It's time to have an HONEST discussion of Kobe vs Pippen

[Akrazotile]

Now that both players' careers are in the books, I think we need to address this comparison honestly and objectively.

Let's do a logic experiment:

The Bulls threepeated with Phil Jackson (coach), MJ (alpha) and Pippen.

The Lakers threepeated with Phil Jackson (coach), Shaq (alpha) and Kobe.


So, it's obvious you do not NEED a second volume scorer to win a title. The Bulls didn't have one. They had good scorers, but no other VOLUME scorer besides MJ.

So we can deduce that Kobe's persistent attempts to rack up huge ppg while playing with Shaq were NOT an important factor in the Lakers threepeating. Basically they would have been just fine with Shaq being dominant and the rest of the Lakers moving the ball around, defending, and rebounding. Just like the Bulls.

However, it's pretty clear that Pippen was better at all these supporting elements than Kobe was. And again, these are the important things. Moreover, Pippen won SIX sidekick rings, whilst Kobe achieved only five.


Ultimately, Pippen edges out Kobe. It's not a case of Pippen >>>>> Kobe. But objectively, using logic, it has to be agreed that Pippen > Kobe.


Thank you for your time.

[TonyMontana]

Scottie was a better complement to MJ than Kobe would have been.

Kobe was a better complement to Shaq than Pippen would have been.

This comparison is kind of like would you rather have Kawhi Leonard(Pippen) or Russell Westbrook(Kobe)

I personally like sidekick Kobe more than any other version of Kobe because he was an elite man defender in those days.

Although Pippen was almost able to get to the Finals WITHOUT Jordan after his first retirement.

Not sure who is better, but just figured I'd post some facts.

[LilEddyCurry]

Kobe stan logic: 6>5

But that does not apply in this case cause Kobe has less rings.

[iamgine]

So, it's obvious you do not NEED a second volume scorer to win a title. The Bulls didn't have one. They had good scorers, but no other VOLUME scorer besides MJ.

You do not need a volume scorer at all. When MJ was replaced by scrub Pete Myers, the Bulls were equal with the great Knicks. Imagine if Pete Myers were replaced by another Scottie Pippen. Guaranteed title. Therefore MJ, Shaq and Kobe were totally unnecessary.

[Mr Feeny]

Pippen is 6/6.
Call me when Kobrick reaches Pippen. Oh wait, did he retire and now has no chance to tie Pippen? :lol
OK then!:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

What Shaq needed to win- a high scoring 2-guard/playmaker who can come through in the 4th quarter, especially for free throws

What Kobe needed to win- Either a singularly dominant bigman or a frontcourt bigger than his competition combined with a very good scoring bigman

What MJ needed to win- a guy who could provide relief scoring and defend with him on the perimeter, and someone to do the dirty interior work

[SwayDizzle]

what is this?

[Dragonyeuw]

what is this?
Welcome to ISH. Check your brain at the door, logic and sense not allowed.

[I<3NBA]

Pippen (without MJ) took his team to the conference finals twice.

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol took his team where?

[Dragonyeuw]

Pippen (without MJ) took his team to the conference finals twice.



1. The 94 Bulls didn't make the conference finals. They beat an injured Cavs team in the 1st round and lost to the Knicks in the 2nd round

2. The 2000 Blazers were an ensemble cast with Rasheed Wallace as their best player. Pippen provided veteran leadership and poise, but he was a glorified role player at this point in his career. He didn't 'take' that team anywhere.

[NumberSix]

6/6 > 5/7

[I<3NBA]

1. The 94 Bulls didn't make the conference finals. They beat an injured Cavs team in the 1st round and lost to the Knicks in the 2nd round

2. The 2000 Blazers were an ensemble cast with Rasheed Wallace as their best player. Pippen provided veteran leadership and poise, but he was a glorified role player at this point in his career. He didn't 'take' that team anywhere.
1. look, to you the Knicks might have won. but to me it was a rig job. so Pippen basically took them to the ECF.

2. Pippen LED that team.

[SwayDizzle]

pippen was an amazing talent but he is not top ten all time. kobe is...

[Dragonyeuw]

1. look, to you the Knicks might have won. but to me it was a rig job. so Pippen basically took them to the ECF.

2. Pippen LED that team.

1. No, it's not the Knicks might have won. They DID win. The reality is, if Jordan was on that squad, the series wouldn't have been decided on a shit call. MJ would have closed the deal in 5-6 games. What happened to the Bulls in 94 is the difference between having MJ, and not having him. Spare me the part about team records, because after a 73 win team choked away the championship in epic fashion, I don't ever want to hear 'but but they won 2 less games without MJ' ever again. Regular season record has been proven to not be the end all, be all.

2. Rasheed Wallace was the best player on that team. Pippen provided veteran leadership. And if you want to credit him for 'leading that team', then he also gets the blame for leading the 4th quarter chokejob and getting crossed over by pre-prime Kobe leading to the pivotal Shaq alley-oop to seal the deal.

[bond10]

Scottie was a better complement to MJ than Kobe would have been.

Kobe was a better complement to Shaq than Pippen would have been.

This comparison is kind of like would you rather have Kawhi Leonard(Pippen) or Russell Westbrook(Kobe)

I personally like sidekick Kobe more than any other version of Kobe because he was an elite man defender in those days.

Although Pippen was almost able to get to the Finals WITHOUT Jordan after his first retirement.

Not sure who is better, but just figured I'd post some facts.

94 Bulls were as close to the finals as the 16 Heat were...

[SecondTake]

Pippen (without MJ) took his team to the conference finals twice.

Kobe without Shaq/Gasol took his team where?

Lol pretending like that garbage man gasol "carried" Kobe anywhere - Kobe carried Gasol. What was Gasol doing after Kobe? Pippen without MJ had better teammates than a Gasol

[imdaman99]

1. look, to you the Knicks might have won. but to me it was a rig job. so Pippen basically took them to the ECF.

2. Pippen LED that team.
How much leading did Pippen do when he benched himself at the end of a playoff game? :biggums:

[Mr Feeny]

Lol pretending like that garbage man gasol "carried" Kobe anywhere - Kobe carried Gasol. What was Gasol doing after Kobe? Pippen without MJ had better teammates than a GasolGasol is the difference between the 2009 and 2010 titles and Kobe being in the lottery or being eliminated in the first round as had happened the 3 previous seasons before Gasol came aboard :lebronamazed:

[3ball]

So, it's obvious you do not NEED a second volume scorer to win a title.



The problem with your theory is that Jordan scored FAR more than Shaq




................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



So Shaq DID need Kobe's scoring, since he didn't score nearly as much as Jordan - look at those numbers - it's not even close, especially in the 4th quarters of playoffs and Finals

[Sarcastic]

Typed all that out just to say Kobe was always a sidekick :lol

[Dragonyeuw]

Post prime MJ was scoring 50% of the Bulls points in the 4th quarter during the finals. :applause:

[NumberSix]

6 rings > 5 rings.

[nba_55]

6/6 > 5/7
this.

[SecondTake]

Gasol is the difference between the 2009 and 2010 titles and Kobe being in the lottery or being eliminated in the first round as had happened the 3 previous seasons before Gasol came aboard :lebronamazed:

Yeah like Pippen was the difference for Jordan. Gasol was a decent sidekick, nothing more.

[bizil]

Kobe was one of those guys who was LITERALLY the total package across the board. Pip was DAMN CLOSE, but was lacking the great scoring ability. If Pippen had that great scoring ability (an ability other pass first players like Bron, Magic, Isiah, Big O exhibited), he would arguably be a top 10-15 GOAT of all time. Instead of being a Batman-Batman combo, him and MJ was a Batman-Robin combo. Once Kobe came of age, he and Shaq were two alpha dogs under one roof.

With six rings, two gold medals, redefining the SF position, and being arguably the greatest defender ever, Pip's scoring ability WAS THE ONLY THING to stop him from being top 10 GOAT caliber. So for me, u CANT EVEN compare Pippen to Kobe. Mamba is on a totally different level.

[TheReal Kendall]

Idk about all time lists but I'd rather have pippen on my squad.

6 is greater than 5 last I checked.

[nba_55]

Idk about all time lists but I'd rather have pippen on my squad.

6 is greater than 5 last I checked.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8cs0nNpbp1rdnyzjo1_r2_1280.gif

[Akrazotile]

The problem with your theory is that Jordan scored FAR more than Shaq




................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)



So Shaq DID need Kobe's scoring, since he didn't score nearly as much as Jordan - look at those numbers - it's not even close, especially in the 4th quarters of playoffs and Finals


Except what you overlook is that Shaq shot a better percentage than Jordan. So if you remove Kobe and give Shaq the kind of attempts MJ got, he puts up MJ point totals. And they still win. What then matters is the supporting player intangibles.

Therefore Pippen > Kobe


Plus, if we are to believe our kindergarten mathematics teachers, 6 > 5 and therefore Pippen > Kobe.


Thank you.

[riseagainst]

I love ISH!

Love you fam!

[branslowski]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8cs0nNpbp1rdnyzjo1_r2_1280.gif

No context...If context wasn't used ud see smart ppl posting Horry>>LeBron...smh.

Stopped reading after "Kobe 5 sidekick rings"....This forum has the dumbest ppl on earth.

[Mr Feeny]

No context...If context wasn't used ud see smart ppl posting Horry>>LeBron...smh.

Stopped reading after "Kobe 5 sidekick rings"....This forum has the dumbest ppl on earth.

:cry:

[3ball]

Except what you overlook is that Shaq shot a better percentage than Jordan.

So if you remove Kobe and give Shaq the kind of attempts MJ got, he puts up MJ point totals.


You're factually incorrect - Jordan shot much higher FT%, so his true shooting was higher than Shaq's during their respective primes and for their playoff careers.

Furthermore, Jordan had less turnovers - lower turnovers and higher true shooting equals higher per POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), which is the most important of all.. Turnovers and shooting efficiency fall under the umbrella of per possession efficiency.

Btw, even without Kobe, Shaq never took as many shots as Jordan because it's harder to get a center the ball that many times, and he simply couldn't get off that many shots EFFICIENTLY like Mike.. Only Jordan could get off that many shots efficiently (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387721).
.