Has Lebron ever led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did?

[3ball]

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In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8..

So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty..

Essentially, Jordan led that same 1989 lottery roster to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team... Has Lebron ever led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did?

[Smoke117]

Kareem > Lebron >>> Jordan

[Ben Simmons]

Jordan's stat padding held the team back. They would have won more games if he played optimally.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Irving and Love spent their whole careers on lotto teams until they played with LeBron.

[Trollsmasher]

Knowing what happened to the team when Jordan retired for the first time, they would likely easily made make the playoffs at 45 wins.

Jordan = low impact player

[3ball]

Kareem > Lebron >>> Jordan


KAJ and LBJ never led a lottery team to a championship.

But MJ did - his 1989 team won 47 games, but they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so the Bulls had a lottery roster in 1989, that that Jordan led to a championship in 1991.

Otoh, KAJ needed Oscar.... :oldlol:

[Prometheus]

Just imagine how much you could accomplish if you took the monumental effort you expend arguing for Jordan > LeBron and spent it doing literally anything else.

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan was playing suboptimal basketball in 1989. Not a coincident he didn't beat Detroit until they were no longer optimal.

[Rocketswin2013]

Phil Jackson was the difference between the pre and post 1989 bulls.

[3ball]

Jordan's stat padding held the team back. They would have won more games if he played optimally.


Jordan's brand of basketball thrived in the higher-competition playoffs - the 6th-seeded Bulls upset a higher seed in every round, and took the world champs to 6 games in the ECF.

Compare that to Lebron's 2009 Cavs - they won 66 games and were the 1-seed, but their brand of basketball was exposed by the Dwight Howard's lowly-regarded, underdog Magic.

Btw, Lebron won 66 games in 2009, which was 19 more than Jordan won in 1989, even though Lebron's stats were worse - 28/8/7 vs. MJ's 33/8/8.

The 19-win advantage despite Lebron's inferior production indicates a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well... But not brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand was more successful in the playoffs, as explained in the first 2 sentences of this post.
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[PP34Deuce]

This is a fun game to play.

Phil Jackson is the sole coach for all of Jordan and Kobe's rings.

Lebron.. 2 coaches considered rookies..have rings in large part to his dominance. dominance that has beat western conference teams who are considered the best by the finals.

Jordan has never won rings or gotten to NBA finals without a Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson however, has won rings without Jordan.

[3ball]

Phil Jackson was the difference between the pre and post 1989 bulls.


Phil's triangle has only worked with MJ, Shaq, and Kobe/Pau - it's never worked anywhere else, even though many teams have tried it, including Phil and Carmelo's Knicks.

Without MJ, the triangle doesn't work - and he had to adjust his game significantly to fit into an "equal-opportunity" offense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s


Learn specifically how the triangle was "equal-opportunity" in the OP of this thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412411).

[TheWinningFam]

Has jordan ever lead a rookie coach to a title?

[Smoke117]

This is a fun game to play.

Phil Jackson is the sole coach for all of Jordan and Kobe's rings.

Lebron.. 2 coaches considered rookies..have rings in large part to his dominance. dominance that has beat western conference teams who are considered the best by the finals.

Jordan has never won rings or gotten to NBA finals without a Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson however, has won rings without Jordan.

https://m.popkey.co/7e8e08/rbdWv.gif

[3ball]

This is a fun game to play.

Phil Jackson is the sole coach for all of Jordan and Kobe's rings.


Coach Lue and Spolestra are the sole reasons for Lebron's rings.

You're right.. This is a fun game to play.

[3ball]

Has Lebron ever led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did?


Not a single response to this question - I guess that's because it's common knowledge that he didn't.

He needed to team-hop to win his rings because he's incapable of improving the teamwork on his team over time like Jordan did - the 1991 Bulls were the same roster as the 1989 lottery roster, but their teamwork improved drastically.

But Lebron isn't capable of this - he can't imrove and grow with a team during his tenure - the 2007 Cavs never made the Finals again; the 2011 Heat were the same as 2012 but they just choked; the 2015 Cavs were injured - so it's clear that he isn't capable of improving the teamwork on a team over time
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[bigkingsfan]

Winning a title with two teams > one

[bdreason]

LeBron took a pretty shitty team to the NBA Finals at quite a young age. I don't think any of those Cavs teams were all that good.

[3ball]

Lebron took a pretty shitty team to the NBA Finals at quite a young age.



Do you realize that Lebron's 2007 playoff run is vastly inferior to Jordan's in 1989?



Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



Lebron's 2007 playoff stats (25 ppg on 42%) would be the worst of Jordan's playoff career, by far... So quit overrating Lebron's 2007 performance against pure SHIT comp






Lebron took a pretty shitty team to the NBA Finals at quite a young age.



Look how 22 year old Jordan and Lebron played against championship teams and #1 defenses:



Jordan vs. 86' Celtics: 44 ppg on 50%
Lebron vs. 07' Spurs:I 22 ppg on 36%





I don't think any of those Cavs teams were all that good.


How do you explain the 2009 Cavs winning 19 more games than the 1989 Bulls, even though Jordan produced more than Lebron (33/8/8 on 54% versus Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%)?

Don't say brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand was better because his it was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by the lowly, underdog Orlando team.
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[K Xerxes]

Do you know what confounding factors are, 3ball? Your arguments are horrible, though I dont disagree that Jordan is >> LeBron.

[3ball]

Do you know what confounding factors are, 3ball? Your arguments are horrible, though I dont disagree that Jordan is >> LeBron.


Do you know what a passive-aggressive poster is?

Explain which argument is "horrible" and why, or gtfo of the thread.
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[3ball]

Phil Jackson was the difference between the pre and post 1989 bulls.


He's a luckbox - no one would know who Phil was if he had lesser talent than MJ, Shaq and Kobe/Pau, or ball-dominators unfit for the triangle.

Also, ANY coach that won 6 rings with one team would be called the GOAT coach.. But Phil isn't the goat coach - he's the only guy in history that coached 3 top 10 players..

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah a lotto team with all star scottie pippen the year before 1st chip, Horace grant, a few decent role players and the 3 poitn champ on the bench lol. Seems like mj was holding them back......

[AirBonner]

Mj started winning when his competition faded. Weak era.

[AintNoSunshine]

With MJ, without Pippen -> 1-9

With Pippen, without MJ -> one bad call away from NBA Finals.

:rolleyes:

By the way these are facts. So don't even bother refuting.

[Human Error]

Lebron's Finals teammates have been Sasha Pavlovic, Daniel Gibson, Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes etc you idiot. That is some D league roster, and he takes them deep into the playoffs every year.

Cavs in their 1st season without Lebron: From 1st in East to 26 consecutive losses
Heat in their 1st season without Lebron: From 1st in East to 37-45 and missed the playoffs

If you do not see Lebron's impact, you are a true idiot, and idiots are not worth my time.

[Megabox!]

I didn't realize the 1989 Bulls won the Championship, I thought it was the MUCH better version of that team in 1991 that won it all 🤔🤔

[NBAplayoffs2001]

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In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8..

So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty..

Essentially, Jordan led that same 1989 lottery roster to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team... Has Lebron ever led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did?

His first championship team was quite weak but the Lakers were also decimated at that point since their glory days of the 80s. Totally understandable since they had 8 final runs the previous decade. They were just exhausted and prime for the quick rebuild they had in the mid to late 90s.

[Sportal]

LeBron got the 2007 Cavs to the FINALS. That's a bigger team achievement than any team Jordan has been a part of.

How many years since LeBron joined the league has he missed the Play-offs? How many has Jordan? How many first round exits does LeBron have? How many does Jordan have? LeBron has spent over half of his years in the NBA, playing Finals basketball.

I'm not even arguing that whole LeBron > Jordan shit. Just answer my questions because you are far too biased and often dodge anything and everything that's a counter-argument.

[3ball]

His first championship team was quite weak but the Lakers were also decimated at that point since their glory days of the 80s.



Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 - here's a comparison of the 1991 Lakers and Bulls without Magic/Worthy and MJ/Pippen:


.........................RS and Finals......................................RS and Finals

Sam Perkins........14/7 and 17/8 ...........Horace Grant.......13/8 and 15/8

Vlade Divac ........11/8 and 18/9............ John Paxson........ 9/2 and 13/2

AC Green............. 9/6 and 6/6.............. Cartwright.......... 9/5 and 9/6

Byron Scott......... 15/4 and 6/3............. Armstrong........... 9/3 and 2/1



Magic clearly had a more talented supporting cast, IN ADDITION to his massive experience advantage, which is why he was favored, as documented by NBA.com's history archive:


....the Bulls were considered big underdogs to the Lakers in the Finals and the vast majority of media "experts" predicted an easy Lakers' victory.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/20anniversary_199091.html/


People viewed Jordan as the newcomer who would lose a few times before he beat the experienced Magic, just like he did to the Pistons.. Jordan was viewed as not ready for that 3 am phone call (i.e. the biggest stage)..

Of course, Jordan dominated Magic (top 5 all-time player) more than anyone ever has (33/7/11/56 vs. 19/7/13/43)

[NBAGOAT]

KAJ and LBJ never led a lottery team to a championship.

But MJ did - his 1989 team won 47 games, but they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so the Bulls had a lottery roster in 1989, that that Jordan led to a championship in 1991.

Otoh, KAJ needed Oscar.... :oldlol:

I consider 3 peat Pippen over Oscar at that stage of his career so your point really doesn't hold that much weight. Anyway Kareem was drafted to a lottery team and won a title in 2 years. Bucks improved from 27 wins to 56 wins in his rookie year(without Oscar).

[aj1987]

Jordan's stat padding held the team back. They would have won more games if he played optimally.
Agreed, but the guy doesn't have a J. Ordan.

Austin Rivers would lead those teams to a ring. Heck, Ordan got replaced by an 8 PPG Myers and the Bulls lost just 2 more games.

[3ball]

LeBron got the 2007 Cavs to the FINALS. That's a bigger team achievement than any team Jordan has been a part of.


Lebron averaged 25 ppg on 45% in the 2007 playoffs, which would be the worst of Jordan's career.

Now why did Lebron get to the Finals by playing worse than Jordan ever did?... Because his conference was the weakest of all-time, which is why he's defeated literally HALF the number of 50-win teams as Jordan in the playoffs.

Lebron's weaker conference and better supporting cast is also why he won more games despite producing less: he won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, even though his stats were 28/8/7 compared to Jordan's 33/8/8





1) How many years since LeBron joined the league has he missed the Play-offs? How many has Jordan?

2) How many first round exits does LeBron have? How many does Jordan have? L

3) LeBron has spent over half of his years in the NBA, playing Finals basketball.


1) Lebron missed the playoffs twice (despite having a 2-time all-star Center on his team) compared to Jordan's zero, even though he has zero all-stars until 1990.

2) Lebron played in the weakest conference ever and had a better supporting cast, so he won more games despite producing less (he won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, even though his stats were 28/8/7 compared to Jordan's 33/8/8).. Lebron's easier conference and better supporting cast gave him a better record so he played low seeds in the first round..

Otoh, Jordan's conference was far tougher, so he had low seeds early in his career and played championship teams in the 1st round.. But when you compare Jordan and Lebron's performance at 22 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses, you see that Jordan averaged 44 ppg on 50% against the 86' Celtics, compared to Lebron's 22 ppg on 36% against the 07' Spurs.

3) Jordan's championship frequency - 6 in 15 seasons - is GOAT for the modern era (post 1960)... By comparison, Lebron's frequency is 3/13 - he has half the rings and FMVP's, so he has half the individual and team accomplishments in the playoffs.
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[K.dot ShowTime]

3ball is a stubborn man. :applause:

Schooling fools for breakfast

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid the rockets.

[K.dot ShowTime]

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid the rockets.

:lol

Try harder. Pathetic.

[TheWinningFam]

:lol

Try harder. Pathetic.
Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid facing the clutch city rockets
This would be like if lebron retired to play Tight end for the browns after the warriors signed durant :facepalm except what jordan did was even WORSE

He was in a middle of a contract with the bulls, otoh, lebron is a free agent AND coming off a win against the GOAT regular season team..
This team was better than anything ordan faced in his expansion era days.

[K.dot ShowTime]

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid facing the clutch city rockets
This would be like if lebron retired to play Tight end for the browns after the warriors signed durant :facepalm except what jordan did was even WORSE

He was in a middle of a contract with the bulls, otoh, lebron is a free agent AND coming off a win against the GOAT regular season team..
This team was better than anything ordan faced in his expansion era days.

Say it again

[aj1987]

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid the rockets.
Ordan was just scared shitless. Would've quit after his first season in the social media era.

[3ball]

Ordan was just scared shitless. Would've quit after his first season in the social media era.
jordan and his 3-time defending champs would be a massive favorite against the rockets.

there isn't a single poster on this forum that would bet against the bulls..

mad max was an okay defender, but nothing compared to starks.. and they have no one to guard Pippen

[aj1987]

ordan and his 3-time defending champs would be a massive favorite against the rockets.

there isn't a single poster on this forum that would bet against the bulls..

mad max was an okay defender, but nothing compared to starks
Hakeem would absolutely massacre the Bulls. That being said, Ordan was just scared shitless. Would've quit after his first season in the social media era.