Why are advanced stats unfriendly towards Kobe?

[ISHGoat]

By almost all advanced metrics, PER; WS48; BPM; VORP; etc., Kobe consistently ranks poorly for an "all time great"?

Does anyone have any insight as to why?

At the same time, as an example, advanced stats show these players to be dominant: Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Barkley, Nowitzki, Kareem, Magic, etc.

[konex]

Few reasons:

- He was both the primary scorer and playmaker on most teams he played on
- He never stopped attacking even when his shot wasn't falling
- He never really played on a stacked team
- He never played with a great PG

All that hurts efficiency numbers which weigh heavily in advanced stats. Kobe did more over his career with less help than any superstar IMO.

What HOFs did he play with while they were still allstars? Shaq and Pau. That's it...

[Young X]

Olajuwon doesn't look that great with advanced stats either.

Because neither of them were super efficient.

Advanced stats are something you have to take with a grain of salt. Consider them, but realize they don't tell the whole story.

You should use them more for teams instead of individual players.

[HurricaneKid]

By almost all advanced metrics, PER; WS48; BPM; VORP; etc., Kobe consistently ranks poorly for an "all time great"?

Does anyone have any insight as to why?

At the same time, as an example, advanced stats show these players to be dominant: Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Barkley, Nowitzki, Kareem, Magic, etc.

Because advanced stats measure impact and efficiency. And Kobe doesn't have an enormous impact on the game and isn't especially efficient.

[HurricaneKid]

Olajuwon doesn't look that great with advanced stats either.

Because neither of them were super efficient.

Advanced stats are something you have to take with a grain of salt. Consider them, but realize they don't tell the whole story.

You should use them more for teams instead of individual players.

Dream looked incredible using advanced stats.

A lot of the ones you are looking for don't exist back then because there are no official records re: substitutions, etc no RAPM figures aren't possible.

Only a fool would ignore advanced stats. Which happens to coincide with much of Kobe's fan base.

[warriorfan]

Kobe took lots of last second shots in the clock and gameclock, his teammates would always defer to him and get him the ball for those tough bail out shots

Lots of players today don't even take those shots and hold the ball to preserve their FG percentage and boost their advanced stats

Not Kobe, he cared more about winning than advanced stats

He also would get assists soaked up through the triangle offense which lowered his advanced stats

Kobe also played a large part of his career against rules that were tough against perimeter scorers

Regardless, you should never use solely advanced stats in judging a player

You need to use a combination of many factors, advanced stats are just one of the many tools to help you

[feyki]

https://youtu.be/WSdhzK-ud3U

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe took lots of last second shots in the clock and gameclock, his teammates would always defer to him and get him the ball for those tough bail out shots

Lots of players today don't even take those shots and hold the ball to preserve their FG percentage and boost their advanced stats

Not Kobe, he cared more about winning than advanced stats

He also would get assists soaked up through the triangle offense which lowered his advanced stats

Kobe also played a large part of his career against rules that were tough against perimeter scorers

Regardless, you should never use solely advanced stats in judging a player

You need to use a combination of many factors, advanced stats are just one of the many tools to help you


Like so many of your other posts, everything you have said here is just wrong.

[Bankaii]

Few reasons:

- He was both the primary scorer and playmaker on most teams he played on
- He never stopped attacking even when his shot wasn't falling
- He never really played on a stacked team
- He never played with a great PG

All that hurts efficiency numbers which weigh heavily in advanced stats. Kobe did more over his career with less help than any superstar IMO.

What HOFs did he play with while they were still allstars? Shaq and Pau. That's it...
All of those reasons are true for Lebron/Wade (Lebron has had Kyrie for 2 seasons) and they both still have great advanced stats.
I know for certain Lebron is superior and Wade isn't too far behind if not equal.

And lol at never playing on a stacked team. Shaq alone should've boosted his efficiency. Add that to 2004, 2013, and his 2008-10 Lakers had one of the best if not the best front court in the league.

[NBAGOAT]

Dream looked incredible using advanced stats.

A lot of the ones you are looking for don't exist back then because there are no official records re: substitutions, etc no RAPM figures aren't possible.

Only a fool would ignore advanced stats. Which happens to coincide with much of Kobe's fan base.

Not really at least based on box score metrics. BPM he looks great, high of 8.4 and looks incredible on defense. PER is fine but only one year above 27 isn't that great compared to other all time greats. WS really makes him not look really elite however and the biggest efficiency stat of them all. He has 3 years above .200ws/48 and 2 years with more than 14ws, that's around Kobe level and below quite a few guys below him on an all time list.

[TomCat]

Advance stats fail the Eye Test

[aj1987]

Kobe took lots of last second shots in the clock and gameclock, his teammates would always defer to him and get him the ball for those tough bail out shots

Lots of players today don't even take those shots and hold the ball to preserve their FG percentage and boost their advanced stats

Not Kobe, he cared more about winning than advanced stats

He also would get assists soaked up through the triangle offense which lowered his advanced stats

Kobe also played a large part of his career against rules that were tough against perimeter scorers

Regardless, you should never use solely advanced stats in judging a player

You need to use a combination of many factors, advanced stats are just one of the many tools to help you
https://s31.postimg.org/isggod63v/r_JLV6_OX.png

[Smoke117]

Because he was never that good. Stats never tell the whole story, but when every advanced stat says you aren't that good...it's because you aren't. Look at all the players in the top 10...are advanced stats unfriendly to them? Nope.

[kentatm]

By almost all advanced metrics, PER; WS48; BPM; VORP; etc., Kobe consistently ranks poorly for an "all time great"?

Does anyone have any insight as to why?

At the same time, as an example, advanced stats show these players to be dominant: Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Barkley, Nowitzki, Kareem, Magic, etc.


advanced stats dont like ball hogging chuckers


Few reasons:

- He was both the primary scorer and playmaker on most teams he played on
- He never stopped attacking even when his shot wasn't falling
- He never really played on a stacked team
- He never played with a great PG

All that hurts efficiency numbers which weigh heavily in advanced stats. Kobe did more over his career with less help than any superstar IMO.

What HOFs did he play with while they were still allstars? Shaq and Pau. That's it...

:roll:

[AirFederer]

Because he was never that good. Stats never tell the whole story, but when every advanced stat says you aren't that good...it's because you aren't. Look at all the players in the top 10...are advanced stats unfriendly to them? Nope.
This.
He had the ego, swag, sponsor deals, media coverage and highlights for a top 3 player, but he was never really that good. Still top 15, which is great.

:cheers:

[Atlantis]

Because he was such a transcendent player that there are no statistics that can actually measure his true impact and greatness. A lot of great physicists would actually score higher on IQ tests than Albert Einstein. Einstein didn't get the best grades in school. But it doesn't mean that they are greater scientists than he was. True genius cannot be accurately measured by numbers. There is something qualitatively different that sets them apart. Just as Einstein is the true standard of greatness in science (and rightly so), Kobe is on a similar footing. He is on a level apart.

The average person might not exactly understand what greatness and transcendence is in various human endeavors, but they are very good at noticing it when they see it. Average people believe that Einstein is the greatest scientist of the modern age. And they recognize him for it. And they are pretty much right. The average basketball fan believes that Kobe is the greatest player of his generation, and second only to Jordan, as the farewell tour showed the world. And guess what? They're goddamn right. Just like the average fan barely noticed when Duncan, Hakeem, etc. retired, the average person doesn't really know most of the scientists in the world who were actually great scientists. That's because unlike Einstein and Kobe they aren't transcendent geniuses in their field.

Kobe > all.

[AintNoSunshine]

Because he's unfriendly to advanced stats by playing an unefficient and dumb selfish brand of basketball.

[PsychoBe]

Because he's unfriendly to advanced stats by playing an unefficient and dumb selfish brand of basketball.

yet he has more rings than bran? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

yet he has more rings than bran? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Less MVP's & Finals MVP's though

[Hey Yo]

yet he has more rings than bran? :roll: :roll: :roll:
James 3 first option/captain rings

Kobe 2

[I<3NBA]

yet he has more rings than bran? :roll: :roll: :roll:
because he got those rings being the main man right?

Lebron won 3 as the man
Kobe won 2 as the man

that's how you count it.

[AintNoSunshine]

yet he has more rings than bran? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Derek Fisher rode Shaq to the same 3 rings. So your point?

We are talking about peak Shaq here. Even when Kobe average something like 15 ppg on 40% they still won the title comfortably so you meant to tell me it's an achievement for Kobe?

[SouBeachTalents]

PER/WS/BPM/VORP rankings all time

Regular season
Russell: 98/17/NA/NA
Wilt: 5/2/NA/NA
Kareem: 12/1/10/7
Bird: 17/23/7/9
Magic: 14/20/6/11
Jordan: 1/4/2/2
Hakeem: 16/18/22/12
Shaq: 3/11/20/14
Kobe: 22/15/33/15
Duncan: 13/6/11/6
LeBron: 2/8/1/1

Postseason
Russell: 61/9/NA/NA
Wilt: 18/6/NA/NA
Kareem: 16/4/21/9
Bird: 27/11/7/6
Magic: 17/5/4/4
Jordan: 1/2/2/2
Hakeem: 5/15/6/10
Shaq: 4/7/23/7
Kobe: 22/8/40/8
Duncan: 7/3/18/3
LeBron: 3/1/1/1

[eliteballer]

PER/WS/BPM/VORP rankings all time

Regular season
Russell: 98/17/NA/NA
Wilt: 5/2/NA/NA
Kareem: 12/1/10/7
Bird: 17/23/7/9
Magic: 14/20/6/11
Jordan: 1/4/2/2
Hakeem: 16/18/22/12
Shaq: 3/11/20/14
Kobe: 22/15/33/15
Duncan: 13/6/11/6
LeBron: 2/8/1/1

Postseason
Russell: 61/9/NA/NA
Wilt: 18/6/NA/NA
Kareem: 16/4/21/9
Bird: 27/11/7/6
Magic: 17/5/4/4
Jordan: 1/2/2/2
Hakeem: 5/15/6/10
Shaq: 4/7/23/7
Kobe: 22/8/40/8
Duncan: 7/3/18/3
LeBron: 3/1/1/1

Russell's PER rankings:roll:

The worst "stat" ever.

[tpols]

what i gather from these stats was that Kobe increased his advanced stats signifigantly in the playoffs.. which is a testament to his defense going up a lot from the regular season .. and game just overall in general. Top 10 all time playoffs win shares and value over replacement basically means

A) from a stats perspective, Kobe is top 10 all time in contributing stats to wins in the playoffs

and

B) all the arguments that he could've been replaced by the common lower level all stars during the first 3peat are bullshit


but I dont **** with advanced stats. it's eye test all day for me.. and thats infallible.

[Round Mound]

Cause he wasnt that dominant or efficient :confusedshrug: . He is a better version of Allen Iverson.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because he's a fringe top 10 player to begin with. After LeBron left him in the dust, Bean now stands @ the bottom end of the top 10 with guys like Hakeem/Big O - players you could argue were greater and had better peaks (would probably take Kobe > Oscar though).

[Hoopz2332]

http://cdn.niketalk.com/e/e0/e08938c0_latest.jpeg

[Jacks3]

Advanced stats say Kobe was one of the very best players in history and a undisputed 1st-Ballot HOF...they actually love him. The idea that Bryant doesn't do well in advanced stats is just another dumbass myth created by Bryant detractors.

1996-2013(46, 774 min):
26/5/5/1.5/0.5/56% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.5 PER/36.6 MPG over 17 seasons/46,774 min (1996-2013)
)

Career Regular Season Advanced Stats as starter (1998-2013/15 seasons/42,231 min) and where they would rank all-time (as of June 2015):
27.4/6/5/1.6/0.5/56% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.9 PER/38.8 MPG over 15 seasons/42, 231 min as a starter (1998-2013)
PER:
23.9 PER (tied #15 all-time, #6 active, eleven different seasons in top ten, seven different seasons in top five)
28.2 peak PER (tied #1 in the league, )
Usage Rate (#3 all-time, #2 active, led league three times, holds NBA record for highest single-season usage rate ever)
OWS (#12 all-time, #3 active)
WS (#15 all-time, #5 active)
WS/48 (.188, tied #25 all-time, #7 active)
WS Hall-Rating (#17 all-time)
WAR (#8 all-time, eight different seasons in top 6, five seasons in top 3)
WAR48 (#17 all-time)
OBPM ( 5.0, #6 all-time, #3 active)
BPM---only available since 1974 (4.6, tied #20 all-time, #8 active)
VORP--only available since 1974 (#15 all-time, #4 active)
OASPM--only available since 1974 (#4 all-time, #3 active)
ASPM --only available since 1974(#8 all-time, #4 active)
OASM/VORP Hall Rank (#5 all-time, #2 active)
AST Pct (24.9%, top 100 all-time (tied with Jordan/Manu), #20 active overall, #4 active among all non-points, #6 all-time among non-points), STL% (#20 active), TOV Pct (11.4%, top 100 all-time, top 25 active, 4th lowest career TOV rate among all 30%+ USG players all-time)

Career Playoffs Advanced Stats as starter (1998-2013/15 seasons/13 playoff runs/8288 min/200 games (8th most all-time) and where they would rank all-time:
27.4/5.4/5.1/1.6/0.7/54% TS/110 ORTG/31% USG/22.8 PER/41.4 MPG
22.8 PER (#16 all-time, #7 active, nine playoffs in top ten, six playoff runs in the top five)
USG Rate (#7 all-time, #4 active)
OWS (#6 all-time, #2 active)
WS (#8 all-time, #3 active)
WS48 ( top 40 all-time, #11 active)
OBPM (#12 all-time, #4 active)
BPM (#32 all-time, #13 active)
VORP (#8 all-time, #3 active)
TOV Pct (top 70 all-time, #24 active)


10 Year RS Prime: 28.5/5.8/5.2/1.7/0.5/56% TS/113 ORTG/33% USG/24.7 PER/.197 WS48/123.1 WS/5.0 BPM/52.3 VORP/39.5 MPG/

10 Year PS Prime: 28.8/5.7/5.4/1.5/0.6/55% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.5 PER/0.178 WS/23.3 WS/5.3 BPM/11.6 VORP/42.5 MPG/

His +/- numbers are also absolutely fantastic.

SWAgR Wins (minute-adjusted RAPM, first available in 2008): #1 in 2008, #2 in 2009, #4 in 2010, #17 in 2011,
SWAg Wins (minute-adjusted APM): #8 in 04, #10 in 06, #4 in 07,#3 in 08, #3 in 09, #3 in 2010, #15 2011,
OAPM: #3 in 04, #5 in 05, #1 in 06, #2 in 07, #3 in 08, #4 in 09, #4 in 2010, #8 in 2011,
2002-2011 10 Year RAPM
#5 overall and the two guys ahead aren

[jstern]

By almost all advanced metrics, PER; WS48; BPM; VORP; etc., Kobe consistently ranks poorly for an "all time great"?

Does anyone have any insight as to why?

At the same time, as an example, advanced stats show these players to be dominant: Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Barkley, Nowitzki, Kareem, Magic, etc.

I think it's because as a star player Kobe won 5 rings due to having dominant teams and a Shaq. As well as pretty Jordan like looking moves. As such he attracted a lot of young people who were new to basketball, and he became an absolute god to them. So having limited knowledge they put him at the level of lets say a Lebron and other all time greats, even though he's below them.

[G-train]

What HOFs did he play with while they were still allstars? Shaq and Pau. That's it...

That's it lol

Just one of the greatest players ever

[ISHGoat]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Advanced stats say Kobe was one of the very best players in history and a undisputed 1st-Ballot HOF...they actually love him. The idea that Bryant doesn't do well in advanced stats is just another dumbass myth created by Bryant detractors.

1996-2013(46, 774 min):
26/5/5/1.5/0.5/56% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.5 PER/36.6 MPG over 17 seasons/46,774 min (1996-2013)
)

Career Regular Season Advanced Stats as starter (1998-2013/15 seasons/42,231 min) and where they would rank all-time (as of June 2015):
27.4/6/5/1.6/0.5/56% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.9 PER/38.8 MPG over 15 seasons/42, 231 min as a starter (1998-2013)
PER:
23.9 PER (tied #15 all-time, #6 active, eleven different seasons in top ten, seven different seasons in top five)
28.2 peak PER (tied #1 in the league, )
Usage Rate (#3 all-time, #2 active, led league three times, holds NBA record for highest single-season usage rate ever)
OWS (#12 all-time, #3 active)
WS (#15 all-time, #5 active)
WS/48 (.188, tied #25 all-time, #7 active)
WS Hall-Rating (#17 all-time)
WAR (#8 all-time, eight different seasons in top 6, five seasons in top 3)
WAR48 (#17 all-time)
OBPM ( 5.0, #6 all-time, #3 active)
BPM---only available since 1974 (4.6, tied #20 all-time, #8 active)
VORP--only available since 1974 (#15 all-time, #4 active)
OASPM--only available since 1974 (#4 all-time, #3 active)
ASPM --only available since 1974(#8 all-time, #4 active)
OASM/VORP Hall Rank (#5 all-time, #2 active)
AST Pct (24.9%, top 100 all-time (tied with Jordan/Manu), #20 active overall, #4 active among all non-points, #6 all-time among non-points), STL% (#20 active), TOV Pct (11.4%, top 100 all-time, top 25 active, 4th lowest career TOV rate among all 30%+ USG players all-time)

Career Playoffs Advanced Stats as starter (1998-2013/15 seasons/13 playoff runs/8288 min/200 games (8th most all-time) and where they would rank all-time:
27.4/5.4/5.1/1.6/0.7/54% TS/110 ORTG/31% USG/22.8 PER/41.4 MPG
22.8 PER (#16 all-time, #7 active, nine playoffs in top ten, six playoff runs in the top five)
USG Rate (#7 all-time, #4 active)
OWS (#6 all-time, #2 active)
WS (#8 all-time, #3 active)
WS48 ( top 40 all-time, #11 active)
OBPM (#12 all-time, #4 active)
BPM (#32 all-time, #13 active)
VORP (#8 all-time, #3 active)
TOV Pct (top 70 all-time, #24 active)


10 Year RS Prime: 28.5/5.8/5.2/1.7/0.5/56% TS/113 ORTG/33% USG/24.7 PER/.197 WS48/123.1 WS/5.0 BPM/52.3 VORP/39.5 MPG/

10 Year PS Prime: 28.8/5.7/5.4/1.5/0.6/55% TS/112 ORTG/32% USG/23.5 PER/0.178 WS/23.3 WS/5.3 BPM/11.6 VORP/42.5 MPG/

His +/- numbers are also absolutely fantastic.

SWAgR Wins (minute-adjusted RAPM, first available in 2008): #1 in 2008, #2 in 2009, #4 in 2010, #17 in 2011,
SWAg Wins (minute-adjusted APM): #8 in 04, #10 in 06, #4 in 07,#3 in 08, #3 in 09, #3 in 2010, #15 2011,
OAPM: #3 in 04, #5 in 05, #1 in 06, #2 in 07, #3 in 08, #4 in 09, #4 in 2010, #8 in 2011,
2002-2011 10 Year RAPM
#5 overall and the two guys ahead aren

[Cold soul]

This.
He had the ego, swag, sponsor deals, media coverage and highlights for a top 3 player, but he was never really that good. Still top 15, which is great.

:cheers:

Kobe is top 10 deal with it.

[Hoopz2332]

http://i.imgur.com/1erv3yB.gif

[Hoopz2332]

:lol

[Mr Feeny]

Because he's not a top tier player.

That's why he's considered 12th all time at best :banana:

[knicksman]

Reminder: nerds are losers so anyone who loves lebron coz of stats is a statnerd

[Spurs m8]

Over hyped, glorified chucker.

[Mr Feeny]

Over hyped, glorified chucker.

Goodness!:lol

[Mr Feeny]

:applause:

:D

[Dray n Klay]

in the end, only cowards respect Kobe

[Round Mound]

I have in my top 20. Higher than that is nonsense. He wasnt as dominant and efficient player as others where.

[SouBeachTalents]

I have in my top 20. Higher than that is nonsense. He wasnt as dominant and efficient player as others where.

Which of these players would you rank ahead of Kobe?

Oscar
West
Moses
K. Malone
Barkley
Baylor
KG
Dirk

[Dray n Klay]

Which of these players would you rank ahead of Kobe?

Oscar
West
Moses
K. Malone
Barkley
Baylor
KG
Dirk

All of them

[Smoke117]

I have in my top 20. Higher than that is nonsense. He wasnt as dominant and efficient player as others where.

The problem with Kobe is he just plain doesn't have the impact of the other top 20 greats. Hell he might not even be top 30 as far as impact in general (he's obviously going to be ranked higher all time than someone like Robinson because of accolades...but there is nobody but a Kobe stan would say his impact for his team was bigger than David Robinsons in the early to mid 90s). My point? There's other players like Robinson whose careers were shortened or came in late that were better...but don't have the longevity or team success. Kobe's greatness is all about the rings or inflated accolades. (all def team nods) Lebron haters/Kobe stans say that we all just look at stats...Kobe never passed the eye test either.

[Round Mound]

Which of these players would you rank ahead of Kobe?

Oscar
West
Moses
K. Malone
Barkley
Baylor
KG
Dirk

Oscar
Baylor
Moses
Barkley
K.Malone


Dirk, KG and West are close to Kobe though

[Round Mound]

The problem with Kobe is he just plain doesn't have the impact of the other top 20 greats. Hell he might not even be top 30 as far as impact in general (he's obviously going to be ranked higher all time than someone like Robinson because of accolades...but there is nobody but a Kobe stan would say his impact for his team was bigger than David Robinsons in the early to mid 90s). My point? There's other players like Robinson whose careers were shortened or came in late that were better...but don't have the longevity or team success. Kobe's greatness is all about the rings or inflated accolades. (all def team nods) Lebron haters/Kobe stans say that we all just look at stats...Kobe never passed the eye test either.

Kobe is n the top 20-25 ish around there. Pretty good but in terms of dominance and efficiency he is not close to the top 1-19. David Robinson from 89 to 96 prior to injuries was better and more dominant than Kobe.