We all agree that both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era, right?

[3ball]

.
Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so both guys played against many of the same players and in the modern era... Otoh, Bill Russell never played against anyone Jordan faced, so Russell didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.

Specifically, 35-year old Jordan won all the awards in 1998 over the best players Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett - who were all-stars in 98'), while also facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too).. Jordan's clean sweep of the awards in 1998 also beat out Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and more.. These guys are obviously equal or better than today's players, which proves that Jordan played in the modern era.

Since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).
.

[theaussieguy]

the shine that once radiated outward from Jordan, quickly declined as the world demanded something more. A ruthless, borderline-psychopathic sports star, would soon be an archaic and unwanted form of heroism sort by the wider public, and a new era ushered in stars of both extraordinary talent, but more importantly, humanity. Little did we know that the momentum of the human rights movement would fundamentally change Western culture at its core and seep into the most competitive arena of all, professional sports. This change is personified in no better form by no other than Lebron James.

James, now 68, Father of three and jokingly a full time Grandfather, remarks from his Los Angeles home "coming into the league, you know, you could already see the changes.... guys from other teams would you know, talk, joke around before the game. Sometimes you would even go out to dinner with the other team".

someone keep going with this for me pls, im too lazy

[warriorfan]

They both played in the modern era, however LeBron was the one who colluded

To put LeBron's Collusion into perspective with Jordan

LeBron left his home team to join the 2nd and 4th leaders in PER (D.Wade and Chris Bosh)

What LeBron did was like if MJ left his hometown team to join Scottie Pippen AND Shaquile Oneal! (The 4th and 2nd leaders in PER of the 1994 season)

https://s31.postimg.org/enaz1o9wr/94per.png

https://s31.postimg.org/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan did not play in the facebook era, so no.

[3ball]

Jordan did not play in the facebook era, so no.


Best players Jordan faced:


1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq


Best players Lebron faced:


1. Shaq*
2. Duncan*
3. Kobe*
4. Garnett*


*Jordan won every major award over these players in 1998 (when each guy was an all-star)


As you can see, Jordan dominated the best players Lebron ever faced, while facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced... :confusedshrug:

[bigkingsfan]

MJ era
https://shaide.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/80s-brick-cell-phone.jpg

Lebron
http://www.shermanreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LeBron-James-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-II-575x366.jpg

[3ball]

MJ era
https://shaide.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/80s-brick-cell-phone.jpg

Lebron
http://www.shermanreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LeBron-James-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-II-575x366.jpg


Best players Jordan faced:


1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq


Best players Lebron faced:


1. Shaq*
2. Duncan*
3. Kobe*
4. Garnett*


*Jordan won every major award over these players in 1998 (when each guy was an all-star)


As you can see, Jordan dominated the best players Lebron ever faced, while facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced... :confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

the shine that once radiated outward from Jordan, quickly declined as the world demanded something more. A ruthless, borderline-psychopathic sports star, would soon be an archaic and unwanted form of heroism sort by the wider public, and a new era ushered in stars of both extraordinary talent, but more importantly, humanity. Little did we know that the momentum of the human rights movement would fundamentally change Western culture at its core and seep into the most competitive arena of all, professional sports. This change is personified in no better form by no other than Lebron James.

James, now 68, Father of three and jokingly a full time Grandfather, remarks from his Los Angeles home "coming into the league, you know, you could already see the changes.... guys from other teams would you know, talk, joke around before the game. Sometimes you would even go out to dinner with the other team".

someone keep going with this for me pls, im too lazy

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-f0qfABiNJEY/TY0G-DW3C-I/AAAAAAAACHo/cxXTWF_GbTc/s1600/LeBron.gif

[Hey Yo]

LeBron at age 31:
3 rings 4MVP's and 3FMVP's

MJ at age 31:
only played the last 17 games of the season (he cameback after quitting the year before while under contract) and tried to win a ring the cheapest way possible....sneak in the backdoor ..aka..join the marathon in the last mile and act like you started from the beginning.
3 rings 3MVP's and 3FMVP's

[3ball]

LeBron at age 31:
3 rings 4MVP's and 3FMVP's


MJ at age 31:
3 rings 3MVP's and 3FMVP's


Stats Thru 31 Years Old:



JORDAN. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER.. 0.258 ws/48
LEBRON. PLAYOFFS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER.. 0.238 ws/48


JORDAN FINALS:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
LEBRON FINALS:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan averages 7 more ppg in the playoffs and 9 more in the Finals on far better efficiency, while averaging equal or greater assists.. It's not even close - take this L boss.
.

[TheReal Kendall]

Modern Era is the 2000s.

So why you not using the wizard's Jordan?

[3ball]

Modern Era is the 2000s.


Based on what - your arbitrary opinion?

Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league and both guys played against many of the same players - this means that both guys played in modern era.

Otoh, Jordan DIDN'T play against anyone Bill Russell played against, so Russell didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.





So why you not using the wizard's Jordan?


Because I don't need to.

In 1998, the 35-year old Jordan won MVP, all-star MVP, FMVP, scoring title and championship over the 4 best players that Lebron ever played against - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett (each guy was all-star in 98') - and also Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more.

So it's clear that BOTH guys played in the modern era - accordingly, their ring count and fmvp count can be compared directly, which means Lebron is only halfway to achieving Jordan's team and individual accomplishments in the playoffs (Lebron has half the rings and fmvp's).

[jstern]

Modern Era is the 2000s.

So why you not using the wizard's Jordan?

But wasn't the early 2000s much weaker, particularly in the east than a couple of years earlier?

[TheReal Kendall]

So you basically saying your opinion is the only one that matters?

The 90s isn't apart of the modern Era.

@jstern what's your point?

[Hey Yo]

Based on what - your arbitrary opinion?

Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league and both guys played against many of the same players - this means that both guys played in modern era.

Otoh, Jordan DIDN'T play against anyone Bill Russell played against, so Russell didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.



Because I don't need to.

In 1998, the 35-year old Jordan won MVP, all-star MVP, FMVP, scoring title and championship over the 4 best players that Lebron ever played against - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett (each guy was all-star in 98') - and also Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, and more.

So it's clear that BOTH guys played in the modern era - accordingly, their ring count and fmvp count can be compared directly, which means Lebron is only halfway to achieving Jordan's team and individual accomplishments in the playoffs (Lebron has half the rings and fmvp's).
All the guys you named never took almost 2yrs off to rest and get fresh legs like MJ did while under contract, in his prime.



LeBron also won't take 2yrs off either.

MJ may have 6 rings but he'll always be remembered for resting for nearly 2 seasons then coming back to win 3 more with a super team.

[bigkingsfan]

Modern Era is the 2000s.

So why you not using the wizard's Jordan?
Jordan saw the modern era and says, fk, I'm retiring for good this time.

[TheReal Kendall]

Lol @ mj having a super team.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron won every award over shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe as well.

[3ball]

Lebron won every award over shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe as well.


Lebron never won MVP, all-star MVP, Finals MVP, championship and scoring title over all of them like Jordan did in 1998 as a 35-year old man.

Infact, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting in 2004 and 2005, whereas Jordan finished ahead of Shaq in MVP voting for every year of his Bulls' career, even as a 35 year old man (1992-1998).

We'll see if Lebron is still winning MVP's at 35 years old - I bet he doesn't win any past 32 or maybe 33.

[3ball]

Jordan saw the modern era and says, fk, I'm retiring for good this time.
Jordan won all the awards in 1998 over the best players Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett), while facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too)

[dankok8]

Lebron never won MVP, all-star MVP, Finals MVP, championship and scoring title over all of them like Jordan did in 1998 as a 35-year old man.

Infact, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting in 2004 and 2005, whereas Jordan finished ahead of Shaq in MVP voting for every year of his Bulls' career, even as a 35 year old man (1992-1998).

We'll see if Lebron is still winning MVP's at 35 years old - I bet he doesn't win any past 32 or maybe 33.

In 1998 Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett were young and not at their best.

I'll give you Shaq but if he doesn't miss so many games he's probably MVP over Jordan. Shaq in 1998 was the best player statistically and the most dominant.

Weak argument...

[3ball]

In 1998 Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett were young and not at their best.

I'll give you Shaq but if he doesn't miss so many games he's probably MVP over Jordan. Shaq in 1998 was the best player statistically and the most dominant.

Weak argument...


You're missing the point - it's clear that Jordan and Lebron played against many of the same players, which means they both played in the modern era (i.e. Bill Russell never played against anyone Jordan faced, whereas Jordan faced a ton of guys Lebron faced).

Since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).

Keep in mind that Jordan won all the awards in 1998 over the best players Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett), while also facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too)

[ShawkFactory]

You're missing the point - it's clear that Jordan and Lebron played against many of the same players, which means they both played in the modern era (i.e. Bill Russell never played against anyone Jordan faced, whereas Jordan faced a ton of guys Lebron faced).

Since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).

Keep in mind that Jordan won all the awards in 1998 over the best players Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett), while also facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too)
His point is why are you mentioning that Jordan won awards over those guys.

Kobe and Garnett were teenagers and Duncan was a rookie. It's a useless, and illogical, part of your argument.

[kentatm]

Best players Jordan faced:


1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Shaq


Best players Lebron faced:


1. Shaq*
2. Duncan*
3. Kobe*
4. Garnett*


*Jordan won every major award over these players in 1998 (when each guy was an all-star)


As you can see, Jordan dominated the best players Lebron ever faced, while facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced... :confusedshrug:

Dirk > KG the Kid

DWI

[3ball]

His point is why are you mentioning that Jordan won awards over those guys.

Kobe and Garnett were teenagers and Duncan was a rookie. It's a useless, and illogical, part of your argument.


By showing that Jordan dominated the best players that Lebron ever faced, it supports the fact that BOTH guys played in the modern era - this contrasts with Bill Russell, who never played against anyone Jordan faced, so he didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.

Ultimately, since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).

Not only did Jordan face the best players Lebron faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG), but he faced many guys who were BETTER, that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too)

[ShawkFactory]

By showing that Jordan dominated the best players that Lebron ever faced, it supports the fact that BOTH guys played in the modern era - this contrasts with Bill Russell, who never played against anyone Jordan faced, so he didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.

Ultimately, since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).

Not only did Jordan face the best players Lebron faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG), but he faced many guys who were BETTER, that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too)
You didn't address your horrendous argument.

Simply repeating a poor argument doesn't make it better.

They didn't play in the same era.

[bond10]

No they didn't play in the same modern era. MJ played in a time with clogged paints and ruthless man defense. LBJ played in a era with crazy spacing. MJ would explode in this era.

[3ball]

No they didn't play in the same modern era. MJ played in a time with clogged paints and ruthless man defense. LBJ played in a era with crazy spacing. MJ would explode in this era.


True.

Jordan played in the UNSPACED phase of the modern era, which is a tougher era than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.. Lebron and Curry achieve their stats with teammates spacing the floor (their teams attempted 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats without teammates spacing the floor (1991 Bulls took 5 threes per game).

So you're spot on - MJ's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - MJ was a superathlete like they are, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), whereas he had goat midrange efficiency, better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).. Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.

[ShawkFactory]

Saying Jordan and Lebron played in the same era is literally the same as saying Jordan and Havlicek played in the same era.

[3ball]

Saying Jordan and Lebron played in the same era is literally the same as saying Jordan and Havlicek played in the same era.


1978 basketball is about the same as 1984 basketball, just like 1998 basketball is about the same as 2004 basketball.

Tbh, in 1978, it was harder to score in the paint because there was no 3-point line.. The 3-point line gave players a marker for what was considered "perimeter" - so players naturally stood further from the hoop, regardless of whether they used the line or actually stood behind the line or not.

[bond10]

True.

Jordan played in the UNSPACED phase of the modern era, which is a tougher era than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.. Lebron and Curry achieve their stats with teammates spacing the floor (their teams attempted 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats without teammates spacing the floor (1991 Bulls took 5 threes per game).

So you're spot on - MJ's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - MJ was a superathlete like they are, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), whereas he had goat midrange efficiency, better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).. Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.

And a killer instinct, game closing ability that none of those guys have. If the game is down to the last minutes, every non Bulls fan shat their pants if MJ had the ball. Can't say the same for Westbrook, Curry, or Lebron.

[ShawkFactory]

1978 basketball is about the same as 1984 basketball, just like 1998 basketball is about the same as 2004 basketball.

Tbh, in 1978, it was harder to score in the paint because there was no 3-point line.. The 3-point line gave players a marker for what was considered "perimeter" - so players naturally stood further from the hoop, regardless of whether they used the line or actually stood behind the line or not.
:roll:

[Smoke117]

Kareem > Lebron >>> Jordan

[PP34Deuce]

The meltdown is so real in this thread. 3ball, warrior fan grasping for straws.

No one cares about this.

Lebron led Cleveland to beating golden state and coming back from 3-1 deficit. Lebron had 2 back to back 40 point games and had triple doubles while preventing golden state to enter the paint.

You can try as hard as you want but even his "haters" have shut up because you can't take this away from him.

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid the rockets :facepalm
Also saying 1998 and 2004 is basically the same is beyond retarded, thats over half a decade later

[TheWinningFam]

Havlicek and Jordan played in the same era until the mid-late 90's when no one that Havlicek played against was in the league anymore.

In Lebron/Jordan's case, I'd say 2016 is the final year they have in common, since both Duncan and Kobe just retired.

It's funny how the best wing Lebron ever played against was a copycat, poor-man's Jordan... That tells you everything you need to know.
Durant and leonard and butler are already better wings than kobe :facepalm
Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid the rockets.
And lebron destroyed kobe in head to head matchups both statistically and record wise :confusedshrug:

Kobe is 6-16 vs lebron...

[3ball]

:roll:


Havlicek and Jordan played in the same era until the mid-late 90's when no one that Havlicek played against was in the league anymore.

In Lebron/Jordan's case, I'd say 2016 is the final year they have in common, since both Duncan and Kobe just retired (arguably the top 2 players Lebron ever played against, who Jordan destroyed (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835)).

It's funny how the best wing Lebron ever played against was a copycat, poor-man's Jordan... That tells you everything you need to know.. Again - since both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can use ring count and fmvp's to determine who was better.

Btw, you should be glad we're discussing basketball on this forum - before that last post, you were unaware of how the EXISTENCE of a 3-point line provides more spacing than otherwise, even if the players don't stand fully behind the line or shoot threes.. Obviously, in today's game, players both stand behind the line AND shoot threes extensively, which makes for a wide open, soft game where players make less contact.

[PP34Deuce]

I think what is hilarious is that most people agree and feel MJ is the better player.

I believe Michael Jordan is a better player than Lebron James.

I do think Lebron James is the most naturally talented player we've ever seen. I also feel if you had a team of nobodies, Lebron is more likely easier to build around than an MJ.

Lebron is rare in that on offense he can be: PG, Point Forward, slasher
On defense he can be: sometimes anchor, weak side, man-to-man, post defender etc.

legit 6'8 260 pounds with athletic marvels, Lebron can effectively play defense at any point from 1-5.

[Smoke117]

Kareem > Lebron >>> Jordan

This.

[bond10]

I think what is hilarious is that most people agree and feel MJ is the better player.

I believe Michael Jordan is a better player than Lebron James.

I do think Lebron James is the most naturally talented player we've ever seen. I also feel if you had a team of nobodies, Lebron is more likely easier to build around than an MJ.

Lebron is rare in that on offense he can be: PG, Point Forward, slasher
On defense he can be: sometimes anchor, weak side, man-to-man, post defender etc.

legit 6'8 260 pounds with athletic marvels, Lebron can effectively play defense at any point from 1-5.

That is so overblown.

[ShawkFactory]

Havlicek and Jordan played in the same era until the mid-late 90's when no one that Havlicek played against was in the league anymore.

In Lebron/Jordan's case, I'd say 2016 is the final year they have in common, since both Duncan and Kobe just retired (arguably the top 2 players Lebron ever played against, who Jordan destroyed (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835)).

It's funny how the best wing Lebron ever played against was a copycat, poor-man's Jordan... That tells you everything you need to know.. Again - since both Jordan and Lebron played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can use ring count and fmvp's to determine who was better.

Btw, you should be glad we're discussing basketball on this forum - before that last post, you were unaware of how the EXISTENCE of a 3-point line provides more spacing than otherwise, even if the players don't stand fully behind the line or shoot threes.. Obviously, in today's game, players both stand behind the line AND shoot threes extensively, which makes for a wide open, soft game where players make less contact.
:facepalm ...to that entire post.

[3ball]

Lebron led Cleveland to beating golden state and coming back from 3-1 deficit.

the haters can't take that away from him


Lebron needed 7 games, which makes him LESS dominant, not more dominant.

7 games was needed because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 turnovers through 4 games - then he came back by averaging 36 ppg for the last 3 games.

But if he averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE SERIES like Jordan did in 1991-1993 Finals (36/7/8), then he wouldn't need a 7th game, like Jordan.





3ball and warriorfan grasping at straws


Just stating facts - Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so both guys played against many of the same players.

Jordan even dominated and won all the awards over the best players Lebron played against (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412835), most notably Shaq.. So since both MJ and Lebron played in the modern era, we can use ring count and fmvp's to determine the better player.

[TheWinningFam]

That is so overblown.
Not really.

In the 2012 and 13 finals he frequently guarded all 5 positions on the court..

And even in some moments in the 16 finals

[3ball]

:facepalm ...to that entire post.


Ultimately, since the list of players in Jordan's era (including the 4 best players that Lebron ever played against) is equal or better than today's top players, it's clear that BOTH guys played in the modern era, which means we can use ring count and fmvp's to determine who was better.

[Smoke117]

We can all agree that Lebron has surpassed Jordan, right guys? :confusedshrug:

[TomCat]

.
Jordan won his last ring only 6 years before Lebron entered the league, so both guys played against many of the same players and in the modern era... Otoh, Bill Russell never played against anyone Jordan faced, so Russell didn't play in Jordan's era or the modern era.

Specifically, 35-year old Jordan won all the awards in 1998 over the best players Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett - who were all-stars in 98'), while also facing BETTER players that Lebron never faced (Kareem, Magic, Bird... Hakeem too).. Jordan's clean sweep of the awards in 1998 also beat out Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and more.. These guys are obviously equal or better than today's players, which proves that Jordan played in the modern era.

Since they both played in the modern era and against many of the same players, we can compare their ring count and fmvp count DIRECTLY, which means Lebron's individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs are half of Jordan's (he has half the rings and fmvp's).
.

Russell played against Kareem.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ may have 6 rings but he'll always be remembered for resting for nearly 2 seasons then coming back to win 3 more with a super team.

During the second 3peat, MJ never had a second player who scored higher than 19.2ppg, and that player (Pip), shot 39 and 41% in the 96,97, and 98 playoffs. The third option Kukoc? 10.8 ppg in 96, 7.9 in 97, and 13.1 in 98. Rodman?13.7,8.4, and 11.8 rebounds per game, all significant drops from the regular season. OTOH MJ increased his regular season scoring in 96/97/98 from 30.4/29.6/28.7 to 30.7/31.1/32.4 in the playoffs, while scoring 50% of the Bulls 4th quarter points in the 97 and 98 finals. So what is your argument for this being a superteam when all the key players' playoff production after MJ dipped, while his increased? If MJ had followed a similar pattern they very likely don't 3peat.

As for his 1 1/2 seasons 'break', that probably adversely impacted him more than if he had played through that period. MJ in 93 was coming off his best statistical season since 1990( his scoring, rebounds, and steals were the highest since before the 3peat) so its not as if he was showing symptoms of his game slowing down. He had to get his body back to peak basketball condition, as opposed to maintaining that conditioning, timing and muscle memory if he had played right through. Asides from the foot injury he was as durable as they come, having 7 seasons with 80 or more games in his first 9 years, compared to Lebron who is considered an ironman but has only played 2 seasons with 80 or more games. Coming back to a league that was being dominated by centers( Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson), up and coming perimeter stars in Penny, Hill and having to re-assert his individual dominance and lead an entirely different cast of players( Pippen and Phil aside) to another 3peat adds to his greatness, not detracts. If anything, the 2nd 3peat is what solidified him as GOAT in the eyes of most.

[Hey Yo]

Lol @ mj having a super team.
1996

Pippen All-NBA first team....All-NBA Defense first team. Not asked to be a scorer first

Rodman All-NBA Defense first team....avg. 15 rebounds a game which led the league. didn't need scoring, just world class defense and rounding.

Kukoc the best Euro in the league at the time and was a 50-40 guy

Steve Kerr 50-50-90 guy coming off the bench.

[3ball]

1996

Pippen All-NBA first team....All-NBA Defense first team. Not asked to be a scorer first

Rodman All-NBA Defense first team....avg. 15 rebounds a game which led the league. didn't need scoring, just world class defense and rounding.

Kukoc the best Euro in the league at the time and was a 50-40 guy

Steve Kerr 50-50-90 guy coming off the bench.


that's a super-team???...

:roll:

Kerr and Kukoc were 7 ppg and 12 ppg role players that EVERY team has, except they were horrible defenders..

So the only unique players you mentioned were Pippen and Rodman.. Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs, while Rodman averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs, and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs.. Give Lebron these guys and he doesn't win a single ring.

[CuterThanRubio]

Jordan shot under 30% from outside in the 2000s, he would not survive in the modern era!

[Dragonyeuw]

1996

Pippen All-NBA first team....All-NBA Defense first team. Not asked to be a scorer first

Rodman All-NBA Defense first team....avg. 15 rebounds a game which led the league. didn't need scoring, just world class defense and rounding.

Kukoc the best Euro in the league at the time and was a 50-40 guy

Steve Kerr 50-50-90 guy coming off the bench.

All of those players production dipped from regular season to playoffs. MJs went up and dropped off slightly because of a few subpar games against Seattle after leading the Bulls to a 3-0 lead. What they did in the regular season is irrelevant, as the Warriors so aptly demonstrated this past offseason.

Kyries finals performance trumps anything MJs so called super team help did in the 96-98 playoffs.

[Smoke117]

All of those players production dipped from regular season to playoffs. MJs went up and dropped off slightly because of a few subpar games against Seattle after leading the Bulls to a 3-0 lead. What they did in the regular season is irrelevant, as the Warriors so aptly demonstrated this past offseason.

Kyries finals performance trumps anything MJs so called super team help did in the 96-98 playoffs.

Pippen was hurt for literally every playoff run from 96-98...didn't stop him from leading the 96 and 98 playoffs in drating and defensive shares though...who cares if his scoring went down...you can't replace that kind dominance on the defensive end. That's why 3ball is so full of shit...he never even acknowledges Pippens dominant defense in pretty much every championship run.

[3ball]

That's why 3ball is so full of shit...he never even acknowledges Pippens dominant defense in pretty much every championship run.


Jordan's defense was also "dominant", even though he averaged 10-25 more points than Pippen and carried the biggest offensive load ever.

However, nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense, so that cancels out more when comparing championship teams than a great offense, which only SOME champions have - the Bulls had a dominant offense because of Jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

Pippen was hurt for literally every playoff run from 96-98...didn't stop him from leading the 96 and 98 playoffs in drating and defensive shares though...who cares if his scoring went down...you can't replace that kind dominance on the defensive end. That's why 3ball is so full of shit...he never even acknowledges Pippens dominant defense in pretty much every championship run.

Whether he was hurt or not doesn't dismiss the fact that MJs production increased and his teammates decreased. The reasons are immaterial, the facts are that his 'super team' as described by Hey Yo didnt produce at the same level as the regular season, fortunately they had a player capable of filling in the offensive holes made by his 2nd and 3rd options offensive production dip. Was Pip stellar defensively in those runs? Absolutely, but that doesn't dismiss what I said, primarily that this idea that the Bulls were some 'super team' is perpetuated by those who make it their goal to piss on MJ for whatever reason. Quite a number of teams had comparable talent to the Bulls during their run, but to hear the haters talk you'd think the Bulls had the equal of the 80s Lakers and Celtics rosters playing against a league of d-leaguers.

[Smoke117]

Jordan's defense was also "dominant", even though he averaged 10-25 more points than Pippen and carried the biggest offensive load ever.

However, nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense, so that cancels out more when comparing championship teams than a great offense, which only SOME champions have - the Bulls had a dominant offense because of Jordan.

You're a ****ing clown and that logic is idiotic. Saying all championship teams have great defense to in some way diminish Pippens contribution...wtf? They are great defensive teams because of the GREAT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS YOU ****ING RETARD. Bulls don't win 6 championships without Pippens dominant defense.

[3ball]

You're a ****ing clown and that logic is idiotic. Saying all championship teams have great defense to in some way diminish Pippens contribution...wtf? They are great defensive teams because of the GREAT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS YOU ****ING RETARD. Bulls don't win 6 championships without Pippens dominant defense.


No, I'm saying that great defense is more of a team effort and more common among championship teams than a great offense, which was due more to Jordan and is LESS common among championship teams.

MJ and Pippen were both the best defenders at their position and share the credit for the Bulls' great defense, whereas the Bulls' great offense was due to Jordan.. Pippen's offense was often anemic and sub-par for a 2nd option.

[Smoke117]

No, I'm saying that great defense is more of a team effort and more common among championship teams than a great offense, which was due more to Jordan and is LESS common among championship teams.

MJ and Pippen were both the best defenders at their position and share the credit for the Bulls' great defense, whereas the Bulls' great offense was due to Jordan.. Pippen's offense was often anemic and sub-par for a 2nd option.

Jordan wasn't close to as good as Pippen defensively in the 2nd threepeat. He was the 3rd best defender on the team after rodman by that time.

[stephanieg]

Basing eras on players is one way. Kareem played forever, but the late '60s and late '80s were very different leagues. You could refer to the Kareem era, but there could be more interesting breakdowns based on something other than random player careers.

To me, and most people disagreeing with I'm sure, eras are about rules and style of play. So, the '99 lockout to about the mid '00s is its own weird era, basketball was in the doldrums, lots of rule changes, new handcheck and zone rules introduced, fairly low scoring, lots of iso-heavy ball, teams trying to post up and get big stiffs to defend against Shaq, etc. The modern era started when teams started incorporating zone and mass three point shooting. Early modern teams would be the Nash Suns, '08 Celtics, '09 Magic, and so on. The height of small ball, drive and kick, constant PnR, and so on.

So for my money, LeBron and MJ mostly played two eras apart.

[3ball]

Jordan wasn't close to as good as Pippen defensively in the 2nd threepeat. He was the 3rd best defender on the team after rodman by that time.


Nonsense - by your own logic, Jordan had higher DWS and DRtg than Pippen in 1997 playoffs..

And Jordan guarded the other team's best player - he guarded Reggie Miller while Pippen guarded the slowest PG of all-time in Mark Jackson.

Jordan guarded Gary Payton from the tip-off and was his primary defender in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of 1996 NBA Finals, whereas Pippen never guarded him.

Jordan guarded Stockton a ton in 1997 and 1998 Finals - documented here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0) - while Pippen never guarded him.

The only time Pippen guarded the other team's best perimeter player was in 1996 ECF against Penny, who lit him up for 25 ppg on 47% (well above his norm).. Interestingly, Jordan spent time on Penny as well - every possession is shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAtNOjco8yQ) - Jordan held Penny to 1 point on 1-5, 2 assists and 3 TO's.

[Smoke117]

Nonsense - by your own logic, Jordan had higher DWS and DRtg than Pippen in 1997 playoffs..

And Jordan guarded the other team's best player - he guarded Reggie Miller while Pippen guarded the slowest PG of all-time in Mark Jackson.

Jordan guarded Gary Payton from the tip-off and was his primary defender in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of 1996 NBA Finals, whereas Pippen never guarded him.

Jordan guarded Stockton a ton in 1997 and 1998 Finals - documented here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0) - while Pippen never guarded him.

The only time Pippen guarded the other team's best perimeter player was in 1996 ECF against Penny, who lit him up for 25 ppg on 47% (well above his norm).. Interestingly, Jordan spent time on Penny as well - every possession is shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAtNOjco8yQ) - Jordan held Penny to 1 point on 1-5, 2 assists and 3 TO's.

Yeah...because you don't want Pippen stuck to one primary player...you want him out there playing his GOAT help/team defense.

[3ball]

Yeah...because you don't want Pippen stuck to one primary player...you want him out there playing his GOAT help/team defense.


MJ and Pippen were both the best defenders at their position - both were dominant defenders on and off-ball.

The difference is that MJ scored between 10-25 points more than Pippen and carried the biggest offensive load ever (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920), which shows the extent of his goatness and vast superiority.

Also, great team defense is more of a team effort and more common among championship teams than a great offense, which was due mostly to Jordan and is LESS common among championship teams.

[Dragonyeuw]

The narrative when trying to discredit MJs role during the second 3peat often goes along the lines of hyping up the defensive side of things, where Pippen can be credibly argued for in terms of his impact, while dismissing MJs scoring or triviializing Pippen's erratic 2nd 3peat scoring as the second option. ' Pip was crap offensively in the playoffs in 96? Meh, who cares, what about his DEFENSE!!!' Yeah, ok, but when people start talking about second options its usually in reference to their offense complimenting the lead scorer.

There's a reason why the majority of the generally acknowledged top ten players- MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Lebron, Hakeem, Kobe, are also among the greatest offensive players ever production-wise, but when it comes to the anti- MJ brigade, averaging over 30 for just about every playoff series of his career is dismissed as a walk in the park, or somehow being an alpha scorer is equal to being a defensive standpoint. When you've got a guy who can score at a rate better than anyone else, you can easier fill in the blanks with defensive specialists, spot shooters and rebounders than building a championship squad around a defensive-oriented talent without someone who can score big in the pivotal moments that decide which way a game or series goes.