Only 4 Players Have Objective Arguments For Being The GOAT

[BeastMode24]

it doesn't mean that these guys are the 4 best players of all time in a particular order just saying that only these players could objectively be argued as the GOAT based on facts and objective arguments:

Jordan- 6/6 with 6 finals MVP. highest career ppg in history. highest scoring playoff game in history. goat clutch player
Russell- greatest winner in the history of team sports. 11 rings
Wilt- 100 point game, averaged 50/25 in a season, 30/22 for his career. GOAT stats
Kareem- GOAT Longevity. all time leading scorer + 6 rings.

[Nilocon165]

Kendrick Perkins?

[SomeBitterDude]

Russell is not in this discussion.

Respect all champions but if he had played in the 2000s he would have been Keon Clark.

Auerbach stayed stacking the deck to win every year.

[West-Side]

Jordan, Magic, Kobe & Kareem.

[ScalsFan21]

Honestly it's those four plus LeBron. I'm definitely not trying to turn this into a LeBron vs. other ATG thread, but I thought about that when I was skimming the "order of the top 10 doesn't matter as long as you know the list" thread.

You could make a case for any of Kareem, Wilt, Russell or LeBron, but all 4 cases do fall short of MJ's case. No player ever dominated an era the way Wilt did, no player ever won the way Bill did, Kareem's greatness and longevity was unprecedented, LeBron has a GOAT-tier positive on-court impact, along with his durability (and soon, longevity) matching up with that, just with less rings.

Outside of those guys there really are no players who have anything you can say to prop them up as "GOAT" candidates.

[West-Side]

LeBron has become the most overrated pile of crap in NBA history.
My god, Kyrie saves this clown in game 3 and GS faces a pile of injuries plus a suspension to Green and somehow this loser is now in Jordan's tier. :roll:

Look at it this way, this clown gets swept by GS if it isn't for Kyrie's masterful performance in game 3. Dude stat pads his entire career...even against GS, the dude only played well when his team had comfortable leads. Guy folds under pressure every time. He did that in game 7 and game 3. The two most important games of the series. In game 5&6, Cleveland took a commanding lead instantly and never looked back. So of course the clown had the confidence to play his A game when the pressure wasn't there.

Don't ever mention Mr. 3 for 7 next to someone like Jordan or Kareem. So damn disrespectful.

[gigantes]

agree that russell is not in the discussion. he was part of an ensemble cast that dominated an 8-team league.

disagree that kobe is a GOAT candidate. way too inefficient of a player, and wasn't even the best guy on his own team for three of his rings.

lebron-- probably got to add him. his stats are fantastic, and he wins every place he goes, even as the guy who does the heavy lifting. bonus pts for being one of the most unique players in the game.

[feyki]

Yes , clear as sky .

[RoundMoundOfReb]

- Username: BeastMode24

- Location: California

Verdict: Upset Kobe stan.

[West-Side]

agree that russell is not in the discussion. he was part of an ensemble cast that dominated an 8-team league.

disagree that kobe is a GOAT candidate. way too inefficient of a player, and wasn't even the best guy on his own team for three of his rings.

lebron-- probably got to add him. his stats are fantastic, and he wins every place he goes, even as the guy who does the heavy lifting. bonus pts for being one of the most unique players in the game.


:roll: The guy is 3 for 6 even with colluding.
Winner my ass.

[iamgine]

How bout Hakeem? Winning in a center dominated era twice with the worst team out of all the ATG.

Makes you wonder what would he do with Pippen/Grant/Phil Jackson as teammates/coach.

[Carbine]

Bill Russell deserves more respect than he has been given in this thread.

No one player is responsible for winning alone, but he has 11 of them. That doesn't happen just because of a great roster. There are stacked teams every year that don't win. Russell had the teams and he won 11 in 13 years, coached two of those 11 as well.

Come on now.

[fragokota]

MJ
Kareem
Magic

[Carbine]

He also finished his HS career with back to back titles and finishes his college career with back to back titles. Winning followed Russell.

Before he came to the Celtics they were a perennial playoff failure under Red. Yes, that Red.

Six straight years of first and second round exits, no finals appearances.

Then Russell came along and.......11 in 13 years. He's at the table with those other guys.

[Akrazotile]

- Username: BeastMode24

- Location: California

Verdict: Upset Kobe stan.


Hereby sentenced to a 12 year term of melting down..

Inmate #: 6.24

[Fudge]

Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Russell

All up there for GOAT.

[Akrazotile]

He also finished his HS career with back to back titles and finishes his college career with back to back titles. Winning followed Russell.

Before he came to the Celtics they were a perennial playoff failure under Red. Yes, that Red.

Six straight years of first and second round exits, no finals appearances.

Then Russell came along and.......11 in 13 years. He's at the table with those other guys.


Dude, there were 8 teams in the league. It's not that impressive to be on the best one and win a bunch of times. They were playing against the teams like the Rochester Locomotives. Most players in the league sold phonograph machines and delivered crates of milk bottles during the day before tipoff.

You simply cannot compare that to LeThick's achievements in a world where hundreds of millions of athletes around the world train their asses off as youth and the best of the best are spread around a 30 team league, with only one possible winner each year.

[zeerghit]

Jordan, Magic, Kobe & Kareem.

can i hear the arguments?

[kentatm]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TCw7PyZdqYM/U09gKy6G9cI/AAAAAAAAF5o/mWWl-euNwr8/s1600/GameOfDeath-KareemAbdulJabbar-01-400-sg.gif

[Doranku]

Dude, there were 8 teams in the league. It's not that impressive to be on the best one and win a bunch of times. They were playing against the teams like the Rochester Locomotives. Most players in the league sold phonograph machines and delivered crates of milk bottles during the day before tipoff.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Big164]

30.12
100
11

^^^Those are your GOATS.If you need words to explain why someone is the greatest you are reaching too hard.

[gigantes]

:roll: The guy is 3 for 6 even with colluding.
Winner my ass.
i don't know about your ass being a winner. is that like saying that you sit on your brains?

i also see that you don't know what the word "colluding" means. that's okay. but i can tell you that lebron being a FA and joining other stars on another team has happened before and will certainly happen again.



Dude, there were 8 teams in the league. It's not that impressive to be on the best one and win a bunch of times. They were playing against the teams like the Rochester Locomotives. Most players in the league sold phonograph machines and delivered crates of milk bottles during the day before tipoff.

You simply cannot compare that to LeThick's achievements in a world where hundreds of millions of athletes around the world train their asses off as youth and the best of the best are spread around a 30 team league, with only one possible winner each year.
i... i didn't know you had it in you, sir. bravo. :cheers:

[Big164]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDtKkwqWoAAcMJo.png

[KirbyPls]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDtKkwqWoAAcMJo.png

22.5 playoff ppg :lol

[bdreason]

Kareem, MJ, Russell, and Wilt are the top 4 of all-time, and the only players you can make a reasonable argument for as GOAT.

[kamil]

Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Russell

All up there for GOAT.

LeBron* and his lone single earned championship doesn't get him in the top 5 ranking.

Collusion deserves no recognition.

[KirbyPls]

Kareem, MJ, Russell, and Wilt are the top 4 of all-time, and the only players you can make a reasonable argument for as GOAT.

How does Wilt still hold up? He seems to be the one player that postseason success and stats are not weighted as heavily against him as others.

IMO, Lebron, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Kobe should be above him. He had great stats that were inflated by era, and he was very mortal in the playoffs in general, and the Finals in particular.

If we hold Lebron, Kobe, and others to the standards we do, Wilt's significant statistical drop-off and relative lack of success in the postseason should remove him from GOAT consideration.

[Bankaii]

Jordan, Magic, Kobe & Kareem.
:roll:

You have 3 posts on the first page alone melting down about Lebron.
Then you go and post this bullshit. Knowing Lebron is clearly better than Kobe.

[Bankaii]

Jordan and Kareem are the only 2. And MJ is still pretty clearly the GOAT.

Russell has a lot of rings, but as an individual player he isn't that great, and on the bottom half on the GOAT list on talent alone. Besides why do some players get hate for having "stacked teams" when Russell had the most stacked team of all-time with respect to his era.

Wilt has the stats but his horrible performances in the postseason hurt him. You can't call him GOAT with 2 rings then dismiss Lebron/Shaq and use the ring argument.

[NumberSix]

Bill Russell deserves more respect than he has been given in this thread.

No one player is responsible for winning alone, but he has 11 of them. That doesn't happen just because of a great roster. There are stacked teams every year that don't win. Russell had the teams and he won 11 in 13 years, coached two of those 11 as well.

Come on now.
Do people not realize that Bill Russell played in an era where the Boston Celtics was the only team in the NBA that didn't have a "don't have too many blacks on the team" policy?

Seriously, how many titles would LeBron win if every team in the NBA except Cleveland had a majority white roster policy?

[tmacattack33]

Lebron's overall impact was something never seen before. That could certainly be used to argue him over MJ.

Cavs were great...Lebron left...Cavs sucked...Lebron came back...Cavs were great again

Miami sucked...Lebron came...They were great...Lebron left...Miami sucked

Compared to Jordan leaving and the Bulls coming one game away from the ECF.


And Lebron may have taken the two worst supporting casts in history to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 (with Irving and Love injured).

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron has become the most overrated pile of crap in NBA history.
My god, Kyrie saves this clown in game 3 and GS faces a pile of injuries plus a suspension to Green and somehow this loser is now in Jordan's tier. :roll:

Look at it this way, this clown gets swept by GS if it isn't for Kyrie's masterful performance in game 3. Dude stat pads his entire career...even against GS, the dude only played well when his team had comfortable leads. Guy folds under pressure every time. He did that in game 7 and game 3. The two most important games of the series. In game 5&6, Cleveland took a commanding lead instantly and never looked back. So of course the clown had the confidence to play his A game when the pressure wasn't there.

Don't ever mention Mr. 3 for 7 next to someone like Jordan or Kareem. So damn disrespectful.

Meltdown

4 MVP's/3 FMVP's > 1 MVP/2 FMVP's

[gigantes]

And Lebron may have taken the two worst supporting casts in history to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 (with Irving and Love injured).
yup... you just can't please some people.

two of the greatest playoff performances of all time in a doomed effort, but the haters gleefully ignore all that and stick with the "2/7 while colluding" storyline. oh, oops... i guess it's 3/7, huh?

hey... so what ever happened to all you joyful people chanting 2/7 over and over? did your bandwagon go over a cliff? :(

[allball]

LeBron has become the most overrated pile of crap in NBA history.
My god, Kyrie saves this clown in game 3 and GS faces a pile of injuries plus a suspension to Green and somehow this loser is now in Jordan's tier. :roll:

Look at it this way, this clown gets swept by GS if it isn't for Kyrie's masterful performance in game 3. Dude stat pads his entire career...even against GS, the dude only played well when his team had comfortable leads. Guy folds under pressure every time. He did that in game 7 and game 3. The two most important games of the series. In game 5&6, Cleveland took a commanding lead instantly and never looked back. So of course the clown had the confidence to play his A game when the pressure wasn't there.

Don't ever mention Mr. 3 for 7 next to someone like Jordan or Kareem. So damn disrespectful.

How many championships did Kareem win as the best player on his team? How many times in his prime did he fail to reach the finals?

Kareem was 32 by the time he won his 2nd finals in 80.

What about 72, 73, 74 and 77 when he didn't reach the finals with good teams?

How do you compare the talent Kareem played with on the 80s Lakers with the talent Lebron has played with?

[Nuff Said]

Dude, there were 8 teams in the league. It's not that impressive to be on the best one and win a bunch of times. They were playing against the teams like the Rochester Locomotives. Most players in the league sold phonograph machines and delivered crates of milk bottles during the day before tipoff.

You simply cannot compare that to LeThick's achievements in a world where hundreds of millions of athletes around the world train their asses off as youth and the best of the best are spread around a 30 team league, with only one possible winner each year.
So you're faulting him for doing what he was supposed to do? Win? I mean what more do you want other than 11 titles, 5 mvps (during a wilt dominated era), and the ****in finals mvp named after him? I mean really. What more does he need to do for you to accept this guy has a strong case for best ever. Dude won on all levels of basketball.

[gigantes]

So you're faulting him for doing what he was supposed to do? Win? I mean what more do you want other than 11 titles, 5 mvps (during a wilt dominated era), and the ****in finals mvp named after him? I mean really. What more does he need to do for you to accept this guy has a strong case for best ever. Dude won on all levels of basketball.
what if he's not faulting russell at all? what if he's simply noticing the facts of the situation?

is a big fish in a little pond necessarily equal to the biggest fish in the ocean...?

[ArbitraryWater]

Meltdown

4 MVP's/3 FMVP's > 1 MVP/2 FMVP's

my god... he wrote all that? Some people cant fall any lower can they

you really see who the worst kobetards are, that still wont change and see whats infront of them :lol

brans, westside, 43-42 footwork/hoop city jones, basically posters who believe Kobe would have swept the Warriors or won in 5... lol.

Their reasonings are very weak, usually be like 'Kobe better at neutralizing teammates skill' (hoop city jones'), or random ass arrow comparisons on TT/Love/Irving against Bynum/Odom/Gasol (brans), like the shape of the league, 08-10 competition, mirrors the current West.. lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

my god... he wrote all that? Some people cant fall any lower can they

you really see who the worst kobetards are, that still wont change and see whats infront of them :lol

brans, westside, 43-42 footwork/hoop city jones, basically posters who believe Kobe would have swept the Warriors or won in 5... lol.

Their reasonings are very weak, usually be like 'Kobe better at neutralizing teammates skill' (hoop city jones'), or random ass arrow comparisons on TT/Love/Irving against Bynum/Odom/Gasol (brans), like the shape of the league, 08-10 competition, mirrors the current West.. lol.

The funniest part is I bet that buffoon gives Kobe full credit for his first 3 titles, yet diminishes LeBron when he leads both teams in every single stat and wins FMVP

[feyki]

How many championships did Kareem win as the best player on his team? How many times in his prime did he fail to reach the finals?

Kareem was 32 by the time he won his 2nd finals in 80.

What about 72, 73, 74 and 77 when he didn't reach the finals with good teams?

How do you compare the talent Kareem played with on the 80s Lakers with the talent Lebron has played with?

77 Lakers and good team .....

[Big164]

IMO, Lebron, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Kobe should be above him. He had great stats that were inflated by era, and he was very mortal in the playoffs in general, and the Finals in particular.


There are literally dozens and dozens of players with 3 rings. Id be here all day naming them all. But 100, 50.4, 22.89 rpg.. Its a tad harder to do, Yes its regular season, and yes its far more impressive.

[AintNoSunshine]

it doesn't mean that these guys are the 4 best players of all time in a particular order just saying that only these players could objectively be argued as the GOAT based on facts and objective arguments:

Jordan- 6/6 with 6 finals MVP. highest career ppg in history. highest scoring playoff game in history. goat clutch player
Russell- greatest winner in the history of team sports. 11 rings
Wilt- 100 point game, averaged 50/25 in a season, 30/22 for his career. GOAT stats
Kareem- GOAT Longevity. all time leading scorer + 6 rings.


I don't think Wilt has a case at all. Didn't win nearly enough despite averaging crazy stats against inferior competition.

Even Lebron has a better case.

[Nuff Said]

what if he's not faulting russell at all? what if he's simply noticing the facts of the situation?

is a big fish in a little pond necessarily equal to the biggest fish in the ocean...?
But he's accomplished so much more than any player not named Jordan or Kareem. A big fish in a little pond is still a damn big fish. Are we gonna say "oh well it's not that big since the pond is small?" I mean he dominated during Wilt's era. Even won more mvp's than him. Was the best player on a winning team prolly even more times than Jordan. To say that someone who hasn't accomplished more than he has is to be considered better is crazy imo. But hey, this is the world we're living in.

[gigantes]

But he's accomplished so much more than any player not named Jordan or Kareem. A big fish in a little pond is still a damn big fish. Are we gonna say "oh well it's not that big since the pond is small?" I mean he dominated during Wilt's era. Even won more mvp's than him. Was the best player on a winning team prolly even more times than Jordan. To say that someone who hasn't accomplished more than he has is to be considered better is crazy imo. But hey, this is the world we're living in.
not when you drop it in the ocean, and that's what you're doing when you include russell in GOAT talks.

i agree that russell was indeed highly valuable to his team, but what akrozletiddle said is also true-- accomplishments made on the most ridiculously stacked team in a tiny league have to be taken with a grain of salt.

russell has to balance his team accomplishments with individual stats, and he just isn't in the same league with others, fairly or unfairly.

i think you could make a similar argument about wilt-- that his individual stats are mind-blowing, but his team accomplishments suffer by comparison. but "the GOAT" is more of an individual award IMO, so i have to lean towards wilt over russell being on that list.