Only Phil coached THREE top 10 players and every top 10 player has/is worth 3+ rings

[3ball]

So let's not overrate this guy

[TheWinningFam]

How many top 5 players did lue or spolestra coach before lebron

[Bankaii]

What did each player win without Phil?
Shaq won one ring where he was a sidekick and Dwade was getting every call in the world.

[ScalsFan21]

What did each player win without Phil?
Shaq won one ring where he was a sidekick and Dwade was getting every call in the world.

It's also worth noting he had another top 3-4 HC all-time in MIA too that season.

[aj1987]

What did each player win without Phil?
Shaq won one ring where he was a sidekick and Dwade was getting every call in the world.
You're a LeBron turd and you're whining about calls from a decade ago? Your idol averaged 15 FT's a game for 3 straight series.

Back to topic - M_ would be ringless without Phil. PJax taught him how to win.

[iamgine]

These top 10 players didn't win anything before Phil came and taught them how to win.

[ScalsFan21]

You're a LeBron turd and you're whining about calls from a decade ago? Your idol averaged 15 FT's a game for 3 straight series.

Back to topic - M_ would be ringless without Phil. PJax taught him how to win.

LMAO.

"Ordan" is great but that's even better.

[3ball]

These top 10 players didn't win anything before Phil came and taught them how to win.


All top 10 players have 3+ rings, whether it's Jordan, Bird or Duncan - they're all worth 3 rings a piece - and Phil is the only guy to ever coach 3 of them.

Again, let's not overrate this guy.. He's a good personality coach - in other words, he's likeable.. But that doesn't mean he's great at other aspects of coaching, like strategy - his triangle doesn't even work with a guy as talented as Carmelo - it simply doesn't work unless you have a top 10 all-time player, which Carmelo is nowhere near.

[Bankaii]

You're a LeBron turd and you're whining about calls from a decade ago? Your idol averaged 15 FT's a game for 3 straight series.

Back to topic - M_ would be ringless without Phil. PJax taught him how to win.
Quit being so defensive you little bitch, I don't have an idol so you bringing up LeBron doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Everybody and they momma knows Dwhistle took a a crapton of free throws. Get over it.

[AintNoSunshine]

Still Jordan couldn't win sht without him and Pippen.

[iamgine]

All top 10 players have 3+ rings
Some of them didn't win anything before Phil came and might not be top 10 if not for Phil.

[3ball]

Some of them didn't win anything before Phil came and might not be top 10 if not for Phil.


Oh, I get it - you're trolling, because your bolded statement above doesn't make sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong - it isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best talent of any coach ever

[TheWinningFam]

Oh, I get it - you're trolling, because your bolded statement above doesn't make sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong - it isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best talent of any coach ever
1-9 without pippen
Colluded with white sox to avoid the rockets.

[iamgine]

You're either trolling or dumb, because the bolded statement above doesn't make sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong - it isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever
The reason they're top 10 is because they won rings. And they didn't win anything before Phil came.

[3ball]

The reason they're top 10 is because they won rings. And they didn't win anything before Phil came.


Again - that makes no sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong, unless you're saying MJ and Shaq aren't top 10... Is that what you're saying?

It isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever

[ScalsFan21]

if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

How high do you have Duncan in that case?

Duncan's on-court impact, longevity and accolades all match up well with being somewhere in that 6-10 range all-time, but you could debate all day whether he'd be fringe-DPOY level and such a team-oriented god to the extent that he was without Popovich's influence.

Who's to say he wouldn't be only top 15-20 like Garnett or Dirk had he not been paved a golden path to kick off his career with the Robinson injury (artificially superimposing a consensus #1 overall pick to an inorganically stacked situation which few top picks ever get to do), as well as having a great front office his entire career.

Where is the line drawn? Did Duncan not reach those impressive heights just because he had a lot of coaching/veteran influence helping him along the way?

[Quickening]

3 top ten players? MJ and Shaq definitely... However I personally have Pippen top 20, not sure about top ten for him bro.

[TheWinningFam]

Again - that makes no sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong, unless you're saying MJ and Shaq aren't top 10... Is that what you're saying?

It isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever
Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid facing the clutch city rockets
This would be like if lebron retired to play Tight end for the browns after the warriors signed durant :facepalm except what jordan did was even WORSE
he was in a middle of a contract with the bulls, meanwhile lebron is a free agent AND comming off a win agianst the GOAT regular season team.. this team was better than anything ordan faced in his career.

[iamgine]

Again - that makes no sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong, unless you're saying MJ and Shaq aren't top 10... Is that what you're saying?

It isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever
I think it makes no sense only for you.

They didn't win anything before Phil came.

[aj1987]

Quit being so defensive you little bitch, I don't have an idol so you bringing up LeBron doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Everybody and they momma knows Dwhistle took a a crapton of free throws. Get over it.
:roll: @ This LeBron turd call out another player on his FT's. Keep living that basement life, LeBron turd.

If science advances enough to get you a brain transplant, you might want to take a look at this post, if you want to have a legit argument.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10627587&postcount=6

[FKAri]

So let's not overrate this guy
Who overrated him? Is Phil in the news? What prompted you to make a thread on Phil?

[NBAGOAT]

Who overrated him? Is Phil in the news? What prompted you to make a thread on Phil?

someone said Jordan was coached by Phil for all his rings while Lebron had Spoelstra and Lue. Surprised it hasn't been said more often before in response to 3ball.

[3ball]

Who's to say he wouldn't be only top 15-20 like Garnett or Dirk had he not been paved a golden path to kick off his career

Where is the line drawn? Did Duncan not reach those impressive heights just because he had a lot of coaching/veteran influence helping him along the way?


Let's see how well Popovich's system works without Duncan or another superstar to replace him.. And we already saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit).

Regarding Dirk and Garnett - ultimately, Duncan would do better in the situations that Dirk and Garnett were in than Dirk and Garnett did, and those guys wouldn't do quite as good in Duncan's spot.. Heck, Dirk had great coaching in Carlisle, but he only has 1 ring.. Garnett got good coaching in Boston, but he proved to be less durable than Duncan.. That's why those guys aren't top 10 but Duncan is.

Ultimately, the PLAYERS execute the plays and win the games, not coaches.. Also, some players can fit into highly restrictive, complicated systems like Pop and Phil's, while some can't... Lebron had many coaches and they all coach him the same way, because his style doesn't lend itself to restrictive systems that restrict how long he can dribble, hold the ball, and where he can go on the court.

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball's right, Jordan won 6 titles with nothing but scrub teammates and incompetent coaching. Tbh the Bulls were arguably the worst run organization of the '90's, and only managed to win a pathetic 55 games without Jordan

[3ball]

3ball's right, Jordan won 6 titles with nothing but scrub teammates and incompetent coaching.


I wouldn't go that far, but he won with less than anyone else.

That's why he led a lottery team to a championship within 2 years, which no one has ever done.. That's also why he had the biggest scoring load ever while still leading his team in (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing AND being the best defender ever at his position.

Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad - Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan - 5-ring dynasties come around once in a lifetime for franchises..

Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round after having a 3-peat champion with MJ and was out of the playoffs before MJ came back and saved them in 1995.

[TheWinningFam]

I wouldn't go that far, but he won with less than anyone else.

That's why he led a lottery team to a championship within 2 years, which no one has ever done.. That's also why he had the biggest scoring load ever while still leading his team in (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing AND being the best defender ever at his position.

Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad - Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan.. Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round after having a 3-peat champion with MJ and was out of the playoffs before MJ came back and saved them in 1995.

Ultimately, the PLAYERS execute the plays and win the games, not coaches.. Also, some players can fit into highly restrictive, complicated systems like Pop and Phil's, while some can't... Lebron had many coaches and they all coach him the same way, because his style doesn't lend itself to restrictive systems that restrict how long he can dribble, hold the ball, and where he can go on the court.
Jordan needed pippen and the GOAT coach jackson to just get outside the first round.

Otoh, Lebron took 3 different coaches to the finals in Mike brown Lue and spolestra, 3 coaches who were basically rookies assigned with the task of forming a team around lebron...
This is also what makes lebron just all around better than jordan..

With lebron coaches mold their systems around HIM. all with lesser talent he won MORE.

With jordan he had to be plugged into a system with a GOAT level supporting cast and GOAT coach because without it he went 1-9 and couldn't get out of the first round..

[3ball]

Otoh, Lebron took 3 different coaches to the finals in Mike brown Lue and spolestra, 3 coaches who were basically rookies assigned with the task of forming a team around lebron...


Lebron team-hopping has accounted for all his rings - you'll never get past that.

MANY players could've gone 2/4 if they teamed up with arguably the best SG and PF in the league - even Lebron knows he underachieved, since he expected to go "not 5, not 6, not 7"





With lebron coaches mold their systems around HIM


Right - that's why Lebron had it easier - he didn't have to change his game or get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, everything was teed up for him.





With jordan he had to be plugged into a system with a GOAT level supporting cast and GOAT coach because without it he went 1-9 and couldn't get out of the first round..


Complicated offensive systems are designed to help the ROLE PLAYERS and it requires superior skill for the star to achieve his normal stats while the system is restricting their full freedom.







Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:


Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:


Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced




jordan got plugged into a system with a GOAT level supporting cast


If Jordan's supporting cast was GOAT, how come that cast required him to score more than any player in history AND lead the team in passing (as shown above) AND be the best defender ever at his position?

[Papaya Petee]

Without Phil
Jordan was 1-9
Kobe has 0 rings (does Kobe even have a playoff appearance without Phil??)
Shaq has 1 sidekick ring where he got carried

hmmmmm

[3ball]

Without Phil

Jordan was 1-9
Kobe has 0 rings (does Kobe even have a playoff appearance without Phil??)
Shaq has 1 sidekick ring where he got carried



Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad:

Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan - 5-ring dynasties come around once in a lifetime for franchises..

Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round in 1994 after 3-peating with MJ, was out of the playoffs in 95' before MJ came back and saved them, and fell off a cliff to WOAT status when MJ left in 1998.

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron team-hopping has accounted for all his rings - you'll never get past that.

MANY players could've gone 2/4 if they teamed up with arguably the best SG and PF in the league - even Lebron knows he underachieved, since he expected to go "not 5, not 6, not 7"



Right - that's why Lebron had it easier - he didn't have to change his game or get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, everything was teed up for him.



Complicated offensive systems are designed to help the ROLE PLAYERS and it requires superior skill for the star to achieve his normal stats while the system is restricting their full freedom.




If Jordan's supporting cast was GOAT, how come that cast required him to score more than any player in history AND lead the team in passing (as shown above) AND be the best defender ever at his position?

1. Bosh was barely a top 5 pf in the league in 2010 :facepalm
2.Jordan's beta ass had to get plugged into a system to win, meanwhile lebron demanded a system be molded around him, and we he did he ALWAYS won..
4.Jordan assist and scoring percentages were due to the fact that he had a GOAT supporting cast, how can you not understand that?
He had GOAT role players in paxton and kerr to pass the ball out to
And the goat wingman in pippen to pass the ball to..
This allowed him to get more 1 on 1 situations due to teams not being able to double team him in fear of getting torched by his teammates, jordan is a top 5 scorer i'll give you that but lebron is the OVERALL BETTER player.

Jordan couldn't guard or block a center LEBRON COULD AND DID that in the
http://cdn3.everyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lebron-james-blocks-dunk.gif


finals Jordan couldn't chasedown a top athlete in iguadala from the backcourt
Lebron could AND DID that..
http://67.media.tumblr.com/673a14e6a00fe333cefd58d3ae8e2eda/tumblr_o920j0zOb21vph5uyo1_250.gif

Lebron is the superior defender and ALL around player

[Jasper]

So let's not overrate this guy
read title of thread as well as OP ...

pop has a top ten player =Duncan , so he as at least One.. :mad:

Red A. for Boston had probably at least 3 by the mid 60's

[3ball]

4.Jordan assist and scoring percentages were due to the fact that he had a GOAT supporting cast, how can you not understand that?
He had GOAT role players in paxton and kerr to pass the ball out to
And the goat wingman in pippen to pass the ball to..


Lebron has FAR more shooters spacing the floor for him than Jordan ever did - the Cavs shot 30 threes per game in 2016, compared to 5 per game for the 1991 Bulls, and 15 per game for the 2nd three-peat Bulls.





lebron demanded a system be molded around him, and we he did he ALWAYS won..


Lebron mostly loses - he's 3/7 in the Finals and he's only 3/13 in championship frequency for his career... Compare that to 6/6 and 6/15 (40%) goat frequency.

And Lebron getting the offense molded around him means he has it easier - he didn't need or have the skill to change his game and get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, he had full freedom to hold the ball as long as he wanted, which requires less skill to get stats.






jordan is a top 5 scorer i'll give you that but lebron is the OVERALL BETTER player.


Jordan averages nearly the same assists in the playoffs despite carrying a far heavier scoring load - Jordan is also the best defender ever at his position, which Lebron is not... So Jordan is the better overall player.

Btw, the one time he played PG for 24 games in 1989, he averaged 30/9/11, including 10 triple douhbles inh 11 games - Lebron has never passed this well, nor has he ever passed as well as Jordan did in 1991 Finals.





This allowed him to get more 1 on 1 situations due to teams not being able to double team him in fear of getting torched by his teammates


Jordan is the most double-teamed perimeter player of all-time - this is common knowledge - he was frequently doubled 10+ times in a quarter, as documented below.

Here's Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's more examples of Jordan getting doubled on every possession:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210


In contrast to Jordan getting doubled 10+ times in a QUARTER, Lebron was doubled-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 FINALS:


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team






1. Bosh was barely a top 5 pf in the league in 2010 :facepalm


You're lying - most people said he was the best PF and he was top 5 in PER for the entire league, let alone among PF's






Jordan couldn't guard or block a center

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebron-block1.gif?w=1000



Jordan blocked far better centers than lebron ever blocked - he blocked Shaq and Hakeem MANY times..


https://media.giphy.com/media/eSzPOOx7htU6A/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/ESUppSqJSBNWo/giphy.gif



And his career blocks in regular season and playoffs is the same as Lebron's - Lebron doesn't block shots better than Jordan.







Jordan couldn't chasedown a top athlete in iguadala from the backcourt
http://67.media.tumblr.com/673a14e6a00fe333cefd58d3ae8e2eda/tumblr_o920j0zOb21vph5uyo1_250.gif



https://media.giphy.com/media/uoZ9LAHzFUEBW/giphy.gif

[Rocketswin2013]

phil saved shaq and jordan's careers. from super talented underachievers to dominant wnners.

[TheWinningFam]

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron has FAR more shooters spacing the floor for him than Jordan ever did - the Cavs shot 30 threes per game in 2016, compared to 5 per game for the 1991 Bulls, and 15 per game for the 2nd three-peat Bulls.



Lebron mostly loses - he's 3/7 in the Finals and he's only 3/13 in championship frequency for his career... Compare that to 6/6 and 6/15 (40%) goat frequency.

And Lebron getting the offense molded around him means he has it easier - he didn't need or have the skill to change his game and get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, he had full freedom to hold the ball as long as he wanted, which requires less skill to get stats.




Jordan averages nearly the same assists in the playoffs despite carrying a far heavier scoring load - Jordan is also the best defender ever at his position, which Lebron is not... So Jordan is the better overall player.

Btw, the one time he played PG for 24 games in 1989, he averaged 30/9/11, including 10 triple douhbles inh 11 games - Lebron has never passed this well, nor has he ever passed as well as Jordan did in 1991 Finals.



Jordan is the most double-teamed perimeter player of all-time - this is common knowledge - he was frequently doubled 10+ times in a quarter, as documented below.

Here's Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's more examples of Jordan getting doubled on every possession:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210


In contrast to Jordan getting doubled 10+ times in a QUARTER, Lebron was doubled-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 FINALS:

[INDENT][I]"Curry

[ScalsFan21]

MJ really did come out of nowhere on that Shaq block. Shaq was so convinced it was a 1 on 1 situation that he idiotically went up with the right hand there when it was so obviously not the right shot for that situation. Or maybe it just seems that way on slo-mo gif form.

Still, that was a nasty stuff.

Shot-blocking is such an overrated aspect of defense. LeBron IMO was the more versatile defender, but also more prone to "picking and choosing" his spots. LeBron's help defense is truly GOAT level, where Michael really could lock up an opposing guard to the point where they'd basically cry.

Iggy block > Malone strip any day in terms of championship importance. Just sayin'.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, Phil coached TWO top 10 players, MJ and Shaq specifically, unless you consider Pippen a top 10 which I personally dont think so.

[Bankaii]

:roll: @ This LeBron turd call out another player on his FT's. Keep living that basement life, LeBron turd.

If science advances enough to get you a brain transplant, you might want to take a look at this post, if you want to have a legit argument.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10627587&postcount=6
Keep on bringing up Lebron and throwing out insults because your feelings are hurt.

2006 was rigged, get over it and quit melting down.

[branslowski]

Nope, Phil coached TWO top 10 players, MJ and Shaq specifically, unless you consider Pippen a top 10 which I personally dont think so.

Stop reaching, ur stupid is showing.

[TheWinningFam]

Stop reaching, ur stupid is showing.

kobe needed help from one of the GOAT coaches AND goat centers, But lets take shaq out of the equation and evaluate his 2 title clinchers without him..



09 title- 30-5-6 on 43% on shooting :facepalm
10 title - 23-2-15 on 25% shooting :facepalm
And these were for his just 2 mvp winning championships, he was argubaly only the best player for ONE of them AND only had the best final game ONCE .. Lebron NEVER had this problem.. :facepalm

[aj1987]

Keep on bringing up Lebron and throwing out insults because your feelings are hurt.

2006 was rigged, get over it and quit melting down.
Why do you insist on proving that you're a massive retard? Just hold the L and move along, LeBron turd.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Jordan was 1-9 pre-Pippen

What was he pre-Phil?

[Bankaii]

Why do you insist on proving that you're a massive retard? Just hold the L and move along, LeBron turd.
You're literally the only one ITT talking about Lebron.
Ad hom is usually a clear sign of a meltdown.

[aj1987]

You're literally the only one ITT talking about Lebron.
Ad hom is usually a clear sign of a meltdown.
Seems like you're blind and retarded. Also, literally doesn't mean what you think it does. You might want to go back and look (no pun intended) at the 2nd post ITT. NBAGOAT, ScalsFan, 3ball, etc..

Again, zero substance when it comes to actually discussing basketball. Hold the L, kid.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Stop reaching, ur stupid is showing.

Nope you are the stupid one. MJ and Shaq were the only two top 10 alltime players Phil Jackson coached. You cant be serious if you believe Pippen is top 10, so quit trying.
:facepalm

[tmacattack33]

Kobe and Pippen are not top 10.

[3ball]

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/14756813/lebloc1.0_standard_400.0.jpg

Lebron blocked tim duncan a better center/power forward THAN ANYONE jordan faced at the pf/c position..



MJ plays volleyball left-handed with Duncan's shot:


https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif



Block AND strip in succession vs. Hakeem:


https://media.giphy.com/media/4397wc00QN3WM/giphy.gif



Block on Hakeem:


https://media.giphy.com/media/Yp2VU3YyDqmZ2/giphy.gif

[riseagainst]

Jordan and Shaq are top 10, but Pippen is not a top 10 player all time.