It's easy to show that MJ faced more defensive attention than Lebron

[3ball]

.
The defense had to give nearly the same attention to Kyrie because Lebron only outscored him by 2 ppg.

Otoh, Jordan outscored Pip by 11-20 ppg in each of his 6 Finals, so he faced all the defensive attention

no comparison - that's why Lebron was only double-teamed 18 times in the entire 2015 Finals, which is a joke compared to Jordan getting doubled every (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) possession.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[Smoke117]

Lebron > Kareem > MJ

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan played in the easier no-perimeter zone defense era



This made offense MUCH easier as MJ never had to face weak-side defensive help, creating essentially 1 on 1 basketball with no weak-side help defenders

[3ball]

Lebron > Kareem > MJ


Actually, Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league and both guys played against many of the same players - so since both guys played in the modern era, you can just use fmvp's and rings to determine the goat.

Infact - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), and won all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship).

Other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best, so it's clear that both guys played in the modern era and you can just go by rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat - end of story.

[NZStreetBaller]

Both men wudve adjusted if they were in eachothers era.... this is stupid....

[3ball]

Jordan played in the easier no-perimeter zone defense era


Lebron plays in the hands-off, "hug your man in the paint" (armslength) era, also known as the new defensive 3 second era.





MJ never had to face weak-side defensive help, creating essentially 1 on 1 basketball with no weak-side help defenders


MJ faced plenty of weakside help.. But in all honesty, defenders usually weren't on the weakside [I]to begin with - defenders stayed on the strongside because teams didn't have 3-pt floor-spreaders on the weakside (weakside spacing) to draw defenders away from the strongside..

With all defenders bunched up on the strongside, Jordan faced more strongside defenders than today's player, who benefits from weakside spacing.. Compare the 2 gifs below - Jordan faces a ton of strongside defenders, while Lebron faces only 2 strongside defenders because weakside spacing has drawn the remaining defenders to the weakside and too far to help:

https://media.giphy.com/media/10RuiINsEB5SHm/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/SBoU7XAFaW4nK/giphy.gif

[Lebron23]

Both men wudve adjusted if they were in eachothers era.... this is stupid....


This

[3ball]

Both men wudve adjusted if they were in each others era


:facepalm

Lebron's adjustment would be much harder because he wouldn't have teammates spacing the floor for him via 3-pointers in the 80's or 90's - he would go from spacing to no-spacing, whereas Jordan would go from no-spacing to spacing, which is much easier.. Certainly, the floor setup in the 80's and 90's no-spacing environments was COMPLETELY different, so today's skillsets wouldn't be as effective back then.

Specifically, players in previous eras were forced to use their midrange jumpshot rather than get to the rim because the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to overcrowd the paint.. Here's a reminder of the standard setup in this gif (https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif) - penetration isn't possible with so many bodies, so Jordan must pull-up from midrange..

This is the primary reason Lebron would be worse back then - his lack of midrange shooting ability - virtually ALL great perimeter scorers in the 80's and 90's had great midrange (just look at the top 10 scorers from 1986 or any year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html) in the 80's or 90's - everyone had great midrange).. But in today's game, it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) that most of the top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.

[NZStreetBaller]

:facepalm

Lebron's adjustment would be much harder because he wouldn't have teammates spacing the floor for him via 3-pointers in the 80's or 90's - he would go from spacing to no-spacing, whereas Jordan would go from no-spacing to spacing, which is much easier.. Certainly, the floor setup in the 80's and 90's no-spacing environments was COMPLETELY different, so today's skillsets wouldn't be as effective back then.

Specifically, players in previous eras were forced to use their midrange jumpshot rather than get to the rim because the lack of 3-point shooting allowed defenders to overcrowd the paint.. Here's a reminder of the standard setup in this gif (https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif) - penetration isn't possible, so Jordan must pull-up from midrange..

This is the primary reason Lebron would be worse back then - his lack of midrange shooting ability - virtually ALL great perimeter scorers in the 80's and 90's had great midrange (just look at the top 10 scorers from 1986 or any year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_top_10.html) in the 80's or 90's - everyone had great midrange).. But in today's game, it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) that most of the top perimeter scorers don't have good midrange jumpshots, because the spacing and hands-off defense allows them easier access to the rim.

If lebron grew up in the same time as jordan its very likely that he wouldve spent more time developing the skill set and play style necessary to succeed in the era.....

Why on earth do you act like lebron or any player not named jordan is some kind of robot who is only capable of their current play style.

All players are born with talent and natural born abilities. The play style which they choose to develop is dependent apon the style in which they are born in.....

I agree jordan would still be greater. But its not like lebron would be a complete useless scrub.

[Dray n Klay]

If lebron grew up in the same time as jordan its very likely that he wouldve spent more time developing the skill set and play style necessary to succeed in the era.....

Why on earth do you act like lebron or any player not named jordan is some kind of robot who is only capable of their current play style.

All players are born with talent and natural born abilities. The play style which they choose to develop is dependent apon the style in which they are born in.....

I agree jordan would still be greater. But its not like lebron would be a complete useless scrub.

Have you ever watched the movie 300??

[NZStreetBaller]

Have you ever watched the movie 300??

Nah i havent is that a movie??


What does that have to do with basketball?

[3ball]

Why on earth do you act like lebron or any player not named jordan is some kind of robot who is only capable of their current play style.



It's just a fact - Lebron can't bulldoze THROUGH players, which is what he would need to penetrate against the unspaced, overcrowded paints of previous eras


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


Since he can't go THROUGH players, he'd need a better midrange jumpshot, just like everyone else back then.






If lebron grew up in the same time as jordan its very likely that he wouldve spent more time developing the skill set and play style necessary to succeed in the era.....


So every player from prior eras will automatically have a 3-point shot if they played today?.. Obviously not, just like today's player wouldn't necessarily have a good midrange jumpshot.. Some guys just can't shoot - look how much Lebron works on his 3-point shot, yet he shot 30% this year and 32% for his playoff career.

Lebron has worked on his midrange shot a lot already too, yet he still shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17).. The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Derozan, Wade and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency, yet they're still top scorers because the spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

Jordan's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which would give him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.

[NZStreetBaller]

It's just a fact - Lebron can't bulldoze THROUGH players, which is what he would need to penetrate against the unspaced, overcrowded paints of previous eras


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


Since he can't go THROUGH players, he'd need a better midrange jumpshot, just like everyone else back then.




So every player from prior eras will automatically have a 3-point shot if they played today?.. Obviously not, just like today's player wouldn't necessarily have a good midrange jumpshot.. Some guys just can't shoot - look how much Lebron works on his 3-point shot, yet he shot 30% this year and 32% for his playoff career.

Lebron has worked on his midrange shot a lot already too, yet he still shot less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17).. The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Derozan, Wade and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency, yet they're still top scorers because the spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

Jordan's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which would give him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.

Omg u are so right. *** lebron lmao.

[diamenz]

Jordan played in the easier no-perimeter zone defense era



lebron plays in the easier no-interior defense era.

see how this works?