Counting the number of contested shots made by Jordan and Lebron

[3ball]

.
Contested shots are when a defender leaves his feet to contest the shot




JORDAN - Game 4 of 1993 Finals





CONTESTED SHOTS (18)





1) catch-and-shoot jumper, midrange (0:20)
2) catch-and-shoot jumper midrange (0:31)
3) post-up turnaround jumper, midrange (0:37)
4) post-up turnaround jumper, midrange (0:48)
5) triple-threat pull-up jumper, midrange (0:55)
6) drive to rim via triple threat (1:02)
7) transition drive to rim (1:11)
8) drive to rim via triple-threat (2:09)
9) post-up turnaround jumper, midrange (2:48)
10) catch-and-shoot jumper, midrange (3:04)
11) pull-up jumper via triple-threat, midrange (3:13)
12) coast-to-coast and1 dunk (3:23)
13) pull-up jumper via live-dribble, midrange (3:53)
14) coast-to-coast and1 layup (4:05)
15) drive to rim via triple-threat (4:27)
16) pull-up jumper via triple-threat, midrange (5:39)
17) drive to the rim via live dribble (6:16)
18) drive to the rim via triple-threat (7:14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dwcaYkGTTE





UNCONTESTED SHOTS (3)




1) drives thru 3 awaiting paint defenders for uncontested dunk (1:58)
2) pull-up jumper via triple-threat, midrange (5:46)
3) coast-to-coast layup (6:03)






LEBRON - Game 6 of 2016 Finals





CONTESTED SHOTS (9)





1) pull-up 3-pointer isolation, live dribble (2:37)
2) transition drive to rim (3:02)
3) catch-and-go drive to rim (4:00)
4) pull-up 3-pointer via screen, live dribble (4:56)
5) pull-up floater in paint, live dribble (5:18)
6) offensive reb putback (5:43)
7) pull-up jumper via screen, live dribble (5:49)
8) post-up turnaround, midrange (6:36)
9 pull-up 3-pointer, live dribble (8:12)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJEG7fcUn-s





UNCONTESTED SHOTS (7)




1) transition dunk (1:08)
2) post-up turnaround, in paint (1:25)
3) open dunk in transition (1:39)
4) drive to rim via screen and live-dribble (2:05)
5) cut to rim for dunk (3:43)
6) transition alley-oop (4:09)
7) receives pass for open layup (6:08)



Comments on the data:

Lebron took less contested shots, in part because he took advantage of the spacing created by his 3-point shooting teammates.. Jordan didn't have the luxury of spacing, so defenders were in closer proximity and his shots were more contested - superior midrange shooting ability kept his efficiency the same as Lebron's despite the superior contests.


Key differences in the defense:

Today's defenders must scramble around and be more active because the 3-point shooting spaces them out and forces them to cover more ground.

In previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to be bunched up and in closer proximity to each other, so they didn't have to move much to help - this makes it look like defenders are standing around, even though that's the standard when it only takes a step or two to help - today's defenders would "stand around" too if there wasn't much 3-point shooting.

After all, how much do the Celtics defenders NEED to move here - with no 3-point shooting to spread them out, standing around is all they need to do - today's game would play the SAME WAY if there was no 3-point shooting:

https://media.giphy.com/media/10RuiINsEB5SHm/giphy.gif

[Nilocon165]

http://rs623.pbsrc.com/albums/tt320/misha5150/Funny%20GIFs/yawn-o.gif~c200

[FireDavidKahn]

Curry got destroyed. Deal with it.

[ralph_i_el]

um, how about counting free-throws as contested shots? The opponent must contest the shot to draw a foul.

Also, getting uncontested shot are better than getting contested shots.

[Smoke117]

:sleeping :sleeping :sleeping

[bigkingsfan]

Offensive foul.

[3ball]

.
When considering how Lebron would play against the 1993 Suns, the Suns' defensive ranking (9th, same as 2011 Mavs, better than OKC in 2012), is far less important than the different brand of basketball being played in that era.

Lebron would need to adjust, since his teammates wouldn't be spacing the floor for him via 3-pointers in the 80's or 90's - the floor setup in those no-spacing environments was COMPLETELY different, so today's skillsets wouldn't be as effective back then.

Specifically, players in previous eras were forced to use their midrange jumpshot rather than get to the rim because the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to overcrowd the paint.. Here's a reminder of the standard setup in this gif (https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif) - penetration isn't possible, so Jordan must pull-up from midrange..

This is the primary reason Lebron would be worse back then - his lack of midrange shooting ability - virtually ALL great perimeter scorers in the 80's and 90's had great midrange (just look at the top 10 scorers from 1986 or any year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html) in the 80's or 90's - everyone had great midrange).. But in today's game, it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) that most of the top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.
.

[Living Being]

3ball putting LeStans into denial mode as usual.

https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1407258269ra/10664131.gif

[Hey Yo]

MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's

[J Shuttlesworth]

So you're saying LeBron is better/smarter at getting away from defenders? Cool

[Living Being]

MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's
You at age 31....0MVP's, 1 couch in mom's basement, 1 box of tissues

[Trollsmasher]

I love how you can push 3ball into 5 hours of ballwatching and gif making by typing in a 5 second shitpost:lol

[Hey Yo]

You at age 31....0MVP's, 1 couch in mom's basement, 1 box of tissues
All I did was post FACTS.

Facts piss you off????

[3ball]

To Lebron's credit, nearly all of his shots were contested in Game 5.

But as the OP shows, nearly all of Jordan's shots were contested in his 55 point game, which was twice as many as Lebron's 41 point Game 6 (both games were at home).

[CuterThanRubio]

3ball is counting shots like this as "contested"

(:22)

https://s31.postimg.org/gcxpg3s7b/hello.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gcxpg3s7b/)

That defender was so late to the party, nice try though!

You are nothing but a troll, its fun exposing your BS, and it seems like you are purposely serving up alley oops at this point, props for supporting the cause!

[ShawkFactory]

I see we've strayed away from steph and are now back completely to Lebron threads :lol

What a weird and pointless crusade you're on.

[3ball]

MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's


Lebron needed 4 extra seasons

so he can never match Jordan's championship frequency of 6/15, which is goat in the modern era (post 1960's).





MJ at age 31....3MVP's, 3 titles and 3FMVP

LeBron at age 31.....4MVP's, 3titles and 3MVP's


Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan scores 25% more in the playoffs and 33% more in the Finals on far better efficiency, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close.

Those playoff stats are linked to bballref btw

[3ball]

3ball is counting shots like this as "contested"

(:22)

https://s31.postimg.org/gcxpg3s7b/hello.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gcxpg3s7b/)


That defender was so late to the party, nice try though!


Lebron made 7 shots where the defender was SO late that they couldn't jump/contest AT ALL!!!

That's the whole point of the thread - to show that Lebron's defenders were so late (due to the spacing), that they could only contest 9 of his 16 shots, compared to 18 of 21 for Jordan (no spacing).

[Sarcastic]

3ball could've cured cancer if he used all the time he spends destroying Bran Stans looking for a cure.

[andgar923]

Here's the thing.

MJ has the ability to get good looks, whereas Bron doesn't. Bron stands in one spot for most of his possessions whereas MJ is constantly moving without the ball.

When they do get the ball, Bron dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, dribbles.

MJ on the other hand catches ball, surveys and makes a move 2-3 dribbles tops but with the motion of making a move, unwasted time and movement.

In doing so, MJ catches the defense off guard, avoids possible double and triple teams and gets better looks.

Most of Bron's open shots come from kick backs.
Most of Bron's contested shots come as a result of him not being able to create better looks for himself.

[andgar923]

Defenders being late is gonna happen.

It's a result of ball movement and spacing.

BUT a major difference is....

MJ himself moves without the ball to get open looks. Whereas Bron is a recipient of someone else's creation. Bron stands in one spot for the vast majority of the time.

And that's a huge difference and a testament of their skill, court vision and awareness.

[Uncle Drew]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads9/5771c08d33cdf/5771c08d251ef-Screen_Shot_2016-06-28_at_02.10.53.png

lmao, that's a contested shot according to 2ball.

[CuterThanRubio]

Defenders being late is gonna happen.

It's a result of ball movement and spacing.

BUT a major difference is....

MJ himself moves without the ball to get open looks. Whereas Bron is a recipient of someone else's creation. Bron stands in one spot for the vast majority of the time.

And that's a huge difference and a testament of their skill, court vision and awareness.

:coleman:

You don't know when to stop, do you?

LeBron is a recipient?

Since when?


He's led his team in total assists EVERY SINGLE SEASON HE HAS PLAYED, end of fvcking story!

MJ was running off of screens and posting up smaller players in the 93 finals

The great defensive stopper Dan Majerle vs FMVP Igoudala, NO COMPARISON!

LeBron creates off the dribble, he doesn't need screens like Jordan did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzcUmtu_Hs8

^Watch him work!

Seems strange that a player who is the "recipient of someone else's creation" is on pace to become the all time leading scorer in NBA history.

How are you going to spin that one!?

:hammerhead:

[andgar923]

:coleman:

You don't know when to stop, do you?

LeBron is a recipient?

Since when?


He's led his team in total assists EVERY SINGLE SEASON HE HAS PLAYED, end of fvcking story!

MJ was running off of screens and posting up smaller players in the 93 finals

The great defensive stopper Dan Majerle vs FMVP Igoudala, NO COMPARISON!

LeBron creates off the dribble, he doesn't need screens like Jordan did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzcUmtu_Hs8

^Watch him work!

Seems strange that a player who is the "recipient of someone else's creation" is on pace to become the all time leading scorer in NBA history.

How are you going to spin that one!?

:hammerhead:

Apparently reading comprehension and context isn't your strong suit.

[plowking]

Apparently reading comprehension and context isn't your strong suit.

Creative bullshit story-writing is clearly your strong suit.

[tpols]

LeBron creates off the dribble, he doesn't need screens like Jordan did!



http://quotesblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/happygif.gif

[Hey Yo]

andgar923, ruined by B2B posts

:oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

Nice, so Lebron has better ability to get himself an open look than MJ.

Another win in the book for the King. :rockon:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

3ball is counting shots like this as "contested"

(:22)

https://s31.postimg.org/gcxpg3s7b/hello.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gcxpg3s7b/)

That defender was so late to the party, nice try though!

You are nothing but a troll, its fun exposing your BS, and it seems like you are purposely serving up alley oops at this point, props for supporting the cause!
Was just about to post exactly this. Thought i'd give him a shot and watch the highlights - 1st one is a WIDE OPEN free throw line jumper for MJ. LOL

stopped watching.

[TheReal Kendall]

Op you be coming with facts but damn son you got way too much time on your hands.

LeBron won't pass Jordan so you ain't got anything to worry about.

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l46Cg7Wd6tWYWsWVa/giphy.gif


1st one is a WIDE OPEN free throw line jumper for MJ. LOL

stopped watching.


As you can see, that shot was contested.

A contested shot is defined as when a defender (any defender) leaves his feet to contest the shot.. So even though Dumas was late on that play, he wasn't SO late that he couldn't jump/contest the shot.

Otoh, Lebron had 7 shots where the defenders didn't jump/contest the shot AT ALL... Does that make sense?... They were SO late, that they couldn't jump/contest like Dumas did.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).





Thought i'd give him a shot and watch the highlights


Btw, Jordan moved off-ball and had a bunch of catch-and-shoots, which by definition, are designed to make the defender late in contesting.

Lebron doesn't play off-ball or do catch-and-shoots, so he cannot benefit from this style of play.. Guys like JJ Redick are in the league because catch-and-shoot is a viable way to play basketball.
.

[bigkingsfan]

Difference between a contested shot and just having your hands up in the vicinity.

[3ball]

Difference between a contested shot and just having your hands up in the vicinity.


Agreed - a real contest is when the defender leaves his feet to contest the shot.

Lebron only had 9 such shots where a defender left their feet, compared to 18 for Jordan... And Lebron had 7 uncontested shots (where no one left their feet), compared to only 3 for Jordan.

[bigkingsfan]

Agreed - a real contest is when the defender leaves his feet to contest the shot.

Lebron only had 9 such shots where a defender left their feet, compared to 18 for Jordan... And Lebron had 7 uncontested shots (where no one left their feet), compared to only 3 for Jordan.
A real contest is when the defender alters your original shooting motion. You think shooters like Curry give a damn about a hand in his face, especially a late one.

[3ball]

A real contest is when the defender alters your original shooting motion. You think shooters like Curry give a damn about a hand in his face, especially a late one.


Sorry, but NBA.com's player-tracking stats prove that isn't the case - over 70% of Curry's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room.

Specifically, NBA.com's stats show that 5.2 of Curry's 3-point attempts each game were "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender), and 2.7 were "very open" (6+ feet).. That's exactly 70.0% of Curry's 3-point attempts that were taken with 4+ feet of room (11.2 total attempts per game).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


Curry's 3-pointers are open for the same reason Lebron's shots are more open than Jordan's - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

[bigkingsfan]

Sorry, but NBA.com's player-tracking stats prove that isn't the case - over 70% of Curry's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room.

Specifically, NBA.com's stats show that 5.2 of Curry's 3-point attempts each game were "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender), and 2.7 were "very open" (6+ feet).. That's exactly 70.0% of Curry's 3-point attempts (11.2 total attempts per game).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=CLOSE_DEF_DIST_RANGE&dir=1
Of course he's going to have more room to shoot the ball when he's farther out vs a traditional two point shooter. By this logic every single Shaq shot is contested.

[CuterThanRubio]

A real contest is when the defender alters your original shooting motion. You think shooters like Curry give a damn about a hand in his face, especially a late one.

A hand in the face has an effect on shooting, the thing is Jordan rarely had a hand obscuring his vision enough to alter his release, Majerle and Kevin Johnson were never interfering with his natural mechanics, LeBron and Curry, especially Curry, are facing tighter defenses and therefore qualify as greater shooters.

(Don't forget Kobe, the best bad shot maker in NBA history, better than Jordan? I'm leaning that way as time goes on)

[3ball]

3ball is counting shots like this as "contested"

(:22)

https://media.giphy.com/media/l46Cg7Wd6tWYWsWVa/giphy.gif


That defender was late to the party, nice try though!


As you can see, that shot was contested.

A contested shot is defined as when a defender (any defender) leaves his feet to contest the shot.. So even though Dumas was late on that play, he wasn't SO late that he couldn't jump/contest the shot.

Otoh, Lebron had 7 shots where the defenders didn't jump/contest the shot AT ALL... Does that make sense?... They were SO late, that they couldn't jump/contest like Dumas did.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

[bigkingsfan]

A hand in the face has an effect on shooting, the thing is Jordan rarely had a hand obscuring his vision enough to alter his release, Majerle and Kevin Johnson were never interfering with his natural mechanics, LeBron and Curry, especially Curry, are facing tighter defenses and therefore qualify as greater shooters.

(Don't forget Kobe, the best bad shot maker in NBA history, better than Jordan? I'm leaning that way as time goes on)
If it alters the shooting motion, then yes.
Agreed with the bolded.

[3ball]

LeBron and Curry, especially Curry, are facing tighter defenses and therefore qualify as greater shooters.


You're just trolling now - the OP shows that Lebron had more shots where NO defenders jumped to contest.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

So you're proven wrong and look silly trying to say things that fly in the face of the facts.

Btw, are you just going to ignore the previous post (#18)?

[3ball]

Of course he's going to have more room to shoot the ball when he's farther out vs a traditional two point shooter.


The OP shows that Jordan made more shots where a defender jumped to contest than Lebron did.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

Don't be surprise that Lebron and Curry's shots are more open than Jordan's - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

[CuterThanRubio]

You're just trolling now - the OP shows that Lebron had more shots where NO defenders jumped to contest.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

So you're proven wrong and look silly trying to say things that fly in the face of the facts.

Btw, are you just going to ignore the previous post (#18)?

I never ignored your post, I addressed it previously.

That Jordan jumper was NOT contested, we need a stricter definition of the criteria before attempting to take any of your nonsense seriously, you can't move the goalposts only when they favor your garbage, but who am I kidding.

LeBron's best shooting games are greater than Jordan's, FACT!

And Curry's resume speaks for itself, Jordan would get laughed out of the gym in a competition between them!

[bigkingsfan]

The OP shows that Jordan made more shots where a defender jumped to contest than Lebron did.

Overall, Jordan had 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

Don't be surprise that Lebron and Curry's shots are more open than Jordan's - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.
Stats also show a three point shot is more difficult than a two point.
So Curry, Lebron, Kobe > MJ

[3ball]

we need a stricter definition of the criteria...

you can't move the goalposts


Dumas left his feet to contest the shot, which is better than Lebron's 7 shots where NO defender left their feet to contest his shot.

The facts are what they are - Jordan made more shots where defenders jumped to contest than Lebron did, and less shots where no one jumped to contest.

Specifically, Jordan made 18 shots where a defender jumped/contested his shot (compared to 9 for Lebron), and 3 where no one jumped/contested (compared to 7 for Lebron).

Btw, I haven't moved any goal posts - the definition of "contested" has been the same throughout the thread (a defender must leave his feet/jump to contest) - you're just dodging and weaving to avoid the fact that Jordan took more contested shots.
.

[3ball]

Stats also show a three point shot is more difficult than a two point.
So Curry, Lebron, Kobe > MJ


3-pointers are scored in mostly 1 way - catch-and-shoot... Otoh, 2-pointers are scored in infinitely more diverse ways - Curry and Lebron can't make a fraction of the two-pointers that Jordan was capable of.

Superior 2-point ability is part of the reason the Cavs won - they made 52 more two-point FG's than the Warriors, and also shot more FT's.

It's funny how little people know about the game - if you can't watch Jordan and see that he's the best, than you don't know shit about the game.. Bulldozing through guys doesn't always work and it can be shut down or made a non-factor - but true skill can't.

[bigkingsfan]

3-pointers are scored in mostly 1 way - catch-and-shoot... Otoh, 2-pointers are scored in infinitely more diverse ways - Curry and Lebron can't make a fraction of the two-pointers that Jordan was capable of.

Superior 2-point ability is part of the reason the Cavs won - they made 52 more two-point FG's than the Warriors, and also shot more FT's.

It's funny how little people know about the game - if you can't watch Jordan and see that he's the best, than you don't know shit about the game.. Bulldozing through guys doesn't always work and it can be shut down or made a non-factor - but true skill can't.
OKC did the same too, guess what they lost.

Three point so easy, yet Jordan was pedestrian throughout his career...

[3ball]

Three point so easy, yet Jordan was pedestrian throughout his career...


So is Lebron - he shot 30% on 3-pointers in 2016 regular season and only 32% for his playoff career.. Lebron is even worse from midrange - he shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17)..

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency (they can't shoot), but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange efficiency than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

[bigkingsfan]

So is Lebron - he shot 30% on 3-pointers in 2016 regular season and only 32% for his playoff career.. Lebron is even worse from midrange - he shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17)..

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency (they can't shoot), but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange efficiency than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

Lebron is a mediocre three point shooter, yet he's still better than Jordan.

[3ball]

Lebron is a mediocre three point shooter, yet he's still better than Jordan.


Lebron simply TAKES MORE threes, but his efficiency isn't better.

It's just like Jordan said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iuDTsLZUfo&t=6m50s) about Drexler right before the 1992 Finals:

"Drexler is a better 3-point shooter than i CHOOSE to be"

Jordan knew that 3-pointers were a gimmick and that too much focus on them was exploitable, as the Warriors found out against OKC and the Cavs.. Every team in the league will now watch tape of those 2 series, which will greatly reduce the Warriors' ability to dominate next year..

Btw, in those 1992 Finals, Jordan also said he didn't want to excel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s) at 3-pointers because it took away from his game.. But just look at his flawless, GOAT form - he could've been an elite 3-point shooter if he focused on it like today's player, which is why he set the Finals record for 3's in a half when Portland tested him and his team needed it

[bigkingsfan]

Lebron simply TAKES MORE threes, but his efficiency isn't better.

It's just like Jordan said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iuDTsLZUfo&t=6m50s) about Drexler right before the 1992 Finals:

"Drexler is a better 3-point shooter than i CHOOSE to be"

Jordan knew that 3-pointers were a gimmick and that too much focus on them was exploitable, as the Warriors found out against OKC and the Cavs.. Every team in the league will now watch tape of those 2 series, which will greatly reduce the Warriors' ability to dominate next year..

Btw, in those 1992 Finals, Jordan also said he didn't want to excel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s) at 3-pointers because it took away from his game.. But just look at his flawless, GOAT form - he could've been an elite 3-point shooter if he focused on it like today's player, which is why he set the Finals record for 3's in a half when Portland tested him and his team needed it
Then proceeded to go ice cold and made six more additional threes the rest of the series.

[CuterThanRubio]

he could've been an elite 3-point shooter if he focused on it like today's player, which is why he set the Finals record for 3's in a half when Portland tested him and his team needed it

I have long exposed that game, every one of those threes was COMPLETELY UNCONTESTED!


http://s7.postimg.org/6bam9ye1j/open.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6bam9ye1j/)

http://s29.postimg.org/nyye22gab/JOKE.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/nyye22gab/)


http://s11.postimg.org/7iycc3r8f/wtf.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7iycc3r8f/)

http://s18.postimg.org/chyt3z8ad/why.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/chyt3z8ad/)


http://s30.postimg.org/htwopg3rx/hello.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/htwopg3rx/)


http://s10.postimg.org/jjn9v87ol/illustrate.jpg[/url

^
Absolutely shameful defense, allowing the top player in the league to shoot wide open without bothering to raise an arm!

[Bawkish]

I have long exposed that game, every one of those threes was COMPLETELY UNCONTESTED!










^
Absolutely shameful defense, allowing the top player in the league to shoot wide open without bothering to raise an arm!

um, because he was not known as a great 3pt. shooter?

[3ball]

Then proceeded to go ice cold and made six more additional threes the rest of the series.


Jordan shot 41% from 3-point range in the 1991-1993 Finals.

[3ball]

http://s7.postimg.org/6bam9ye1j/open.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6bam9ye1j/)

http://s29.postimg.org/nyye22gab/JOKE.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/nyye22gab/)

http://s11.postimg.org/7iycc3r8f/wtf.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7iycc3r8f/)

http://s18.postimg.org/chyt3z8ad/why.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/chyt3z8ad/)

http://s30.postimg.org/htwopg3rx/hello.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/htwopg3rx/)

http://s10.postimg.org/jjn9v87ol/illustrate.jpg[/url

^
Absolutely shameful defense, allowing the top player in the league to shoot wide open without bothering to raise an arm!


You're lying - Cliff Robinson jumped to contest Jordan's "shrug" shot, but you paused it right before he left his feet.. You did that with all but 2 of the pictures you posted.

Otoh, Lebron had 7 shots in Game 6 where no defender left their feet to contest his shot - that's what I showed in the OP - Lebron had far more shots where no defender jumped/contested his shot than Jordan, and far less shots where defenders DID leave their feet to contest.. It's clear as day.

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan shot 41% from 3-point range in the 1991-1993 Finals.
That's why I said the "rest" of the series.

6/9 first half, 6/19 after that, basically his career %.

[3ball]

That's why I said the "rest" of the series.

6/9 first half, 6/19 after that, basically his career %.


Exactly, which is the same as Lebron's career %

Lebron just took more of these low percentage shots because he's dumb compared to Jordan

[bigkingsfan]

Exactly, which is the same as Lebron's career %
It's below Lebron career %, no one considers him a good three point shooter anyways, well Jordan is even worse.

[3ball]

It's below Lebron career %, no one considers him a good three point shooter anyways, well Jordan is even worse.


Career 3-point % in playoffs

Jordan:. 33.2
Lebron:. 32.1


But the problem is that Lebron has horrific midrange TOO - he shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17)..

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency (they can't shoot), but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange efficiency than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

[bigkingsfan]

Career 3-point % in playoffs

Jordan:. 33.2
Lebron:. 32.1


But the problem is that Lebron has horrific midrange TOO - he shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17)..

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency (they can't shoot), but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange efficiency than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat
Career isn't playoff. This is about their three point shooting. Jordan was lousy at it.

[Orlando Magic]

I don't think anyone with any remote idea about the past 30 years of basketball would argue that James is a better scorer or shooter than Jordan, so really you're just pulling arguments out of thin air that nobody is making except yourself. **** off.

[Rocketswin2013]

youre sad 3ball

[3ball]

Career isn't playoff. This is about their three point shooting. Jordan was lousy at it.


Career is playoff, since the playoffs are a higher level of competition than the regular season, as the Warriors found out this year.

For their careers at this higher level of competition, Jordan's 3-point efficiency is higher.

The problem is that Lebron has poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency - he simply can't shoot, whereas at least Jordan was a goat shooter from midrange, which puts him in another dimension (6/6)

[bigkingsfan]

Career is playoff, since the playoffs are a higher level of competition than the regular season, as the Warriors found out this year.

For their careers at this higher level of competition, Jordan's 3-point efficiency is higher.

The problem is that Lebron has poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency - he simply can't shoot, whereas at least Jordan was a goat shooter from midrange, which puts him in another dimension (6/6)

So you're saying none of Jordan MVP counts then because it's the regular season, nor his other accolades. Thus making Bill Russel the undisputed GOAT due to his finals record.

[3ball]

So you're saying none of Jordan MVP counts then because it's the regular season, nor his other accolades. Thus making Bill Russel the undisputed GOAT due to his finals record.
That's an interesting interpretation of what I wrote.

But it works and I agree - regular season MVP's mean nothing in part because the it's a lower level of competition (like going from college to the pros) and many guys that win don't deserve it (i.e. Nash in 2006, Malone in 1997, Rose, and many, many more)

and sure, if someone wants to argue that Russel > MJ based on winning more, I couldn't disagree, but the great Russell is the only guy and he wasn't in the modern era.. In the modern era, Jordan won the most rings as the best player, and therefore is goat

[plowking]

Career isn't playoff. This is about their three point shooting. Jordan was lousy at it.

He would have lost to Kevin Hart in a 3 point contest. That is the level he is on. :oldlol:

[3ball]

He would have lost to Kevin Hart in a 3 point contest. That is the level he is on. :oldlol:
So would Lebron - his 3-point efficiency is less than Jordan's.

But the problem is that Lebron has poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency - he simply can't shoot, whereas at least Jordan was a goat shooter from midrange..

So we have 2 goat athletes - 1 can't shoot, and the other is a goat midrange shooter, which puts him in another dimension (6/6)

[dankok8]

The idea 3ball propagates that Jordan faced better defenses than Lebron is simply untrue. It's actually Lebron who faced better defensive teams. Lower DRtg means stronger defense.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/dankok8/Jordan%20vs%20Lebron%20Defenses_1.png (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/dankok8/media/Jordan%20vs%20Lebron%20Defenses_1.png.html)

Jordan in his career faced only one team with a DRtg < 100 (1993 Knicks) while Lebron faced five such teams. Jordan only faced six teams with a DRtg < 103 while Lebron faced thirteen such teams.

During 1987-1988 and 1988-1989 which were Jordan's peak statistical seasons, the league had an average DRtg of 108.0 and 107.8. Today's league hovers around 106... It's not a massive difference but Jordan for his career has an ORtg (3ball's favorite stat...) 3 points higher (118 vs. 115) so the difference between eras cuts his advantage more than half.

Then we have to remember that Jordan being an 85% free throw shooter often closed out his team's games from the free throw line and shot technical free throws. This too inflated his scoring stats a bit. Some people may point to this as an advantage for Jordan but dozens of role players who shoot free throws well can perform this role.

Correcting for differences in league wide efficiency and Jordan "padding" his numbers from the free throw line, Jordan and Lebron are very very comparable offensive players.

[plowking]

So would Lebron - his 3-point efficiency is less than Jordan's.


You can't prove that though. Hypotheticals. :oldlol:

We have factual evidence that Kevin Hart would have destroyed MJ in a 3 point contest. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Lower DRtg means stronger defense.


So the 2006 Suns' defense was as good as the 1988 Pistons?.. Obviously not, so you're missing something.

Before I explain, understand that league-wide DRtg and ORtg are the same number....

DRtg and ORtg are affected by the style of play - specifically, the eras that took a higher proportion of 2-pointers had higher offensive rebounding rate and FT rate, which increased ORtg.

That's about the size of it - look at the last 4 columns on this bballref page (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html), which show the key drivers of ORtg... Offensive rebounding rate and FT rate was much higher in the eras that shot more 2-pointers - but as 3-point attempts increased, offensive rebounding rate decreased, which decreased ORtg...

It's clear as day, and it's a fact - that's just how the stat is calculated - higher offensive rebounding and FT rate increase ORtg, and those factors were higher in the eras that shot more 2-pointers.
.

[90sgoat]

You know all the losers on ISH always are on the first page of a 3ball thread, hoping to drown the FACTS with inane comments.

Doesn't work boyos you're losers and trolls.

[dankok8]

So the 2006 Suns had a better defense than the 1989 Pistons?.. Obviously not, so you're missing something.

Before I explain, understand that league-wide DRtg and ORtg are the same number....

DRtg and ORtg are affected by the style of play - specifically, the eras that took a higher proportion of 2-pointers had higher offensive rebounding rate and FT rate, which increased ORtg.

That's about the size of it - look at the last 4 columns on this bballref page, which show the key drivers of ORtg... Offensive rebounding rate and FT rate was much higher in the eras that shot more 2-pointers - as 3-point attempts increased, offensive rebounding rate decreased, which decreased ORtg... It's clear as day, and it's a fact - that's just how the stat is calculated - higher offensive rebounding and FT rate increase ORtg, and those factors were higher in the eras that shot more 2-pointers.

If 2006 Suns have a better DRtg they allow fewer points per 100 possessions which makes them a better defensive team. The reasons for it (i.e. style of play) is a separate discussion.

Offensive rebounding rates are actually the highest for 3-pointers because those tend to be long rebounds so that point is false. Free throw rates are higher when you shoot closer to the basket but turnovers rates are higher as well. Guys who camp out out at the 3pt line and hoist up long balls don't tend to turn the ball over as much as guys who drive it.

DRtg is the bottom line. And it's not like the style of play in the 80's and early 90's would diminish Lebron anyways. This was an era that Dominique and Drexler dominated who compared to Lebron are far less strong, worse long-range shooters, and with far worse court vision. Lebron is easily a better player than either Dominique and Drexler and those guys were putting up huge stats in Jordan's era. Something doesn't add up.

And besides if offense was harder and defense easier as you say, imagine how good Lebron would be DEFENSIVELY in that era. Imagine Lebron being allowed to hand-check. Guys wouldn't be able to score on him! :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

If 2006 Suns have a better DRtg they allow fewer points per 100 possessions which makes them a better defensive team. The reasons for it (i.e. style of play) is a separate discussion.

This is beyond dumb. Beyond dumb. This is why ISH is stupid -- because all you can do is count. There is no analytics at all here aside from looking up some unrelated numbers on bball-ref. 2006 Suns are a better defensive team than the 1988 Pistons? Because DRtg says so?

No. A smart person would see that and say Hell no! Something is off. And then dig in further to figure it out before posting it as clear evidence.

[dankok8]

This is beyond dumb. Beyond dumb. This is why ISH is stupid -- because all you can do is count. There is no analytics at all here aside from looking up some unrelated numbers on bball-ref. 2006 Suns are a better defensive team than the 1988 Pistons? Because DRtg says so?

No. A smart person would see that and say Hell no! Something is off. And then dig in further to figure it out before posting it as clear evidence.

It's not beyond dumb. DRtg is points allowed per 100 possessions. It's a bottom line stat. Of course there are reasons for it which is the different style of play. It's really comparing apples and oranges but it's still fact that 2006 Suns allowed fewer points per 100 possessions than 1989 Pistons. Besides outliers happen in statistics. Bad Boy Pistons have a pedestrian DRtg but other great defensive teams of that era like the Ewing Knicks are absolutely dominant.

Forget just those teams. The league average DRtg in this era is lower than back then. 3ball argues that defenses back then were actually better but offensive rebounds and free throw rates inflated the ORtg. What we actually find is that teams back then shot a higher % from the field than today... And 3-point shots lead to more offensive rebounds than any other shot type so the offensive rebounding argument makes no sense. Free throw rates were perhaps higher back then but so were turnover rates.


"Jordan faced tougher defenses"

"Jordan played in a tougher era"

"Lebron would struggle back then"


3ball is throwing out these statements and his arguments are getting crushed.

[feyki]

This is beyond dumb. Beyond dumb. This is why ISH is stupid -- because all you can do is count. There is no analytics at all here aside from looking up some unrelated numbers on bball-ref. 2006 Suns are a better defensive team than the 1988 Pistons? Because DRtg says so?

No. A smart person would see that and say Hell no! Something is off. And then dig in further to figure it out before posting it as clear evidence.

Suns weren't better defensive team than Pistons . Even Oliver(Drtg) says so . But Pistons were better than Suns with only 0.5 points on 100 possesions . It's about era,rules and playing culture . 80's and 90's were man to man D Era and defending was harder .

But Defensive rating doesn't show us the strong sides . Pistons were perimeter D team . They did crash Jordan and Bird in their primes . They had amazing perimeter/On ball/Held defence to shut down perimeter scorers . Defensive rating doesn't show this .

Also , Pistons 2.5 points margin better than Suns per 100 possesions when adjusting era's ; which is huge gap .

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[dankok8]

3ball...

Since your argument comes down to style of play and how Lebron couldn't adjust to those older eras, explain why a guy like Drexler was such a dominant player in that era. He was a smaller version of Lebron, a worse long-range shooter, and far less committed on defense.

[3ball]

It's not beyond dumb. DRtg is points allowed per 100 possessions. It's a bottom line stat.

Of course there are reasons for it which is the different style of play. It's really comparing apples and oranges


If it's comparing apples and oranges, then why are you doing it and then insisting that D'Antoni's Suns had a better defense than the Bad Boys?

D'Antoni would laugh at you for saying his team played better D than the Bad Boys.





but it's still fact that 2006 Suns allowed fewer points per 100 possessions than 1989 Pistons.


The Suns were defending teams that took a lot of 3-pointers and therefore got less offensive rebounds and FT's, which lowered ORtg and DRtg.. That's just the way the stat is calculated - blame the math guys that created the stat.

If the Pistons were defending a team that took a lot of 3-pointers, their DRtg would be lower too, since the opponent is grabbing less offensive rebounds and shooting less FT's.

But I'm guessing you're more of a stat bot than someone that understands qualitative factors, so things like style of play mean little to you.. You've likely used stats to teach you about the game, which has left you with many misperceptions.





Forget just those teams. The league average DRtg in this era is lower than back then. 3ball argues that defenses back then were actually better but offensive rebounds and free throw rates inflated the ORtg. What we actually find is that teams back then shot a higher % from the field than today


Teams have lower FG% today because they take more 3-pointers





And 3-point shots lead to more offensive rebounds than any other shot type so the offensive rebounding argument makes no sense.


False - 2-pointers have always yielded more offensive rebounds - 3-pointers yield the occasional long rebound that wings can chase down, but 2-pointers yield all the offensive boards that the big men battle for under the rim and in the paint.





3ball says "Lebron would struggle back then", but his arguments are getting crushed


You're saying I'm wrong without knowing what I've said on that specific issue:

Without 3-pointers to draw defenders out of the paint, the paints were overcrowded in previous eras - unfortunately for Lebron, it's physically impossible to bulldoze THROUGH players, so he'd need a better midrange jumpshot, just like everyone else back then:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


Poor midrange is the primary reason Lebron would be worse back then - virtually ALL great perimeter scorers in the 80's and 90's had great midrange (just look at the top 10 scorers from 1986 or any year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html) in the 80's or 90's - everyone had great midrange)..

But in today's game, it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) that most of the top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.

[bigkingsfan]

and sure, if someone wants to argue that Russel > MJ based on winning more, I couldn't disagree, but the great Russell is the only guy and he wasn't in the modern era.. In the modern era, Jordan won the most rings as the best player, and therefore is goat
If recent players are automatically better, then Lebron is better than MJ.

[3ball]

3ball...

Since your argument comes down to style of play and how Lebron couldn't adjust to those older eras, explain why a guy like Drexler was such a dominant player in that era. He was a smaller version of Lebron, a worse long-range shooter, and far less committed on defense.



Lebron isn't a good 3-point shooter, so I don't know why people keep bringing that up.. More importantly, Clyde was much better from midrange, which was important back then because the overcrowded paints often prevented penetration - after all, how do you score on defense like this?


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


Not penetration, that's for sure - you score via MIDRANGE... And Lebron is horrible from midrange.. Infact, most (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) of today's top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.
.

[dankok8]

3ball...

I posted the DRtg of opposing teams in response to your claim that defenses back then were better than today. Today's teams are allowing fewer points per 100 possessions than teams back then so you are wrong. I too think there is more to the story than DRtg.

Your second argument revolves around style and how Lebron would struggle in that era. Great scorers from Jordan's era like Nique, Drexler, Dr J, and David Robinson were not great jump shooters at all. Lebron circa 2012-2014 easily shot better than all of them from mid-range and especially from 23+ feet.

And if hand-checking clearly aids the defense while stymieing the offense, then how wouldn't Lebron be an insane defensive player under those rules...? Imagine Lebron with his physical gifts being allowed to body guys, allowed to hand check them, and able to gamble for steals and blocks knowing that behind him was a packed paint and the guys he was guarding didn't shoot 3's. Lebron may well have 3 or 4 DPOY's under the conditions you're describing.

I will give you that paints were more packed back then and there was hand-checking and those changes would hurt Lebron BUT many factors played in Lebron's favor...

1) Pace was higher and nobody is better in the open court than Lebron.

2) Hand checking would allow him to be much more physical on defense.


Looking at his skill set it's hard for me to imagine Lebron not putting up better stats than Drexler (he's taller, strong, and better shooter...) with bone crushing defense of course. Something like 28/8/8 on 53% shooting with DPOY defense in his prime. That's no worse than he is today.

Is he a better scorer than Jordan? No. Is he a better all-around overall player? Perhaps. That is definitely open for discussion.

[3ball]

If recent players are automatically better, then Lebron is better than MJ.


Both Jordan and Lebron play in the modern era - they actually played a lot of the same players - in 1998, Jordan was MVP, all-star MVP, scoring champ, and FMVP over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Kidd, Kobe, Garnett, Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Pippen, Payton, and more.

However, Jordan played in UNSPACED phase of the modern era - that's a tougher time period than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.. It's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their teams take 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (Bulls took 5 threes in 1991).

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31)

[nba_55]

3ball...

I posted the DRtg of opposing teams in response to your claim that defenses back then were better than today. Today's teams are allowing fewer points per 100 possessions than teams back then so you are wrong. I too think there is more to the story than DRtg.

Your second argument revolves around style and how Lebron would struggle in that era. Great scorers from Jordan's era like Nique, Drexler, Dr J, and David Robinson were not great jump shooters at all. Lebron circa 2012-2014 easily shot better than all of them from mid-range and especially from 23+ feet.

And if hand-checking clearly aids the defense while stymieing the offense, then how wouldn't Lebron be an insane defensive player under those rules...? Imagine Lebron with his physical gifts being allowed to body guys, allowed to hand check them, and able to gamble for steals and blocks knowing that behind him was a packed paint and the guys he was guarding didn't shoot 3's. Lebron may well have 3 or 4 DPOY's under the conditions you're describing.

I will give you that paints were more packed back then and there was hand-checking and those changes would hurt Lebron BUT many factors played in Lebron's favor...

1) Pace was higher and nobody is better in the open court than Lebron.

2) Hand checking would allow him to be much more physical on defense.


Looking at his skill set it's hard for me to imagine Lebron not putting up better stats than Drexler (he's taller, strong, and better shooter...) with bone crushing defense of course. Something like 28/8/8 on 53% shooting with DPOY defense in his prime. That's no worse than he is today.

Is he a better scorer than Jordan? No. Is he a better all-around overall player? Perhaps. That is definitely open for discussion.

ether :applause: :applause:

[bigkingsfan]

Both Jordan and Lebron play in the modern era - they actually played a lot of the same players - in 1998, Jordan was MVP, all-star MVP, scoring champ, and FMVP over all-stars Shaq, Duncan, Kidd, Kobe, Garnett, Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Pippen, Payton, and more.

However, Jordan played in UNSPACED phase of the modern era - that's a tougher time period than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.. It's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their teams take 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (Bulls took 5 threes in 1991).

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31)

Lebron is dominating basketball nearly 20 years after Jordan did, not that much difference than Russel and Jordan really.

[3ball]

I posted the DRtg of opposing teams in response to your claim that defenses back then were better than today. Today's teams are allowing fewer points per 100 possessions than teams back then so you are wrong. I too think there is more to the story than DRtg.


We've already been over DRtg's and how they're influenced by the higher offensive rebounding and FT rates associated with 2-pointer.

Again, blame the math guys for creating a stat that is influenced by offensive rebounding rate and FT rate - but the stat IS affected by those things, as much as you try to slank around that statistical fact.. And it explains why the Suns DIDN'T have a better defense than the Bad Boys.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, you should be aware that DRtg reached an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. Also, DRtg was higher in the mid-late 2000's than it was in the mid-late 90's during Jordan's 2nd three-peat - specifically, DRtg was lower in the regular season and playoffs during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than it was during Kobe's 3 straight Finals without Shaq (2008-2010).

Also, DRtg was lower in 1998 than any year of Lebron's career, except his rookie year (2004), which was before the removal of hand-checking (when he shot like hot garbage and had lower PER than 40-year old Jordan the previous year in 2003)..

Btw, the 1998 Jazz had a lower playoff DRtg than anything Lebron has faced in the Finals - this is remarkable considering the higher offensive rebounding and FT rates at the time.





Your second argument revolves around style and how Lebron would struggle in that era. Great scorers from Jordan's era like Nique, Drexler, Dr J, and David Robinson were not great jump shooters at all. Lebron circa 2012-2014 easily shot better than all of them from mid-range and especially from 23+ feet.


Apparently, you don't know much about previous eras - all those guys were very good midrange shooters, especially Nique and Robinson..

You should be aware that MOST points in previous eras were scored from midrange - midrange replaced all the 3-pointers today's teams take (25 per game)... So MOST players were very good at midrange - remember that when you're contemplating players from previous eras that you don't know much about.





And if hand-checking clearly aids the defense while stymieing the offense, then how wouldn't Lebron be an insane defensive player under those rules...? Imagine Lebron with his physical gifts being allowed to body guys, allowed to hand check them, and able to gamble for steals and blocks knowing that behind him was a packed paint and the guys he was guarding didn't shoot 3's. Lebron may well have 3 or 4 DPOY's under the conditions you're describing.


Under your rosy scenario, he still wouldn't win multiple DPOY's because he would be playing in the golden age of big men.

Also, without the spacing, ball movement wasn't as effective as it is today and so teams opted to let their best players score 1-on-1... This heightened emphasis on 1-on-1 defense would hurt Lebron - as a forward playing in a big man's era without 3-pointers, Lebron would be guarding forwards in the paint much more than he does now.. It's likely that the higher level of physicality and banging in the paint is more draining for Lebron and he would be an average defender against the likes of Barkley, Malone, etc..

The 80's and 90's were not guard's era and ball movement era like today's game, so Lebron wouldn't guard the perimeter as much and his defensive value would come less from help defense than it does now... Locking down your man was important, and Lebron has struggled with that against role players in 2 Finals.



CONTINUED...

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED...





I will give you that paints were more packed back then and there was hand-checking and those changes would hurt Lebron BUT many factors played in Lebron's favor

1) Pace was higher and nobody is better in the open court than Lebron.

2) Hand checking would allow him to be much more physical on defense.


Not during Jordan's 2nd three-peat... Infact, league-wide pace and PPG were both lower during Jordan's 2nd three-peat than today's game.

Furthermore, pace has ALWAYS slowed down in the playoffs, regardless of era - pace in the mid-80's was only slightly faster than today, and pace in the late 80's onwards was SLOWER than today's pace - pace was 94.0 in 1988 playoffs, compared to 94.4 today:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats





Looking at his skill set it's hard for me to imagine Lebron not putting up better stats than Drexler (he's taller, strong, and better shooter...) with bone crushing defense of course. Something like 28/8/8 on 53% shooting with DPOY defense in his prime. That's no worse than he is today.


No way he would shoot 53% - that's a joke - by saying that, you've ignored the biggest adjustment that Lebron would have to make - the packed paints would force him to shoot more midrange, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE BACK THEN.

But Lebron's midrange is horrible (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) - he has no soft touch on his shot like Jordan or Bird... He has stone hands by comparison, more like Dwight Howard.





Is he a better scorer than Jordan? No. Is he a better all-around overall player? Perhaps. That is definitely open for discussion.


Even though Jordan played off-ball more and averaged nearly 6 more points in the playoffs, he only averaged 1 less assist.

Would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... Obviously not - Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer (even an entire playoff run).. The reality is that NO all-time great led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan (let that sink in).

Btw, in addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

The above paragraphs show a recurring theme - it's a big misperception that Lebron is a better passer than Jordan... Not only did Jordan carry a FAR bigger scoring load while still leading his team in passing, but anytime Jordan dominated the ball as much as Lebron, he passed far better - he played PG for 24 games (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) in 1989, and averaged 30/9/11 with a legendary stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.... And he averaged 11 apg while heads-up with Magic in 1991 Finals.. Lebron has never passed this well in his entire career as a ball-dominator.
.

[90sgoat]

You notice how the dimwit Simons on the first page just post inane bs, that is because as proven above, if you try to argue MJ with 3Ball you get slayed and the dimwit Simon Lebron crew have no balls or arguments.

[dankok8]

3ball...

RE: Offensive rebounding

It's a statistical fact that a 3pt shot is more likely to result in an offensive rebound than any other type of shot. You're simply wrong here.

The reason teams in that era had a higher ORB% is that they crashed the boards hard. Part of it was the personnel. Teams were big then and there was no small ball. It would be a waste of skill and you'd run your 7 footers into the ground if they had to forgo crashing the glass and sprint up and down the court.

It's a balance between crashing the offensive glass and defending the transition. Back then pace was higher because there many more opportunities to run and teams didn't emphasize transition defense. Teams like the Showtime Lakers were playing run-n-gun ball deep into the playoffs and running teams out of the gym. It's well documented.

RE: Midrange shooting

Drexler, Dominique, Dr. J, Barkley, and David Robinson were not great midrange shooters by any stretch of imagination. Again you're simply wrong here.

RE: Lebron's defense with hand-checking

Maybe 3-4 DPOY is an exaggeration because Lebron would never be better defensively than Hakeem but he would win a few. Remember Hakeem only won two of them late in his career and in the mid and late 80's, lots of guards and small forward were winning. Guys like Moncrief, Jordan, Alvin Robertson, and Dennis Rodman.

Lebron's strength combined with hand-checking would make him impossible to shake on the perimeter and even in the post he could occasionally switch on traditional forwards like Bird, Barkley, and Worthy and give them a hell of a resistance.

RE: Jordan vs. Lebron

Enough with Jordan's 6 ppg edge. MJ's era had an ORtg 2 points higher and Jordan padded his scoring numbers by going to the free throw line and shooting technical free throws. The realistic gap is 2-3 ppg and Lebron's edge in rebounding and playmaking is significant enough to close the gap.

[90sgoat]

3ball...

RE: Offensive rebounding

It's a statistical fact that a 3pt shot is more likely to result in an offensive rebound than any other type of shot. You're simply wrong here.

The reason teams in that era had a higher ORB% is that they crashed the boards hard. Part of it was the personnel. Teams were big then and there was no small ball. It would be a waste of skill and you'd run your 7 footers into the ground if they had to forgo crashing the glass and sprint up and down the court.

It's a balance between crashing the offensive glass and defending the transition. Back then pace was higher because there many more opportunities to run and teams didn't emphasize transition defense. Teams like the Showtime Lakers were playing run-n-gun ball deep into the playoffs and running teams out of the gym. It's well documented.

RE: Midrange shooting

Drexler, Dominique, Dr. J, Barkley, and David Robinson were not great midrange shooters by any stretch of imagination. Again you're simply wrong here.

RE: Lebron's defense with hand-checking

Maybe 3-4 DPOY is an exaggeration because Lebron would never be better defensively than Hakeem but he would win a few. Remember Hakeem only won two of them late in his career and in the mid and late 80's, lots of guards and small forward were winning. Guys like Moncrief, Jordan, Alvin Robertson, and Dennis Rodman.

Lebron's strength combined with hand-checking would make him impossible to shake on the perimeter and even in the post he could occasionally switch on traditional forwards like Bird, Barkley, and Worthy and give them a hell of a resistance.

RE: Jordan vs. Lebron

Enough with Jordan's 6 ppg edge. MJ's era had an ORtg 2 points higher and Jordan padded his scoring numbers by going to the free throw line and shooting technical free throws. The realistic gap is 2-3 ppg and Lebron's edge in rebounding and playmaking is significant enough to close the gap.

Lebron would be better defensively but he would be much worse on offense, I seriously think he would struggle to average 20 ppg over his career.

[dankok8]

Lebron would be better defensively but he would be much worse on offense, I seriously think he would struggle to average 20 ppg over his career.

LMAO

And Drexler who is shorter, less strong, and with a worse jumper... basically Lebron-lite averaged a lot more. Right...

[3ball]

:rolleyes:
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[3ball]

Thought i'd give it a shot and watch the highlights - 1st one is a WIDE OPEN free throw line jumper for MJ. LOL




Not true - the OP defines "contested" as when a defender leaves his feet to contest the shot - Dumas left his feet to contest the shot (shown below), which is better than Lebron's 7 shots shown in the OP where the defender didn't jump/contest the shot AT ALL


https://media.giphy.com/media/l46Cg7Wd6tWYWsWVa/giphy.gif


The OP shows that Lebron took less contested shots (where a defender left their feet to contest), and more UNcontested shots (where the defender didn't leave their feet).

Don't be surprised that more of Lebron's shots were uncontested - today's offenses keep 3-4 players standing behind the 3-point line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time