Better Finals performer LeBron or Jordan?

[Dray n Klay]

LeBrons career Finals stats 27/10/7

Jordans career Finals stats 33/6/6




When you consider this comparison includes LeBrons 2007 and 2011 Finals, 2 poorly performed Finals, its astonishing how LeBron is STILL statistically superior in the finals compared to MJ



Think about it, LeBron was poor in his first 2 Finals, and STILL has a career Finals average of 27/10/7




27/10/7> 33/6/6

:confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron also played way better teams in the Finals. It's not even close either.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Does anyone know what MJ put up against 70 win teams in the finals?

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron also played way better teams in the Finals. It's not even close either.

Exactly, Jordan stans want to compare LeBron scoring against GOAT defense Iggy, Draymond, Bogut, to Jordan scoring against the shit defense Suns and Dan Marjerle (WOAT defender) :oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Let's See:

MJ Opponents:

91 Lakers - 6.73
92 Blazers - 6.94
93 Suns - 6.27
96 Sonics - 7.4
97 Jazz - 7.97
98 Jazz - 5.73

Average SRS: 6.84

LBJ Opponents:
07 Spurs - 8.35
11 Mavericks - 4.41
12 Thunder - 6.44
13 Spurs - 6.67
14 Spurs - 8.00
15 Warriors - 10.01
16 Warriors - 10.38

Average SRS: 7.75

And naturally teams LeBron played had better drtgs.

[NBAGOAT]

list the ts%, almost sure Jordan is higher. That makes Jordan statistically superior most like(6ppg on better efficiency to 1apg and 3rpg) Also you can't just throw out 07 or 11 like they never existed :oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

list the ts%, almost sure Jordan is higher. That makes Jordan statistically superior most like(6ppg on better efficiency to 1apg and 3rpg) Also you can't just throw out 07 or 11 like they never existed :oldlol:
ts is about the same. both around 55% i believe.

[Dray n Klay]

Let's See:

MJ Opponents:

91 Lakers - 6.73
92 Blazers - 6.94
93 Suns - 6.27
96 Sonics - 7.4
97 Jazz - 7.97
98 Jazz - 5.73

Average SRS: 6.84

LBJ Opponents:
07 Spurs - 8.35
11 Mavericks - 4.41
12 Thunder - 6.44
13 Spurs - 6.67
14 Spurs - 8.00
15 Warriors - 10.01
16 Warriors - 10.38

Average SRS: 7.75

And naturally teams LeBron played had better drtgs.


Wait.. So LeBron both put up better stats against tougher competition?:biggums:


How does Jordan have an argument in this debate?

[feyki]

.d.d.d

[Dray n Klay]

list the ts%, almost sure Jordan is higher. That makes Jordan statistically superior most like(6ppg on better efficiency to 1apg and 3rpg) Also you can't just throw out 07 or 11 like they never existed :oldlol:

We're not throwing out 07 or 11 (even though LeBron was only 22 in 2007 and deserves a pass)


They are included in the stats




If we removed 07 and 11 LeBrons stats would be 30/10/9 which would be >>>>> Jordan's :eek:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

We're not throwing out 07 or 11 (even though LeBron was only 22 in 2007 and deserves a pass)


They are included in the stats




If we removed 07 and 11 LeBrons stats would be 30/10/9 which would be >>>>> Jordan's :eek:

****ing GOAT

[Dray n Klay]

So LeBron


- faced tougher competition (team record and average SRS wise)

- faced tougher defenses (lower drtg teams)

- scored the same as Jordan taking pace into account

- averaged more assists

- shot a higher TS%

- grabbed 40% more rebounds

- played in the tougher perimeter zone defense era

:biggums:


GOAT




Jordan doesn't have an argument here


Sorry 3ball

[3ball]

LeBrons career Finals stats 27/10/7

Jordans career Finals stats 34/6/6


Jordan averaged 33.6 ppg, so that's 34 ppg, not 33.

Jordan averaged 7 more points than Lebron with nearly equal assists - Jordan's 7 more points is FAR more important than Lebron's 4 extra rebounds.

Do you really think Lebron's 4 rebounds are equal in importance to Jordan's 7 extra points?

The Cavs can find someone else to grab those rebounds - but there's no one else to score Jordan's 7 more points, because Pippen, Grant and company were already playing to full capacity - we've been over those stats before.

Btw, we also know for a fact that Jordan took far more contested shots in his 55 point game than Lebron took in Game 6 of this year's Finals (see the data here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412635)).. A contested shot is defined as when a defender leaves his feet to contest the shot - Jordan had way more of those than Lebron, whose defenders were often too late or far away to contest at all.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball Jordan's 20% scoring advantage is negated by LeBrons 20% assists advantage


They cancel out




Meanwhile LeBron is grabbing 60% more rebounds :confusedshrug:



So 20% scoring advantage = 20% assist advantage


BUT LeBron also has 60% more rebounds


That is why LeBron is a better Finals performer than MJ


Remember this is against better competition (average team SRS) and tougher defenses (drtg)




Jordan has no argument here

[scuzzy]

I'm gunna have to agree with OP on this one


Plus Jordan played in a much weaker era


Bubble bath Western teams who played no D


2016 every Finals win is earned

[NLZ]

LeBrons career Finals stats 27/10/7

Jordans career Finals stats 33/6/6




When you consider this comparison includes LeBrons 2007 and 2011 Finals, 2 poorly performed Finals, its astonishing how LeBron is STILL statistically superior in the finals compared to MJ



Think about it, LeBron was poor in his first 2 Finals, and STILL has a career Finals average of 27/10/7




27/10/7> 33/6/6

:confusedshrug:
Minutes played? Can you post decimals to those numbers? It's known that MJ dominates the opponent greater than anyone else, so I'm guessing LeBron's MPG is higher by at least a few minutes.

I also don't think MJ willingly allowed a game to from 5% chance of winning to 0% winning just to make three consecutive layups to inflate his stats.

[3ball]

LeBron faced tougher competition


It's a purely subjective argument - there is no way to know if Jordan's Finals opponents could beat Lebron's Finals opponents.

But we do know that Jordan defeated Magic, who is better than anyone Lebron has ever faced, let alone defeated.





- scored the same as Jordan taking pace into account


Lies - pace for Jordan's Finals was the same or less than all of Lebron's - look it up (just change the year in the web address to get a different year):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html





- shot a higher TS%


More lies - Jordan had higher fg, ts and ORtg in the Finals.





grabbed 4 more rebounds and 1 more assist


Even though Jordan averaged 7 more points, he only averaged 1 less assist - and his assist average was equal when you factor in Lebron's higher turnovers.

Regarding the rebounds: Jordan's 7 more points are worth more than Lebron's 4 rebounds.. If Lebron averaged 7 more points, he'd be on an entirely different level, whereas the rebounds are replaceable - any unskilled big man can get those boards... You'd gladly trade those 4 boards for Jordan's 7 points.





- faced tougher defenses (lower drtg teams)


DRtg's are affected by style of play - this includes offensive rebounding rate and FT rate, which were both higher in the eras that shot more 2-pointers.. So a comparison of DRtg's over the eras is useless..

The reality is that Lebron enjoys hands-off perimeter defense and an open paint created by spacing and no paint-camping - under these conditions, it's the consensus of pundits, coaches and players that Jordan would average 40+ points.

But Jordan didn't enjoy those things - he didn't get spacing, hands-off defense or an open paint, which is why he took far more contested shots.. This was demonstrated in a shot-by-shot comparison of his 55 point Finals game to Lebron's Game 6 of this year's Finals (see the data here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412635)).. A contested shot is defined as when a defender leaves his feet to contest the shot - Jordan had way more of those than Lebron, whose spaced-out defenders were often too late or far away to contest AT ALL.
.

[Asukal]

3/7 is supposed to be impressive now? :hammerhead:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

MJ:

https://s31.postimg.org/w2dfu31ln/mjfinals.jpg

LeBron:

https://s31.postimg.org/7fqq0lrgr/lbjfinals.jpg

[3ball]

MJ:

https://s31.postimg.org/w2dfu31ln/mjfinals.jpg

LeBron:

https://s31.postimg.org/7fqq0lrgr/lbjfinals.jpg


Jordan averaged 7 more points with better efficiency..... and only 1 less assist, which is cancelled out by his 1 fewer turnovers.

So it comes down to Jordan's 7 more points vs. Lebron's 4 more rebounds.

Which do you choose?... Obviously, the 7 points are far more important - Lebron would be on an entirely different level if he averaged 7 more points.. Let some unskilled big man grab the rebounds.





Lebron's Finals had slower pace and played against better teams


Lebron's Finals were NOT at a slower pace - Jordan's Finals played at the same or slower pace - look it up so you're not ignorant about this one.. (just change the year in the web address to get a different year):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html

Also, there's no way of knowing which Finals opponents were better - if the Bulls played in the 2000's, the Spurs would be just like the Jazz in the 90's - they wouldn't have any rings.. Keep in mind that the 1998 Jazz EASILY defeated Duncan/Robinson/Popovich and their 56-win Spurs in ecsf (4-1).

[Quickening]

I want there prime final stats, I class a player's prime as their best five years in a row.

So can we have the stats for Lebrons 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 finals please, and Ordan 5 best.

Lebrons 2012-2016 finals.

30, 11, 7 on 48 percent shooting... Lebron GOAT finals performers for a 5 year stretch!

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, there's no way of knowing which Finals opponents were better - if the Bulls played in the 2000's, the Spurs would be just like the Jazz in the 90's - they wouldn't have any rings.. Keep in mind that the 1998 Jazz EASILY defeated Duncan/Robinson/Popovich and their 56-win Spurs in ecsf (4-1).

I'm just going off SRS.

[PeroAntic]

This thread is a joke. Jordan is about a hundred times better than Lebron in the finals.

[3ball]

I'm just going off SRS.


How smart is that?

SRS predicted a Warriors destruction of the Cavs in these last Finals... but it was wrong, because in the end it's just a dumb stat.

SRS predicted similar losses for Jordan in the Finals as well (1993 and 1998)

Using single stats like SRS or RAPM to make definitive statements about basketball has never worked, ever

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I want there prime final stats, I class a player's prime as their best five years in a row.

So can we have the stats for Lebrons 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 finals please, and Ordan 5 best.

LBJ 12,13,14,15,16

https://s32.postimg.org/y28qtrg1h/lbj1216.jpg

MJ 91,92,93,96,97

https://s32.postimg.org/f6846qmyt/mj9197.jpg

[Da_Realist]

It's a wonder Lebron didn't score more. Teams have been giving him wide open jump shots for years. That has been the strategy.

What's the fg%?

[Quickening]

LBJ 12,13,14,15,16

https://s32.postimg.org/y28qtrg1h/lbj1216.jpg

MJ 91,92,93,96,97

https://s32.postimg.org/f6846qmyt/mj9197.jpg

SHUT IT DOWN!!! Lebron has the best prime out of any finals performer ever? Holy shit, he has done work over the last 5 years.

[andgar923]

I'll take the one that:

*Shows up to play regardless of the A/C's temp
*Does not let a series go to 7 games
*6/6
*Does NOT let the person guarding him win MVP
*Does NOT collude
*Is not purposely given wide open after wide open after wide open shots for an
entire series
*Is not shut down by an overweight Diaw
*Does not sit out in critical moments due to a cramp

[Mr Feeny]

LBJ 12,13,14,15,16

https://s32.postimg.org/y28qtrg1h/lbj1216.jpg

MJ 91,92,93,96,97

https://s32.postimg.org/f6846qmyt/mj9197.jpg

Excellent research. And I'm asking you to do a lot here but could you post MJ's 1st 3 peat numbers and Lebron's best 3 Finals and see how they stack up.

Thanks man:cheers:

[feyki]

28 points a game with %68 TS in a garbage series , solid padding .

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Excellent research. And I'm asking you to do a lot here but could you post MJ's 1st 3 peat numbers and Lebron's best 3 Finals and see how they stack up.

Thanks man:cheers:

MJ 1st 3 Titles:

https://s31.postimg.org/xhj5dmt9n/Jordan1st3.jpg

LeBron 1st 3 Titles

https://s32.postimg.org/ury5z7wv9/lebron3titles.jpg

[3ball]

SHUT IT DOWN!!! Lebron has the best prime out of any finals performer ever? Holy shit, he has done work over the last 5 years.


Jordan had equal assists especially when you consider turnovers.

So it comes down to Jordan's 7 point scoring edge (career) versus Lebron's 4 rebounds..

Obviously, the 7 points are far more important - Lebron would be on an entirely different level if he averaged 7 more points.. Let some unskilled big man grab the rebounds.

[Mr Feeny]

MJ 1st 3 Titles:

https://s31.postimg.org/xhj5dmt9n/Jordan1st3.jpg

LeBron 1st 3 Titles

https://s32.postimg.org/ury5z7wv9/lebron3titles.jpg

Thank you. I guess it depends on the cutoff points. If we take 3 year stretches as our definition of "prime", MJ's comfortably ahead.
If we compare their career finals stats, MJ is ahead.
If we compare just post 2011 lebron with MJ's first 5 Titles, it's much closer and one could argue lebron is close to being MJ's equal there.

[Quickening]

Jordan scores a lot more with equal assists, especially when you consider turnovers.

So it comes down to Jordan's 7 point scoring edge versus Lebron's 4 rebounds..

Obviously, the 7 points are far more important - Lebron would be on an entirely different level if he averaged 7 more points.. Let some unskilled big man grab the rebounds.

Sorry to break it to you, but I look at 5 year stretches, because that shows a players prime. Lebron has better numbers for 5 consecutive finals 12-16, than MJ does in his 5 best.

You can concentrate on career stats or whatever bro.

Lebron has the best prime in finals, WOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Da_Realist]

These numbers don't mean anything. Lebron shot 57% from the field in 2014 while the Spurs were raping his team by 20 points a game. Meanwhile, he's cherrypicking shots to make sure he had a good fg %.

[NBAGOAT]

How smart is that?

SRS predicted a Warriors destruction of the Cavs in these last Finals... but it was wrong, because in the end it's just a dumb stat.

SRS predicted similar losses for Jordan in the Finals as well (1993 and 1998)

Using single stats like SRS or RAPM to make definitive statements about basketball has never worked, ever

:oldlol: you're just lying again. the Bulls had a higher SRS in 98 and by a decent amount(7.23 to 5.74). Suns were higher in 93 but it's essentially a wash(6.27 to 6.19). SRS didn't predict a destruction at all like it did for Warriors vs Cavs. It's not definitive but it's still one of the better stats out there for rating a team.

[3ball]

MJ 1st 3 Titles:

https://s31.postimg.org/xhj5dmt9n/Jordan1st3.jpg

LeBron 1st 3 Titles

https://s32.postimg.org/ury5z7wv9/lebron3titles.jpg


Your Lebron stats are wrong - I doubt Lebron averaged 28 ppg in his first 3 Finals, considering he averaged 22, 18, and 29 in those Finals.

[3ball]

Lebron has better numbers for 5 consecutive finals 12-16, than MJ does in his 5 best.


Jordan averaged 4 more points, better efficiency, and equal assists.

So again, I'll take Jordan's 4 points with better efficiency over Lebron's 3 rebounds any day of the week, and so would you.

[hateraid]

I'll take the one that:

*Shows up to play regardless of the A/C's temp
*Does not let a series go to 7 games
*6/6
*Does NOT let the person guarding him win MVP
*Does NOT collude
*Is not purposely given wide open after wide open after wide open shots for an
entire series
*Is not shut down by an overweight Diaw
*Does not sit out in critical moments due to a cramp

So based on personal opinion and not on substance. Great way to assess players. Let's play your game

*Does not quit halfway through a career
*Does not let his team still become a playoff contender while he's gone
*Does not let his dad get killed over a bet
*Does not go 1/9 in the playoffs without an elite wing
*Does not slap around his teammates
*Does not have the worse 3 pt contest performance in NBA history

[Quickening]

Jordan averaged 4 more points, better efficiency, and equal assists.

So again, I'll take Jordan's 4 points with better efficiency over Lebron's 3 rebounds any day of the week, and so would you.

Fair enough. Ill take the 4 extra rebounds, more shots blocked, steals and assists :cheers:

[andgar923]

Jordan averaged 4 more points, better efficiency, and equal assists.

So again, I'll take Jordan's 4 points with better efficiency over Lebron's 3 rebounds any day of the week, and so would you.
F*ck the stats.

I'll take the 6/6

[andgar923]

So based on personal opinion and not on substance. Great way to assess players. Let's play your game

*Does not quit halfway through a career
*Does not let his team still become a playoff contender while he's gone
*Does not let his dad get killed over a bet
*Does not go 1/9 in the playoffs without an elite wing
*Does not slap around his teammates
*Does not have the worse 3 pt contest performance in NBA history
Are you a retard?

Seriously?

[Da_Realist]

Obviously I don't trust Lebron's numbers. I need a deeper analysis. Like whatever he did to protect his stats against San Antonio when they bounced the Heat in 5 games by an average of 20 points is a strike against him. He didn't lay it all on the line. He shot his layups, chip ins and putbacks and then laid down. Greatest Finals performer ever? Please.

Because he dominates the ball, pretty much every possession will improve his stats as long as his teammates hit some shots.

[Quickening]

Obviously I don't trust Lebron's numbers. I need a deeper analysis. Like whatever he did to protect his stats against San Antonio when they bounced the Heat in 5 games by an average of 20 points is a strike against him. He didn't lay it all on the line. He shot his layups, chip ins and putbacks and then laid down. Greatest Finals performer ever? Please.

Because he dominates the ball, pretty much every possession will improve his stats as long as his teammates hit some shots.

So MJ in the competitive 80s era, all empty stats I take it? :lol

[Hey Yo]

Your Lebron stats are wrong - I doubt Lebron averaged 28 ppg in his first 3 Finals, considering he averaged 22, 18, and 29 in those Finals.
It says "first 3 titles"........not "first 3 finals"

[SpaceJam]

LMAO when you have to remove 2 finals series from a players career because they sh^t the bed, then I think that speaks for itself who the better finals performer is...

[Da_Realist]

Judging by numbers only whitewashes the whole point of watching basketball. In fact, it eliminates the need to watch at all. Just look at the boxscore every night. I'll admit, Lebron has a strong case for boxscore king.

[riseagainst]

So based on personal opinion and not on substance. Great way to assess players. Let's play your game

*Does not quit halfway through a career
*Does not let his team still become a playoff contender while he's gone
*Does not let his dad get killed over a bet
*Does not go 1/9 in the playoffs without an elite wing
*Does not slap around his teammates
*Does not have the worse 3 pt contest performance in NBA history


savage.
:lol

[hateraid]

Are you a retard?

Seriously?

Are you?
Your comment had nothing of substance but merely cherry picking irrelevant moments based on personal hate to judge a player on their merits. It is no more "retarded" than the post I made.

Difference is I wasn't being serious, you were. You want to talk basketball, post here, if you want to send a hate message, use twitter

[WayOfWad3]

Judging by numbers only whitewashes the whole point of watching basketball. In fact, it eliminates the need to watch at all. Just look at the boxscore every night. I'll admit, Lebron has a strong case for boxscore king.
The numbers don't paint the entire picture, but they are a very large piece of the puzzle. I see nothing wrong with analyzing the numbers seeing as they are a representation of what was actually done on he floor

[riseagainst]

Are you?
You're comment had nothing of substance but merely cherry picking irrelevant moments based on personal hate to judge a player on their merits. It is no more "retarded" than the post I made.

Difference is I wasn't being serious, you were. You want to talk basketball, post here, if you want to send a hate message, use twitter


fcking...
savage....

[bond10]

Lebron needed 7 finals to finally go down as an all time great. MJ was considered GOAT after his first ring and pretty much solidified it after the first 3peat. Then he pretty much killed it by 3peating again after taking 2 years off..

Also, that 2011 finals was absolutely disgusting and can't be thrown under the rug. Don't even try bringing up 1-9 when the Bulls weren't championship caliber at all during those years and they kept losing to the conference champs anyway. Lebron's case, this is with a fully championship caliber team with a GOOD D Wade and Bosh and he literally **** the bed.

Also, MJ never let his defender win finals MVP (Kawahi, Iggy).

Also, MJ never lost when he was expected to win.

Get over it, that man's career is damn near perfect. Lebron's top 10 no doubt, but please drop these comparisons as he's had plenty of **** ups that everyone seems to dismiss.


Plus, you don't even need a full brain if you watched both to conclude that MJ was ridiculous. Anytime a series needed to be closed or a tight game, you knew MJ was going to win it. With Lebron, I always have and always will get nervous in the final minutes of a game watching him cause he's gonna **** it all up somehow.

[NBAGOAT]

Judging by numbers only whitewashes the whole point of watching basketball. In fact, it eliminates the need to watch at all. Just look at the boxscore every night. I'll admit, Lebron has a strong case for boxscore king.

There are empty stats guys out there but lebron's not one of them. Rajon Rondo would be an actual example of this. Sure he will pad his rebounds or fg% once in awhile and cherrypicked some in 14 but the main reason they lost was just their trapping defense getting destroyed by the Spurs passing and hot shooting. Ik impact stats are stats too but he's usually at top of the league for those stats. Anyway by the eye test, shaq has a decent case over MJ for best Finals performer(Lebron's around top 5 ish). His dominance really just sticks to you.

[Da_Realist]

There are empty stats guys out there but lebron's not one of them. Rajon Rondo would be an actual example of this. Sure he will pad his rebounds or fg% once in awhile and cherrypicked some in 14 but the main reason they lost was just their trapping defense getting destroyed by the Spurs passing and hot shooting. Ik impact stats are stats too but he's usually at top of the league for those stats. Anyway by the eye test, shaq has a decent case over MJ for best Finals performer(Lebron's around top 5 ish). His dominance really just sticks to you.

No. Using numbers only to decide who is the better Finals performer is stupid. Different context, different teams, different ways to play the game. Lebon could score 30 points in the first 3 quarters and 2 in the last, ending with 32 after missing wide open jumshot after wide open jumpshot. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time. MJ could score 28 over the first three quarters and dominate the last 5 mins by scoring 10, ending with 38.

How can the box score tell you this? Or worse, how can a 5 year summary tell you this?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Post 2011, LeBron has been an unbelievable elimination game player along with a VERY GOOD finals performer. I wouldn't say the latter has equaled MJ's success, but Bron has definitely put himself near and/or in that class of ATGs during a championship series.

Unfortunately you gotta include the bad with the good, and guy just wasn't consistent enough for this question not to sound...ridiculous.

[Quickening]

MJ fans suddenly crying about stats when they show Lebron had a better finals prime :lol

[NBAGOAT]

No. Using numbers only to decide who is the better Finals performer is stupid. Different context, different teams, different ways to play the game. Lebon could score 30 points in the first 3 quarters and 2 in the last, ending with 32 after missing wide open jumshot after wide open jumpshot. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time. MJ could score 28 over the first three quarters and dominate the last 5 mins by scoring 10, ending with 38.

How can the box score tell you this? Or worse, how can a 5 year summary tell you this?

well I never said the box score can't be deceiving, just that lebron's not an empty stats guy. I agree, eye test is definitely important and more likely more so than stats.. The only problem with the eye test is some people use it just to make outrageous claims when they have nothing else to back it up. Also, biases can kick in myself included.

[tpols]

There are empty stats guys out there but lebron's not one of them.

I dont think anyone's going to argue Lebron is pure empty stats.. he obviously has tremendous impact on the game. But it is about mindset.. you know how kblaze always talks about certain players taking and missing 1 extra shot per game and how they are judged extra hard for it in the boxscores in hindsight? if a player has a mindset to be conservative with hurting himself in those areas it can definitely have a huge impact on what their stat sheet says over a long duration.


examples..

in 2014, Lebron didnt swing back against the spurs. The series was tied 1-1, and looked very evenly matched, kawai starts going off in game 3, but where is Bron's aggressiveness? In 2015 he took nearly double the shots when he saw his team needed him to relentlessly attack regardless of efficiency.. why the hell was he only taking half the amount in 2014? he built a pretty stat line but he wasn't even trying to win the games like he was in 2015 (where his efficiency suffered due to the high volume)

and then we saw a bit more of this dynamic this year in the finals in game 4 when he took 3 or 4 conceded layups in the last minute when his team desperately needed 3's to come back. It took his statline from 18 points on sub 50% shooting to 25 points on 50+% shooting.. that's a massive difference in the boxscore.. and will reflect in the averages, but it had nothing to do with winning the game. in 2011, the man nearly shot 50% as well.. while having the worst series of all time for a superstar.


Combine all this with all the ancedotes of bron and wade having FG battles, shaving their efficiencies to peak values.. LeBron at quite a few times has cared more much more about his efficiency than a jordan or a kobe who just go down swinging no matter what with zero regard for their boxscore FG.. they just play to win and thats it. Bron plays to win to, but you can see he has that alterior motive if shit hits the fan.. and thats when he goes into FG preservation mode and this has happened quite a few times.. not every time, but way more than it ever happened with MJ.

[3ball]

MJ 1st 3 Titles:

https://s31.postimg.org/xhj5dmt9n/Jordan1st3.jpg



Lebron's 1st 3 Titles

https://s32.postimg.org/ury5z7wv9/lebron3titles.jpg


Assists aren't a factor in the comparison, since Jordan averaged more assists.

So the comparison comes down to Jordan's extra 9 points versus Lebron's 4 extra defensive rebounds.

Obviously, Jordan's 9 points are worth more - let some unskilled big man grab the defensive rebounds.. Can you imagine if Lebron averaged 9 more points??.. He'd be on a different level entirely..
.

[Dray n Klay]

LMAO when you have to remove 2 finals series from a players career because they sh^t the bed, then I think that speaks for itself who the better finals performer is...
I didn't



No one did





The 27/10/7 includes LeBrons first 2 finals




Learn to read

[3ball]

Here's the PACE in the playoffs and Finals for each of Jordan and Lebron's championship runs



.
**each year is a link to source data (bballref)**


PLAYOFFS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1991.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.3
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html#all_misc_stats):. 91.7
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.8
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.1
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.2
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats):. 85.9

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.8
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.0
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.6
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats):. 94.4
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2016.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.0




FINALS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):. 85.8
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):. 92.3
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):. 89.7
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):. 83.5
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):. 84.0
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):. 82.0

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html):. 82.8
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html):. 85.5
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html):. 88.6
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html):. 88.1
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html):. 87.4
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 90.7
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 92.0



Summary:

Pace was THE SAME during Jordan and Lebron's championship runs.

Also, Jordan only averaged 1 less assist than Lebron in the Finals, with less turnovers.. So the Finals comparison comes down to Jordan's 7 more points (with better efficiency) versus Lebron's 4 more defensive rebounds.

Can you imagine if Lebron averaged 7 more points with better efficiency?.. He'd be on a different level... So Jordan's 7 points is more important than Lebron's 4 defensive rebounds.. Let some unskilled big man grab the boards.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The 27/10/7 includes LeBrons first 2 finals

Anybody have his numbers without the PUTRID 2007 and 2011 performances?

[3ball]

Anybody have his numbers without the PUTRID 2007 and 2011 performances?



Lebron's 1st 3 Titles - FINALS STATS

https://s32.postimg.org/ury5z7wv9/lebron3titles.jpg


Jordan's 1st 3 Titles - FINALS STATS:

https://s31.postimg.org/xhj5dmt9n/Jordan1st3.jpg




Jordan averaged more assists, so let's ignore that for now.

The comparison comes down to Jordan's extra 9 points (with better efficiency) versus Lebron's 5 extra defensive rebounds.

Obviously, Jordan's 9 points are worth more - let some unskilled big man grab the defensive rebounds.. Can you imagine if Lebron averaged 9 more points on better efficiency??.. He'd be on a different level entirely..
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What the f*ck. :oldlol: Bron's numbers are basically the same with or without his 2 worst series...unless I'm totally reading these numbers wrong.

[Dray n Klay]

What the f*ck. :oldlol: Bron's numbers are basically the same with or without his 2 worst series...unless I'm totally reading these numbers wrong.


You're reading it wrong


3ball just posted LeBrons 3 championship wins



LeBron without his first 2 finals is 30/10/8 MUCH Better than Jordan's Finals stats

[juju151111]

What the f*ck. :oldlol: Bron's numbers are basically the same with or without his 2 worst series...unless I'm totally reading these numbers wrong.
He posted the first 3. 3ball a idiot and how are people not including 2011. He was already a two time mvp woth wade n bosh on his team

[3ball]

What the f*ck. :oldlol: Bron's numbers are basically the same with or without his 2 worst series...unless I'm totally reading these numbers wrong.


Those are RoundMound's stats for Lebron's 3 Finals wins (2012, 2013, 2016), versus Jordan's first 3 wins (91-93').

I haven't verified their accuracy, although I know the Jordan stats are correct.

Assuming Lebron's stats are correct, Jordan averaged MORE assists - so let's just ignore the assists for now... This means the comparison comes down to Jordan's extra 9 points (with better efficiency) versus Lebron's 5 extra defensive rebounds.

Obviously, Jordan's 9 points are worth more - let some unskilled big man grab the defensive rebounds.. Can you imagine if Lebron averaged 9 more points on better efficiency??.. He'd be on a different level entirely..

[juju151111]

You're reading it wrong


3ball just posted LeBrons 3 championship wins



LeBron without his first 2 finals is 30/10/8 MUCH Better than Jordan's Finals stats
If you take out two LJ worse finals then you would of to take out Mj two worse too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're reading it wrong


3ball just posted LeBrons 3 championship wins



LeBron without his first 2 finals is 30/10/8 MICH Better than Jordan's Finals stats

Yeah figured something was off there.

Just like I said a few posts up, though, despite his first 2 disasters, LeBron has still managed to put himself in that ATG category of elite Finals performers.

A pretty remarkable turn-around when you think about it. He's proved many including myself WRONG. :applause:

[Dray n Klay]

If you take out two LJ worse finals then you would of to take out Mj two worse too.


Nope


Jordan wasn't only 22 years in his first finals like LeBron in 2007





What makes sense is taking LeBrons 2011-2016 vs Jordan's 6 Finals




LeBrons 6 vs Jordans 6 Finals






LeBron is the better finals performer

[Da_Realist]

I dont think anyone's going to argue Lebron is pure empty stats.. he obviously has tremendous impact on the game. But it is about mindset.. you know how kblaze always talks about certain players taking and missing 1 extra shot per game and how they are judged extra hard for it in the boxscores in hindsight? if a player has a mindset to be conservative with hurting himself in those areas it can definitely have a huge impact on what their stat sheet says over a long duration.


examples..

in 2014, Lebron didnt swing back against the spurs. The series was tied 1-1, and looked very evenly matched, kawai starts going off in game 3, but where is Bron's aggressiveness? In 2015 he took nearly double the shots when he saw his team needed him to relentlessly attack regardless of efficiency.. why the hell was he only taking half the amount in 2014? he built a pretty stat line but he wasn't even trying to win the games like he was in 2015 (where his efficiency suffered due to the high volume)

and then we saw a bit more of this dynamic this year in the finals in game 4 when he took 3 or 4 conceded layups in the last minute when his team desperately needed 3's to come back. It took his statline from 18 points on sub 50% shooting to 25 points on 50+% shooting.. that's a massive difference in the boxscore.. and will reflect in the averages, but it had nothing to do with winning the game. in 2011, the man nearly shot 50% as well.. while having the worst series of all time for a superstar.


Combine all this with all the ancedotes of bron and wade having FG battles, shaving their efficiencies to peak values.. LeBron at quite a few times has cared more much more about his efficiency than a jordan or a kobe who just go down swinging no matter what with zero regard for their boxscore FG.. they just play to win and thats it. Bron plays to win to, but you can see he has that alterior motive if shit hits the fan.. and thats when he goes into FG preservation mode and this has happened quite a few times.. not every time, but way more than it ever happened with MJ.

:applause:

[3ball]

Just like I said a few posts up, though, despite his first 2 disasters, LeBron has still managed to put himself in that ATG category of elite Finals performers.


How can Lebron's performance be in Jordan's category when he averaged 7 less points on worse efficiency?

That makes no sense.

You're saying that Lebron's 4 extra defensive rebounds is equal to Jordan's 7 more points on better efficiency, which is a ridiculous double standard - anytime a #1 option averages 7 more points on better efficency, they're considered FAR better.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Seems pretty clear LeBron is certainly up there in the GOAT conversation for finals performers, but MJ is still king.

Who else is up there in best finals? Magic? Bird?

[juju151111]

Nope


Jordan wasn't only 22 years in his first finals like LeBron in 2007





What makes sense is taking LeBrons 2011-2016 vs Jordan's 6 Finals




LeBrons 6 vs Jordans 6 Finals






LeBron is the better finals performer
Na LJ had been in the league for 4-5 years before the 07 finals. You can't take it out unless you take 96 and 98 out for Mj. Mj also retired at his prime 31-32 .

[kamil]

LOL @ this thread. LeBron*.. better than MJ?

hahahaahaha

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Seems pretty clear LeBron is certainly up there in the GOAT conversation for finals performers, but MJ is still king.

Who else is up there in best finals? Magic? Bird?

Yup.

Evidently some posters have severe comprehension issues though. Where being one of the ATG performers = "Jordan's equal".

[red1]

LOL @ this thread. LeBron*.. better than MJ?

hahahaahaha
this post reeks of insecure bald man

[kamil]

this post reeks of insecure bald man

LeBron*?

[red1]

kamil*

http://www.chessgames.com/portraits/hansarildrunde.jpg

[Carbine]

First of all theirs way more to basketball than box scores.

Not all points, rebounds, assists, turnovers, steals, etc are created equal.

Use your ****ing brain people. Here are the true stats for them for what it's worth.


LeBron finals full stat line:

40 games played

26.8 PPG
9.5 RPG
7.5 APG
3.8 Turnovers per game

.532 TS%
45.3 FG%


Michael Jordan:

33.6 PPG
6RPG
6APG
2.8 Turnover per game

56 TS%
48 FG%

[Odinn]

Jordan. I don't think it's up debate. Even after 2016 finals.
MJ had 2 legendary finals in 1991 and 1993 like LeBron's in 2016. (You can throw 2012 there if you want to, but I believe it's a notch below.) Yet MJ never made his team losing side like LeBron did it in 2011.
Being able to reach MJ's level is one thing, surpassing Jordan is completely another thing.

Jordan and Shaq still top 2 Finals performers ever, IMO.

[kamil]

kamil*

http://www.chessgames.com/portraits/hansarildrunde.jpg

LOL, you guys are losers thinking its funny to mock baldness to a guy thats not even bald.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan's the GOAT Finals performer, but LeBron's last 5 Finals overall have been great, and he had a GOAT tier Finals this year

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan's the GOAT Finals performer, but LeBron's last 5 Finals overall have been great, and he had a GOAT tier Finals this year

27/10/7 > 33/6/6 :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

27/10/7 > 33/6/6 :confusedshrug:

6 more ppg isn't a small difference. That's the difference between 'great' and 'GOAT' level scoring. That's like the difference between the number scorer in the league(Curry) and #7 scorer ( Anthony Davis). By any other measure you'd consider that two different classes of scorer, so don't trivialize the difference here and its importance. Alpha scoring is the number one skill to possess in basketball.

3 less rebounds from the backcourt position while being 2-3 shorter and 50 pounds lighter. Breaking news at 7.

1 less assist playing mainly off the ball in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers.

:confusedshrug:

[Dray n Klay]

6 more points isn't a small difference. That's the difference between 'great' and 'GOAT' level scoring.

3 less rebounds from the backcourt position while being 2-3 shorter and 50 pounds lighter. Breaking news at 7.

1 less assist playing mainly off the ball in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers.

:confusedshrug:

You have to remember, LeBron has faced tougher defenses and stronger teams overall in the Finals.

You're comparing LeBron scoring against GOAT defenses like the Spurs and the Warriors, while Jordan scored against the Suns (one of the worst defensive teams of that era)

[Dragonyeuw]

You have to remember, LeBron has faced tougher defenses and stronger teams overall in the Finals.

You're comparing LeBron scoring against GOAT defenses like the Spurs and the Warriors, while Jordan scored against the Suns (one of the worst defensive teams of that era)

Defenses that pretty much played him by sagging off and daring him to shoot, and would have worked this last series if Lebron hadn't miraculously remembered how to shoot the last 3 games. Give MJ 5 feet and dare him to shoot, see how far that strategy gets you. 33ppg would have been the lowest PPG MJ would score in the finals if you're going to let him shoot.

[Dray n Klay]

Defenses that pretty much played him by sagging off and daring him to shoot, and would have worked this last series if Lebron hadn't miraculously remembered how to shoot the last 3 games. Give MJ 5 feet and dare him to shoot, see how far that strategy gets you.


Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game compared to Jordan? LeBron is devastating at penetrating a defense, and can quickly beat a team doing that.



Jordan wasn't as good in driving, so teams didn't have to sag off to close driving lanes.





Teams would sag off Shaq more than Tony Parker outside of 15 feet, that doesn't make Tony Parker a better offensive player :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

6 more ppg isn't a small difference. That's the difference between 'great' and 'GOAT' level scoring. That's like the difference between the number scorer in the league(Curry) and #7 scorer ( Anthony Davis). By any other measure you'd consider that two different classes of scorer, so don't trivialize the difference here and its importance. Alpha scoring is the number one skill to possess in basketball.

3 less rebounds from the backcourt position while being 2-3 shorter and 50 pounds lighter. Breaking news at 7.

1 less assist playing mainly off the ball in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers.

:confusedshrug:


Hey Dray N Klay - I don't even need to post in this thread

i see that dragonyeuw took care of you already.

[branslowski]

I dont think anyone's going to argue Lebron is pure empty stats.. he obviously has tremendous impact on the game. But it is about mindset.. you know how kblaze always talks about certain players taking and missing 1 extra shot per game and how they are judged extra hard for it in the boxscores in hindsight? if a player has a mindset to be conservative with hurting himself in those areas it can definitely have a huge impact on what their stat sheet says over a long duration.


examples..

in 2014, Lebron didnt swing back against the spurs. The series was tied 1-1, and looked very evenly matched, kawai starts going off in game 3, but where is Bron's aggressiveness? In 2015 he took nearly double the shots when he saw his team needed him to relentlessly attack regardless of efficiency.. why the hell was he only taking half the amount in 2014? he built a pretty stat line but he wasn't even trying to win the games like he was in 2015 (where his efficiency suffered due to the high volume)

and then we saw a bit more of this dynamic this year in the finals in game 4 when he took 3 or 4 conceded layups in the last minute when his team desperately needed 3's to come back. It took his statline from 18 points on sub 50% shooting to 25 points on 50+% shooting.. that's a massive difference in the boxscore.. and will reflect in the averages, but it had nothing to do with winning the game. in 2011, the man nearly shot 50% as well.. while having the worst series of all time for a superstar.


Combine all this with all the ancedotes of bron and wade having FG battles, shaving their efficiencies to peak values.. LeBron at quite a few times has cared more much more about his efficiency than a jordan or a kobe who just go down swinging no matter what with zero regard for their boxscore FG.. they just play to win and thats it. Bron plays to win to, but you can see he has that alterior motive if shit hits the fan.. and thats when he goes into FG preservation mode and this has happened quite a few times.. not every time, but way more than it ever happened with MJ.

👏👏👏👏This.

[livinglegend]

Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game compared to Jordan? LeBron is devastating at penetrating a defense, and can quickly beat a team doing that.



Jordan wasn't as good in driving, so teams didn't have to sag off to close driving lanes.





Teams would sag off Shaq more than Tony Parker outside of 15 feet, that doesn't make Tony Parker a better offensive player :confusedshrug:

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

You have to remember, LeBron has faced tougher defenses and stronger teams overall in the Finals.

You're comparing LeBron scoring against GOAT defenses like the Spurs and the Warriors, while Jordan scored against the Suns (one of the worst defensive teams of that era)
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

Anyone has MJ's finals stats without Pippen?

[andgar923]

Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game
:lol :roll:

Stopped reading there

Hilarious

[hiphopfan777]

Lebron jams most overrated superstar player. Up there with allen iverson

[J Shuttlesworth]

Can someone post up Bird/Magic/Shaq Finals stats?

[Dray n Klay]

Anyone has MJ's finals stats without Pippen?

:applause:

[scuzzy]

Dray n Klay DESTROYING 3ball all over the place


HOLY SHITT


HAHAHAHHAA. :roll:

[GrapeApe]

Jordan is the GOAT finals performer. He never had a bad finals. Of all the so-called "unbreakable" records in sports, Jordan's 6/6 with 6 FMVP's might be the least talked about. There's a good chance it will never be duplicated.

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan is the GOAT finals performer. He never had a bad finals. Of all the so-called "unbreakable" records in sports, Jordan's 6/6 with 6 FMVP's might be the least talked about. There's a good chance it will never be duplicated.

Why are you bringing up 6/6? Thats a team record




LeBrons 27/10/7 > Jordans 33/6/6




Especially when you consider LeBron faced tougher defenses and better teams overall

[Dray n Klay]

Dray n Klay DESTROYING 3ball all over the place


HOLY SHITT


HAHAHAHHAA. :roll:

:oldlol:


:hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime:

[SexSymbol]

Obviously Jordan. Never lost, despite playing all-time greats in every series. Superior stats, never even needed a game 7, superior offense and defense and at times playmaking.
There's nothing that LeBron has on Jordan in terms of finals performance

[Keno]

lebron will have one more finals performance next year like he did this year, and this discussion will be over. he already has the best finals performance of all time after this year, i wouldn't doubt if he did something similar next.

[SexSymbol]

lebron will have one more finals performance next year like he did this year, and this discussion will be over.
At least we could try to discuss it if he has one or two more performances like this, because as of now it's a complete joke to compare LeBron's weak ass to Jordan, who was literally perfect in the finals.

[Dragonyeuw]

Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game compared to Jordan? LeBron is devastating at penetrating a defense, and can quickly beat a team doing that.





Umm no, its what any defense as sophisicated as what you see in high school would figure out: pick out an obvious weakpoint and make him beat you with it. Kudos to Lebron for finding his jumpshot at the most appropriate time, but that could have gone the other way and people like you were one game away from jumping off the nearest cliff.

[GrapeApe]

Why are you bringing up 6/6? Thats a team record




LeBrons 27/10/7 > Jordans 33/6/6




Especially when you consider LeBron faced tougher defenses and better teams overall

The point is he never lost in the finals and he never had a bad finals. If you want to eliminate the 6/6 he's still got twice as many FMVP's as anyone else. His 6 FMVP's alone will likely never be duplicated.

Also, your stats are wrong as usual. If you feel the need to misrepresent the numbers, your argument obviously isn't very strong.

[livinglegend]

The point is he never lost in the finals and he never had a bad finals. If you want to eliminate the 6/6 he's still got twice as many FMVP's as anyone else. His 6 FMVP's alone will likely never be duplicated.

Also, your stats are wrong as usual. If you feel the need to misrepresent the numbers, your argument obviously isn't very strong.
Here's another point:
He never won a playoffs series without Pippen and it will stay like that forever.
He won 1 game out of 10 without him.
He also played 5 seasons without Pippen and all of those season, he had a losing record.

[eliteballer]

6/6 vs 3/7 pretty much says it all:roll:

[Micku]

Seems pretty clear LeBron is certainly up there in the GOAT conversation for finals performers, but MJ is still king.

Who else is up there in best finals? Magic? Bird?

Shaq. His numbers> all when you collect his best finals.

2000:
38.0 ppg, 17 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1 spg, 3 bpg. 61% FG. 58% TS.

2001:
33.0 ppg, 16 rpg, 5 apg, 0.4 spg, 3 bpg, 57% FG. 58% TS.

2002:
36 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, .5 spg, 3 bpg, 60% FG. 64% TS.

[Micku]

And it's amazing how LB kept amazing numbers considering those bad finals he had in 2007 and 2011.

To me, it's MJ. He's still on top. He was more consistent. Peak in the first 3 finals. His 2nd peat was worse than his 1st peak, but it's better than a lot of players. But MJ never had a horrible finals like LBJ. 2011 was just bad. 2007 he was bad, but shouldn't have made it there.

2013 was bad too, but the last two games he really stepped it up.

But Lebron in this last finals was pretty amazing. Among the best.

[Sarcastic]

Lebron has lost more series than Jordan has had bad games.

[Odinn]

Can someone post up Bird/Magic/Shaq Finals stats?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411899
(No need for bump. Just wanted to keep it short.)

[diamenz]

Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game compared to Jordan? LeBron is devastating at penetrating a defense, and can quickly beat a team doing that.



Jordan wasn't as good in driving, so teams didn't have to sag off to close driving lanes.





Teams would sag off Shaq more than Tony Parker outside of 15 feet, that doesn't make Tony Parker a better offensive player :confusedshrug:

dude. lol...

jordan could get to any spot on the court he wanted to with a simple hesitation move or two dribbles as long as there was an open lane. this is why he would thrive today. have you seen his drives from the eighties? come on man - you just made yourself look really bad there.

[ClipperRevival]

Seriously?

One guy averaged almost 7 more ppg on better efficiency, was never stretched to a game 7, went 6/6 with 6 fmvp and was amazing outside of one final (1996). And that would qualify as a very, very good series for almost any other all time great.

Bron had a series for the ages but one series doesn't mean he surpasses MJ. People need to be OBJECTIVE when it comes to discussions like this. If Bron has a couple more series like this, then we can seriously talk. But right now? Come on.

[GrapeApe]

Here's another point:
He never won a playoffs series without Pippen and it will stay like that forever.
He won 1 game out of 10 without him.
He also played 5 seasons without Pippen and all of those season, he had a losing record.

What does that have to do with Jordan's finals performances? Why are you talking about Pippen? All of that is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Again, if a player has twice as many FMVP's as anyone else in history, it's safe to say that he's the GOAT finals performer.

[ClipperRevival]

Question for Bron fans. Replace MJs finals accomplishments and give it Bron and vice versa. Who do you think would have the stronger case for better finals performer?

[Dray n Klay]

Question for Bron fans. Replace MJs finals accomplishments and give it Bron and vice versa. Who do you think would have the stronger case for better finals performer?

Umm.. Is this a joke? Jordan

[scandisk_]

Some of you are really sleeping on Shaq

That first 3-peat statline at worst is on par with MJ's.

[ClipperRevival]

You bozos mentioning Pip and the 1-9 are honestly idiots. I am sorry but it's true. You just aren't aware of the situation. You youngsters need to study up on this. No player gets as disected as MJ. He's the only guy in history who was supposed to win right away as a rookie, despite no help.

[SamuraiSWISH]

6 more ppg isn't a small difference. That's the difference between 'great' and 'GOAT' level scoring. That's like the difference between the number scorer in the league(Curry) and #7 scorer ( Anthony Davis). By any other measure you'd consider that two different classes of scorer, so don't trivialize the difference here and its importance. Alpha scoring is the number one skill to possess in basketball.

3 less rebounds from the backcourt position while being 2-3 shorter and 50 pounds lighter. Breaking news at 7.

1 less assist playing mainly off the ball in an offense that deflates individual assist numbers.

:confusedshrug:
:applause:

Beautiful post.

Hell, a 2 to 4 PPG difference can quantify a different class of scorer. But over 5 PPG differential? That is a major leap.

And LeBron is a very good scorer. But a whopping 6 PPG almost 7 PPG difference? That trumps a couple rebounds here and there while being 2 to 3 inches taller. Difference between very good and the GREATEST.

The rest is spot on. Especially the small assist per game difference, where LeBron is basically a ball dominant point guard on offense, and Mike played off the ball in the triangle's equal opportunity offense.

MJ is the greatest Finals performer ever. I guess if I had to rank the ones I've seen.

1) MJ
2) Shaq (2006 stinker)
3) LeBron (2007, and 2011 stinkers)
4) Wade (2014 stinker)
5) Duncan (2007 stinker)
6) Kobe (2004 stinker)

I don't want to denigrate LeBron at this point. This ring was actually truly earned. And fans around the world, himself included, obviously felt that gratification of hardwork and adversity much more. So please overzealous and short term memory LeBron stans ... Don't start acting crazy. I'm already seeing it from the likes of pseudo trolls like ArbitraryWater. Calm down and enjoy. Don't make myself and others dislike LeBron after his greatest career achievement and moment.

[ClipperRevival]

Umm.. Is this a joke? Jordan

You tell me.

You prefer 6/6 or 3/7?

6 fmvp or 3 fmvp?

33.6 ppg on better efficiency or 27.0 ppg?

Never stretched to a game 7 or have a w-l finals record well below .500?

****'n dumbass.

[Dray n Klay]

You tell me.

You prefer 6/6 or 3/7?

6 fmvp or 3 fmvp?

33.6 ppg on better efficiency or 27.0 ppg?

Never stretched to a game 7 or have a w-l finals record well below .500?

****'n dumbass.


What does 6/6 and 3/7 have to do about anything?


Both Jordan and LeBron have been the best player in 5 Finals.


It's not LeBrons fault his supporting cast was shit in 2007, 2014, 2015 :confusedshrug:

The fact that you had to resort to 6/6 >> 3/7 after 5 pages of undeniable proof that LeBron >> Jordan as a Finals performer tells me you're a blatant troll that shouldn't be taken seriously. :sleeping

[SamuraiSWISH]

Both Jordan and LeBron have been the best player in 5 Finals.
Cute trying to slip that in ... No one was better than MJ, even in his worst Finals vs Seattle.

[Bankaii]

Cute trying to slip that in ... No one was better than MJ, even in his worst Finals vs Seattle.
That's highly debatable unless you're talking about just the Bulls players.

[ClipperRevival]

What does 6/6 and 3/7 have to do about anything?


Both Jordan and LeBron have been the best player in 5 Finals.


It's not LeBrons fault his supporting cast was shit in 2007, 2014, 2015 :confusedshrug:

The fact that you had to resort to 6/6 >> 3/7 after 5 pages of undeniable proof that LeBron >> Jordan as a Finals performer tells me you're a blatant troll that shouldn't be taken seriously. :sleeping

Please kid.

Only because MJ didn't lose any finals the reason why MJ fans can't come up with the excuse that he didn't have enough help. He didn't let it get to that. His team didn't have HC advantage in 1993 and 1998. So you're going to fault a guy for always showing up when it mattered most? :oldlol:

I am sorry MJ never went into a shell like Bron in 2011.

[ClipperRevival]

What does 6/6 and 3/7 have to do about anything?


Both Jordan and LeBron have been the best player in 5 Finals.


It's not LeBrons fault his supporting cast was shit in 2007, 2014, 2015 :confusedshrug:

The fact that you had to resort to 6/6 >> 3/7 after 5 pages of undeniable proof that LeBron >> Jordan as a Finals performer tells me you're a blatant troll that shouldn't be taken seriously. :sleeping

And another thing. If Bron was the one that was 6/6 instead of MJ, you would parade that all day. GTFOH.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's highly debatable unless you're talking about just the Bulls players.
Highly debatable?

No one was better on Chicago. On Seattle? Only person I could see an argument for was Kemp. Who was just dominating Rodman for much of the series.

I'd say Jordan, even with his shooting slump and Kemp were about equal. Their game score average for the series was similar.

No one ever on his team or otherwise definitively outplayed him in a Finals series.

[Bankaii]

No one was better on Chicago. On Seattle? Only person I could see an argument for was Kemp. Who was just dominating Rodman for much of the series. I'd say Jordan, even with his shooting slump and Kemp were about equal. No one ever on his team or otherwise definitively outplayed him.
I've gone back and watched the series myself, but just looking at the stats Kemp was the best player in that series.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've gone back and watched the series myself, but just looking at the stats Kemp was the best player in that series.
Their game score was nearly identical. 18.9 to 18.5 ... So, kind of wrong.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ, in his worst finals in 1996 put up these numbers in the first 3 games, when the series was still up for grabs. After going up 3-0, he let up a bit.

31.0 PG, 46% FG, 5.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.0 SPG

This is what the GOAT does. His worst outing is a very good series for anyone else.

[ClipperRevival]

I've gone back and watched the series myself, but just looking at the stats Kemp was the best player in that series.

:roll:

[Dray n Klay]

Is it that hard to admit 27/10/7 is better than 33/6/6???

Especially when LeBron has played tougher defenses and stronger teams overall









These MJ stans are pathetic :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ, in his worst finals in 1996 put up these numbers in the first 3 games, when the series was still up for grabs. After going up 3-0, he let up a bit.

31.0 PG, 46% FG, 5.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.0 SPG

This is what the GOAT does. His worst outing is a very good series for anyone else.
Well yeah the series was over and foot off the pedal after Jordan's dominant road game to essentially make the series insurmountable for Seattle in that game 3. Buddy is lying. He's just box score watching. And even then Mike and Kemp's game score are very similar. I remember watching that series and thinking how great The Reign Man was playing though.

[TheMan]

Umm you do realize the sagging defense was due to LeBrons superior driving game compared to Jordan? LeBron is devastating at penetrating a defense, and can quickly beat a team doing that.



Jordan wasn't as good in driving, so teams didn't have to sag off to close driving lanes.





Teams would sag off Shaq more than Tony Parker outside of 15 feet, that doesn't make Tony Parker a better offensive player :confusedshrug::biggums: :wtf: :facepalm
http://eduncovered.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/its-time-to-stop-posting.jpg

[TheMan]

BTW, they sag off LJ because his shot is inconsistent af, so THEY DARE HIM AND WANT HIM TO SHOOT YOU IDIOT.

With MJ, teams had to choose their poison, get up on him and watch him blow past his defender or give him space and watch him hit jumper after jumper.

That's why he's the GOAT...no weakness in his game :pimp:

Mind you, we're also talking about MJ well into his 30s while Bran is barely 31...

[Bankaii]

:roll:
You're a MJ bandwagoner that's been exposed on you lack of knowledge in the past.
The series is a best of 7 games, you can't just exclude Jordan choking in the Finals games.

Kemp was the best player in the series, the stats reflect this.
Just be happy Payton got switched onto MJ later in the series (which you weren't aware of a while ago), or your idol may have lost.

[Collie]

7 ppg > 3 rpg, 1apg

[Bond007]

MJ

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kemp was the best player in the series, the stats reflect this.
Game Score, the combined measure of statistical production. Jordan's worst Finals.

Kemp: 18.9
Jordan: 18.5

If you want to argue Kemp is better, fine, but it's an argument. And hardly significant difference.

[JohnnyA]

I'm a LeBron fan but I'd still give Jordan the nod.

Some random thoughts:
- LeBron has played better overall defence IMO.
- Curious as to what the respective win shares are.
- MJ more consistent (i.e. 2011).
- Context.

[Bawkish]

is this a joke?

MJ will not be dominated by the likes of Jason Terry, especially in the finals :lol

[Dray n Klay]

ClipperRevival got EXPOSED as a Jordan ******ging troll here. :oldlol:


Couldnt refute any of the facts, and had to resort to 6/6 > 3/7




I guess he admits Robert Horry is better than Jordan? :banana:



He's a biased troll that doesnt understand basketball

[NZStreetBaller]

:biggums: :wtf: :facepalm
http://eduncovered.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/its-time-to-stop-posting.jpg

This.

That dumbass seriously needs to atleast watch a jordan highlight video and then edit the post. Jordan is possibly the goat of driving

[Inferno]

Damn. Bran stans are rampant here now. :facepalm

[Dray n Klay]

Damn. Bran stans are rampant here now. :facepalm

What'd you think of the GOT season finale?

[NZStreetBaller]

What'd you think of the GOT season finale?

Why dont you try and show some class in victory?? Lebron did good and you're acting worse then any stan. Shut your face and get some other topics going as if to say that you dont need to prove anything anymore.

[TheMan]

ClipperRevival got EXPOSED as a Jordan ******ging troll here. :oldlol:


Couldnt refute any of the facts, and had to resort to 6/6 > 3/7




I guess he admits Robert Horry is better than Jordan? :banana:



He's a biased troll that doesnt understand basketball:facepalm
This nigguh doesn't know the difference between role players and championship team's centerpiece players...Steve Kerr > Jerry West :rolleyes:

[Ray22]

:oldlol:


All this thread does is confirming that Brontards are mentally challenged.

But I am sure that everyone knew that already..

[Lebronxrings]

Jordan stans reeking of insecurity.

[TheMan]

Jordan stans reeking of insecurity.
A LeBrontard made this thread you idiot:facepalm

[Dray n Klay]

A LeBrontard made this thread you idiot:facepalm

I'm a Warriors fan dumbass

[sportjames23]

LeBrons career Finals stats 27/10/7

Jordans career Finals stats 33/6/6




When you consider this comparison includes LeBrons 2007 and 2011 Finals, 2 poorly performed Finals, its astonishing how LeBron is STILL statistically superior in the finals compared to MJ



Think about it, LeBron was poor in his first 2 Finals, and STILL has a career Finals average of 27/10/7




27/10/7> 33/6/6

:confusedshrug:


6/6 >>>>>>>> 3/7

You know nothing, Dray n Klay.

[Lebronxrings]

6/6 >>>>>>>> 3/7

You know nothing, Dray n Klay.
Horry is the GOAT then

[Carbine]

Is it that hard to admit 27/10/7 is better than 33/6/6???

Especially when LeBron has played tougher defenses and stronger teams overall









These MJ stans are pathetic :oldlol:

Agenda is obvious though.

If you're going to round LeBron up to 27PPG, you may as well round Jordan up to 34.

LeBron averaged 9.5 RPG, but 10 looks better so you bump that up. :facepalm

Scoring 7 more points per game on higher percentages is more important than grabbing 2.5 more rebounds per game and one more assist.

Many rebounds go uncontested as well.

[Lebronxrings]

Agenda is obvious though.

If you're going to round LeBron up to 27PPG, you may as well round Jordan up to 34.

LeBron averaged 9.5 RPG, but 10 looks better so you bump that up. :facepalm

Scoring 7 more points per game on higher percentages is more important than grabbing 2.5 more rebounds per game and one more assist.

Many rebounds go uncontested as well.
hmmm you claim dray is rounding Jordan down when you're doing the same with lebron. I don't care about either side, but try to stay objective will ya?

[Carbine]

I didn't round down anything.

[diamenz]

these bron stans were still a seed when jordan played - they have absolutely no say whatsoever.

bron is top five in finals performances at this point, but has a ways to go (and probably already ruined it for himself) before he ranks > mj.

[Bankaii]

Why dont you try and show some class in victory?? Lebron did good and you're acting worse then any stan. Shut your face and get some other topics going as if to say that you dont need to prove anything anymore.
But when Lebron doesn't win it's ok that you and 70% of the forum posts absolute bullshit 24/7?