How jordan did with a ''lebron type'' supporting cast

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan for most of his career had the superior supporting cast and head coach, this lead to him winning 6 titles in a weak expansion era

Otoh when given a lebron like supporting cast he didn't do so well.

Jordan was drafted to the bulls who went 27-55 the previous year..
In jordan's rookie year the team went 35-47 just an 8 game improvement and managed to make the playoffs.

Jordan attempting to enforce Jordan ball REGRESSED even more the second year going 30-52 :facepalm but because of such a weak east was able to STILL make the playoffs..

In his 3rd year they went 40-42 and lost AGIAN in the first round.. with superior supporting cast in paxson and oakley..

otoh Lebron was drafted to a team that went 17-65 the previous year.. but it all changed from there...

lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference DOUBLE of ordan's 8 win improvment

In year 2 Lebron enforced his brand of basketball and improved the team even MORE winning this time 42-40 but failed to make the playoffs due to a strong east at the time..

In lebron's third year he FINALLY broke through winning 50 games and getting his team to the playsoff and guess what? he WON his first playoff series something ordan just couldn't do..

Just to put things into perspective, by lebron's fourth year he was in the FINALS despite having a weaker supporting cast AND HARDER competition.
Jordan? still losing in the playoffs to the pistons WITH pippen..

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan attempting to enforce Jordan ball REGRESSED even more the second year going 30-52 :facepalm but because of such a weak east was able to STILL make the playoffs..



You realize that Jordan missed 64 games this year, right? Of course you do.


Fcuking hell this forum has turned to complete shit the last few years.

[TheWinningFam]

You realize that Jordan missed 64 games this year, right? Of course you do.


Fcuking hell this forum has turned to complete shit the last few years.

Jordan missing 64 games his sophmore year and the team only losing 5 more games that year SHOWS that jordan has ALWAYS had the better supporting cast than lebron.. If lebron had suffered an injury like that that year, the cavs would have likely only won 15-13 games.:facepalm

[Doranku]

otoh? The only other person that uses that acronym is 3ball.

Poor guy melted down so hard he created an alter ego to cope with LeBron's greatness. :lol

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan missing 64 games his sophmore year and the team only losing 5 more games that year SHOWS that jordan has ALWAYS had the better supporting cast than lebron.. If lebron had suffered an injury like that that year, the cavs would have likely only won 15-13 games.:facepalm

The Bulls would have won more than 30 games if MJ had played more than 18 games you inbred c*nt.

[TheWinningFam]

The Bulls would have won more than 30 games if MJ had played more than 18 games you inbred c*nt.
Missing the point and resorting to ad homs.

If you take lebron out for 64 games that cavs team isn't winning more than 20

otoh, You take jordan out for 64 games and that team wins 30 only 5 less than when he played a full season. ... Let that sink in

[NBAGOAT]

Jordan missing 64 games his sophmore year and the team only losing 5 more games that year SHOWS that jordan has ALWAYS had the better supporting cast than lebron.. If lebron had suffered an injury like that that year, the cavs would have likely only won 15-13 games.:facepalm

bad argument, Bulls could've definitely won 40+ with Jordan. It was the only Bulls team with Woolridge and Oakley which is honestly not that terrible.

[TheWinningFam]

bad argument, Bulls could've definitely won 40+ with Jordan. It was the only Bulls team with Woolridge and Oakley which is honestly not that terrible.
That's the exact point.

Jordan since his rookie year has had the superior supporting cast to lebron yet lebron has done more with less than jordan.

[hateraid]

Missing the point and resorting to ad homs.

If you take lebron out for 64 games that cavs team isn't winning more than 20

otoh, You take jordan out for 64 games and that team wins 30 only 5 less than when he played a full season. ... Let that sink in

Of course the latter is going to be argued. Jordan stans belive they would win 20 more games if he was there, even though that was far fetch. They fail too see the significance of only losing 5 games more in his absence.

Just like they fail to see the playoff calibre team the Bulls were when Jordan retired his first run. Bulls made the playoff and almost made the semis if it weren't for a bad call in a game 7. They'll flip that argument by claiming they still didn't win a championship.

[NBAGOAT]

That's the exact point.

Jordan since his rookie year has had the superior supporting cast to lebron yet lebron has done more with less than jordan.

the bad argument is you saying the Bulls only got worse by 5 wins without Jordan without looking at other factors(same for 1994). Anyway that was only for a year, having just Oakley or Woolridge is not good.

[TheWinningFam]

the bad argument is you saying the Bulls only got worse by 5 wins without Jordan without looking at other factors(same for 1994). Anyway that was only for a year, having just Oakley or Woolridge is not good.

Jordan had 2 other good supporting cast members in oakley and woolride,

otoh lebron at best had Big Z

Before lebron joined that team went 17-65

Jordan's went 25-57

If jordan made such a bigger impact than lebron why did his team only lose 5 more games in his absence? while lebron's team WON 16 more games in his presence?

[Gileraracer]

6 >>>>> 3 :lol

[3ball]

Lebron would win the same way with Jordan's supporting cast


Ask yourself the following question: could Lebron make up the scoring if Kyrie wasn't able to average 27 ppg in the Finals?

That's the dilemma Jordan faced in every series since Pippen never scored like Kyrie did - Pippen's high alongside Jordan was only 22 ppg, and he averaged 17 ppg on 40.8% during entire 96-98 playoffs.

That's how we know Lebron couldn't win with Jordan's supporting casts - he couldn't handle the scoring load.. The Bulls needed Jordan to lead the team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan.. Heck, Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's scoring leader, including an entire playoff run.





when Jordan had a bad supporting cast like lebron he didn't do so well.


We can prove Lebron had better supporting casts because he won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, despite producing less individually (28/8/7 vs. Jordan's 33/8/8).

The 19 win-advantage despite Lebron's lower production can only be a due to better supporting cast and inferior competition... But not brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by the lowly, underdog Magic.





Jordan attempting to enforce Jordan ball REGRESSED even more the second year going 30-52 :facepalm but because of such a weak east was able to STILL make the playoffs


The 2007 Pistons achieved the 1 seed with only 53 wins, the lowest of any 1 seed ever - a bad 1 seed is a FAR better indication of a weak conference than a bad 8 seed like the Bulls in 86'.

Compare the Pistons' 53 wins (1 seed), to the Cavs' 57 wins (3 seed) in 1989 - clearly, 1989 was the tougher conference.

Btw, we can prove how weak that East was - for Lebron to make the Finals in 2007, he only needed to average 25 ppg on 42% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF vs. Detroit - these stats would be among the very worst of Jordan's playoff career, whose career averages in the playoffs were 33.5 ppg on 49%.





he WON his first playoff series something ordan just couldn't do..


Lebron played the 42-40 Wizards in that series, who aren't a top 1000 team all-time, whereas Jordan played the 1986 and 1987 Celtics, who were among the best teams of all time.

Jordan faced championship teams in the 1st round (86' Celtics), whereas Lebron didn't face the Spurs until the Finals - but Jordan's stats at 22 years old against the champion Celtics and their #1 defense was 44 ppg on 50%, compared to Lebron's 22 ppg on 36% versus the Spurs in 2007 Finals.





by lebron's fourth year he was winning more games than Jordan despite worse individual production (which means he had a better supporting cast) AND played the worst competition of all time (the 2007 Pistons had the least wins of any 1 seed ever)


^^ FIXED
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[Dragonyeuw]

Missing the point and resorting to ad homs.

If you take lebron out for 64 games that cavs team isn't winning more than 20

otoh, You take jordan out for 64 games and that team wins 30 only 5 less than when he played a full season. ... Let that sink in

What was the Bulls 86-87 record? 40-42 with his second and third options Charles Oakley and John Paxson. No Woolridge, No Gervin. Literally carrying mediocre talent to 40 wins. What was so special about the 88 roster with Oakley, Dave Corzine, and Pippen/Grant as 7.0 ppg rookies that MJ led to 50 wins?

Big Z alone was better than any teammate MJ had before Pippen and Grant developed, so was Boozer prior to being traded. MJ didn't get his first allstar teammate until 1990. Lebron came into the league with a top 5 center, which in the weak-ass 2000's east is all you needed to be at the minimum competitive. After Miami and Detroit, nothing but mediocre 40+ win teams. MJ's rookie year? The east has 3 50 win teams in 85,in 86 the east had 4 50 win teams. Not comparable situations in the least.... MJ lost to the playoffs to the eventual champions on 3 occasions: 86 Celtics, 89 and 90 Pistons. Asides from the Lakers, the best teams were in MJ's own conference before he got a decent enough team around him. Lebron wouldn't beat those teams either, because he couldn't even beat the 2009 Magic as the number 1 seed, so there's no way in hell he beat much superior 80's Celtics and Pistons championship squads.

[TheWinningFam]

Ask yourself the following question: could Lebron make up the scoring if Kyrie wasn't able to average 27 ppg in the Finals?

That's the dilemma Jordan faced in every series since Pippen never scored like Kyrie did - Pippen's high alongside Jordan was only 22 ppg, and he averaged 17 ppg on 40.8% during entire 96-98 playoffs.

That's how we know Lebron couldn't win with Jordan's supporting casts - he couldn't handle the scoring load.. The Bulls needed Jordan to lead the team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan.. Heck, Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's scoring leader, including an entire playoff run.



We can prove Lebron had better supporting casts because he won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, despite producing less individually (28/8/7 vs. Jordan's 33/8/8).

The 19 win-advantage despite Lebron's lower production can only be a due to better supporting cast and inferior competition... But not brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by the lowly, underdog Magic.



The 2007 Pistons achieved the 1 seed with only 53 wins, the lowest of any 1 seed ever - a bad 1 seed is a FAR better indication of a weak conference than a bad 8 seed like the Bulls in 86'.

Compare the Pistons' 53 wins (1 seed), to the Cavs' 57 wins (3 seed) in 1989 - clearly, 1989 was the tougher conference.

Btw, we can prove how weak that East was - for Lebron to make the Finals in 2007, he only needed to average 25 ppg on 42% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF vs. Detroit - these stats would be among the very worst of Jordan's playoff career, whose career averages in the playoffs were 33.5 ppg on 49%.



Lebron played the 42-40 Wizards in that series, who aren't a top 1000 team all-time, whereas Jordan played the 1986 and 1987 Celtics, who were among the best teams of all time.

Jordan faced championship teams in the 1st round (86' Celtics), whereas Lebron didn't face the Spurs until the Finals - but Jordan's stats at 22 years old against the champion Celtics and their #1 defense was 44 ppg on 50%, compared to Lebron's 22 ppg on 36% in 2007 Finals.



^^ FIXED
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Jordan's numbers were higher due to a faster pace.. when you adjust to per 100 lebron scored more rebounded AND had more assists than jordan DESPITE a weaker supporting cast. By then jordan had pippen and paxson

Per 100 2009 lebron stats : 41.0ppg 10.8aspg 11.1Rbpg
Jordan stats 1989: 40.0ppg 9.9aspg 9.9rbpg

Lebron won more games with more production with LESSER teammates than jordan.

[TheWinningFam]

What was the Bulls 86-87 record? 40-42 with his second and third options Charles Oakley and John Paxson. No Woolridge, No Gervin. Literally carrying mediocre talent to 40 wins. What was so special about the 88 roster with Oakley, Dave Corzine, and Pippen/Grant as 7.0 ppg rookies that MJ led to 50 wins?

Big Z alone was better than any teammate MJ had before Pippen and Grant developed, so was Boozer prior to being traded. MJ didn't get his first allstar teammate until 1990. Lebron came into the league with a top 5 center, which in the weak-ass 2000's east is all you needed to be at the minimum competitive. After Miami and Detroit, nothing but mediocre 40+ win teams. MJ's rookie year? The east has 3 50 win teams in 85,in 86 the east had 4 50 win teams. Not comparable situations in the least....

Pippens stats were lower due to a higher pace.

Big Z won only won 17 games in the weak ass east. otoh, jordan's supporting cast won 25 and only lost 5 more games without him in an era you claim to be stronger than ''the weak ass 2000s east'' Let that sink in.

[3ball]

Jordan's numbers were higher due to a faster pace.. when you adjust to per 100 lebron scored more rebounded AND had more assists than jordan DESPITE a weaker supporting cast.

Per 100 2009 lebron stats : 41.0ppg 10.8aspg 11.1Rbpg
Jordan stats 1989: 40.0ppg 9.9aspg 9.9rbpg


That's fine - the stats are essentially equal, except Jordan had superior shooting and per possession efficiency (ts and ortg).

So I'll amend the statement: Lebron won 19 more games than Jordan despite equal individual production, which can only be due to better supporting cast and inferior competition...

But not brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by the lowly, underdog Magic.

[Dragonyeuw]

Pippens stats were lower due to a higher pace.

Big Z won only won 17 games in the weak ass east. otoh, jordan's supporting cast won 25 and only lost 5 more games without him in an era you claim to be stronger than ''the weak ass 2000s east'' Let that sink in.

MJ lost to the playoffs to the eventual champions on 3 occasions: 86 Celtics, 89 and 90 Pistons. Asides from the Lakers, the best teams were in MJ's own conference before he got a decent enough team around him. Lebron wouldn't beat those teams either, because he couldn't even beat the 2009 Magic as the number 1 seed, so there's no way in hell he beats much superior 80's Celtics and Pistons championship squads.

MJ never lost a single series with HCA, while Lebron did after leading the Cavs to 66 wins.

Lebron only got to the finals in 2007 because the Pistons were past their peak( ironically, the argument haters use as to why Jordan eventually got past the Pistons in 91) and the Heat lost Wade mid-season with Shaq beyond his prime.

The east was so weak in 2007 that the number one seed won 53 wins. That's good for 4th in the west, not taking into account that the west was much better so the Pistons wouldn't win 53 games in the west.

Lebron had the benefit of feasting on mediocre Wizards, pre-Rose Bulls squads, past prime Pistons squads, but couldn't get past the Celtics in much the same manner that MJ couldn't get past the Pistons. Same thing, except MJ didn't go team with Drexler( who lost to Detroit in the 90 finals) to stack the odds in his favor.

Let that sink in.

[Haymaker]

People trying to bash or diminish Jordan's accomplishments are a funny bunch. I mean, it's futile. It's like an ant trying to take a bite out of a dinosaur. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

MJ lost to the playoffs to the eventual champions on 3 occasions: 86 Celtics, 89 and 90 Pistons. Asides from the Lakers, the best teams were in MJ's own conference before he got a decent enough team around him. Lebron wouldn't beat those teams either, because he couldn't even beat the 2009 Magic as the number 1 seed, so there's no way in hell he beats much superior 80's Celtics and Pistons championship squads. MJ never lost a single series with HCA, while Lebron did after leading the Cavs to 66 wins. Lebron only got to the finals in 2007 because the Pistons were past their peak( ironically, the argument haters use as to why Jordan eventually got past the Pistons in 91) and the Heat lost Wade mid-season with Shaq beyond his prime. The east was so weak in 2007 that the number one seed won 53 wins. That's good for 4th in the west, not taking into account that the west was much better so the Pistons wouldn't win 53 games in the west.

Let that sink in.

we have direct stats for measuring conference disparity(SRS) and you're definitely overstating the difference. The Pistons were between the Rockets and Jazz SRS wise and the Rockets underperformed their expected record(mov says they're more like a 55 win team). The SOS difference was actually pretty small that year(0.08 below average for Spurs to 0.47 below average for the Pistons). They would've maybe had 1 or 2 less wins, pretty insignificant.

[Hey Yo]

What was the Bulls 86-87 record? 40-42 with his second and third options Charles Oakley and John Paxson. No Woolridge, No Gervin. Literally carrying mediocre talent to 40 wins. What was so special about the 88 roster with Oakley, Dave Corzine, and Pippen/Grant as 7.0 ppg rookies that MJ led to 50 wins?

Big Z alone was better than any teammate MJ had before Pippen and Grant developed, so was Boozer prior to being traded. MJ didn't get his first allstar teammate until 1990. Lebron came into the league with a top 5 center, which in the weak-ass 2000's east is all you needed to be at the minimum competitive. After Miami and Detroit, nothing but mediocre 40+ win teams. MJ's rookie year? The east has 3 50 win teams in 85,in 86 the east had 4 50 win teams. Not comparable situations in the least.... MJ lost to the playoffs to the eventual champions on 3 occasions: 86 Celtics, 89 and 90 Pistons. Asides from the Lakers, the best teams were in MJ's own conference before he got a decent enough team around him. Lebron wouldn't beat those teams either, because he couldn't even beat the 2009 Magic as the number 1 seed, so there's no way in hell he beat much superior 80's Celtics and Pistons championship squads.
POS Boozer was never traded.

That bitch lied to Cleveland after promising to re-sing.... so Cleveland let him become a UFA. Instead he signed with Utah 4yr 68mil.


Boozer, recently named to the U.S. Olympic team, could have been Cleveland's next season for $695,000, but the Cavaliers did not pick up their option after, the club said, Boozer had committed to re-signing for the team's full mid-level exception -- somewhere around six years and $40 million.

Now Cleveland almost certainly cannot retain Boozer. While the Cavs have the right to match the Utah offer, they are only about $4 million under the current cap and would have to trade and/or renounce the rights to a number of players to clear enough room to sign Boozer.

[TheWinningFam]

That's fine - the stats are essentially equal, except Jordan had superior shooting and per possession efficiency (ts and ortg).

So I'll amend the statement: Lebron won 19 more games than Jordan despite equal individual production, which can only be due to better supporting cast and inferior competition...

But not brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand of basketball was better because his brand thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by the lowly, underdog Magic.

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

POS Boozer was never traded.

That bitch lied to Cleveland after promising to re-sing.... so Cleveland let him become a UFA. Instead he signed with Utah 4yr 68mil.

Traded, signed, whatever. The point is that Boozer was on the team and along with Z, better than MJ's early career teammates.

[Dragonyeuw]

we have direct stats for measuring conference disparity(SRS) and you're definitely overstating the difference. The Pistons were between the Rockets and Jazz SRS wise and the Rockets underperformed their expected record(mov says they're more like a 55 win team). The SOS difference was actually pretty small that year(0.08 below average for Spurs to 0.47 below average for the Pistons). They would've maybe had 1 or 2 less wins, pretty insignificant.

The point is 53 wins doesn't get them a number one seed in the west. If you're arguing that the Pistons in the west have one or two less wins, you're helping to make my point. I'm not saying the Pistons out east are a scrub team. They'd be a 51/52 win team which places them firmly behind the Mavs, Suns, and Spurs and they'd be battling with Rockets and Jazz for 4-6 seeding.

[TheWinningFam]

We are comparing lebron/jordan's first few years and u nigguhs bring up 2007 and 2009 :facepalm

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Hey Yo]

Traded, signed, whatever. The point is that Boozer was on the team and along with Z, better than MJ's early career teammates.
Woolridge was avg 23ppg with Mike while Boozer avg 15.5 his only year with LeBron.

[NBAGOAT]

The point is 53 wins doesn't get them a number one seed in the west. If you're arguing that the Pistons in the west have one or two less wins, you're helping to make my point. I'm not saying the Pistons out east are a scrub team. They'd be a 51/52 win team which places them firmly behind the Mavs, Suns, and Spurs and they'd be battling with Rockets and Jazz for 4-6 seeding.

I was really just arguing the fact about the West being that much better when the conference disparity wasn't that big that year sos wise.

[3ball]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.


Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron's team still won an equal number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse.. This is actually thread worthy.

So again - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games (especially early in his career), which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L

[TheWinningFam]

Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron still won the same number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse.. This is actually thread worthy.

So again - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games (especially early in his career), which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L
Lebron won more regular season games because he made his teammates better in a slower paced era.
Otoh, Jordan needed better teammates to win and played in a faster pace era in the nba..

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite in a faster paced era with ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in. hold an L

[Dragonyeuw]

Woolridge was avg 23ppg with Mike while Boozer avg 15.5 his only year with LeBron.

Boozer was 15 and 11 on 57 TS%. Big Z was on the squad with 17 and 9. This was in 2004. Neither one of those players were worse just because their PPG were lower. Big Z was top 5 center at this point, it's relative to competition at the time and the reality is Lebron had an all-star at this side from the beginning. MJ need more than a 23 ppg Woolridge to beat the Buck and Celtics, don't you think?

[Dragonyeuw]

I was really just arguing the fact about the West being that much better when the conference disparity wasn't that big that year sos wise.

Unless you're saying that the Mavs, Suns, Spurs, and Rockets weren't better than just about any east team, I'm not sure what we're arguing. The top tier talent was on a different level.

[TheWinningFam]

Boozer was 15 and 11 on 57 TS%. Big Z was on the squad with 17 and 9. This was in 2004. Neither one of those players were worse just because their PPG were lower. Big Z was top 5 center at this point, it's relative to competition at the time and the reality is Lebron had an all-star at this side from the beginning. MJ need more than a 23 ppg Woolridge to beat the Buck and Celtics, don't you think?

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.:facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

Unless you're saying that the Mavs, Suns, Spurs, and Rockets weren't better than just about any east team, I'm not sure what we're arguing. The top tier talent was on a different level.

I say only suns and spurs but that's for another debate. You're looking at conference disparity by just looking at the top tier teams which is more useful during the playoffs but not everything. During the RS, those 20-25 win teams matter just as much which people seem to ignore. I'm guessing then you have np conceding the West was better than the East every year in the 90's too even if some years the East definitely had a tougher SOS.

[3ball]

Lebron won more regular season games because he made his teammates better


It's statistical fact that Lebron's teammates have SIGNIFICANTLY lower stats alongside him, especially key teammates.

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played to 100% capacity alongside him, compared to their stats without him.





Lebron won more regular season games because he made his teammates better



Lebron lowers his teammates PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)






Lebron won in a slower paced era


Jordan won 3 rings from 1996-1998 when pace and PPG was lower than today's game.






Rookie Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team


Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron still won the same number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse..

This is actually thread worthy - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games, which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L

[Hey Yo]

Boozer was 15 and 11 on 57 TS%. Big Z was on the squad with 17 and 9. This was in 2004. Neither one of those players were worse just because their PPG were lower. Big Z was top 5 center at this point, it's relative to competition at the time and the reality is Lebron had an all-star at this side from the beginning. MJ need more than a 23 ppg Woolridge to beat the Buck and Celtics, don't you think?
MJ was getting more help/production. 16-10 from his Center, Johnson. Plus 21.6ppg from Dailey, plus Woolridge's 23ppg.

Then add 21yr old MJ played for 3yrs under UNC's legendary coach Dean Smith while 19yr old rookie James played for a coach who came from the small town of East Liverpool, Ohio.

C'mon....it's not even close who had more productive teammates early on.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.:facepalm

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east :applause:

[TheWinningFam]

It's statistical fact that Lebron's teammates have SIGNIFICANTLY lower stats alongside him, especially key teammates.

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played to 100% capacity alongside him, compared to their stats without him.




Lebron lowers his teammates PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)




Jordan won 3 rings from 1996-1998 when pace and PPG was lower than today's game.




Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron still won the same number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse..

This is actually thread worthy - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games, which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L
Lebron forced teams to double and triple team him, which lead to his teammates assisted rates to skyrocket, lebron being the number 1 option creates on his own better than jordan he's the GOAT isolation,Passer and double/triple teamed scorer. while being double and triple teamed and has a lower assisted ratio AND opens it up for everyone to get easy open looks, thus making everybody better

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in. Hold this L :facepalm

[TheWinningFam]

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east :applause:

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

I say only suns and spurs but that's for another debate. You're looking at conference disparity by just looking at the top tier teams which is more useful during the playoffs but not everything. During the RS, those 20-25 win teams matter just as much which people seem to ignore. I'm guessing then you have np conceding the West was better than the East every year in the 90's too even if some years the East definitely had a tougher SOS.

Of course it's about top tier teams. Facing Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Rockets, and Jazz 4 times a year, is going to impact you more than Detroit, Toronto, and New Jersey.

I'd like your argument for 90's west> 90's east, at least anywhere near the discrepancy of 00's west> east.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ was getting more help/production. 16-10 from his Center, Johnson plus 21.6ppg from Dailey, plus Woolridge's 23ppg.

Then add 21yr old MJ played for 3yrs under UNC's legendary coach Dean Smith while 19yr old rookie James played for a coach who came from the small town of East Liverpool, Ohio.

C'mon....it's not even close who had more productive teammates early on.

Who was 16 and 10 on the 84-85 Bulls? Dailey was 16.0 ppg. Where are you getting these numbers from?

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

Not sinking in, yet?

[NBAGOAT]

Of course it's about top tier teams. Facing Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Rockets, and Jazz 4 times a year, is going to impact you more than Detroit, Toronto, and New Jersey.

I'd like your argument for 90's west> 90's east, at least anywhere near the discrepancy of 00's west> east.

never said the discrepancy was close, just that the West was better pretty much every year since it had more top tier teams. Facing those teams 4 times a year won't affect your RS record any different than facing the grizzlies 4 times a year.

[TheWinningFam]

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

Not sinking in, yet?
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era which made it harder to win.

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' If the competition was better, why did they only lose 5 more games without him? Let that sink in.

[Hey Yo]

Who was 16 and 10 on the 84-85 Bulls? Dailey was 16.0 ppg. Where are you getting these numbers from?
My fault....was accidentlly looking at Per 36mins.

[Dragonyeuw]

never said the discrepancy was close, just that the West was better pretty much every year since it had more top tier teams.

The 90's east could be argued as better at different parts of the decade, the west in others, no huge discrepancies either way. The west has been CONSISTENTLY better throughout Lebron's career, in certain years with HUGE discrepancies at the top. This year alone, GS, Spurs,Thunder, and Clippers could easily be argued as better than the East's top teams after Cleveland. There may be more 'parity' between 4-8 in the east, but no-one asides from Cleveland is a threat to the top 4 teams in the west.

[3ball]

Lebron forced teams to double and triple team him, which lead to his teammates assisted rates to skyrocket



Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire 2015 Finals:


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team



In comparison to Lebron being doubled 18 times in a series (3 times per game), Jordan was often doubled 10+ times in a single QUARTER - here's a bunch of examples: :

In Game 6 of 1989 ECF, MJ was double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s).. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post[/COLOR][/I] - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.







Rookie Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Rookie Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team


The stats prove Lebron's supporting cast was better: rookie Lebron won an equal number of games as rookie Jordan, despite having FAR worse individual stats..

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast and play worse comp - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era which made it harder to win.

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' If the competition was better, why did they only lose 5 more games without him? Let that sink in.

Equate pace of era with quality of competition for us.

[NBAGOAT]

The 90's east could be argued as better at different parts of the decade, the west in others, no huge discrepancies either way. The west has been CONSISTENTLY better throughout Lebron's career, in certain years with HUGE discrepancies at the top. This year alone, GS, Spurs,Thunder, and Clippers could easily be argued as better than the East's top teams after Cleveland. There may be more 'parity' between 4-8 in the east, but no-one asides from Cleveland is a threat to the top 4 teams in the west.

so what year in the 90's do you think the East had more top tier teams or was at least equal(not counting 94 or 95).

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire 2015 Finals:


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team



In comparison to Lebron being doubled 18 times in a series (3 times per game), Jordan was often doubled 10+ times in a single QUARTER - here's a bunch of examples: :

In Game 6 of 1989 ECF, MJ was double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s).. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post[/COLOR][/I] - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.





The stats prove Lebron's supporting cast was better: rookie Lebron won an equal number of games as rookie Jordan, despite having FAR worse individual stats..

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast and play worse comp - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.
Jordan was doubled by scrubs except for payton, while lebron was guarded by iguadala and kawhii better defenders AND THEN DOUBLED by top tier defenses defense today is more advanced and 10x better than defense in the 90s
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team while being doubled and triple teamed as a rookie with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

so what year in the 90's do you think the East had more top tier teams or was at least equal(not counting 94 or 95).

92-93 east with Bulls, Knicks and Cavs. West had Suns, ascending Houston, and Seattle. Portland was on the decline( mirroring Drexler falling out of prime), Spurs weren't a title threat.

96-97 with Chicago, Miami, Knicks, Hawks versus West with Utah, Rockets, Sonics, Lakers.

97-98 with Chicago, Heat, Pacers versus west with Utah, Spurs, Sonics, Lakers.

We're looking at the competitive balance in the 90's east for seasons MJ played,. So by that, 94 and 95 you're omitting because Jordan was out of the league( or returned at the end of 95), right? Also take 99 out of the equation since Mj was retired. So in 93, 97, and 98, the East IMO were at least on par in terms of how the top teams matched against each other. There are really no years where you could argue that the east was better, or even equal, to the west during Lebron's tenure in terms of top tier talent. There was a lot of mediocrity.

[3ball]

Jordan was doubled by scrubs except for payton


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/simply-the-best-picture-id169852496





Lebron was doubled a lot


It's a well-known fact that Lebron is rarely double-teamed.

One-dimensional rim-attackers don't need to be doubled as much since the defense can converge on them at the rim - but great jumpshooters DO need extra defenders to get the ball out of their hand and prevent another jumpshot - Jordan's hot hand FREQUENTLY needed to be prevented.





Lebron was doubled a lot


Again, Lebron is rarely double-teamed - he was doubled a total of 18 times in the entire 2015 Finals - this doesn't compare to Jordan being doubled 10 times in a QUARTER, as shown in the first post this page.





by top tier defenses defense today is more advanced and 10x better than defense in the 90s


Defense didn't need to be advanced in the 80's or 90's, because players didn't shoot 3-pointers, which allowed defenders to crowd the paint and wait on penetrators.

Otoh, today's paint is wide open on every play due to 3-point shooters spacing the floor, so advanced tactics are required for defenders to cover the extra ground.





Lebron played at slower pace


**each year is a link to source data (bballref)**


LEAGUE-WIDE PACE IN PLAYOFFS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1991.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.3
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html#all_misc_stats):. 91.7
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.8
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.1
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.2
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats):. 85.9

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.8
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.0
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.6
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats):. 94.4
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2016.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.0




PACE IN FINALS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):. 85.8
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):. 92.3
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):. 89.7
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):. 83.5
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):. 84.0
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):. 82.0

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html):. 82.8
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html):. 85.5
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html):. 88.6
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html):. 88.1
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html):. 87.4
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 90.7
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 92.0



Also, Jordan's Bulls played at the slowest pace in the league and it was pretty much equal to Lebron's Cavs, Heat and Cavs.

Also, Jordan won 3 rings from 96-98 when the league had slower pace and lower PPG than today's game.






Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team


Rookie Lebron won an equal number of games, even though his stats were FAR worse than rookie Jordan's.

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast and play worse comp - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.
.

[NBAGOAT]

92-93 east with Bulls, Knicks and Cavs. West had Suns, ascending Houston, and Seattle. Portland was on the decline( mirroring Drexler falling out of prime), Spurs weren't a title threat.

96-97 with Chicago, Miami, Knicks, Hawks versus West with Utah, Rockets, Sonics, Lakers.

97-98 with Chicago, Heat, Pacers versus west with Utah, Spurs, Sonics, Lakers


I don't just look at it from a standpoint of which conference necessarily has 'more' or 'less' 50 win teams or whatever. I'm looking at it from a standpoint of which conference has *legit title contenders. The top 3 teams from the east and west in the 90's were pretty much all legit contenders. Compared to now, where the East has Cleveland and let's be real, no-one give Toronto any hope of beating GS, OKC, or Spurs in a finals matchup. There are really no years where you could argue that the east was better than the west during Lebron's tenure.

I would say definitely for 96-97, you could say the West had 3/4 next best teams. I would 98 there were more elite teams in the West too and I'm not sure if the Pacers are necessarily better than the the 4 teams in the West even if they gave the Bulls the toughest series. 92-93 is the best one on your list. Also 09-11 have an argument for the East(mainly 09 since 3/4 best teams in the East)..

[TheWinningFam]

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/simply-the-best-picture-id169852496



It's a well-known fact that Lebron is rarely double-teamed.

One-dimensional rim-attackers don't need to be doubled as much since the defense can converge on them at the rim - but great jumpshooters DO need extra defenders to get the ball out of their hand and prevent another jumpshot - Jordan's hot hand FREQUENTLY needed to be prevented.



Again, Lebron wasn't double-teamed - he was doubled a total of 18 times in the 2015 Finals, which is 3 times per game and doesn't compare to Jordan being doubled 10 times in a QUARTER, as shown in the first post on this page.



Defense didn't need to be advanced in the 80's or 90's, because players didn't shoot 3-pointers, which allowed defenders to crowd the paint and wait on penetrators.

Otoh, today's paint is wide open on every play due to 3-point shooters spacing the floor, so advanced tactics are required for defenders to cover the extra ground.



**each year is a link to source data (bballref)**


PACE IN PLAYOFFS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1991.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.3
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html#all_misc_stats):. 91.7
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.8
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.1
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.2
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats):. 85.9

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.8
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.0
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.6
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats):. 94.4
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2016.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.0




PACE IN FINALS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):. 85.8
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):. 92.3
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):. 89.7
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):. 83.5
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):. 84.0
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):. 82.0

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html):. 82.8
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html):. 85.5
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html):. 88.6
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html):. 88.1
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html):. 87.4
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 90.7
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 92.0



Also, Jordan won 3 rings from 96-98 when the league had slower pace and lower PPG than today's game.




Rookie Lebron won an equal number of games, even though his stats were FAR worse than rookie Jordan's.

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast and play worse comp - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.
Jordan won an equal number of games cuz he had a better team with ''tougher'' competition agian this is about impact on teams not performance..
Lebron has a bigger impact than jordan does on his teams

Jordan won in 96-98 when he had a stacked team with pippen and rodman rodman was the best player in one of his championship games with 9 pts 19 rebounds.


Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[TheWinningFam]

Further more
Slower pace doesn't lead to easier shots.

Faster pace leads to more defensive disarray, and often times easier looks.

Jordan would often attack quickly to get the defense off-balance. Slower developing plays give the defense more time to get set.

Lebron wins in a slower pace with less, jordan could only do that with a stacked team.

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[kamil]

6 >>>>> 3 :lol

6/6 > 3/7

LeBald STILL has a losing finals record.

[Dragonyeuw]

I would say definitely for 96-97, you could say the West had 3/4 next best teams. I would 98 there were more elite teams in the West too and I'm not sure if the Pacers are necessarily better than the the 4 teams in the West even if they gave the Bulls the toughest series. 92-93 is the best one on your list. Also 09-11 have an argument for the East(mainly 09 since 3/4 best teams in the East)..

That's a tough call, it comes down to matchups. Bear in mind that as talented as the Lakers were in 98, they lost 4-1 to an old Jazz team. The same Pacers team, much older, gave the prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers their toughest finals opponent. 98 Pacers were legit.

You have an argument for 09, can't see one for 10 and 11..hmmm arguable in terms of top tier.Mid-tier level IMO favored the west( though we've been debating top tier so I'm not going to move the posts for that one).

[TheWinningFam]

6/6 > 3/7

LeBald STILL has a losing finals record.

Lebron won 6 straight conference championships and before that went to the finals with mo willams as his second option with 2 different teams, which is more dominant than going 1-9 without 2 Hall of famers in pippen and phil

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[NBAGOAT]

That's a tough call, it comes down to matchups. Bear in mind that as talented as the Lakers were in 98, they lost 4-1 to an old Jazz team. The same Pacers team, much older, gave the prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers their toughest finals opponent. 98 Pacers were legit.

You have an argument for 09, can't see one for 10 and 11..hmmm arguable in terms of top tier.Mid-tier level IMO favored the west( though we've been debating top tier so I'm not going to move the posts for that one).

oh there's no doubt the rest of the West was better in 09 but we're arguing top tier as you said. Lakers did get owned by Jazz in 98 but part of that was a choke. Beating the Sonics even if it was Baker instead of Kemp 4-1 is also pretty impressive. I would say the 00 Pacers did get old in but also got better in other areas(rose instead of older Mullin) so it's not definitive they were better in 98. I agree 98 Pacers were legit, just not as sure as others they were the 3rd best team in the league and not sure the Bulls would need 7 games if they played again. I say the Lakers and Spurs both matchup fine with the Pacers, both have great big men who could score well. Not as sure about the Sonics but they were still really talented and more so than the Pacers.

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

So pace equates to quality of competition? Still awaiting your explanation.

[3ball]

Lebron had a bigger impact than jordan does on his teams


Nope - Lebron's teammates make up the gap between his stats and Jordan's stats, which allows Lebron to win equal or more games despite having inferior stats.

That's what happened Lebron's entire career, especially in 2009, when he won 19 more games than Jordan did in 1989, despite equal stats to Jordan... Or Lebron's rookie year, when he won equal games to Jordan's rookie year, even though rookie Jordan's stats were FAR better.. Lebron's teammates make up the gap.. It's statistical fact.. 2+2=4





Jordan won in 96-98 when he had a stacked team with pippen and rodman rodman was the best player in one of his championship games with 9 pts 19 rebounds.


PIPPEN 1996-1998 PLAYOFFS:. 17/7/5 on 40.8%
WADEF 2011-2014 PLAYOFFS:. 20/5/4 on 47.5%


Regarding Rodman - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs.





Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace


Jordan won 3 rings and 3 FMVP's from 96-98' at a slower pace than anything in Lebron's entire career.

Also, Lebron has never led a lottery team to a championship like Jordan did:


In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so without Jordan heading into the 1990 season, they were a lottery team and headed nowhere, but WITH Jordan they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 3-peat.. Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991.


Jordan was able to improve the team's chemistry over time, whereas Lebron has never improved a team over time - the 2011 Heat were the same as 2012 Heat, but they just choked; the 2015 Cavs were hurt; the 2007 Cavs never made the Finals again
.

[TheWinningFam]

Nope - Lebron's teammates make up the gap between his stats and Jordan's stats, which allows Lebron to win equal or more games despite having inferior stats.

That's what happened Lebron's entire career, especially in 2009, when he won 19 more games than Jordan did in 1989, despite equal stats to Jordan... Or Lebron's rookie year, when he won equal games to Jordan's rookie year, even though rookie Jordan's stats were FAR better.. Lebron's teammates make up the gap.. It's statistical fact.. 2+2=4



PIPPEN 1996-1998 PLAYOFFS:. 17/7/5 on 40.8%
WADEF 2011-2014 PLAYOFFS:. 20/5/4 on 47.5%


Regarding Rodman - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs.



Jordan won 3 rings and 3 FMVP's from 96-98' at a slower pace than anything in Lebron's entire career.

Also, Lebron has never led a lottery team to a championship like Jordan did:


In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so without Jordan heading into the 1990 season, they were a lottery team and headed nowhere, but WITH Jordan they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 3-peat.. Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991.

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

Lebron lead a 2015 lottery team to the finals with 2 injured starters and won the next year.
Rodman had 19 rebounds in the title clincher

Let that sink in :facepalm

[3ball]

Lebron lead a 2015 lottery team to the finals with 2 injured starters and won the next year.



Lebron's team was healthy all year - he didn't have a lottery roster until the Finals, where he lost.. He's never led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did:



In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so without Jordan heading into the 1990 season, they were a lottery team and headed nowhere, but WITH Jordan they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 3-peat.

Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991.. That's the goat impact on a lottery team
.

[Dragonyeuw]

So pace equates to quality of competition? Still awaiting your explanation.

Winningfam? Third time avoiding this question. :confusedshrug:

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron's team was healthy all year - he didn't have a lottery roster until the Finals, where he lost.. He's never led a lottery roster to a championship like Jordan did:



In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so without Jordan heading into the 1990 season, they were a lottery team and headed nowhere, but WITH Jordan they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 3-peat.

Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991.. That's the goat impact on a lottery team
.
Lebron got f.ucked by injuries.
Lebron won the chip against a better team than anything jordan faced in his career and it took 1 less year to do it. with the same roster.

Let that sink in.

[TheWinningFam]

Winningfam? Third time avoiding this question. :confusedshrug:
Lebron dominates a ''weak'' east with 2 different teams and goes to 6 straight finals starting at 26,
otoh, jordan struggled in an even weaker expansion era east WITH pippen and before pippen he was just 1-9 we can go by the fact that jordan played in a faster pace as a balancer for the 2-3 years lebron has over jordan in the league or the fact that lebron was just more dominant from the jump with less or the fact that he colluded with the white sox to play baseball to avoid the rockets, pick your poison. This would be like Lebron quitting after the warriors signed durant to play tight end for the browns. or pitch for the indians.

Lebron piloted the second best team in the league 4 more times than jordan and won 1 more mvp. In a tougher non expansion era. Lebron played with 1 hall of famer, Jordan played with 2-3 Hall of Famers Lebron went to 3 straight finals with 3 different head coaches,Starters injured and 2 of the coaches being rookies. AND WON against a 73-9 team, better than any team jordan faced in his career WHILE coming back from down 3-1 after dealing with injuries. and GOAT teams.Jordan won 3 titles with 2-3 hall of famers, against expansion era teams.. Head coach included.

Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron dominates a ''weak'' east with 2 different teams and goes to 6 straight finals starting at 26,
otoh, jordan struggled in an even weaker expansion era east WITH pippen and before pippen he was just 1-9 we can go by the fact that jordan played in a faster pace as a balancer for the 2-3 years lebron has over jordan in the league or the fact that lebron was just more dominant from the jump with less or the fact that he colluded with the white sox to play baseball to avoid the rockets, pick your poison. This would be like Lebron quitting after the warriors signed durant to play tight end for the browns. or pitch for the indians.

Lebron piloted the second best team in the league 4 more times than jordan and won 1 more mvp. In a tougher non expansion era. Lebron played with 1 hall of famer, Jordan played with 2-3 Hall of Famers Lebron went to 3 straight finals with 3 different head coaches,Starters injured and 2 of the coaches being rookies. AND WON against a 73-9 team, better than any team jordan faced in his career WHILE coming back from down 3-1 after dealing with injuries. and GOAT teams.Jordan won 3 titles with 2-3 hall of famers, against expansion era teams.. Head coach included.

Let that sink in.

That doesn't answer my question. You keep bringing up pace in the argument. The premise of your thread is debating their supporting casts. So, equate pace with quality of competition and quality of teammates. Stop throwing up irrelevant trolling shit. Serious answers only please.

Kind regards

[TheWinningFam]

That doesn't answer my question. You keep bringing up pace in the argument. The premise of your thread is debating their supporting casts. So, equate pace with quality of competition and quality of teammates. Stop throwing up irrelevant trolling shit. Serious answers only please.

Kind regards
Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.


Hmmmm.....

[TheWinningFam]

Hmmmm.....
It doesn't change the fact that,
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

It doesn't change the fact that,
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.


:applause: Exposed.

[TheWinningFam]

:applause: Exposed.
Exposed that lebron has always had less than jordan and does more

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

Exposed that lebron has always had less than jordan and does more

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


It doesn't change the fact that,
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.


Too late. :cheers:

[TheWinningFam]

Too late. :cheers:
Exactly, its too late cuz jordan retired, your argument is invalid and your mad cuz i copy n pasted from an alt attemping to use strawmans :facepalm

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

Exactly, its too late cuz jordan retired, your argument is invalid and your mad cuz i copy n pasted from an alt :facepalm

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Exposed that lebron has always had less than jordan and does more

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


It doesn't change the fact that,
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.


Oh yes. :lol

[TheWinningFam]

Oh yes. :lol
See strawman arguments, i won

[Dragonyeuw]

See strawman arguments, i won


Exposed that lebron has always had less than jordan and does more

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


It doesn't change the fact that,
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' lebron had the bigger impact he won double with less Let that sink in.


Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.


:hammerhead: