Why LeBron cannot ever be compared to Michael Jordan

[warriorfan]

Pippen was 4th in Per when MJ left

LeBron left his home team to join the 2nd and 4th leaders in PER (D.Wade and Chris Bosh)

What LeBron did was like if MJ left his hometown team to join Scottie Pippen AND Shaquile Oneal! (The 4th and 2nd leaders in PER of the 1994 season)

https://s31.postimg.org/enaz1o9wr/94per.png

https://s31.postimg.org/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg

[TheWinningFam]

Who's comparing lebron to jordan? :confusedshrug:
They're different players.. different skill sets

Also how many more meltdown threads do you plan on making?

[Lebron23]

Damn

So Chris Bosh > Kobe Bryant

[warriorfan]

Who's comparing lebron to jordan? :confusedshrug:
They're different players.. different skill sets

Also how many more meltdown threads do you plan on making?

What LeBron did was like if Michael Jordan joined up with Shaquile O'Neal AND Scottie Pippen

References: See Above

[TheWinningFam]

By this logic kobe wasn't even a top 5 player in 2009-10

[TheWinningFam]

What LeBron did was like if Michael Jordan joined up with Shaquile O'Neal AND Scottie Pippen

References: See Above
So you're saying Bosh is better than shaq and wade is better than pippen

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[warriorfan]

By this logic kobe wasn't even a top 5 player in 2009-10

Per is notoriously unfriendly to Kobe Bryant because of his unique style of play, the fact that he takes such a large percentage of his team's end of the shot clock and end of the quarter shots and gets assists soaked up from the triangle both deflate his PER

[warriorfan]

So you're saying Bosh is better than shaq and wade is better than pippen

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

How did you get Bosh being better than Shaq?

And Wade is better than Pippen?

I believe you need to reexamine the data

https://s31.postimg.org/enaz1o9wr/94per.png

https://s31.postimg.org/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg

The 2nd best players in the leagues were Shaq and Wade

The 4th best players in the leagues were Pippen and Bosh

[TheWinningFam]

How did you get Bosh being better than Shaq?

And Wade is better than Pippen?

I believe you need to reexamine the data

https://s31.postimg.org/enaz1o9wr/94per.png

https://s31.postimg.org/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg

The 2nd best players in the leagues were Shaq and Wade

The 4th best players in the leagues were Pippen and Bosh

Per is a flawed stat that doesn't really mean anything

So you're saying wade is better than shaq right?


[warriorfan]

Mybad i was barely paying attention

Per is a flawed stat that doesn't really mean anything

So you're saying wade is better than shaq right?


No, where did I say that?

This is the second time in a row you have attempted a straw man argument...

[K.dot ShowTime]

LeBron> MJ by the end of his career

[TheWinningFam]

No, where did I say that?

This is the second time in a row you have attempted a straw man argument...
How's it a strawman :facepalm
By what you just showed me Wade was a better player in 09 than shaq was entering his prime in 97-98 if we are going off per
Its a false dichotomy using a advanced stat that's flawed..

[warriorfan]

How's it a strawman :facepalm
By what you just showed me Wade was a better player in 09 than shaq was entering his prime in 97-98 if we are going off per
Its a false dichotomy using a advanced stat that's flawed..

You obviously don't understand PER...This is awkward

PER isn't supposed to be compared across years, especially not to be compared across eras. PER is normalized and averaged out by the entire set of data composed in a single year. In other words you can use PER numbers for comparison if they come from the same year's data. You CANNOT compare PERs if they come from different years data.

In other words if there are two players from 1994, you can use their PERs to compare the two

If there is a player from 1994 and a player from 2004, you cannot use their PERs for a straight comparison of the two

What you can do is see how their PER scores are relative to their peers of the same season

For example if a player has the 2nd best PER in the league, he more often than not the 2nd best player in the league

So to answer your question, in 2009 D Wade had the 2nd highest PER in the league and was the 2nd best player of the league

In 1998 Shaq had the highest PER in the league and was the best player in the league

Therefore I would say Shaq in 1998 was slightly better than Wade in 2009, but it is very close. Do you remember how dominant Wade was in 2009?

[TheWinningFam]

You obviously don't understand PER...This is awkward

PER isn't supposed to be compared across years, especially not to be compared across eras. PER is normalized and averaged out by the entire set of data composed in a single year. In other words you can use PER numbers for comparison if they come from the same year's data. You CANNOT compare PERs if they come from different years data.

If there is a player from 1994 and a player from 2004, you cannot use their PERs for a straight comparison of the two

So to answer your question, in 2009 D Wade had the 2nd highest PER in the league and was the 2nd best player of the league

In 1998 Shaq had the highest PER in the league and was the best player in the league

Therefore I would say Shaq in 1998 was slightly better than Wade in 2009, but it is very close. Do you remember how dominant Wade was in 2009?



1.So you're saying kobe at best was the third best player in the league..
2.Yes, wade dominated so much he lead his team to a record of 47-39 meanwhile shaq lead his team to a record of 61-21
Also this is basically saying bosh was better than kobe in 2009-2010 :facepalm it doesn't matter what his play style was you say kobe had no help in 2009-2010, why did he win a title with no help and not finish in the top 5 per wise? That stat is s.hit

[warriorfan]

1.So you're saying kobe at best was the third best player in the league..
2.Yes, wade dominated so much he lead his team to a record of 47-39 meanwhile shaq lead his team to a record of 61-21
Also this is basically saying bosh was better than kobe in 2009-2010 :facepalm it doesn't matter what his play style was you say kobe had no help in 2009-2010, why did he win a title with no help and not finish in the top 5 per wise? That stat is s.hit

I already stated how Kobe's extremely unique style of play under represents his PER. To be honest with 2009 it's a toss up between LeBron, Kobe, and Wade. They each had amazing seasons that year.

For your second point, Shaq had a much better record because he had a much better team. Shaq and Wade's level of play was very similar however Shaq's team was far superior. This is quite obvious...

[toxicxr6]

I already stated how Kobe's extremely unique style of play under represents his PER. To be honest with 2009 it's a toss up between LeBron, Kobe, and Wade. They each had amazing seasons that year.

For your second point, Shaq had a much better record because he had a much better team. Shaq and Wade's level of play was very similar however Shaq's team was far superior. This is quite obvious...


So the "chucker" skill set deflates PER? Well everyone knows that dumbass.. You play like crap you have a lower PER.. Which explains why kobes PER is always lower.

Advanced stats aren't everything. But they do tell a picture. You can break down the greats.. They all measure very highly in advanced stats.. Everyone...
Except Kobe.. He always fails.. And that shows why he isn't a top 10 player all time. He is a great player playing on a big market team.. With stacked rosters.
But he isn't a top 10 sorry

[Prometheus]

Dude you're equating PER rank to actual greatness rank.

If that's not a legit way to analyze, then your argument is worthless.

If it IS a legit way to analyze, then for every year LeBron led the league in PER, he was in fact the best player inthe world.

You lose either way.

[livingby3's]

Greg Oden is #8 and David Lee is #14.


Stephen Curry is #92 that year

[3ball]

Russell Westbrook reminds me of Jordan


Westbrook/Jordan have the perfect physique and quickness to slide through heavy traffic and get by defenders without needing a forearm.

But Westbrook is no Jordan - imagine if Russell Westbrook was 3 inches taller, much smarter with half the turnovers, amassed 3 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399) as many dunks each year, scored more points in HALF the time of possession, and shot a full 10 percentage points better than Westbrook, including a GOAT midrange jumpshot that was better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

That player would be the GOAT - that player was Michael Jordan.





Lebron still needs closers like Wade and Kyrie to slash/close out games


Jordan was the GOAT clutch player and the stats prove he carried a bigger load than Lebron: no all-time great led his team in scoring for every series of their career, let alone by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan (let that sink in).

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.





Lebron has great stats


Look at their playoff stats - Jordan averaged 5.5 more points with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg) and only 1 less assist - Jordan's 5.5 scoring edge requires more energy and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

And would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... No way - Lebron has MANY series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer (even an entire playoff run)... Obviously, his assists would plummet if he had Jordan's scoring load.





how do you compare MJ to Curry


Jordan made up for his inferior 3-point efficiency compared to Curry with far superior midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31) efficiency, and far less turnovers.. These things gave him superior per possession efficiency (ortg), which is more important than Curry's shooting efficiency - shooting efficiency FALLS UNDER THE UMBRELLA of per-possession efficiency.

Jordan's higher efficiency is remarkable considering he carried a bigger load: he produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with far less turnovers, while also carrying a bigger load on defense.

Also, Jordan was superior offensively even though Curry's teammates spaced the floor for him, and Jordan's didn't - Jordan's Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 25 per game for today's teams (30 per game for the Warriors and Cavs).. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), whereas he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's.. Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism with better jumpshooting from midrange than Curry.. that's the goat.





How do you compare MJ to Lebron?


Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so both guys played against many of the same players.. Infact - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - and they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), while winning all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship)..

Sure - some of these guys were young, but the point is that BOTH Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era, so we can use rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.

Aside from the 4 best players Lebron played against (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett), other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best.. So again - it's clear that both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era, so we can use rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat.





Did Jordan really have a worse supporting cast than Bron


Lebron's supporting cast added enough production on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games in 2009.. Contrastingly, Jordan's supporting cast only enough on top of his 33/8/8 to win 47 games in 1989..

The only possible reasons for Lebron's 19 extra wins despite his inferior production is that his supporting cast was better and his competition was inferior.. (brand of basketball wasn't a factor - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by Dwight Howard's Magic)

Ultimately, Jordan's impact in 1989 was GOAT - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.. Essentially, Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.