Oliver Miller had one of the longest wingspans in the league, and it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE that he was a very good shot-blocker - yet you make fun of him, which means you either didn't watch back then, or are dumb as hell.

Oliver Miller was an OK shot blocker at best.

He was fat, lazy and slow for the most part.

You using him to compare the Suns' front line to Golden State's was literally one of the dumbest things posted here.

I'm content knowing that I actually watched this series, and most of Jordan's career in the 90s, while you're here ALL DAY skimming thru basketball-reference and youtube videos, faking the funk and playing catchup.

:pimp:


The Mavericks were the worst defense Lebron faced (same ranking as the Suns) and he averaged 17 ppg (you'll completely ignore this statement).

Not even remotely relevant.

[Just2McFly]

The Mavericks were the worst defense Lebron faced (same ranking as the Suns) and he averaged 17 ppg (you'll completely ignore this statement).

Also, why were nearly all of Jordan's shots in his 55 point game CONTESTED (someone jumped with his shot attempts), compared to only half of Lebron's shots in Game 6 of this year's Finals?.. go watch the game - Lebron's shots largely uncontested (i'll post the play-by-play later to prove it, although you could see for yourself by watching the highlights).

Although it's completely irrelevant, the Mavs were were MILES better defensively than these Suns. Choking bron averages 30 against the Suns easy.:lol

[ClipperRevival]

Is it though? For me it is a bit of fun calling you out in these threads because I know how little you know. You don't have to prove shit to me, you're absolutely right. You already proved enough and how little you know. :oldlol:
Neither of us have to prove anything, not sure where you got me needing to prove anything to you. I know that I know more than you about ball.

Desperate? Not at all. I just find it fun calling you out on bullshit when you don't know what you're talking about. It is a forum. I can do it as much as I want. I'll probably continue to do it for a while too whenever I do so happen to see your dumb ass posts.

Its a good thing though. I hammer the point home to you, and you finally know, and will never forget who guarded MJ that finals! It is an opportunity to learn for you!

You don't know how many times I've ready your threads and went :biggums: Could've easily called you out but real recognize real, game recognize game. I'll leave it at that.

[plowking]

Dear lord there is some cringe worthy responses between 3ball and Clippers.

[AirBonner]

Rip 3ball. Swiss cheese defense era.

[ClipperRevival]

The Suns defense wasn't that good, it was a big difference from the previous round, facing the Knicks and Pat Riley's prison-style defense.

I think it was Horace Grant who described it as "liberating" to play that Suns defense after playing the Knicks.

The Suns were an elite offensive team, the Knicks were elite on defense.

Yeah, but what does that really prove? It's like some LeBron hater going over the weakest defense he faced in the finals as "evidence" that all of his opponents were weak. Everyone knows the Suns were an offensive powerhouse, and not defensive powerhouse. This is obvious. But when little kids get together and judge eras without proper context, it's annoying.

[ClipperRevival]

Rip 3ball. Swiss cheese defense era.

See. :facepalm

[3ball]

Posey


40-year old Jordan destroyed Posey for 35/11/6 in a head-to-head matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPsuzUZ69U&t=1m13s





Ray Allen


35-year old Jordan had 44 points in a truly GOAT performance against Ray Allen - destroyed him over and over

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y






Pierce


Wizards Jordan destroyed Pierce in their head-to-head matchups (32 points):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CDcRwDufXY






Same with KD


MJ played small forward in 2002, so he was matched up with Garnett in their first meeting, who was ALSO playing SF that year - the two were matched up from the opening tip - he scores 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4


and starting at the 4:00 mark, Garnett guards Jordan 5 times in a row mono-a-mono, and 5 times in a row he got dropped off, with the announcers getting more excited each time..
.

[tpols]

Yeah, but what does that really prove? It's like some LeBron hater going over the weakest defense he faced in the finals as "evidence" that all of his opponents were weak. Everyone knows the Suns were an offensive powerhouse, and not defensive powerhouse. This is obvious. But when little kids get together and judge eras without proper context, it's annoying.

well.. honest question.. dont you think that should be sorta mentioned if you want to make analogous comparisons ? People want to make Jordan and Shaq out to be hero who went into super clutch mode when the magic Finals time came around, but neglect to factor in the simple logic that going from david robinson to todd mccullough or knicks to suns should make for much better performances.


Bran fans dont have the right to talk however, since the cavs didnt even have to face any knicks level defense prior to the Finals, and for the only team they saw that had a great defense, it took all of their best defenders missing major time for Bran to start capitilizing. So their argument is bullshit either way.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The Mavericks were the worst defense Lebron faced (same ranking as the Suns) and he averaged 17 ppg (you'll completely ignore this statement).


Not exactly. The Mavs according to the statistics were better defensively than the Suns. (And that is even with the Mavs going 2-7 without Dirk that year.... he may not have been a great defender but it skews the stats for the year big time considering....)

[3ball]

Dear lord there is some cringe worthy responses between 3ball and Clippers.
you're a non-factor in threads - you never offer any substance, just stupid, immature comments

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

well.. honest question.. dont you think that should be sorta mentioned if you want to make analogous comparisons ? People want to make Jordan and Shaq out to be hero who went into super clutch mode when the magic Finals time came around, but neglect to factor in going from david robinson to todd mccullough or knicks to suns should make for much better performances.


Bran fans dont have the right to talk however, since the cavs didnt even have to face any knicks level defense prior to the Finals, and on the only team they saw that had a great defense, it took all of their best defenders missing major time for Bran to start capitilizing. So their argument is bullshit either way.

Yeah, Bron has definitely played his share of weak competition. Him bulldozing thru a fragile conference year after year is a testament to that. :oldlol:

Suggesting that '93 Phoenix had a mediocre defense and poor front line, relative to the era, is not really hating though. Its calling a spade a spade.

[plowking]

you're a non-factor in threads - you never offer any substance, just stupid, immature comments

Was that copy and pasted from another one of your threads or off the top?

[andgar923]

https://i.gyazo.com/c577da75a03828bfef3d70a88d4ddd7d.gif
http://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2016/Isk-1a.gif (http://makeagif.com/Isk-1a)

https://media.giphy.com/media/PmWkoHdU9Yj5e/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/MGDWmE3MfQpPO/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/nwa5aNJuVbI0o/giphy.gif

:facepalm

[3ball]

I'm content knowing that I actually watched this series, and most of Jordan's career in the 90s, while you're here ALL DAY skimming thru basketball-reference and youtube videos, faking the funk and playing catchup.


I played D1 basketball for 2 schools against many NBA players, many of whom have been discussed in these threads.

One thing you should know - I base all my posts ON THE EYE TEST - when I first started posting on 2+2, all my posts were based on the eye test.. But those stat bots were clueless about what I was saying because they never played - all they wanted to see was statistical proof..

So that's what I do now - I simply find stats to support the what I see with my eyes - and now fools like you (who probably never played and therefore have no eye test) are saying I'm a stat guy, when it's the exact opposite.





Oliver Miller was an OK shot blocker at best.


Again, this is factually incorrect - it was common knowledge that he had one of the longest wingspans in the league and was one of the better shot-blockers IN the league.

So keep being in denial, even though he blocked more shots than Bogut (see, there's my eye test being converted to stats again so you can understand.. :rolleyes:)

[3ball]

Suggesting that '93 Phoenix had a mediocre defense and poor front line, relative to the era, is not really hating though. Its calling a spade a spade.


That's the key - relative to era.

Lebron has never played on a team where his teammates only took 6 threes per game, so he's never faced the overcrowded paints of the 90's that forced players to pull-up from midrange.

Regardless of how weak you think the Suns defense was relative to the era, Lebron would be forced to play a different game back then, which he isn't as good at (more midrange, less easy penetration).

The lack of spacing is evident: Later on, I'm going to post the play-by-play of Lebron's made field goals from Game 6... HALF of them aren't contested (where a defender leaves his feet to contest the shot), while nearly ALL of Jordan's made field goals from his 55 point game are contested.

[aj1987]

I played D1 basketball for 2 schools against many NBA players, many of whom have been discussed in these threads.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The only basketball you've ever played was on 2k.

[AirBonner]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The only basketball you've ever played was on 2k.
Ironically thats where he bases his facts from as well :lol

[ClipperRevival]

well.. honest question.. dont you think that should be sorta mentioned if you want to make analogous comparisons ? People want to make Jordan and Shaq out to be hero who went into super clutch mode when the magic Finals time came around, but neglect to factor in the simple logic that going from david robinson to todd mccullough or knicks to suns should make for much better performances.


Bran fans dont have the right to talk however, since the cavs didnt even have to face any knicks level defense prior to the Finals, and for the only team they saw that had a great defense, it took all of their best defenders missing major time for Bran to start capitilizing. So their argument is bullshit either way.

It's agenda driven. Their point isn't to just point to this one series. Their point is to somehow "prove" that because this Suns D wasn't a juggernaut, that every D in that era was weak.

But MJ WAS a superhero in the finals. You can take out his 41.0 ppg of the 1993 finals and he still averaged about 32 ppg in his other 5 finals. No one brought it like MJ in the finals. The alpha dog scoring, the consistent clutch plays and the statements made to demoralize opponents.

[tpols]

It's agenda driven. Their point isn't to just point to this one series. Their point is to somehow "prove" that because this Suns D wasn't a juggernaut, that every D in that era was weak.

But MJ WAS a superhero in the finals. You can take out his 41.0 ppg of the 1993 finals and he still averaged about 32 ppg in his other 5 finals. No one brought it like MJ in the finals. The alpha dog scoring, the consistent clutch plays and the statements made to demoralize opponents.

i agree with that, but bringing up this train of logic and examining things is a good thing not a bad one, it gives better understanding

[3ball]

kuniva, I wish you'd meticulously read, respond, and breakdown every aspect of my other posts the way you did when I informed you that I played D1 for two schools

[AirBonner]

kuniva, I wish you'd meticulously read, respond, and breakdown every aspect of my other posts the way you did when I informed you that I played D1 for two schools
Schools? Years? Team photos? Come on bruh.

[ClipperRevival]

3ball,

Playing D1, especially if you were a wing player, is elite company for a baller. If you are going to make such a claim, what school/years did you attend? Can't make such a claim and not expect people on this board to inquire.

[KirbyPls]

well.. honest question.. dont you think that should be sorta mentioned if you want to make analogous comparisons ? People want to make Jordan and Shaq out to be hero who went into super clutch mode when the magic Finals time came around, but neglect to factor in the simple logic that going from david robinson to todd mccullough or knicks to suns should make for much better performances.


Bran fans dont have the right to talk however, since the cavs didnt even have to face any knicks level defense prior to the Finals, and for the only team they saw that had a great defense, it took all of their best defenders missing major time for Bran to start capitilizing. So their argument is bullshit either way.

Besides Bogut (who played the majority of the games and whom GSW were much better without) which other "all of their best defenders" missed major time?

:lol

[3ball]

3ball,

Playing D1, especially if you were a wing player, is elite company for a baller. If you are going to make such a claim, what school/years did you attend? Can't make such a claim and not expect people on this board to inquire.


i'd private message photos but the mods have turned off my messaging

[tpols]

Besides Bogut (who played the majority of the games and whom GSW were much better without) which other "all of their best defenders" missed major time?

:lol

dont play dumb ..

and if you guys still dont understand bogut's impact on this team and his relative superiority over his replacements, there's no educating you. youre hopeless

[ClipperRevival]

i'd private message photos but the mods have turned off my messaging

Just tell us the school/years played and i'm sure we'll figure it out if you don't feel like giving your name, which I wouldn't do either.

[Dragonyeuw]

Besides Bogut (who played the majority of the games and whom GSW were much better without) which other "all of their best defenders" missed major time?

:lol

GSW went up 3-1 during the games he played in before the injury, and never won again after Draymond missed game 5, Iguodala's back went out in game 6, and Lebron remembered how to shoot in the last few games. Bogut was the interior deterrent, and the lane became a free-for-all once he went out. As great as Lebron closed out the series, it's completely dishonest to act like GS simply collapsed without any of those aforementioned factors.

[3ball]

Just tell us the school/years played and i'm sure we'll figure it out if you don't feel like giving your name, which I wouldn't do either.
yeah, i did that on 2+2 when i first started posting, and they figured out within 5 minutes who i was... so no... maybe you could go on there and ask someone tho

my posting history would reveal several posts where i talk intimately about teammates, but good luck finding them among the 12k that i have.. appreciate the interest tho

[aj1987]

You guys to realize that the "mighty" Bogut played ~10 minutes a game over the first 4 games, right?

[Indian guy]

GSW went up 3-1 during the games he played in before the injury

Ummm, he played the first half of Game 5 too, where LeBron scored 25 points.


and never won again after Draymond missed game 5

Couldn't win in Games 3, 6 & 7 with him on the floor either. All good to great games for LeBron.


Bogut was the interior deterrent, and the lane became a free-for-all once he went out.

How much of a deterrent could he have possibly been when he averaged 13 mpg the first 4 1/2 games of the series. And GS was -25 with him on the floor, just like they were in last year's Finals, where they benched him the last 3 games of the series after going down 2-1. Didn't just limit his time, but flat out benched him because he simply wasn't effective when on the court. Bogut is better than Ezeli, but there is overwhelming evidence that says he simply wasn't a factor against Cleveland over the last 2 years.


As great as Lebron closed out the series

The turning point for LeBron was showing confidence in his jumper, which is how Cleveland won Game 5 & 6. Nothing Bogut or Green could've done about that. As far as Iggy's back being bad for a half is concerned, give me a break. Kyrie scored 2 points in the 2nd half of Game 6 after twisting his ankle. Sh!t happens.

[riseagainst]

Michael Jordan v.s. #1 ranked defenses during championship years:

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

kuniva, I wish you'd meticulously read, respond, and breakdown every aspect of my other posts the way you did when I informed you that I played D1 for two schools

There's nothing left to respond. :confusedshrug:

You're a Grade-A bullshitter who does nothing but spam agenda topics. Every one of them is troll-ish. But why should I be surprised when you're on here...all f*cking day :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

The league is soft and everybody knows it. Stop deflecting.

[ArbitraryWater]

12 mpg through 5 gms Bogut sat twice :eek:

[NBAGOAT]

we might as well have a rewatch a final series thread during the offseason to see what people think since I'm pretty sure most of the games are on youtube. Problem is people are so agenda driven and the eye test can vary so much people can't even agree on what's going on in a game live.

[feyki]

Michael Jordan v.s. nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

[SamuraiSWISH]

Strawman?

Whoever said the '93 Suns were a great defense? Top 10 in the league that season but not good, let alone great. They were the best offensive team in the league. They had little rim protection.

Majerle was strong and tall but too slow laterally to guard Mike.

KJ was very quick laterally to negate the drive but MJ could shoot right over him.

Dumas was young, long, athletic but Jordan was smarter, and like when Thunder Dan guarded him could take him off the bounce quite easily.

The best defense that year besides the Bulls themselves was an all-time great Riley coached Knick team. Full of big, athletic bullies and great rim protection along with stellar perimeter defense.

[DoctorP]

The Suns were not known as a great defensive team. They were an uptempo, offensive team utilizing the skills of Barkley, KJ, Ainge and Majerle. Oliver Miller's career was temporarily resurrected on this team when he lost a lot of weight.

Again, The 93 Suns were known for their offense. Not defense. The Bulls were a better defensive team featuring Jordan and Pippen, two all-defensive stalwarts at the time.

[Dragonyeuw]

1)Couldn't win in Games 3, 6 & 7 with him on the floor either. All good to great games for LeBron.


2)The turning point for LeBron was showing confidence in his jumper, which is how Cleveland won Game 5 & 6. Nothing Bogut or Green could've done about that. As far as Iggy's back being bad for a half is concerned, give me a break. Kyrie scored 2 points in the 2nd half of Game 6 after twisting his ankle. Sh!t happens.

1)But they won 1,2,and 4 with him. Odds would have been long on the Cavs winning game 5 down 3-1 with Green playing at home having lost the last game in Cleveland, but I'll refrain from playing the what-if game. I get it though, we'll just ignore these various things because as a fan, you have to push the narrative that Lebron's greatness alone transcended the series and nothing else was of any influence whatsoever.

2) Which I gave credit for, and was a key factor. But shouldn't be looked at in a bubble by itself. As for Kyrie twisting his ankle, didn't really matter. Cavs had basically snatched the game by the end of the first period. The final 3 quarters were formality at that point.

[3ball]

Phoenix was not known for their defense


When considering how Lebron would play against the 1993 Suns, the Suns' defensive ranking (9th), is a far less important factor than the different brand of basketball being played in that era.

Lebron's teammates wouldn't be spacing the floor for him via 3-pointers in the 80's or 90's - the floor setup in those no-spacing environments was COMPLETELY different, so today's skillsets wouldn't be as effective back then.

Specifically, players in previous eras were forced to use their midrange jumpshot rather than get to the rim because the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to overcrowd the paint.. Here's a reminder of the standard setup in this gif (https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif) - penetration isn't possible, so Jordan must pull-up from midrange..

This is the primary reason Lebron would be worse back then - his lack of midrange shooting ability - virtually ALL great perimeter scorers in the 80's and 90's had great midrange (just look at the top 10 scorers from 1986 or any year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html) in the 80's or 90's - everyone had great midrange).. But in today's game, it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) that most of the top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.

[Dray n Klay]

LOL these Jordan stans are PATHETIC :oldlol:



Some of the worst trolling, agenda posting I've ever seen



Just admit your idol faced shit tier defenses :oldlol:

[3ball]

LOL these Jordan stans are PATHETIC :oldlol:

Some of the worst trolling, agenda posting I've ever seen

Just admit your idol faced shit tier defenses :oldlol:


look out for my next thread - it should shape-up your misperceptions

[Dragonyeuw]

LOL these Jordan stans are PATHETIC :oldlol:



Some of the worst trolling, agenda posting I've ever seen



Just admit your idol faced shit tier defenses :oldlol:


Coming from the worst troll on the forum.... :applause:

[CuterThanRubio]

yeah, i did that on 2+2 when i first started posting, and they figured out within 5 minutes who i was... so no... maybe you could go on there and ask someone tho

my posting history would reveal several posts where i talk intimately about teammates, but good luck finding them among the 12k that i have.. appreciate the interest tho

LMAO

ClippersRevival you just can't get over it can you, I'm living rent free with the ac blasting and music adjusted to a loud yet reasonable volume!

You are 5'3" and 40 years old melting down on forums, one can only hope you are joking around with us!

Then you have a guy who can make gifs for days but when you ask him to prove his ridiculous claims he acts like he doesn't know how to use a computer/phone, hilarious!

How difficult is it to cover your school name and face, are all Jordan fanboys delusional sociopaths?

Defense during the 90s was putrid, watch clips from any year and you will find much of the same things, lazy uninterested players unaware of what is happening on the court, shameful!

Did Andgar the idiot really say that LeBron would struggle to score against Dan Majerle?

Yes he did, I hope no one actually takes the time to read his long winded rants, hes delusional and blinded by nostalgia like the rest of them.

How can you deny visual evidence?

[CuterThanRubio]

https://s16.postimg.org/422mb0c7l/93_FINALS.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/422mb0c7l/)

https://s22.postimg.org/vi25v7r3h/93_FINALS2.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/vi25v7r3h/)

:coleman:

[ArbitraryWater]

https://s16.postimg.org/422mb0c7l/93_FINALS.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/422mb0c7l/)

https://s22.postimg.org/vi25v7r3h/93_FINALS2.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/vi25v7r3h/)

:coleman:

you make these?

[3ball]

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%




• 113 Ortg against Knicks
• 116 Ortg against Sonics
• 108 Ortg against Heat

Still great


Nice post.

PER POSSESSION efficiency (ortg) is more important than shooting efficiency - shooting efficiency falls under the UMBRELLA for per possession efficiency.

Jordan's turnovers were the lowest among top scorers, which is why his per possession efficiency was still great even in his worst-shooting series.

Also, ArbitraryWater listed Jordan's 3 worst playoff series of his career, where he averaged a combined 30/6/5 on 40% - that's FAR better than Lebron's worst series, where he averaged 18 ppg (2011 Finals), or 22 ppg on 35% (2007)... Or Kobe's where he averaged 15 ppg on 35% (2000 Finals), or 22 ppg on 37% (2004).

[ArbitraryWater]

Ortg as bailout? Lol

[3ball]

Ortg as bailout? Lol


Shooting efficiency falls under the UMBRELLA of per possession efficiency (ortg), therefore per possession efficiency is more important.

Jordan's turnovers were the lowest among top scorers, which is why his per possession efficiency was still great even in his worst-shooting series.

Also, you listed Jordan's 3 worst playoff series of his career, where he averaged a combined 30/6/5 on 40% - that's FAR better than Lebron's worst series, where he averaged 18 ppg (2011 Finals), or 22 ppg on 35% (2007)... Or Kobe's where he averaged 15 ppg on 35% (2000 Finals), or 22 ppg on 37% (2004).
.

[Hey Yo]

Shooting efficiency falls under the UMBRELLA for per possession efficiency (ortg), therefore per possession efficiency is more important.

Jordan's turnovers were the lowest among top scorers, which is why his per possession efficiency was still great even in his worst-shooting series.

Also, you listed Jordan's 3 worst playoff series of his career, where he averaged a combined 30/6/5 on 40% - that's FAR better than Lebron's worst series, where he averaged 18 ppg (2011 Finals), or 22 ppg on 35% (2007)... Or Kobe's where he averaged 15 ppg on 35% (2000 Finals), or 22 ppg on 37% (2004).
MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's

[3ball]

MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's


Lebron needed 4 extra seasons

so he can never match Jordan's championship frequency of 6/15, which is goat in the modern era (post 1960's).





MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's


Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals on far better efficiency, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

Those playoff stats are linked to bballref btw

[OldSchoolBBall]

Michael Jordan v.s. nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Let's not pretend that all three of those defenses (and the defensive attention MJ saw in those series) were not an order of magnitude greater than anything Lebron saw this postseason, and that Jordan was 33 and 34 years old for two of those series, and in the other one had a sprained wrist.

[Smoke117]

Michael Jordan v.s. nr.1 ranked defenses during championship years:

1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Setting aside that 54 point game...he averaged 27.8ppg on .352% (25 shot attempts a game) in the other 5 games vs the Knicks.

[3ball]

Setting aside that 54 point game...he averaged 27.8ppg on .352% (25 shot attempts a game) in the other 5 games vs the Knicks.


Good thing he had the GOAT 54-points in the series-tying game, and 29/10/14 (while thoroughly dominating the 4th) in the go-ahead game.

Otherwise, the Bulls would've been ****ed..

That's why Jordan is recognized as the most clutch player of all time.. Btw, in that series, Jordan led his team in points by 10 ppg and assists by 3 apg and also steals and blocks (tied in rebounds)





1993 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

1996 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

1997 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%


You listed Jordan's 3 worst playoff series of his career, where he averaged a combined 30/6/5 on 40% - that's FAR better than Lebron's worst series, where he averaged 18 ppg (2011 Finals), or 22 ppg on 35% (2007 Finals)...

Or Kobe's worst where he averaged 15 ppg on 35% (2000 Finals), or 22 ppg on 37% (2004).

The funny thing is that Lebron had his worst series against the 8th ranked defense (2011 Mavs), while Kobe had his worst against the 13th ranked defense (2000 Pacers)... At least Jordan had his worst series against the best defense in the league (and his stats were still twice as good as Kobe and Lebron's worst series against shitty defenses).