How would you rank Jordan's and Lebron's Finals Performances?

[dankok8]

It's obvious that the bottom three would be 1996 Jordan, 2007 Lebron, and 2011 Lebron. What about the other ten which are all time great performances?


1991 Jordan
1992 Jordan
1993 Jordan
1997 Jordan
1998 Jordan
2012 Lebron
2013 Lebron
2014 Lebron
2015 Lebron
2016 Lebron


Arrange them from best to worst and try to provide some reasoning.

[TheWinningFam]

2016 Lebron (GOAT comeback hands down)
2013 lebron (Another GOAT come back agianst a GOAT team in the spurs..)
2015 lebron (GOAT level effort with delly as his second option Argubaly should have won mvp)
1998 Jordan

Then idk

[ArbitraryWater]

2016 Lebron (GOAT comeback hands down)
2013 lebron (Another GOAT come back agianst a GOAT team in the spurs..)
2015 lebron (GOAT level effort with delly as his second option Argubaly should have won mvp)
1998 Jordan

Then idk

wtf dude :lol

EDIT: btw OP, wtf happened to hoops nation? admin doesnt give af? all the threads gone?

[feyki]

91
16



93
92




15/12/97



96/13/98

14




11











07

..

[Elosha]

My list, feel free to comment or disagree. Many of these are debatable and interchangeable. :cheers:

1993 - absolute greatest Finals, most points, efficient, all-around greatness, ruthless beauty against a hungry and very talented Suns team.

1991 - beautiful, iconic play, tons of assists and absolute game mastery, all important game-tying shot in game 3, beat Magic another all-time great still at/near his prime.

2016 - amazing come from behind win against best regular season record team. Huge plays on both ends of the floor, back to back 41 point games, triple double game 7, defining moment of career thus far.

1998 - while not statistically the greatest Finals - the grit and determination of Jordan to cap off the 6th title at age 35, beating a Utah team that would have been champion in many other years, and carrying the Bulls in Game 6 with the layup, steal and gamewinner - makes this one legendary.

1992 - if anything this one is underrated. Incredible, dominant, and efficient performance, completely outclassed Drexler, led the way from Game 1 domination to scoring 12 points last 6 minutes of Game 6 and capping off Bulls fourth quarter comeback.

2015 - the overall stats are incredible, although Lebron shot very poorly to achieve his 39 points, which may have been the difference. But he left it all on the floor for the most part, little evidence of quitting or giving up, despite the injuries to his team.

2013 - Great overall performance, especially in Games 6 and 7. Huge second half in game 6, and huge game 7 (although he was given incredibly easy looks, which to his credit, he nailed). Still played very inconsistently and tentatively at times, would have likely lost had Popovich not lost his mind and taken Duncan - his best rebounder - out twice in the last minutes of Game 6.

1997 - impressive overall stats, two game winners, laser-like focus in beating a very dangerous and experienced Jazz team. Domination and clutch play at every turn.

2012 - efficient and dominant performance against a young but very talented OKC squad. Come from behind Finals after dropping game 1. Although on paper Durant came close to equaling him, Lebron clearly controlled and dominated the series.

1996 - MJ's worst Finals, but not too bad overall, and he was still deservedly MVP. Extremely solid in first three games, to take 3-0 lead, destroyed Payton and the Sonics in crucial game three. Missed a lot of easy shots in last three games, his focus seemed to be off. After he won on Father's Day and broke down over the death of his father, it makes one wonder if his mind was partially elsewhere...

2014 -Got destroyed in five games, but with great stats. Still many of his points came in garbage time or when the Spurs were way ahead and simply cruising. Crucially, he came up missing, often during Spurs' big runs. Often appeared to give up early. Deceptive statistics, and was outplayed by Leonard for key stretches.

2007 - Great job of getting to the Finals with weak Cavs team, but completely exposed by the Spurs and swept. Horrible shooting and unable to ever take over.

2011 - Lowest point of Lebron's career thus far. Had every reason to win and completely choked. No excuses. Dallas was rolling and there's no guarantee Heat win even if Lebron plays well, but he didn't play well, by any metric. He shrank on the biggest stage, probably for a variety of complex reasons. But he didn't get it done in any sense of the word.

[SouBeachTalents]

1993 Jordan
1991 Jordan
2016 LeBron
1992 Jordan

1997 Jordan
2012 LeBron
2015 LeBron

2013 LeBron
1998 Jordan
2014 LeBron

[Hey Yo]

2011 - Lowest point of Lebron's career thus far. Had every reason to win and completely choked. No excuses. Dallas was rolling and there's no guarantee Heat win even if Lebron plays well, but he didn't play well, by any metric. He shrank on the biggest stage, probably for a variety of complex reasons. But he didn't get it done in any sense of the word.
Exaggerate much....:oldlol:

Lead the team twice in scoring and added a trip-dub in another game.

18-7-7 on 48% shooting.

[ShawkFactory]

Exaggerate much....:oldlol:

Lead the team twice in scoring and added a trip-dub in another game.

18-7-7 on 48% shooting.
18/7/7 for Lebron fvcking James is not good.

He did NOT play well at all. Like 10 points below his average.

Add in what he did in 4th quarters? When pretty much every game was close?

It blows my mind that some people still try to defend it.

[SouBeachTalents]

18/7/7 for Lebron fvcking James is not good.

He did NOT play well at all. Like 10 points below his average.

Add in what he did in 4th quarters? When pretty much every game was close?

It blows my mind that some people still try to defend it.

Seriously, they just need to accept the L on that one, dude had a WOAT level Finals performance for a player of his caliber. That will always be a black mark on LeBron's brilliant resume

[Elosha]

Exaggerate much....:oldlol:

Lead the team twice in scoring and added a trip-dub in another game.

18-7-7 on 48% shooting.

For a good, but still inferior player, those would be solid, even great numbers. But Lebron is not Pippen, he is Lebron. He choked. There's no way around it. His numbers weren't even as good as they sound when you watch the games. He disappeared for long stretches and was soft and tentative for almost the entire series.

This isn't personal animus against Lebron, if Jordan choked like this, I'd be just as hard on him.

For whom much is given, much is required.

[Hey Yo]

So....by ANY METRIC and NO SENSE IN THE WORD LeBron's:

Leading the team twice in scoring and adding a trip-dub in another game while avg. 18-7-7 on 48% shooting = contributing nothing like that stupidfuk suggested??

[SouBeachTalents]

So....by ANY METRIC and NO SENSE IN THE WORD LeBron's:

Leading the team twice in scoring and adding a trip-dub in another game while avg. 18-7-7 on 48% shooting = contributing nothing like that stupidfuk suggested??

Do you really not think he played poorly that series?

[Elosha]

So....by ANY METRIC and NO SENSE IN THE WORD LeBron's:

Leading the team twice in scoring and adding a trip-dub in another game while avg. 18-7-7 on 48% shooting = contributing nothing like that stupidfuk suggested??

Hey Yo, no need for childish insults and name calling. If you're not mature enough for a reasonable conversation, we can be done.

Yes, by any metric, Lebron's 2011 Finals performance was horrible for a player of his caliber and potential. I've clarified that it would have been good numbers for a lesser player, but unless you want to relegate Lebron to lesser player status, those numbers and his performance suck by his standards.

[Hey Yo]

Do you really not think he played poorly that series?
Do you really think that stats I posted "BY ANY METRIC USED" gave no contribution to the Heat whatsoever?

[Hey Yo]

Hey Yo, no need for childish insults and name calling. If you're not mature enough for a reasonable conversation, we can be done.

Yes, by any metric, Lebron's 2011 Finals performance was horrible for a player of his caliber and potential. I've clarified that it would have been good numbers for a lesser player, but unless you want to relegate Lebron to lesser player status, those numbers and his performance suck by his standards.
You posted that after the fact. I didn't see it. That's why I didn't quote, South Beach when I replied to him

I didn't insult you in my first post.

[tpols]

it's really unfair to lump 96 MJ in w/ 07 and 11 Bron

[SamuraiSWISH]

93 MJ
91 MJ
16 Bron
92 MJ
15 Bron
12 Bron
97 MJ
13 Bron
14 Bron
96 MJ
11 Bron
07 Bron

[sportjames23]

91-98 MJ








Any Finals Bron

[SouBeachTalents]

91-98 MJ








Any Finals Bron

LeBron's Finals this year were easily better than Jordan's '96-'98 Finals, and on par with his '91-'93 Finals

[TheWinningFam]

91-98 MJ








Any Finals Bron

2016 warriors > Any team jordan faced

[ShawkFactory]

91-98 MJ








Any Finals Bron
Stop it douche

[plowking]

16 Bron is the best for me.

[Elosha]

16 Bron is the best for me.

You've got a valid argument, no doubt. To come back against a 73-9 team down 3-1 in the Finals is unprecedented. And obviously he had great overall stats.

Still -- the reason I have it behind a couple of MJ's Finals is:

(1) Golden State really wasn't as good a team as the regular season suggested. Complete loss of focus in the playoffs, up and down performances, lack of killer instinct in the Finals, and Curry played well below his standards, throughout the playoffs and most of all in the Finals. Most stars numbers take a hit, understandably, in the playoffs, but the greatest can often elevate their numbers overall. Curry's inability to do that this year (and also in last season's playoffs) is indicative to me that he's not quite as great as advertised. Streaky, as is Klay, which is not really the mark of an all-time great. And when the best players aren't as good as advertised, the team will not be as good as predicted.

(2) As great as Lebron played overall, I cautiously note that he played fairly mediocre (by his standards) in the three losses. That's NOT to take away from his incredible come from behind greatness in games 5-7, but a better team would have closed the Cavs out with a 3-1 lead. As great as Lebron played in games 5-7, if Curry and Klay could have just played AVERAGE in games 5 - 7, the Cavs would have lost. The Warriors' overall poor play in the last three games is probably a bigger factor as to the Cavs championship than even Lebron's heroics. (And yes, I know the Cavs played great defense overall, but Golden State (Curry especially) choked and missed lots of opens shots they hit all year).

Golden State to me is a bit of an enigma and a case of lost potential. To go 73-9 in the regular season and then 15-9 in the playoffs is wildly inconsistent. Even if they would have beaten the Cavs in 7, I would never rank them as the greatest team. They simply weren't dominant when it really counted. So it's certainly valid to point out that Lebron beat a 73-9 team, but let's not overstate it. OKC had already shown they were highly vulnerable to individual talent, and the Cavs proved the Warriors could choke, lose focus, and blow a lead. I already had alarm bells in my head when Green got himself suspended and Klay spent his time after game 5 mocking Lebron. They literally relaxed and began to strut around and talk trash about one of the best players of all time before they had won. Not a sign of greatness.

[K Xerxes]

Just in terms of level of play and performance:

91-93 MJ
16 LeBron
12 LeBron
97 MJ
15 LeBron
13 LeBron
98 MJ
96 MJ
07 LeBron
11 LeBron

[Da_Realist]

93 MJ
91 MJ
16 Bron
92 MJ
15 Bron
12 Bron
97 MJ
13 Bron
14 Bron
96 MJ
11 Bron
07 Bron

No way is 97 MJ under 15 Lebron. Lebron couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life. Lebron's style accumulates numbers whether he plays well or not. Especially here since Kyrie went down and the Cavs slowed it down and forced Lebron to do everything with no pressure (If he won, great. If he lost, so what? Kyrie was injured.)

Lebron WAS the offense so every possession = some stat.

[Da_Realist]

You've got a valid argument, no doubt. To come back against a 73-9 team down 3-1 in the Finals is unprecedented. And obviously he had great overall stats.

Still -- the reason I have it behind a couple of MJ's Finals is:

(1) Golden State really wasn't as good a team as the regular season suggested. Complete loss of focus in the playoffs, up and down performances, lack of killer instinct in the Finals, and Curry played well below his standards, throughout the playoffs and most of all in the Finals. Most stars numbers take a hit, understandably, in the playoffs, but the greatest can often elevate their numbers overall. Curry's inability to do that this year (and also in last season's playoffs) is indicative to me that he's not quite as great as advertised. Streaky, as is Klay, which is not really the mark of an all-time great. And when the best players aren't as good as advertised, the team will not be as good as predicted.

(2) As great as Lebron played overall, I cautiously note that he played fairly mediocre (by his standards) in the three losses. That's NOT to take away from his incredible come from behind greatness in games 5-7, but a better team would have closed the Cavs out with a 3-1 lead. As great as Lebron played in games 5-7, if Curry and Klay could have just played AVERAGE in games 5 - 7, the Cavs would have lost. The Warriors' overall poor play in the last three games is probably a bigger factor as to the Cavs championship than even Lebron's heroics. (And yes, I know the Cavs played great defense overall, but Golden State (Curry especially) choked and missed lots of opens shots they hit all year).

Golden State to me is a bit of an enigma and a case of lost potential. To go 73-9 in the regular season and then 15-9 in the playoffs is wildly inconsistent. Even if they would have beaten the Cavs in 7, I would never rank them as the greatest team. They simply weren't dominant when it really counted. So it's certainly valid to point out that Lebron beat a 73-9 team, but let's not overstate it. OKC had already shown they were highly vulnerable to individual talent, and the Cavs proved the Warriors could choke, lose focus, and blow a lead. I already had alarm bells in my head when Green got himself suspended and Klay spent his time after game 5 mocking Lebron. They literally relaxed and began to strut around and talk trash about one of the best players of all time before they had won. Not a sign of greatness.

True. GSW was not an all time great team. If they were, they wouldn't have lost to Cleveland or come close to losing to OKC. They were a good team that hid their flaws during the regular season. No all time great team would have lost to the 16 Cavs.

This is why all the old timers were snapping at GSW even while they were rattling off 20 game win streaks. They knew.

[Dragonyeuw]

2016 warriors > Any team jordan faced

The Warriors team that blew through the regular season wasn't playing at nearly that level in playoffs, notably Curry. Take them and put them back in the 90's against the 92/93 Knicks, with Ewing protecting the rim, Oakley and Mason playing intimidator roles, and gritty defenders like Starks, Blackman,Wilkins, and Harper under those rules, and Curry folds up in the fetal position. Considering he failed the test of what passes for 'physical play' in the finals. The Warriors are very much a product of modern rules and the over-infatuation with the 3pointer. There's a reason the 'cranky' old-timers were saying Curry wouldn't be as successful against the more physical style of the late 80's/early-mid 90's. Sure they'd blow most teams off the floor during the regular season with the 3point barrage, but match them against really physical teams or teams with superior individual talent( MJ, Durant/Westbrook, Bron, Kyrie) and see what happens. Cleveland in the final 3 games simply built on what OKC has already exposed in the conference finals.

[Dragonyeuw]

You've got a valid argument, no doubt. To come back against a 73-9 team down 3-1 in the Finals is unprecedented. And obviously he had great overall stats.

Still -- the reason I have it behind a couple of MJ's Finals is:

(1) Golden State really wasn't as good a team as the regular season suggested. Complete loss of focus in the playoffs, up and down performances, lack of killer instinct in the Finals, and Curry played well below his standards, throughout the playoffs and most of all in the Finals. Most stars numbers take a hit, understandably, in the playoffs, but the greatest can often elevate their numbers overall. Curry's inability to do that this year (and also in last season's playoffs) is indicative to me that he's not quite as great as advertised. Streaky, as is Klay, which is not really the mark of an all-time great. And when the best players aren't as good as advertised, the team will not be as good as predicted.

(2) As great as Lebron played overall, I cautiously note that he played fairly mediocre (by his standards) in the three losses. That's NOT to take away from his incredible come from behind greatness in games 5-7, but a better team would have closed the Cavs out with a 3-1 lead. As great as Lebron played in games 5-7, if Curry and Klay could have just played AVERAGE in games 5 - 7, the Cavs would have lost. The Warriors' overall poor play in the last three games is probably a bigger factor as to the Cavs championship than even Lebron's heroics. (And yes, I know the Cavs played great defense overall, but Golden State (Curry especially) choked and missed lots of opens shots they hit all year).

Golden State to me is a bit of an enigma and a case of lost potential. To go 73-9 in the regular season and then 15-9 in the playoffs is wildly inconsistent. Even if they would have beaten the Cavs in 7, I would never rank them as the greatest team. They simply weren't dominant when it really counted. So it's certainly valid to point out that Lebron beat a 73-9 team, but let's not overstate it. OKC had already shown they were highly vulnerable to individual talent, and the Cavs proved the Warriors could choke, lose focus, and blow a lead. I already had alarm bells in my head when Green got himself suspended and Klay spent his time after game 5 mocking Lebron. They literally relaxed and began to strut around and talk trash about one of the best players of all time before they had won. Not a sign of greatness.


Good post.

[bond10]

You've got a valid argument, no doubt. To come back against a 73-9 team down 3-1 in the Finals is unprecedented. And obviously he had great overall stats.

Still -- the reason I have it behind a couple of MJ's Finals is:

(1) Golden State really wasn't as good a team as the regular season suggested. Complete loss of focus in the playoffs, up and down performances, lack of killer instinct in the Finals, and Curry played well below his standards, throughout the playoffs and most of all in the Finals. Most stars numbers take a hit, understandably, in the playoffs, but the greatest can often elevate their numbers overall. Curry's inability to do that this year (and also in last season's playoffs) is indicative to me that he's not quite as great as advertised. Streaky, as is Klay, which is not really the mark of an all-time great. And when the best players aren't as good as advertised, the team will not be as good as predicted.

(2) As great as Lebron played overall, I cautiously note that he played fairly mediocre (by his standards) in the three losses. That's NOT to take away from his incredible come from behind greatness in games 5-7, but a better team would have closed the Cavs out with a 3-1 lead. As great as Lebron played in games 5-7, if Curry and Klay could have just played AVERAGE in games 5 - 7, the Cavs would have lost. The Warriors' overall poor play in the last three games is probably a bigger factor as to the Cavs championship than even Lebron's heroics. (And yes, I know the Cavs played great defense overall, but Golden State (Curry especially) choked and missed lots of opens shots they hit all year).

Golden State to me is a bit of an enigma and a case of lost potential. To go 73-9 in the regular season and then 15-9 in the playoffs is wildly inconsistent. Even if they would have beaten the Cavs in 7, I would never rank them as the greatest team. They simply weren't dominant when it really counted. So it's certainly valid to point out that Lebron beat a 73-9 team, but let's not overstate it. OKC had already shown they were highly vulnerable to individual talent, and the Cavs proved the Warriors could choke, lose focus, and blow a lead. I already had alarm bells in my head when Green got himself suspended and Klay spent his time after game 5 mocking Lebron. They literally relaxed and began to strut around and talk trash about one of the best players of all time before they had won. Not a sign of greatness.

This. :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

2016 LeBron
1991 Jordan
1993 Jordan
2015 LeBron
1992 Jordan
2012 LeBron
1997 Jordan
2013 LeBron
1998 Jordan
1996 Jordan
2007 LeBron
2011 LeBron

[dankok8]

Elosha good post...

HOWEVER

I think calling GS not an all time great team because they were pushed to 7 games by the Thunder and ultimately lost the title to the Cavs is not a fair assessment.

First of all the OKC Thunder were on pace to win 59 or 60 games with Durant in the line-up ... 52-20 with him, 3-7 without him. They also posted a really good SRS of better than +7. Many champions in the past decade were not more dominant than this Thunder team. The Cavaliers also had Kyrie miss significant time and were on pace for 59 wins in games after his comeback. They had a top 5 all time player in Lebron James plus Kyrie who simply went berserk and they clicked as a team in the playoffs going 12-2 in the East. Sometimes players and teams get hot.

Of course the untimely suspension of Draymond Green and injuries to Bogut and Igoudala hurt the Warriors chances as well. With GS up 3-1 in the finals, if they closed it out in 5 games there would be MANY PEOPLE on here calling them the greatest team of all time and the OKC comeback would arguably add to their legacy, not diminish it. It would be a tiny blip in an Armageddon level season.

Besides let us not act like an elite team cannot lose a few consecutive games. The 1996 Bulls lost two straight to the Sonics with MJ struggling badly shooting the ball and would have lost a third if Rodman didn't completely destroy the glass. It is rarely ever easy even for the best of the best.

Basically the Warriors lost due to a combination of factors:

- Lebron and Kyrie exploding
- untimely suspension/injuries
- Curry underperforming
- fatigue


They are still an all time great team because if even one of these factors wasn't present they would have won. As are many others than never won titles by the way such as the 1962 Lakers, 1972 Bucks, 1973 Celtics, most runners up in the 1980's etc. Many of those teams would beat the champs in many other years.

[eeeeeebro]

a good game from lebron in finals 40 points... Jordan AVERAGED 40+ per game

[FireDavidKahn]

Going by stats? Others had better Finals
Going by context? LBJ just put on the GOAT Finals performance

[riseagainst]

Lebron 2016
Jordan 93
Jordan 91
Lebron 2013
Lebron 2012

[ShawkFactory]

Going by stats? Others had better Finals
Going by context? LBJ just put on the GOAT Finals performance
No he didn't. Context also tells you that Lebron underperformed in 2 of the first 4 games, which helped get them into the 3-1 hole in the first place.

Now, he went berserk to make up for it, but that shouldn't be valued over a guy who went berserk from the start.

[Da_Realist]

Elosha good post...

HOWEVER

I think calling GS not an all time great team because they were pushed to 7 games by the Thunder and ultimately lost the title to the Cavs is not a fair assessment.

First of all the OKC Thunder were on pace to win 59 or 60 games with Durant in the line-up ... 52-20 with him, 3-7 without him. They also posted a really good SRS of better than +7. Many champions in the past decade were not more dominant than this Thunder team. The Cavaliers also had Kyrie miss significant time and were on pace for 59 wins in games after his comeback. They had a top 5 all time player in Lebron James plus Kyrie who simply went berserk and they clicked as a team in the playoffs going 12-2 in the East. Sometimes players and teams get hot.

Of course the untimely suspension of Draymond Green and injuries to Bogut and Igoudala hurt the Warriors chances as well. With GS up 3-1 in the finals, if they closed it out in 5 games there would be MANY PEOPLE on here calling them the greatest team of all time and the OKC comeback would arguably add to their legacy, not diminish it. It would be a tiny blip in an Armageddon level season.

Besides let us not act like an elite team cannot lose a few consecutive games. The 1996 Bulls lost two straight to the Sonics with MJ struggling badly shooting the ball and would have lost a third if Rodman didn't completely destroy the glass. It is rarely ever easy even for the best of the best.

Basically the Warriors lost due to a combination of factors:

- Lebron and Kyrie exploding
- untimely suspension/injuries
- Curry underperforming
- fatigue


They are still an all time great team because if even one of these factors wasn't present they would have won. As are many others than never won titles by the way such as the 1962 Lakers, 1972 Bucks, 1973 Celtics, most runners up in the 1980's etc. Many of those teams would beat the champs in many other years.

I disagree. OKC was not a juggernaut. Their win total (as well as GSW's) says more about the league than how great they were. They almost beat GSW because they bullied GSW. OKC lost because they didn't know how to close them out. OKC was not a smart team. They made many, many brain farts that would have done them in against a lot of "lesser" teams than GSW. But the NBA is about matchups. OKC had a physical advantage over GSW and they were almost able to win because of it.

No team was able to bully GSW in the regular season and no team had two weeks to prepare for their unique and deadly offensive attack. The playoffs gave OKC and Cleveland a chance to study tape and focus on the weaknesses found there. More teams than you realize would have done the same thing.

GSW's management recognized the writing on the wall because the owner admitted it publicly. He knew they had to go back to the drawing board. The system was exposed. That's why they didn't hesitate to gut the team. Durant is good but you don't gut a 73 win team you think is poised to rattle off 3 or 4 titles for him.

[FireDavidKahn]

No he didn't. Context also tells you that Lebron underperformed in 2 of the first 4 games, which helped get them into the 3-1 hole in the first place.

Now, he went berserk to make up for it, but that shouldn't be valued over a guy who went berserk from the start.
LBJ did something no one else in history did and made the greatest comeback ever:rolleyes:

[ArbitraryWater]

Elosha good post...

HOWEVER

I think calling GS not an all time great team because they were pushed to 7 games by the Thunder and ultimately lost the title to the Cavs is not a fair assessment.

First of all the OKC Thunder were on pace to win 59 or 60 games with Durant in the line-up ... 52-20 with him, 3-7 without him. They also posted a really good SRS of better than +7. Many champions in the past decade were not more dominant than this Thunder team. The Cavaliers also had Kyrie miss significant time and were on pace for 59 wins in games after his comeback. They had a top 5 all time player in Lebron James plus Kyrie who simply went berserk and they clicked as a team in the playoffs going 12-2 in the East. Sometimes players and teams get hot.

Of course the untimely suspension of Draymond Green and injuries to Bogut and Igoudala hurt the Warriors chances as well. With GS up 3-1 in the finals, if they closed it out in 5 games there would be MANY PEOPLE on here calling them the greatest team of all time and the OKC comeback would arguably add to their legacy, not diminish it. It would be a tiny blip in an Armageddon level season.

Besides let us not act like an elite team cannot lose a few consecutive games. The 1996 Bulls lost two straight to the Sonics with MJ struggling badly shooting the ball and would have lost a third if Rodman didn't completely destroy the glass. It is rarely ever easy even for the best of the best.

Basically the Warriors lost due to a combination of factors:

- Lebron and Kyrie exploding
- untimely suspension/injuries
- Curry underperforming
- fatigue


They are still an all time great team because if even one of these factors wasn't present they would have won. As are many others than never won titles by the way such as the 1962 Lakers, 1972 Bucks, 1973 Celtics, most runners up in the 1980's etc. Many of those teams would beat the champs in many other years.

:cheers:

According to these MJ loons, 73 wins completely misrepresented GSW, but 55 does OKC just fine...












































Weirdos.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

All I know is beating a 73 win team while coming back from 3-1 down in the series putting up 30/11/9/2/2 with a broken wrist is the GOAT performance.

[dankok8]

No he didn't. Context also tells you that Lebron underperformed in 2 of the first 4 games, which helped get them into the 3-1 hole in the first place.

Now, he went berserk to make up for it, but that shouldn't be valued over a guy who went berserk from the start.

I couldn't disagree more. The pressure to perform as well as the commitment of the other team is far far higher in the last three games of a playoff series (in this case also ELIMINATION games) then the first three games. If Lebron had the same overall statline but while sweeping his opponent, it would be far less impressive.

[dankok8]

I disagree. OKC was not a juggernaut. Their win total (as well as GSW's) says more about the league than how great they were. They almost beat GSW because they bullied GSW. OKC lost because they didn't know how to close them out. OKC was not a smart team. They made many, many brain farts that would have done them in against a lot of "lesser" teams than GSW. But the NBA is about matchups. OKC had a physical advantage over GSW and they were almost able to win because of it.

No team was able to bully GSW in the regular season and no team had two weeks to prepare for their unique and deadly offensive attack. The playoffs gave OKC and Cleveland a chance to study tape and focus on the weaknesses found there. More teams than you realize would have done the same thing.

GSW's management recognized the writing on the wall because the owner admitted it publicly. He knew they had to go back to the drawing board. The system was exposed. That's why they didn't hesitate to gut the team. Durant is good but you don't gut a 73 win team you think is poised to rattle off 3 or 4 titles for him.

The physicality and lack of size with Golden State are overblown arguments. When they play a tradional lineup with Green at the 4 and Bogut at the 5, they are as big and as physical as any team in the league. Speights and Ezeli are hardly small too and even their guards like Klay, Iggy and Livingston play big.

My point is...

if Lebron plays on his average level

OR

if Kyrie plays on his average level (as opposed to way above it)

OR

if Curry plays at his average level (as opposed to way below it)

OR

if Green never gets suspended

OR

if Bogut and Iggy never get hurt


... odds are high that Golden State wins the series! It took a combination of all of the above factors for the Cavs to beat the Warriors.

[Da_Realist]

The physicality and lack of size with Golden State are overblown arguments. When they play a tradional lineup with Green at the 4 and Bogut at the 5, they are as big and as physical as any team in the league. Speights and Ezeli are hardly small too and even their guards like Klay, Iggy and Livingston play big.

My point is...

if Lebron plays on his average level

OR

if Kyrie plays on his average level (as opposed to way above it)

OR

if Curry plays at his average level (as opposed to way below it)

OR

if Green never gets suspended

OR

if Bogut and Iggy never get hurt


... odds are high that Golden State wins the series! It took a combination of all of the above factors for the Cavs to beat the Warriors.

I agree. My point is, win or lose, they were not an all time great team. Great team, not all time great. I was saying that even when they were dominating the regular season. I was in the "I agree with Pippen. 96 Bulls would win in 4 or 5 games" camp. I would have felt the same way even if they had beaten Cleveland, which they could have easily done. OKC and Cleveland laid out a blueprint that many other teams would have been successful with against GSW.

[Da_Realist]

How many times did GSW lose by 20+ points?

And OKC, a team Durant no longer believed in, was four minutes away from beating GSW in six games. Just saying.

[ArbitraryWater]

The crazy thing is, if there was one star player injury this finals, it was Love.. out for one game, and only playing 20 minutes the one before + after that...

AND LeBron overcame a Irving injury in the game 6 second half....

it really cant be touched by any MJ series, given these sidenotes.

Pippen was never hobbling out there for an entire half '91-'93.

At that point, Bron rolled off like 20 straight pts... crazy

[Young X]

The crazy thing is, if there was one star player injury this finals, it was Love.. out for one game, and only playing 20 minutes the one before + after that...

AND LeBron overcame a Irving injury in the game 6 second half....

it really cant be touched by any MJ series, given these sidenotes.

Pippen was never hobbling out there for an entire half '91-'93.

At that point, Bron rolled off like 20 straight pts... crazyYou have been saying some crazy shit ever since the finals ended.

"Can't be touched by any MJ series". How could you say something that stupid. Have you even seen those MJ finals series?

[warriorfan]

LeBron's 2016 Finals performance was tainted by the fact that Golden State's 3 best defenders (Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green, and Andrew Bogut) were out of commission either due to injury or suspension under dubious circumstances.

It is being disingenuous to label the Cavaliers as beating a "73 win team" when Warrior team in the Finals was a shell of their former self for reasons previously mentioned.

[dankok8]

I agree. My point is, win or lose, they were not an all time great team. Great team, not all time great. I was saying that even when they were dominating the regular season. I was in the "I agree with Pippen. 96 Bulls would win in 4 or 5 games" camp. I would have felt the same way even if they had beaten Cleveland, which they could have easily done. OKC and Cleveland laid out a blueprint that many other teams would have been successful with against GSW.

It proves they are an all time great team...

If it took a very good Cleveland team all those factors going in their favor to win game 7 by one or two possessions and take out this Warriors team, it shows how good they really are. Remember prior to them choking and losing the finals, there were almost daily "2016 Warriors vs. GOAT team" threads and the Warriors were getting lots of love. You can't just retroactively say they aren't that great. Maybe you thought they weren't THAT GREAT (you may well be right!) but you were in the minority.

[Da_Realist]

It proves they are an all time great team...

If it took a very good Cleveland team all those factors going in their favor to win game 7 by one or two possessions and take out this Warriors team, it shows how good they really are. Remember prior to them choking and losing the finals, there were almost daily "2016 Warriors vs. GOAT team" threads and the Warriors were getting lots of love. You can't just retroactively say they aren't that great. Maybe you thought they weren't THAT GREAT (you may well be right!) but you were in the minority.

That's because everyone was blinded by their win total and not matchups. It's always, always, always about matchups. A 73 win team doesn't automatically beat a 57 win team just because they won 73 games. The team that wins is the team that exploits matchup advantages. That's why it's silly to say a team is the greatest because they won X amount of games. This season proved that.

I thought all the "Curry would beat teams by shooting from halfcourt" threads were silly. That's not how playoff games are won. Defense and rebounding, coaching and adjustments start to matter in the playoffs in a way they hardly do in the regular season.

[dankok8]

That's because everyone was blinded by their win total and not matchups. It's always, always, always about matchups. A 73 win team doesn't automatically beat a 57 win team just because they won 73 games. The team that wins is the team that exploits matchup advantages. That's why it's silly to say a team is the greatest because they won X amount of games. This season proved that.

I thought all the "Curry would beat teams by shooting from halfcourt" threads were silly. That's not how playoff games are won. Defense and rebounding, coaching and adjustments start to matter in the playoffs in a way they hardly do in the regular season.

I agree it's about match-ups. You can't compare teams in a vacuum.

Still they were considered a GOAT-level team.

[j3lademaster]

Exaggerate much....:oldlol:

Lead the team twice in scoring and added a trip-dub in another game.

18-7-7 on 48% shooting.Yeah, I think 18/7/7 with good defense is a pretty good series, but we're comparing top 3 quality type players... so that performance is really bad in relativity. That was a Draymond Green type series, not close to good enough for Lebron James.

[j3lademaster]

1. Jordan 93
2. Lebron 16
3. Jordan 91
4. Jordan 92
5. Lebron 12
6. Lebron 15
7. Jordan 98
8. Lebron 13
9. Jordan 97
10. Lebron 14
11. Lebron 07
12. Jordan 96





13. Lebron 11

[ArbitraryWater]

You have been saying some crazy shit ever since the finals ended.

"Can't be touched by any MJ series". How could you say something that stupid. Have you even seen those MJ finals series?

Yup... all of them (early ones, from the second three peat only the iconic games).... as far as level of play, control of the game, overcoming the odds goes...

Bron was out there with his sidekick being reduced to decoy for the entire second half of an elimination game...

an injury which greatly benefited GSW, they could have won the title right there on the strength of that... Irving only made one more shot.

[livinglegend]

1. 2016 Lebron












2. who cares

[livinglegend]

The crazy thing is, if there was one star player injury this finals, it was Love.. out for one game, and only playing 20 minutes the one before + after that...

AND LeBron overcame a Irving injury in the game 6 second half....

it really cant be touched by any MJ series, given these sidenotes.

Pippen was never hobbling out there for an entire half '91-'93.

At that point, Bron rolled off like 20 straight pts... crazy
:applause: :applause: :applause:

People forget Love and Kyrie's injuries.

[Smoke117]

For a good, but still inferior player, those would be solid, even great numbers. But Lebron is not Pippen, he is Lebron. He choked. There's no way around it. His numbers weren't even as good as they sound when you watch the games. He disappeared for long stretches and was soft and tentative for almost the entire series.

This isn't personal animus against Lebron, if Jordan choked like this, I'd be just as hard on him.

For whom much is given, much is required.

Don't group Pippen with Lebron for that 2011 performance...Pippen gave you all world defense...Lebron didn't.

[Elosha]

Dankok8 - just skimmed through this thread again and saw some of your responses. Good overall points, and I need to clarify that I do think Golden State was a "great" team but not all-time great. I'm sorry but 15-9 during playoffs is never going to cut it. Even if they beat the Cavs in 7, I would not think they were a truly transcendent team. If they'd won the championship and lost 2 to 4 games at most, I'd say they were arguably the greatest team of all time. OKC was very good this year, but they aren't an all-time great team either. The Cavs, OKC and GS are all elite/great teams, and the Spurs were also close to elite. But none of them are transcendent historically, not even the Warriors.

Consider this. GS failed to sweep a single round. A team that wins that many games should at least sweep the opening round. And yes, I realize Curry was injured for much of the first two rounds, but this a 73 win team. And they really didn't even play well in the first two rounds, they could have easily lost other games.

As to Lebron, one of your posts puzzled me a bit. You said it was more impressive for Lebron to average the same stats he did for 7 games rather than if he averaged them for a sweep. I do understand your point, which is Lebron had the opportunity to play extremely well in the final 3 games, which was truly transcendent because of the pressure/higher stakes, etc., etc. But the opposite side of your analysis is that you're basically giving Lebron bonus points for playing fairly poorly in 3 of the first 4 games. If Lebron had the same overall stats for the first four games, 29/11/8, and the Cavs swept, a big part of the reason would be because Lebron played far better in this hypothetical than he actually did in the first four games of the actual series. Lebron didn't put up nearly as good of numbers over the first four games in comparison to his overall Finals average. I agree with you that it's better to turn it on late and come from behind than to never play well at all, but one of the reasons they were down 3-1 is because of Lebron was very quiet for games 1, 2, and 4. If Golden State had kept their mental edge, it would have been over quickly. And that's why several of Jordan's Finals performances are better statistically and impact-wise -- because he was consistently great throughout the series and never gave the other team the opportunity to get a huge lead.

Lastly, everyone is so hyped about Lebron's 2016 performance and legitimately so. But if it weren't for Kyrie Irving's incredible performance as the number two player, Cavs also would have lost. It was Kyrie who was taking and hitting the biggest shots in game 7. And I do find it interesting that for the two huge fourth quarter plays in game 7 -- right before Lebron's block and Kyrie's go ahead three, in both situations Lebron was completely out of the play on offense, hidden on the baseline corner nowhere near the action, nowhere near a rebounding position, and really having no impact on offense. He was just standing there hoping Kyrie would hit the shot. Indeed, if Lebron HADN'T been so far out of position on offense right before he started the chase down block, he wouldn't have been able to catch up to Andre and make the play. Here are the exact moments of the two plays in question. It's easy to see that Lebron was nowhere close to being part of the offense on these critical possessions and that the plays were (rightfully) being called for Irving.

https://youtu.be/RBQ_oaUVNtc?t=480

https://youtu.be/RBQ_oaUVNtc?t=633

Now I'm not trying to discount Lebron's block or claim it was anything other than perhaps the most important block ever --- but it's noteworthy that it was Lebron's passiveness on offense and being way out of position that put him just close enough to catch up with the play of the defensive end to make the block. If he would have gone for the rebound aggressively, he'd probably not have enough time to catch up to the play to make the block. And the overall point is that as great as Lebron was, he needed Irving's ability in the clutch to win, as seen in the second clip. If Irving plays just a little worse, and if Curry plays just a little better, the Cavs probably don't even get to a game 7.

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Jordan 93
2. Lebron 16
3. Jordan 91
4. Jordan 92
5. Lebron 12
6. Lebron 15
7. Jordan 98
8. Lebron 13
9. Jordan 97
10. Lebron 14
11. Lebron 07
12. Jordan 96





13. Lebron 11

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Don't group Pippen with Lebron for that 2011 performance...Pippen gave you all world defense...Lebron didn't.

Agreed. First 3peat Pippen's Finals > 2011 LeBron's

[Elosha]

Don't group Pippen with Lebron for that 2011 performance...Pippen gave you all world defense...Lebron didn't.

Good point, and I'm not trying to devalue Pippen. Starting in 89, I knew he was on his way to being something special, but I would never have believed how incredible of a two way player he would become. He's arguably one of the first links to the point-forward that Lebron has now revolutionized. Scottie could play well against anyone, in any era, including Lebron. He was arguably even more athletic than Lebron; he had equivalent speed, almost as good a leaper off of one foot, and a better leaper off two.

And I agree that he was outstanding defensively particularly off the ball, trapping, weakside help, etc. He was very good at one on one defense, but just a tad slow on his lateral movements. Still, overall a better defensive player than Lebron.

I still can't put Pippen in the same class as Lebron however. Lebron's biggest advantage is simply being a different class of offensive production. Say what you will about Lebron's offensive skillset, or what he gets away with, he still produces at an all-time scoring clip and much better than Scottie overall. I expect his overall numbers will continue to decline however, as he ages. He'll probably end his career averaging around 25-26 ppg if he plays until he's 37-38 as he recently indicated.

[dankok8]

Dankok8 - just skimmed through this thread again and saw some of your responses. Good overall points, and I need to clarify that I do think Golden State was a "great" team but not all-time great. I'm sorry but 15-9 during playoffs is never going to cut it. Even if they beat the Cavs in 7, I would not think they were a truly transcendent team. If they'd won the championship and lost 2 to 4 games at most, I'd say they were arguably the greatest team of all time. OKC was very good this year, but they aren't an all-time great team either. The Cavs, OKC and GS are all elite/great teams, and the Spurs were also close to elite. But none of them are transcendent historically, not even the Warriors.

Consider this. GS failed to sweep a single round. A team that wins that many games should at least sweep the opening round. And yes, I realize Curry was injured for much of the first two rounds, but this a 73 win team. And they really didn't even play well in the first two rounds, they could have easily lost other games.

As to Lebron, one of your posts puzzled me a bit. You said it was more impressive for Lebron to average the same stats he did for 7 games rather than if he averaged them for a sweep. I do understand your point, which is Lebron had the opportunity to play extremely well in the final 3 games, which was truly transcendent because of the pressure/higher stakes, etc., etc. But the opposite side of your analysis is that you're basically giving Lebron bonus points for playing fairly poorly in 3 of the first 4 games. If Lebron had the same overall stats for the first four games, 29/11/8, and the Cavs swept, a big part of the reason would be because Lebron played far better in this hypothetical than he actually did in the first four games of the actual series. Lebron didn't put up nearly as good of numbers over the first four games in comparison to his overall Finals average. I agree with you that it's better to turn it on late and come from behind than to never play well at all, but one of the reasons they were down 3-1 is because of Lebron was very quiet for games 1, 2, and 4. If Golden State had kept their mental edge, it would have been over quickly. And that's why several of Jordan's Finals performances are better statistically and impact-wise -- because he was consistently great throughout the series and never gave the other team the opportunity to get a huge lead.

Lastly, everyone is so hyped about Lebron's 2016 performance and legitimately so. But if it weren't for Kyrie Irving's incredible performance as the number two player, Cavs also would have lost. It was Kyrie who was taking and hitting the biggest shots in game 7. And I do find it interesting that for the two huge fourth quarter plays in game 7 -- right before Lebron's block and Kyrie's go ahead three, in both situations Lebron was completely out of the play on offense, hidden on the baseline corner nowhere near the action, nowhere near a rebounding position, and really having no impact on offense. He was just standing there hoping Kyrie would hit the shot. Indeed, if Lebron HADN'T been so far out of position on offense right before he started the chase down block, he wouldn't have been able to catch up to Andre and make the play. Here are the exact moments of the two plays in question. It's easy to see that Lebron was nowhere close to being part of the offense on these critical possessions and that the plays were (rightfully) being called for Irving.

https://youtu.be/RBQ_oaUVNtc?t=480

https://youtu.be/RBQ_oaUVNtc?t=633

Now I'm not trying to discount Lebron's block or claim it was anything other than perhaps the most important block ever --- but it's noteworthy that it was Lebron's passiveness on offense and being way out of position that put him just close enough to catch up with the play of the defensive end to make the block. If he would have gone for the rebound aggressively, he'd probably not have enough time to catch up to the play to make the block. And the overall point is that as great as Lebron was, he needed Irving's ability in the clutch to win, as seen in the second clip. If Irving plays just a little worse, and if Curry plays just a little better, the Cavs probably don't even get to a game 7.

I can't agree with saying that the Warriors are not historically transcendent. They won 73 games and posted an SRS of above +10 which is a true indicator of dominance even more so than W/L record. That SRS alone puts them in rarified air alongside the 1992/1996/1997 Bulls, 1972 Lakers, 1971/1972 Bucks, and their own 2015 Warriors as the only teams to register a +10 or better.

I don't know why you say their play in the first two rounds was underwhelming. Despite Curry playing a total of 38 minutes in the series, the Warriors annihilated the Rockets. They had a single loss by 1 point and four wins by 26 points, 9 points, 27 points, and 33 points. That's as good of a 1st round blowout as any I've seen.

Against the Blazers they lost one game by 12 points but had wins by 12 points, 11 points, 7 points (in OT), and 4 points. The 12-point win doesn't tell the whole story because the Warriors were up by 20+ points early in the 4th quarter in Game 1. And until Game 4 they were without their best player once again.

It's fair to say that Steph is worth at least 10-12 wins for that team and that his absence fatigued the rest of the squad and made them more vulnerable later in the playoffs.

You are right that if Kyrie plays worse, Cavs lose. If Steph plays better, Cavs lose. May I add... if Green doesn't get suspended, Cavs lose. If Bogut and Iggy don't get hurt, Cavs lose. If Curry was healthy all playoffs and Warriors are better rested, Cavs lose. If Lebron himself plays his average (26/7/7) as opposed to transcendent, Cavs lose.

That's why Warriors are a GOAT-level team. It took five or six factors going against them for them to lose a seven game series by one or two possessions against a Cavs team that you acknowledged is elite. OKC and the Cavs are not all time great teams but they could challenge for a championship just about any other year in recent memory.

As for Lebron's performance, if he put up 30/11/9 in the first four games and the Cavs swept their opponent it would not be as impressive as the actual scenario averaging 25/11/8 for first four games (going 1-3) and then 36/11/10 for three straight wins to come back and win 4-3. The total series average is 30/11/9 either way but there is the the additional context of performing in massive fashion in elimination games. In most eyes, three straight elimination games averaging 36/11/10 are far more impressive than four straight non-pressure games averaging 30/11/9. Since the bottom line is winning the series, the first four games don't factor in much.

[ShawkFactory]

LeBron's 2016 Finals performance was tainted by the fact that Golden State's 3 best defenders (Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green, and Andrew Bogut) were out of commission either due to injury or suspension under dubious circumstances.

It is being disingenuous to label the Cavaliers as beating a "73 win team" when Warrior team in the Finals was a shell of their former self for reasons previously mentioned.
Were they "out of commission"? The whole series?

..or 1 game apiece?

EDIT: sorry, 2 games for Bogut. Who I'm pretty sure you called garbage during the regular season (along with every other player on the team) when steph was doing his thing.

You and Simon would get along really well in real life.

[Dragonyeuw]

That's because everyone was blinded by their win total and not matchups. It's always, always, always about matchups. A 73 win team doesn't automatically beat a 57 win team just because they won 73 games. The team that wins is the team that exploits matchup advantages. That's why it's silly to say a team is the greatest because they won X amount of games. This season proved that.

I thought all the "Curry would beat teams by shooting from halfcourt" threads were silly. That's not how playoff games are won. Defense and rebounding, coaching and adjustments start to matter in the playoffs in a way they hardly do in the regular season.

That's because alot of people operate using simply logic like A>B and B>C, so A>C when basketball has so many more dynamics to it, like you said matchups play a huge role. What we basically learned this offseason is that Golden State and OKC were not '16 games' apart in terms of which team is better.They were very closely matched that eventually went GS's way because Westbrook and Durant reverted to 'dumb-ball' which they had been prone to do all season long. From a talent and matchup standpoint it was proven they're on par.

But then, this is the same forum that have certain people equating the 93 Bulls with Jordan and 94 Bulls without him because the regular season wins were 57 to 55.

[Elosha]

That's because alot of people operate using simply logic like A>B and B>C, so A>C when basketball has so many more dynamics to it, like you said matchups play a huge role. What we basically learned this offseason is that Golden State and OKC were not '16 games' apart in terms of which team is better.They were very closely matched that eventually went GS's way because Westbrook and Durant reverted to 'dumb-ball' which they had been prone to do all season long. From a talent and matchup standpoint it was proven they're on par.

But then, this is the same forum that have certain people equating the 93 Bulls with Jordan and 94 Bulls without him because the regular season wins were 57 to 55.

Agree to some extent on the bold point above. But I must point out if Thompson doesn't go bananas in game 6 on the road, along with Curry's great game 6, OKC would still have won. Yes, OKC made lots of mistakes in games 5 -7, but the Warriors did come up big when it counted. Why they couldn't act with the same fortitude against the Cavs is a bit of a mystery...

[guy]

93
92
91
16
12
97
13
98
15
14
96
07
11

[feyki]

If Lebron played like 12 finals and Cavs won . I would take 15 Lebron as his best finals . Beat or eliminated by Opp , doesn't matter . Lebron's defence and rim protection put him on the same level*as First 3peat of MJ . That was Ben Wallace defence w/out pivotal rebounding .

I'm sure , 91 Jordan or 16 Lebron will be remembered as one of the greatest ever .

[Dragonyeuw]

Agree to some extent on the bold point above. But I must point out if Thompson doesn't go bananas in game 6 on the road, along with Curry's great game 6, OKC would still have won. Yes, OKC made lots of mistakes in games 5 -7, but the Warriors did come up big when it counted. Why they couldn't act with the same fortitude against the Cavs is a bit of a mystery...

Yes, it took that combo of Klay and Steph playing out of their minds for them to squeeze that out. OKC wins if Durant and Westbrook simply don't fcuk it up even with Klay doing what he did.

[Da_Realist]

Yes, it took that combo of Klay and Steph playing out of their minds for them to squeeze that out. OKC wins if Durant and Westbrook simply don't fcuk it up even with Klay doing what he did.

True

[Da_Realist]

9 losses by an average of 15 points. They were blown out two straight games by two different teams. Great regular season team. Average playoff team. Come on now. The regular season used to prepare teams for the playoffs but now teams don't care. It showed, too. Isiah Thomas complained all season that high schoolers played better defense than these teams did during the reg season.

[LeBird]

Anyone that doesn't have LeBron 2016 as the best needs to get their account deleted and submitted to a psychiatric hospital with padded rooms.

[Elosha]

Anyone that doesn't have LeBron 2016 as the best needs to get their account deleted and submitted to a psychiatric hospital with padded rooms.

Nah...sorry. Lebron's Finals this year is a plausible candidate but hardly the only one.

[ArbitraryWater]

You are right that if Kyrie plays worse, Cavs lose. If Steph plays better, Cavs lose. May I add... if Green doesn't get suspended, Cavs lose. If Bogut and Iggy don't get hurt, Cavs lose. If Curry was healthy all playoffs and Warriors are better rested, Cavs lose. If Lebron himself plays his average (26/7/7) as opposed to transcendent, Cavs lose.

alot of this is BS... and the bolded is incredibly stupid.

GSW would suddenly win when 12 mpg Bogut with a negative net rating plays in game 6 or 7?

The Iggy mention makes you look even dumber :biggums: Iggy was hurt as long as Irving was....

Curry WAS healthy... Curry was fatiqued like everyone else at that point...

some of you folks and the excuses you go to :wtf: weird bunch of guys

So, Steph becoming a better player, creating a fantasy basically, is a factor for you that went against GSW? Lol.. thats just the leader they have! Green is a hot head, and hes part of their team... youre trying to ignore weaknesses, but thats an individual weakness, and it hurt their team.... its not a once in a lifetime factor going against them.. Green was on the edge of suspension the whole playoffs.

LeBron is a transcendent player so he plays transcendent... surprise surprise.

To summarize, just one dumb post.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why no mention of Love's injury, dankok?

Because he was rendered ineffective due to styles?

So this ATG team couldnt take advantage of an opponent having their third best player being useless? You make no mention of his injury so I ask

[Hey Yo]

Game 4 in Cleveland, Curry scored 38 while playing 40mins in their win.

Game 5 scored 25 at home in 40mp and game 6 scored 30 on the road in 35mp

Yet he was hurt???

DUMB!

[jlip]

I did a spreadsheet showing the statistical loads (pts, rbs, & asts) for MJ and Lebron in the Finals. The numbers are the percentages of their entire teams

[SamuraiSWISH]

No way is 97 MJ under 15 Lebron. Lebron couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life. Lebron's style accumulates numbers whether he plays well or not. Especially here since Kyrie went down and the Cavs slowed it down and forced Lebron to do everything with no pressure (If he won, great. If he lost, so what? Kyrie was injured.)

Lebron WAS the offense so every possession = some stat.
I was going strictly off raw production initially but I could roll with this ... I was so drunk I didn't even list his 1998 performance.

:facepalm

Thanks for correcting me by the way. Actually I prefer K Xerxes list. Only differences I'd make ... Taking into account all factors and context I'm the reevaluating process beyond raw numbers.

1) 93
2) 91
3) 16
4) 92
5) 12

6) 97
7) 98
8) 15
9) 13
10) 96

14
07
11

[Da_Realist]

I was going strictly off raw production initially but I could roll with this ... I was so drunk I didn't even list his 1998 performance.

:facepalm

Thanks for correcting me by the way. Actually I prefer K Xerxes list. Only differences I'd make ... Taking into account all factors and context I'm the reevaluating process beyond raw numbers.

Look at it this way. Without talking about the numbers, what can you say about MJ's 97 Finals and what can you say about Lebron's 15? That's my point. You don't need to look at the stat sheet to remember what MJ did. Stat sheet was secondary and just backed up what you clearly saw. With Lebron, the stat sheet makes up 60% of his greatness. Take away the numbers jumping out of the boxscore and you'll only remember 5 plays.

[dankok8]

Why no mention of Love's injury, dankok?

Because he was rendered ineffective due to styles?

So this ATG team couldnt take advantage of an opponent having their third best player being useless? You make no mention of his injury so I ask

Dude I'm arguing for Lebron not against him...

But the truth is the Warriors were a GOAT level team and it simply wasn't enough for Lebron to play well to beat them. All those other factors invariably contributed to the Warriors losing too.

Agree on the Love injury and to be fair his impact despite it is very underrated in the series. In the last few games including Game 7, the Cavs offense was way better with him on the floor because he stretched Green to the 3pt line. His mere presence on the floor made the Cavs more potent offensively.

[3ball]

I did a spreadsheet showing the statistical loads (pts, rbs, & asts) for MJ and Lebron in the Finals. The numbers are the percentages of their entire teams’ stats that they were accountable for. (Ex. 30.8% under "points" by MJ's '91 stats means that MJ scored 30.8% of the Bulls' points that Finals.)

Do with them what you will.

MJ

Finals.... Points.... Rebounds.... Assists
1991..... 30.8%..... 16.8%..... 41.0%
1992..... 34.5%..... 12.9%..... 24.2%
1993..... 38.4%..... 19.7%..... 23.6%
1996..... 29.4%..... 13.1%..... 19.2%
1997..... 36.8%..... 17.4%..... 30.5%
1998..... 38.1%..... 10.6%..... 12.7%
Overall Avg. 34.7%. 15.1%.... 25.2%



Lebron

Finals.... Points.... Rebounds.... Assists
2007 .....27.3%..... 17.1%..... 40.9%
2011..... 19.3%..... 18.6%..... 35.0%
2012..... 28.0%..... 25.4%..... 41.1%
2013..... 26.1%..... 27.3%..... 33.1%
2014..... 30.8%..... 24.2%..... 26.3%
2015..... 38.3%..... 28.1%..... 55.8%
2016..... 29.6%..... 25.7%..... 49.2%
Overall Avg. 28.5%. 23.8%.... 40.2%


Your spreadsheet doesn't include turnovers.. When you account for turnovers, Jordan is more productive per possession, hence his superior individual ORtg, or points produced per possession (which includes assists).

For their playoff careers, Lebron averages 28/9/7 compared to Jordan's 33/6/6.. However, the 1.0 assist gap is minimized by Lebron's higher turnovers and time of possession, so the comparison comes down to Jordan's 5 point advantage with better efficiency (ts/fg/ortg) versus Lebron's 4 defensive rebound advantage.. Obviously, Jordan's scoring is more valuable - Lebron would be on a totally different level if he averaged 5 more points with better efficiency.

Also, Jordan got more ACTUAL assists and APG during his first 3 Finals wins (91, 92, 93) than Lebron's 3 wins (12, 13, 16) - the only reason Jordan didn't get a higher PROPORTION of his team's assists is because his Finals teams had goat teamwork, so his teammates were achieving more assists than Lebron's teammates - Lebron's team used a more monopolistic, "Lebron-ball" approach.. Infact, Lebron's presence reduced the assists of all key teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606535&postcount=10), whereas Jordan's off-ball presence was an assist reservoir and naturally increased his teammates' assists.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So in review, Finals Wins?

1) '93
2) '91
3) '16
4) '92
5) '12
6) '97
7) '98
8) '13
9) '96

[Dray n Klay]

So in review, Finals Wins?

1) '93
2) '91
3) '16
4) '92
5) '12
6) '97
7) '98
8) '13
9) '96

lol limit it to Finals win I see...





Its clear in terms of total Finals performances, LeBron is slightly better than Jordan overall.

[Duncan21formvp]

1991 Jordan
1993 Jordan
1992 Jordan
2016 LeBron (suspension doesn't help him here nor injuries to the starting center)
1997 Jordan
1998 Jordan
2012 LeBron (Durant averaged more than him)
2015 LeBron
1996 Jordan
2013 LeBron
2014 LeBron

[Dray n Klay]

1991 Jordan
1993 Jordan
1992 Jordan
2016 LeBron (suspension doesn't help him here nor injuries to the starting center)
1997 Jordan
1998 Jordan
2012 LeBron (Durant averaged more than him)
2015 LeBron
1996 Jordan
2013 LeBron
2014 LeBron

2014 LeBron has the highest PER Finals among them, it should be Top 3 at worst.




You ranking it last shows you are absolutely clueless with regards to basketball

[3ball]

So in review, Finals Wins?

1) '93
2) '91
3) '16
4) '92
5) '12
6) '97
7) '98
8) '13
9) '96


How can someone win a Finals if their 2nd option gets 15 ppg on 41%, while the 3rd best player isn't even starting and averages 4/8 on 37%?

That's worse than anything Lebron ever had, yet Jordan WON the 1998 Finals because he never let his defensive assignment double their scoring average like Lebron did in 2014 and 2015 Finals, nor did he ever command consistent SINGLE coverage, let alone shoot 39% against it.

[Duncan21formvp]

2014 LeBron has the highest PER Finals among them, it should be Top 3 at worst.




You ranking it last shows you are absolutely clueless with regards to basketball
No he doesn't. Dude lost in 5 games and pretty much was trying to get his stats in garbage time. Wasn't like he was killing it when the games were on the line or close. In games 3 and 4 he got like 16-18 points in the 3rd quarter when already down 20+ points. Those are what you call empty stats.

[Dray n Klay]

No he doesn't. Dude lost in 5 games and pretty much was trying to get his stats in garbage time. Wasn't like he was killing it when the games were on the line or close.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pBXKhXaPg8


Watch and learn

[SamuraiSWISH]

lol limit it to Finals win I see...





Its clear in terms of total Finals performances, LeBron is slightly better than Jordan overall.
The wins are what matter. But even if I include the others, nothing is truly changing.

1) '93
2) '91
3) '16
4) '92
5) '15
6) '12
7) '97
8) '98
9) '13
10) '14
11) '96
12) '11
13) '07

[Duncan21formvp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pBXKhXaPg8


Watch and learn
You showing highlights of the only game they won to prove a point? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Guess we need to put Iverson over Shaq then as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmi91E3SMiI

[Hey Yo]

1991 Jordan
1993 Jordan
1992 Jordan
2016 LeBron (suspension doesn't help him here nor injuries to the starting center)
1997 Jordan
1998 Jordan
2012 LeBron (Durant averaged more than him)
2015 LeBron
1996 Jordan
2013 LeBron
2014 LeBron
LeBron and the Heat came back from a 3-2 deficit in 2013 (Bosh and Ray were held scoreless in game 7) while Rodman's rebounding plus defense was the factor for the '96 Bulls against Seattle.

[Duncan21formvp]

LeBron and the Heat came back from a 3-2 deficit in 2013 (Bosh and Ray were held scoreless in game 7) while Rodman's rebounding plus defense was the factor for the '96 Bulls against Seattle.
That's the problem. Lebron was down 3-2 with HCA. Jordan was never down 3-2 with HCA.

[Hey Yo]

That's the problem. Lebron was down 3-2 with HCA. Jordan was never down 3-2 with HCA.
:oldlol:

DUMB!

[3ball]

while Rodman's rebounding plus defense was the factor for the '96 Bulls against Seattle.


Jordan's 31 ppg on 46% got the Bulls a 3-0 lead.

Then in Game 6, he led the Bulls with 22/9/7, while holding his defensive assignment (Hersey Hawkins) to 12 points below his average - this is significant, since the Bulls WON by 12, and everyone else let their man go off: Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 59%... Rodman let Kemp get 18/10 on 47%... Harper let Payton get 21 points on 70%.

[Duncan21formvp]

:oldlol:

DUMB!
Maybe to you. I don't want my star player to be down 3-2 with HCA in any series no matter there stats. And Jordan was never down 3-2 with HCA to any one. Hell he was never even down 2-1 or 2-0 to anyone with HCA.

[LostCause]

Its clear in terms of total Finals performances, LeBron is slightly better than Jordan overall.

Jordan has the highest SINGLE series PER between them. His 91 Finals PER of 34.1 is > Bron's 2016 PER of 33.4, which is Brons highest. You cite PER often, figured you'd like that one

Career-wise Jordan's PER is superior
Over his career, Jordans Finals PER is 29.17
Lebrons Finals career PER is 26.13
Even if you exclude Lebrons 07 (You shouldn't but whatever), his PER is 28.26 over 6 Finals. Still lower

Statistically?
Here are both their 6 best Finals (Aka all of Jordans vs Brons best 6.)
Lebron - 27.52 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.27apg, 3.66topg, 1.98 A/TO, .465 FG%, .351 3-PT%

Jordan - 33.6 ppg, 6.02rpg, 5.97apg, 2.85topg, 2.09 A/TO .481 FG%, .359 3-PT%

If you're not cherrypicking for Bron, it turns into:
Lebron - 26.9 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 7.22apg, 3.87topg, 1.86 A/TO, .454 FG%, .336 3-PT%

Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals with 6 FMVP's. Lebron is 3/7 with 3FMVPs

The only measures Bron is superior to Jordan in the Finals by is rebounding, total Finals' series and useless "statistical load"

Stop with these threads comparing the two of them. The facts don't change. Flat out trolling at this point

[3ball]

Maybe to you. I don't want my star player to be down 3-2 with HCA in any series no matter there stats. And Jordan was never down 3-2 with HCA to any one.

Hell he was never even down 2-1 or 2-0 to anyone with HCA.


In the 1993 ECF, the #1 seeded Knicks and their #1 defense were beating the Bulls 2-0, before Jordan put on his cape and scored 55 on all jumpshots (literally) to tie the series at 2-2, and then had 29/10/14 to pull the Bulls ahead 3-2.

That was actually one of Jordan's 3 worst-ever playoff series, statistically... Of course, his 32/6/7 on 40.0% averages were still far better than Lebron or Kobe's worst
.

[Hey Yo]

Maybe to you. I don't want my star player to be down 3-2 with HCA in any series no matter there stats. And Jordan was never down 3-2 with HCA to any one. Hell he was never even down 2-1 or 2-0 to anyone with HCA.
Of course not you stupidf*ck, but that was the case and SA lost game 7 while Birdman's 3pts outscored Bosh, Miller, Ray, and Haslem COMBINED!!

:roll:

[Hey Yo]

In the 1993 ECF, the #1 seeded Knicks and their #1 defense were beating the Bulls 2-0, before Stern put on his cape.

That was actually one of Jordan's 3 worst-ever playoff series, statistically... Of course, his 32/6/7 on 40.0% averages were still far better than Lebron or Kobe's worst
fixed for the truth

[3ball]

Of course not you stupif*ck, but that was the case and SA lost game 7 while Birdman's 3pts outscored Bosh, Miller, Ray, and Haslem COMBINED!!

:roll:
Lebron had 18, 17, and 18 points in the first 3 games of 2013 Finals

That isn't a typo.

Jordan would NEVER have played that horrifically, so he would never need a Ray Allen miracle in Game 6 to save his career like Lebron did... :confusedshrug:
.

[3ball]

fixed for the truth


Maybe you didn't read that correctly:



"Jordan scored 55 on all jumpshots..."


True story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

[Hey Yo]

Lebron had 18, 17, and 18 points in the first 3 games of 2013 Finals

That isn't a typo.

Jordan would NEVER have played that horrifically, so he would never need a Ray Allen miracle to save his career like Lebron did... :confusedshrug:
http://8328-presscdn-0-65.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/miami-heat-2013-nba-champions-5-570x401.jpg

[Duncan21formvp]

You can't compare a guy who led the U.S to 2 bronze medals to a guy who led the U.S to only Gold medals.

[LostCause]

Maybe you didn't read that correctly:



"Jordan scored 55 on all jumpshots..."


True story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A
GOAT

I wonder if someone who shoots in the 30% range outside of 2 feet from the rim can do this. What do you think 3ball?

[3ball]

http://8328-presscdn-0-65.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/miami-heat-2013-nba-champions-5-570x401.jpg



Jordan's first 3 rings are more impressive than Lebron's 3 rings because they required 30% more PPG and equal assists... :confusedshrug:




PLAYOFFS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS THRU 31 YEARS OLD



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg

[3ball]

GOAT

I wonder if someone who shoots in the 30% range outside of 2 feet from the rim can do this. What do you think 3ball?



He's done that in 3 Finals, which must be a record..

A good example of his broke jumper is 2007 - first of all, many guys played better against the same Spurs team:



Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%



The reason for Lebron's worse efficiency was JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY:



....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3




Everyone shot well on jumpers against the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - the so the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive - Lebron just can't shoot.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan's first 3 rings are more impressive than Lebron's 3 rings
Cause MJ had an All-defense NBA teammate in Pippen who guarded the oppositions first option while being the teams 2nd leading scorer while avg 5-5 rebounding and assists. That way MJ could save energy for offense.

While James had to do the heavy lifting on offense leading team in pts, rebounds and assists AND being the main stopper on defense.


MJ had it easy with such a teammate that James "and many other superstars" never had in their careers.

[Duncan21formvp]

Cause MJ had an All-defense NBA teammate in Pippen who guarded the oppositions first option while being the teams 2nd leading scorer while avg 5-5 rebounding and assists. That way MJ could save energy for offense.

While James had to do the heavy lifting on offense leading team in pts, rebounds and assists AND being the main stopper on defense.


MJ had it easy with such a teammate that James "and many other superstars" never had in their careers.
Lebron had it easy, always joined 2 superstars in there prime and then when on the team with them they become scrubs because of how Lebron plays.

Lebron had Peak Ben Wallace, Peak Shaq and then Peak Wade and Kyrie. Both Wade and Kyrie won allstar game mvp before Lebron joined them. Notice Lebron always joined guys who won allstar game mvp the year before he joined them. Even Shaq had won it as well before Lebron joined him.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron had Peak Ben Wallace, Peak Shaq and then Peak Wade and Kyrie. Both Wade and Kyrie won allstar game mvp before Lebron joined them. Notice Lebron always joined guys who won allstar game mvp the year before he joined them. Even Shaq had won it as well before Lebron joined him.

Easily one of the dumbest posters on this site

[Milbuck]

Easily one of the dumbest posters on this site
Duncan/Spurs fans are lowkey some of the most retarded fans in sports and yet they basically get a free pass just for being Duncan/Spurs fans. Fitting, it's like how the Spurs have been getting bullshit calls forever and Duncan whines as much as anyone in the league, yet no one says anything because they are who they are.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron had it easy, always joined 2 superstars in there prime and then when on the team with them they become scrubs because of how Lebron plays.

Lebron had Peak Ben Wallace, Peak Shaq and then Peak Wade and Kyrie. Both Wade and Kyrie won allstar game mvp before Lebron joined them. Notice Lebron always joined guys who won allstar game mvp the year before he joined them. Even Shaq had won it as well before Lebron joined him.

This is what its like to be clinically retarded... tread lightly.