What's more likely: MJ/Shaq/Kobe win rings w/o Phil, or Phil wins w/o them

[3ball]

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Pippen improved from 7 ppg in his rookie year, to 14 ppg in his 2nd year (1989), before Phil arrived in 1990.

Clearly, Pippen was going to be a great player without Phil Jackson - so even without Phil, MJ would've had the adequate sidekick he needed to win some rings.

People forget that during the 1988 & 1989 playoffs, Doug Collins lost to the Pistons in 5 and 6 games.. Then Phil arrived in 1990 and lost in 7 games, just like Doug or any other coach would have - so the Bulls rise to a championship was a natural progression that would've occurred under any coach, as long as they had MJ and Pippen..

However, it's true that the longevity of the championship run can be attributed to Phil, since his personality-managing kept the chemistry stable on and off the court.. Without Phil, Jordan would be 4/4 or something instead of 6/6.. But without MJ, Phil Jackson's Bulls were a 2nd Round team, and that was only after improving from lottery supporting cast in 1989, to 3-peat champion supporting cast by 1993.

[ShawkFactory]

What's spawned this Phil agenda recently?

[ScalsFan21]

.Without Phil, Jordan would be 4/4 or something instead of 6/6

So then Threebs, you're telling me LeBron is currently a mere one ring behind where Michael would be without (at worst) a true upper-echelon coach?

Because you've said to me in the past that if LeBron surpassed MJ in chips he'd be irrefutably better, even despite your criticisms about the spacing in today's game, the "team-hopping", and all your other arguments to why MJ had it more difficult. So by that logic are we do assume that without the Zen Master, you don't think Michael would have been able to hold off LeBron in ring count? :confusedshrug: That in fact a HC may have been the difference between #1 and #2 on the all-time list?

[Dragonyeuw]

Phil managed superstar egos, Tex was the x's and O's guys. I refuse to believe that Phil Jackson was the only coach capable of leading Michael Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe to rings. Each time he joined a team, that team was ascending and he latched on the best player approaching his prime with an upcoming talent: 26 year old MJ with 24 year old Pippen, and 27 year old Shaq with 21 year old Kobe. That can't be a coincidence.

[3ball]

So then Threebs, you're telling me LeBron is currently a mere one ring behind where Michael would be without (at worst) a true upper-echelon coach?


All players have built-in advantages that aid their success - Lebron is no different.

Jordan's advantage was Phil's personality/chemistry-managing on and off the court, which allowed longer, sustained success... Otoh, Lebron's advantage was skipping the chemistry-building process by team-hopping to form "Big 3's" and "super-teams".

[hateraid]

What's spawned this Phil agenda recently?

Trying to build Jordan's legacy by discrediting Jackson since the popular argument is Jackson is a GOAT calibre coach. Sprinkling in Kobe and Shaq to fuel that agenda.

[NBAGOAT]

well if Phil has a shit team, ofc he's not winning anything. An interesting thought experiment is what would happen if you switched phil with the coach of the next contender. I think Phil could definitely win for example if you switched him with Dunleavy on the Blazers in 00 or even a great coach like Sloan on the Jazz in 97 and 98. Those series were all close, a coaching upgrade for the opponent and downgrade for the Bulls/Lakers could definitely be the difference.

[3ball]

well if Phil has a shit team, ofc he's not winning anything. An interesting thought experiment is what would happen if you switched phil with the coach of the next contender. I think Phil could definitely win for example if you switched him with Dunleavy on the Blazers in 00 or even a great coach like Sloan on the Jazz in 97 and 98. Those series were all close, a coaching upgrade for the opponent and downgrade for the Bulls/Lakers could definitely be the difference.
It's ignorant to think any players can just fit into the triangle and run the offense at a championship level.

The triangle is one of the most complicated, restrictive offenses ever, which is why players as good as Carmelo play the triangle at a lottery level.

The triangle requires one of the top 3 post presences in the league (MJ, Shaq, or Pau) and a goat iso closer for the many possessions when the shot clock runs down (MJ, Kobe) - the offense has never yielded a championship without both of these things (post presence, closer).. The offense must also be run with minimal or NO ball-domination - extended live dribbles like today's players use is simply not allowed in the triangle.
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[SouBeachTalents]

This fakkit sure likes to make the same thread repeatedly

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414775
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414646

Expect another dozen or so Phil Jackson threads this month

[Hey Yo]

All players have built-in advantages that aid their success - Lebron is no different.

Jordan's advantage was Phil's personality/chemistry-managing on and off the court, which allowed longer, sustained success... Otoh, Lebron's advantage was skipping the chemistry-building process by team-hopping to form "Big 3's" and "super-teams".
Who do you suggest LeBron should have built chemistry with in his first 7 seasons at Cleveland?

How was Cleveland able to get to the 2015 Finals with 4 starters he never played with before that?

[Hey Yo]

https://memecrunch.com/meme/9NA11/caddyshack-well-were-waiting/image.png