A primary reason why MJ's Finals > Lebron's 2016 Finals

[3ball]

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mistake thread mods delete

[keep-itreal]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12485879#post12485879

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClYUvAdUYAAiRj9.jpg

[3ball]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClYUvAdUYAAiRj9.jpg



Lebron needed a 7th game with those stats, specifically because he didn't score enough throughout the series - he averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO through 4 games, and then 36 ppg for the last 3 games.

If he averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series, like Jordan did in 1991-1993 Finals (36/7/8), then he wouldn't need a 7th game, like Jordan.

[zeerghit]

Lebron needed a 7th game with those stats, specifically because he didn't score enough throughout the series - he averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO through 4 games, and then 36 ppg for the last 3 games.

If he averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series, like Jordan did in 1991-1993 Finals (36/7/8), then he wouldn't need a 7th game, like Jordan.

they both are goats, end of story, stop this shit

[3ball]

they both are goats


there's no such thing as "goats".. the "greatest of all time" is a singular phrase

there's no need to be confused about it - Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, and both guys played against many of the same players - so since both guys played in the modern era, you can just use fmvp's and rings to determine the goat.

Infact, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), while winning all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship).

Other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best, so it's clear that both guys played in the modern era and you can just go by rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat - end of story.

[ScalsFan21]

So then if LeBron was able to get to 7 rings and 7 FMVPs (I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying), then that'll do it and the GOAT case is pretty much closed in your mind?

See, even as a LeBron stan I could never get on board with that being the final nail in the coffin. Just because they both played around the same time doesn't allow us to remove all context and say 6 > 3 (or 7 > 6 for that matter).

To imply that because both guys faced off against some of the same guys at different points of their careers, then that means ring/FMVP count becomes the end-all, be-all is incomplete af.

[3ball]

So then if LeBron was able to get to 7 rings and 7 FMVPs (I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying), then that'll do it and the GOAT case is pretty much closed in your mind?


Yes - if Lebron gets to 7 rings as the best player, then case closed - he's the goat.. if he got to 6 rings, he'd have a case





To imply that because both guys faced off against some of the same guys at different points of their careers, then that means ring/FMVP count becomes the end-all, be-all is incomplete af.


Winning rings is the ultimate team accomplishment, and winning fmvp is the ultimate individual accomplishment - the player with the most of these two things has accomplished the most in basketball.

but again, playing in the modern era and against similar-caliber players is a pre-requisite, so Jordan has done that with Lebron.. Otoh, Russell never played against anyone Jordan played against..





To imply that because both guys faced off against some of the same guys at different points of their careers, then that means ring/FMVP count becomes the end-all, be-all is incomplete af.


It isn't just SOME of the same guys - Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so there's a lot of overlap.. Infact, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - and they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), while winning all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship).

Other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best, so it's clear that both guys played in the modern era and you can just go by rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat - end of story.
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[SouBeachTalents]

Yes - if Lebron gets to 7 rings as the best player, then case closed - he's the goat.. if he got to 6 rings, he'd have a case



Winning rings is the ultimate team accomplishment, and winning fmvp is the ultimate individual accomplishment - the player with the most of these two things has accomplished the most in basketball.

but again, playing in the modern era and against similar-caliber players is a pre-requisite, so Jordan has done that with Lebron, but say, Russell never played against anyone Jordan played against.
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And Jordan never played against Wilt, Oscar, West, Pettit, Baylor etc.

[3ball]

And Jordan never played against Wilt, Oscar, West, Pettit, Baylor etc.


Irrelevant - you guys are trying to say that Lebron doesn't have to match Jordan's 6 rings and fmvp's, because Lebron plays in the "modern" era, right?

The point I'm making is that both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era and against many of the same players, so we CAN go by rings and fmvp's.

Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so there's a lot of overlap.. Infact, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - and they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), while winning all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship).

Other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best.. So it's clear that both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era and we can just go by rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat.
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[NZStreetBaller]

The fact that jordan was undefeated and no team could beat him even 3 times in the finals is enough.

All other stats are just minor BS that ish people like to use to complicate in their favour...

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan played in the easier no-perimeter zone defense era



This made offense MUCH easier as MJ never had to face weak-side defensive help, creating essentially 1 on 1 basketball with no weak-side help defenders

[3ball]

Jordan played in the easier no-perimeter zone defense era


Lebron plays in the hands-off, "hug your man in the paint" (armslength) era, also known as the new defensive 3 second era.





MJ never had to face weak-side defensive help, creating essentially 1 on 1 basketball with no weak-side help defenders


MJ faced plenty of weakside help.. But in all honesty, defenders usually weren't on the weakside to begin with - defenders stayed on the strongside because teams didn't have 3-pt floor-spreaders on the weakside (weakside spacing) to draw defenders away from the strongside..

With all defenders bunched up on the strongside due to lack of weakside spacing, Jordan faced more strongside defenders than today's player.. Compare the 2 gifs below - Jordan faces a ton of strongside defenders, while Lebron faces only 2 strongside defenders because weakside spacing has drawn the remaining defenders to the weakside, and too far away to help:

https://media.giphy.com/media/10RuiINsEB5SHm/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/SBoU7XAFaW4nK/giphy.gif