how good is Jordan?

[orange_chicken]

I've never seen MJ play because I was only a kid during the Bulls era so Im not going to claim his better or inferior to certain superstars today. But for those of you who grew up watching MJ, how good was this guy? I'd like to know your opinion. Was he that good like the hype or is he overrated? I've seen that as good a player as Lebron is with those stats he still needs a guy like Wade and Kyrie to slash/close out games during clutch time or a big that can shoot to create spacing. What about MJ, did he need someone to close out games? And how do you compare him to players like Curry/Lebron?

[ClipperRevival]

He is considered the GOAT by about 90% of people who have ever watched the game, including past NBA players. And that isn't coincidence. Every legend themselves say he is (Shaq, Bird, Magic, Kobe, LeBron, etc). He came, he saw, he conquered.

[Bawkish]

:oldlol: Pathetic.

i can't imagine someone's asking the same thing about Kobe :lol

[Prometheus]

For over a decade (excluding the anomolous two-year retirement) he was the best, most consistent, and most reliable scorer in the league... in the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals, and down the stretch of every game. Beyond dominating his era, he is the greatest scorer in basketball history (when factoring in the post-season).

For a majority of those years, he was also one of the very best defensive players in the league... especially within the category of perimeter defenders... and virtually always #1 at his position.

He demonstrated more competitive intensity, focus, determination, and commitment to winning than any of his peers. The intangible elements of his greatness are reflected in the fact that nearly all of his peers, and the vast majority of both his predecessors and those who came thereafter regard him as the greatest basketball player to ever live. Those who competed against him in his prime speak of him with a reverance that is unique among competitors. Many of them literally say that they were afraid to do anything to provoke him for fear of being embarrassed on the court.

He was drafted to a horrible franchise with absolutely no winning tradition. Over the course of his career he led them to six championships and elevated them to the third or fourth greatest franchise of all time. He did this while carrying the largest work load of any player ever, won five MVPs, was the MVP for every championship round, led the league in scoring in both the regular season and playoffs virtually every year, and even added a DPOY award as a shooting guard.

He was okay.

[Nilocon165]

Nikka dropped 37 with the flu

[fourkicks44]

He was a decent player, but at the expense of being a terrible person and teammate. I remember Jordan for being a gambling addict and a guy responsible for his own fathers death. To me, that situation is way bigger than basketball and a wake-up call to the fans that being good at basketball doesn't give you a free pass to be an awful person. We as a society shouldn't glorify Jordan's basketball achievements; but instead we should mourn and remember James Jordan's life.





https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/01/9e/ac/019eac028038f2a0d4235dae2f755a6b.jpg


Rest easy, big fella.

I have seen some weird bullshit on this board over the years but this is up there. What the actual f#ck.

[3ball]

Is Jordan worth the hype or is he overrated?


Players who were scoring champs AND 1st team all-defense:


Michael Jordan:. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Kobe Bryant:..... 2006, 2007
Kareem Jabbar:. 1971



Players who were scoring champs AND won championship:


Michael Jordan:... 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Shaquille O'Neal:. 2000
Kareem Jabbar:... 1971



Players who led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career:


Michael Jordan*


* led team in scoring by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920)






But for those of you who grew up watching MJ, how good was this guy?


Imagine if Russell Westbrook was 3 inches taller, much smarter with half the turnovers, amassed 3 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399) as many dunks each year, scored more points in HALF the time of possession, and shot a full 10 percentage points better than Westbrook, including a GOAT midrange jumpshot that was better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

That player would be the GOAT - that player was Michael Jordan.





Lebron still needs closers like Wade and Kyrie to slash/close out games


Jordan was the GOAT clutch player and the stats prove he carried a bigger load than Lebron: no all-time great led his team in scoring for every series of their career, let alone by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan (let that sink in).

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.





Lebron has great stats


Look at their playoff stats - Jordan averaged 5.5 more points with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg) and only 1 less assist - Jordan's 5.5 scoring edge requires more energy and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

And would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... No way - Lebron has MANY series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer (even an entire playoff run)... Obviously, his assists would plummet if he had Jordan's scoring load.





how do you compare MJ to Curry


Jordan made up for his inferior 3-point efficiency compared to Curry with far superior midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31) efficiency, and far less turnovers.. These things gave him superior per possession efficiency (ortg), which is more important than Curry's shooting efficiency - shooting efficiency FALLS UNDER THE UMBRELLA of per-possession efficiency.

Jordan's higher efficiency is remarkable considering he carried a bigger load: he produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with far less turnovers, while also carrying a bigger load on defense.

Also, Jordan was superior offensively even though Curry's teammates spaced the floor for him, and Jordan's didn't - Jordan's Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 25 per game for today's teams (30 per game for the Warriors and Cavs).. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), whereas he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's.. Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism with better jumpshooting from midrange than Curry.. that's the goat.





How do you compare MJ to Lebron?


Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so both guys played against many of the same players.. Infact - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Garnett are the best players Lebron ever played against - and they were all-stars in 1998 when Jordan dominated them more than Lebron ever has (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), while winning all the awards over them (MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, scoring title, championship)..

Sure - some of these guys were young, but the point is that BOTH Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era, so we can use rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.

Aside from the 4 best players Lebron played against (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett), other players also finished behind Jordan in 1998, including Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Payton, Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more - these guys are obviously equal or greater than today's best.. So again - it's clear that both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era, so we can use rings and fmvp's to determine the goat.. that means mj is the goat.





Did Jordan really have a worse supporting cast than Bron


Lebron's supporting cast added enough production on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games in 2009.. Contrastingly, Jordan's supporting cast only enough on top of his 33/8/8 to win 47 games in 1989..

The only possible reasons for Lebron's 19 extra wins despite his inferior production is that his supporting cast was better and his competition was inferior.. (brand of basketball wasn't a factor - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by Dwight Howard's Magic)

Ultimately, Jordan's impact in 1989 was GOAT - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.. Essentially, Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.
.

[TheWinningFam]

3ball back at it agian with his out of context stats and facts

[3ball]

3ball back at it agian with his out of context stats and facts


Other than the insane goat stats in the first response, which response above doesn't provide context?

Face the facts - Jordan's goat scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) load, team-leading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

It's all explained in the responses above.. :confusedshrug:

[poido123]

Other than the insane goat stats in the first response, which response above doesn't provide context?

Face the facts - Jordan's goat scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) load, team-leading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

It's all explained in the responses above.. :confusedshrug:


STFU


Jordan was a basketball legend. He had an aura about him when he played where before a game you wondered what heights he could reach the next game.

He was like a superhero.


I don't think words or stats do justice, there are plenty of videos of him, I encourage that you look for yourself. I was blessed to see him play through my childhood.

[3ball]

STFU


Jordan was a basketball legend. He had an aura about him when he played where before a game you wondered what heights he could reach the next game.

He was like a superhero.


I don't think words or stats do justice, there are plenty of videos of him, I encourage that you look for yourself. I was blessed to see him play through my childhood.


Agreed, except he wasn't just a legend, he's the goat.

The best videos I've seen are the following jordan channels:


mdestinier (https://www.youtube.com/user/medestinier/videos)
wisti93420 (https://www.youtube.com/user/wistiti93420/videos)
balthus23 (https://www.youtube.com/c/balthus23/videos)
nobody touches jordan (https://www.youtube.com/c/nobodytouchesjordan/videos) (shows his defense only)

[3ball]

For over a decade (excluding the anomolous two-year retirement) he was the best, most consistent, and most reliable scorer in the league... in the regular season, the playoffs, the Finals, and down the stretch of every game. Beyond dominating his era, he is the greatest scorer in basketball history (when factoring in the post-season).

For a majority of those years, he was also one of the very best defensive players in the league... especially within the category of perimeter defenders... and virtually always #1 at his position.

He demonstrated more competitive intensity, focus, determination, and commitment to winning than any of his peers. The intangible elements of his greatness are reflected in the fact that nearly all of his peers, and the vast majority of both his predecessors and those who came thereafter regard him as the greatest basketball player to ever live. Those who competed against him in his prime speak of him with a reverance that is unique among competitors. Many of them literally say that they were afraid to do anything to provoke him for fear of being embarrassed on the court.

He was drafted to a horrible franchise with absolutely no winning tradition. Over the course of his career he led them to six championships and elevated them to the third or fourth greatest franchise of all time. He did this while carrying the largest work load of any player ever, won five MVPs, was the MVP for every championship round, led the league in scoring in both the regular season and playoffs virtually every year, and even added a DPOY award as a shooting guard.

He was okay.



You forgot Jordan's team-leading passing, which everyone does:



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:



Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced




Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:



Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



The stats prove that Jordan assisted on the most teammate field goals during his 6-peat.

In case you forgot, I recommend youtubing "Jordan puppeteer" Part 1 and 2

[jstern]

He scored 38 points with the flu. Have you ever had the flu?

[AintNoSunshine]

Slightly better than Lebron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why are people giving serious responses to such an absurd thread. If you don't know how good Jordan was, you have no business posting on a basketball message board. OP is a fuccing doufus

[feyki]

Definitely overrated . Even .. Could be most overrated .

But Goat perimeter player in history for sure .

[r0drig0lac]

Why are people giving serious responses to such an absurd thread. If you don't know how good Jordan was, you have no business posting on a basketball message board. OP is a fuccing doufus
:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

He had the best attributes of Lebron, Kobe, and Wade's offensive ability:

- Best and most prolific mid-range shooter of the three
- Wasn't as 'shifty' as Wade in slashing, but at worst equal due to tremendous first step. Finished at the rim better due to size and athletic edge
- Had the 'uber' athleticism of Lebron in a smaller package. Not as fast in straight line end to end, but faster in the halfcourt due to superior first step quickness. More versatile one and two-foot jumper, allowing him to finish at the rim in craftier ways throwing the defender(s) off-balance. Often finished on the way down just before landing, adding to the 'hangtime' effect.
-GOAT level footwork, some would argue that Kobe's footwork is superior but Kobe's footwork is quite easily from MJ's blueprint.

Lockdown defender, whether it be pure man to man, playing the passing lanes, stripping the ball, and shotblocking. He and Wade are easily the GOAT guard shotblockers.

[andgar923]

Why are people giving serious responses to such an absurd thread. If you don't know how good Jordan was, you have no business posting on a basketball message board. OP is a fuccing doufus

to be fair, he's a young buck.. props to him for at least trying to learn.

All MJ fans want to do is teach the young bucks, not teach in a demeaning condescending way but show them why MJ is considered the GOAT by most. That's what we do for the most part, I'd rather dude ask then another shitty thread about why 'X is better than MJ' that's filled with non-sense.

[Asukal]

He is only the greatest basketball player of all time. That's how good he is. :bowdown:

[Dragonyeuw]

to be fair, he's a young buck.. props to him for at least trying to learn.



Yep, as opposed to the young bucks on here who watch youtube clips, or Wizards Jordan, and act like they're experts compared to those of us who've watched his era as it happened and all the players who've come along since.

[HighFlyer23]

He was a decent player, but at the expense of being a terrible person and teammate. I remember Jordan for being a gambling addict and a guy responsible for his own fathers death. To me, that situation is way bigger than basketball and a wake-up call to the fans that being good at basketball doesn't give you a free pass to be an awful person. We as a society shouldn't glorify Jordan's basketball achievements; but instead we should mourn and remember James Jordan's life.





https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/01/9e/ac/019eac028038f2a0d4235dae2f755a6b.jpg


Rest easy, big fella.


James Jordan, Michael Jordan father, raped his own daughter

[Dro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLAbHud8bQ

[FillJackson]

Jordan was pretty amazing.

His scoring came from an an unrivaled ability to convert drives into baskets. He had amazing touch, and would spin in shots from all angles. Fantastic "English" off the backboard with both the left and right hand.

Not the greatest leaper in NBA history, but he seemed to be able to do more in the air the anyone else. The most productive leaper.

Head and shoulders above his peers.

Gifted athlete who was one of the first NBA players to get a dedicated supertrainer to work his body/core.

He got a lot better at his game over the years.

[JBSptfn]

One of the best three or four players ever, but he was a ball hog who needed favorable officiating at times. He also never won anything without Pippen, Phil Jackson, and a good PF (Grant, Rodman).

Pippen was a great complimentary player to him, Jackson was able to manage his giant ego, and Rodman and Grant provided the defense and rebounding that MJ couldn't.

[Gilles Simon]

James Jordan, Michael Jordan father, raped his own daughter

:biggums:

[Dragonyeuw]

O Rodman and Grant provided the defense and rebounding that MJ couldn't.

Like how MJ provided the GOAT level scoring and perimeter D that they couldn't? It's like the door doesn't swing both ways.

[theaussieguy]

Okay look, I won't Lie, he is a great player, top 15 all time perhaps, but its absolutely critical we remember he played alongside a top 20 player all time in Pippen during a time when the league was largely watered down in an expansive era. They were the Cavs of the day, abso-****ing-loutly stacked. During this era a top 8 college team could beat over 50% of the teams in the league and this is verified by numerous sources. It was a weak weak era.

[sportjames23]

Definitely overrated . Even .. Could be most overrated .

But Goat perimeter player in history for sure .


How is a player who rose to the occasion on a regular basis, exceeded the hype once he started getting hype, sold out arenas from coast to coast and is considered the GOAT by most basketball experts and other legends overrated, let alone most overrated?

Sit the **** down.

[f0und]

look at the list of all the great perimeter players in the past decade and a half. now choose each of these players' single best overall peak year. add together all their legendary performances in the reg season and playoffs.

add this all together for a career and it might be as good as jordan's. thats how good he was.

[f0und]

op, if you've never really seen jordan play, watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42OzpZB0bqA

i watched jordan growing up. seen all his dvds. seen hundreds of highlight videos. but this video kinda makes me feel like im watching jordan for the first time. its just mindblowing what he was able to do on the court.

[KOBE143]

He's as good as Kobe.. Proof? Ask Phil Jackson..

[Hey Yo]

I've never seen MJ play because I was only a kid during the Bulls era so Im not going to claim his better or inferior to certain superstars today. But for those of you who grew up watching MJ, how good was this guy? I'd like to know your opinion. Was he that good like the hype or is he overrated? I've seen that as good a player as Lebron is with those stats he still needs a guy like Wade and Kyrie to slash/close out games during clutch time or a big that can shoot to create spacing. What about MJ, did he need someone to close out games? And how do you compare him to players like Curry/Lebron?
He could never beat super teams like LeBron just did in his 6th straight Finals appearance

Jordan had to wait till the players who reg. clownstommped him in the playoffs got old before MJ started to actually get to the 2nd round and start winning titles.