Statistical proof that Jordan faced greater defensive attention than Lebron

[3ball]

.
Lebron only averaged 2 points more than his 2nd option, so the Warriors' defense needed to focus on Kyrie nearly as much as Lebron - otoh, Jordan averaged 16 points more than his 2nd option in 91-93 Finals, so the defense focused on him far more than Pippen

The greater defensive attention is partly why Jordan's 91-93 Finals averages - 36/7/8 on 53% - are superior to Lebron's 30/11/9 on 49%.. Jordan also dominated throughout each series, so he never needed a 7th game, whereas Lebron averaged 24 ppg and 6 turnovers thru 4 games before averaging a Jordan-like 36 ppg in the last 3.

Btw, a team can win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but they can never win if they score less.. And since #1 options control the scoring and game flow more than anyone else (it's their job description), Jordan's scoring and per possession efficiency advantage is far more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 more assist achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.
.

[bond10]

3ball is the best poster I've ever seen. Provides facts, formats his entire post so it's easy to read, and provides gifs when necessary.

:applause:

[ShawkFactory]

What you're trying to claim very well may be true, but this certainly isn't "evidence" for it. :lol

[Hey Yo]

3ball is the best poster I've ever seen. Provides facts, formats his entire post so it's easy to read, and provides gifs when necessary.

:applause:
He's been busted many times fudging the numbers to work in MJ's favor but against LeBron.

For example

When LeBron shoots 39.8% 3ball calls that 39%

when MJ shoots 42.3% that = 43%

You can't believe all the numbers he posts when referring to the 2 players.

[3ball]

What you're trying to claim very well may be true, but this certainly isn't "evidence" for it. :lol


It's intuitive enough

a defense must divide their attention more equally if the 1st and 2nd option are equal scorers, whereas they will pay much more attention to the 1st option if he's scoring twice as much as the 2nd option.

the reality is that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920&page=2) ppg like Jordan did

[tpols]

.Btw, a team can win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but they can never win if they score less..
.



http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team
Lebron made his teammates better in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' in a faster paced era. Let that sink in.

[NBAGOAT]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

:lol

[ShawkFactory]

It's intuitive enough

a defense must divide their attention more equally if the 1st and 2nd option are equal scorers, whereas they will pay much more attention to the 1st option if he's scoring twice as much as the 2nd option.

the reality is that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920&page=2) ppg like Jordan did
How do you know that Kyrie scoring 27 a game wasn't a complete result of the defense focusing on stopping Lebron? What if he was singled the whole time like pippen was?

Provide some actual IN GAME evidence and I'll take your argument seriously.

[3ball]

How do you know that Kyrie scoring 27 a game wasn't a complete result of the defense focusing on stopping Lebron? What if he was singled the whole time like pippen was?

Provide some actual IN GAME evidence and I'll take your argument seriously.


Because we have a massive sample size of stats, plus the eye test that prove Kyrie is a bigger offensive threat - Pippen never scored anywhere near as well as Kyrie in any playoff run or series, even though he played alongside the greatest scorer of all time to attract defensive attention and get him "single" coverage, as you said.

Again, Jordan led the Bulls in scoring for every series by an average margin of 15 ppg - no one else is remotely close to this - this is evidence that he faced more defensive attention than Lebron, whose 2nd option scores nearly as well as he does.. No need to play dumb by requiring "video evidence", although there is plenty (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210)

[TheWinningFam]

Because we have a massive sample size of stats, plus the eye test that prove Kyrie is a bigger offensive threat - Pippen never scored anywhere near as well as Kyrie in any playoff run or series, even though he played alongside the greatest scorer of all time.

Again, Jordan led the Bulls in scoring for every series by an average margin of 15 ppg - no one else is remotely close to this - this is evidence that he faced more defensive attention than Lebron, whose 2nd option scores nearly as well as he does
Jordan was a good scorer, but scorers alone cant win, they need goat help

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[3ball]

Rookie Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Rookie Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team


The stats prove Lebron's supporting cast was better: rookie Lebron won an equal number of games as rookie Jordan, despite having FAR worse individual stats..

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast and play worse comp - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.





Jordan was a good scorer, but scorers alone cant win, they need goat help


A team can win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but they can never win if they score less.

And since #1 options control the scoring and game flow more than anyone else (it's their job description), Jordan's scoring and per possession efficiency advantage is far more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 more assist achieved via Westbrook-like time of possession.

[Trollsmasher]

this is not how empirical proof works, dumbass

doesn't change the fact that the defenses were worse anyway

[TheWinningFam]

The stats prove Lebron's supporting cast was better: rookie Lebron won an equal number of games as rookie Jordan, despite having FAR worse individual stats..

The only way Lebron can win the same number of games with worse individual performance is to have a better supporting cast - this concept applies to Lebron's entire career versus Jordan.



A team can win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but they can never win if they score less.

And since #1 options control the scoring and game flow more than anyone else (it's their job description), Jordan's scoring and per possession efficiency advantage is far more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 more assist achieved via Westbrook-like time of possession.

Jordan's scoring and effeciency rating is due to a faster pace
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[TommyGriffin]

Jordan's scoring and effeciency rating is due to a faster pace
How does Jordan's efficiency get a benefit from a higher pace? A higher pace has nothing to do with boosting efficiency.

[ShawkFactory]

Because we have a massive sample size of stats, plus the eye test that prove Kyrie is a bigger offensive threat - Pippen never scored anywhere near as well as Kyrie in any playoff run or series, even though he played alongside the greatest scorer of all time to attract defensive attention and get him "single" coverage, as you said.

Again, Jordan led the Bulls in scoring for every series by an average margin of 15 ppg - no one else is remotely close to this - this is evidence that he faced more defensive attention than Lebron, whose 2nd option scores nearly as well as he does.. No need to play dumb by requiring "video evidence", although there is plenty (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210)
First of all, 7 games is not a massive sample size.

Second, wouldn't it also be intuitive that since Kyrie scored more than he ever has in a playoff series, that he received LESS defensive attention than he normally does?

[Hey Yo]

Once Pippen practically shut down Magic from the 2nd game on of 1991 Finals....he wasn't asked to be a scorer first for the rest of his time with Chicago (outside of MJ quitting in 94)

They knew how much energy it takes to be expected to do guard the best player and be the number 1 scoring option. So MJ scored while Scottie was assigned the opposing teams best player/ non-Center.

[TheWinningFam]

How does Jordan's efficiency get a benefit from a higher pace? A higher pace has nothing to do with boosting efficiency.
A faster pace allows for more room to statpad

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[TommyGriffin]

A faster pace allows for more room to statpad

Slower pace allows for greater efficiency. Is it easier for someone to make a shot when they have 5 seconds or when they have 1 second? More time makes it easier to make buckets which makes scoring more efficient. Slower pace equals easier opportunities to be efficient.

[TheWinningFam]

Slower pace allows for greater efficiency. Is it easier for someone to make a shot when they have 5 seconds or when they have 1 second? More time makes it easier to make buckets which makes scoring more efficient. Slower pace equals easier opportunities to be efficient.
Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team with a slower pace


Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team with a faster pace when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Kawhi]

they can never win if they score less.. .
:bowdown:

[ShawkFactory]

Slower pace doesn't necessarily lead to easier shots. Not at all really.

Faster pace leads to more defensive disarray, and often times easier looks.

Jordan would often attack quickly to get the defense off-balance. Slower developing plays give the defense more time to get set.

[SecondTake]

No, this can also be explained by defenses putting enormous focus on Pippen, thus creating the large scoring disparity between Jordan and Pippen. Pippen sucked all the defense out of the paint leaving wide open lanes for Mj.

[3ball]

First of all, 7 games is not a massive sample size.


But Pippen's entire playoff career is though.

And he's never scored anywhere NEAR Kyrie's Finals and playoff performance, even though the goat scorer was attracting all the attention away from Pippen and leaving him "singled" all the time, like you said.





Second, wouldn't it also be intuitive that since Kyrie scored more than he ever has in a playoff series, that he received LESS defensive attention than he normally does?


So Jordan received LESS attention when he dropped 63 on the Celtics?

That makes no sense..

Also, it isn't coincidence that Lebron shot 39% last year without Kyrie to divert attention away from him - but WITH Kyrie, he shoots 10 percentage points better.. :eek:

[Nash]

.
Lebron only averaged 2 points more than his 2nd option, so the Warriors' defense needed to focus on Kyrie nearly as much as Lebron - otoh, Jordan averaged 16 points more than his 2nd option in 91-93 Finals, so the defense focused on him far more than Pippen

The greater defensive attention is partly why Jordan's 91-93 Finals averages - 36/7/8 on 53% - are superior to Lebron's 30/11/9 on 49%.. Jordan also dominated throughout each series, so he never needed a 7th game, whereas Lebron averaged 24 ppg and 6 turnovers thru 4 games before averaging a Jordan-like 36 ppg in the last 3.

Btw, a team can win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but they can never win if they score less.. And since #1 options control the scoring and game flow more than anyone else (it's their job description), Jordan's scoring and per possession efficiency advantage is far more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 more assist achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.
.
or or or, lebron so good that other teams feel they'd rather get beat by letting kyrie stay open then focusing less on lebron

2 can play this game 3ball

[3ball]

or lebron so good that other teams feel they'd rather get beat by letting kyrie stay open then focusing less on lebron


So the same logic should apply to Pippen, since he played with a far more dangerous scorer than Lebron.

Pip played with the GOAT scorer, who averaged nearly 6 more points than Lebron in the playoffs, with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg).

But nonetheless, for Pippen's entire playoff career, he never scored anywhere near Kyrie's level from these latest playoffs and Finals.. Kyrie was simply a bigger scoring threat that the defense had to pay more attention to, which is why Lebron shot 10 points better in these Finals than last year.





or or or


You think i'm just making things up like you?

These are facts - we know for a fact that Lebron was double-teamed only 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals... Otoh, Jordan was frequently double-teamed 10+ times in a single QUARTER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

So I'm the one posting facts, and you're the one spit-balling - don't confuse me with you.

[ShawkFactory]

But Pippen's entire playoff career is though.

And he's never scored anywhere NEAR Kyrie's Finals and playoff performance, even though the goat scorer was attracting all the attention away from Pippen and leaving him "singled" all the time, like you said.



So Jordan received LESS attention when he dropped 63 on the Celtics?

That makes no sense..

Also, it isn't coincidence that Lebron shot 39% last year without Kyrie to divert attention away from him - but WITH Kyrie, he shoots 10 percentage points better.. :eek:
You've made a double digit amount of threads about how little defensive attention Bron received in the finals last year, so don't even try to go there.

And you need a sample size for both players to try and make the conclusion you did in the OP, not just Pippen.

[dankok8]

Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).



If you want to argue that the style of game in Jordan's era was tougher because of hand checking, no 3-second rule, and lack of spacing that's fine. Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then. The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today. A defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today. Not that he wasn't a great shooter but Jordan may well be forced to shoot far more contested jump shots if he played today. Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with a few other players to discourage him from driving. Cconsidering his bread and butter was inside the arc, those long twos aren't the most efficient shots even for a shooter as good as him.

Stylistically the game is simply different. It's hard to know how it would pan out. It makes for an interesting discussion but that's about it.

[3ball]

You've made a double digit amount of threads about how little defensive attention Bron received in the finals last year, so don't even try to go there.


He received the same attention or less in these Finals!! except he wasn't clearing out as much

You should understand that in today's spaced-out courts, you can't double-team as easily as you used to - the court is spaced-out and defenders are coming from a further distance, which makes the open man obvious and harder to get to and/or recover rotationally.

I don't even need to watch the games to know that Lebron was barely doubled in these Finals - the spacing simply makes that kind of old-school, overt double-teaming too punitive.





And you need a sample size for both players to try and make the conclusion you did in the OP, not just Pippen.


Pippen's entire career will do - it proves he's NEVER been the type of scoring threat Kyrie was in these playoffs - not even close.

Also, eye test and common sense will tell you that Kyrie is superior offensive threat than Pippen.
.

[Nash]

So the same logic should apply to Pippen, since he played with a far more dangerous scorer than Lebron.

Pip played with the GOAT scorer, who averaged nearly 6 more points than Lebron in the playoffs, with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg).

But nonetheless, for Pippen's entire playoff career, he never scored anywhere near Kyrie's level from these latest playoffs and Finals.. Kyrie was simply a bigger scoring threat that the defense had to pay more attention to, which is why Lebron shot 10 points better in these Finals than last year.



You think i'm just making things up like you?

These are facts - we know for a fact that Lebron was double-teamed only 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals... Otoh, Jordan was frequently double-teamed 10+ times in a single QUARTER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

So I'm the one posting facts, and you're the one spit-balling - don't confuse me with you.
you want to know a fact? Nobody is saying Lebron is the GOAT.

Stop getting pissed off about something only you think about.

[SecondTake]

No, this can also be explained by defenses putting enormous focus on Pippen, thus creating the large scoring disparity between Jordan and Pippen. Pippen sucked all the defense out of the paint leaving wide open lanes for Mj.

Sorry 3ball I think I got you.

[3ball]

.




That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs.




MJ's championship runs had the SAME pace in the playoffs and Finals than Lebron's runs:


PLAYOFFS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1991.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.3
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html#all_misc_stats):. 91.7
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.8
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.1
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1997.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.2
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998.html#all_misc_stats):. 85.9

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011.html#all_misc_stats):. 87.8
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.0
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013.html#all_misc_stats):. 89.5
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014.html#all_misc_stats):. 90.6
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats):. 94.4
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2016.html#all_misc_stats):. 93.0


FINALS:



1991 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):. 85.8
1992 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):. 92.3
1993 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):. 89.7
1996 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):. 83.5
1997 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):. 84.0
1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):. 82.0

2007 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html):. 82.8
2011 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html):. 85.5
2012 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html):. 88.6
2013 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-finals-spurs-vs-heat.html):. 88.1
2014 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html):. 87.4
2015 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 90.7
2016 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-warriors.html):. 92.0



Jordan also won 3 rings from 96-98' where pace and league PPG was slower than today's game in regular season, including lower DRtg in 1998 than Lebron ever faced.

So your idea that Jordan benefited from faster pace is wrong..

Furthermore, it's statistical fact that today's game fastbreaks more (due to long rebounds from more 3-pointers):



Fastbreak points 2016: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
Fastbreak points 1997: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season






Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9



Offensive Rebounding Rate 1991: 32.3%
Offensive Rebounding Rate 2016: 23.2%


Previous eras had higher offensive rebounding rate due to the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken, which have a higher offensive rebounding rate than 3-pointers.

Higher offensive rebounding rate results in a higher ORtg-DRtg calculation.. Since the calculation is biased based on style of play, it can't be used to compare across eras.







Another person can counter that by pointing out that zone defense was illegal back then.



Zone defense is illegal today inside the paint, where defenders must stay within "armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html)" to remain in the paint, which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible other than having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder..

Otoh, defenders in previous eras didn't have to be within "armslength" - Per Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, they could remain in the "inside" lane "with no time limit" if their man was within 3 feet outside the "outside" lane on either side (the "outside" lane is the outer partition running up both sides of the paint, shown below).

https://www.basketballgoalstore.com/wp-content/uploads/half-court-narrow.jpg






The strong side may well be packed but players weren't allowed to hover like their do today.


When the strongside is packed with defenders, there will be defenders already standing where today's weakside defenders would "hover" or flood to.. That's the point of weakside spacing - to draw defenders away from the strongside and force a team to flood a defender back.

Here's an example where DeAndre Jordan has flooded to the strongside, AFTER his man initially drew him to the weakside - notice how weakside spacing has drawn all strongside defenders away, which necessitates that DeAndre flood to become only the 2nd strongside defender:


http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg



Now here's Jordan catching the ball in the same spot and facing 4 guys standing where DeAndre had flooded to - there's no shooters on the far weakside, so defenders remain on the strongside:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif




CONTINUED...
.

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED






A defender could either stick to their man



When you say "stick" to their man, you realize that defenders were allowed to sag off their man in previous eras right??.

Defenders in the paint didn't have to stay within "armslength" like today's defender - and when an offensive player was behind the 3-point line, their defender could sag off and dip into the paint for 3 seconds just like today's defender.. This is obvious by watching the games and the rules explicitly say this:


2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds.

http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html



When today's offensive player is between the FT line and 3-point line, the defender can stay in the "middle defensive area" (upper part of the paint) for as long as they want:


2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area", his defensive man may not be lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds



Finally, when a defender is guarding someone standing behind the corner/sideline 3-point line, they can paint-camp in the "outside" lane (the outer partition running up both sides of the paint) with no time limit, and in the "inside" lane, for 2.9 seconds:


2a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.







The strong side may well be packed

but a defender could either stick to their man or throw a hard double which is far easier to beat with a simple pass than a soft double that zones allow today.



You have it backwards - when defenders are all bunched up on the strongside, ball movement is far less effective.. The ball can't be moved well or swung around when every player is standing near the paint in close proximity.. Spacing makes ball movement easier and MORE effective because defenders are more spaced-out, which is why spacing is the biggest focus of today's teams.

Also, today's defensive 3 second rule forces defenders to move their feet much more when the ball is swung around the perimeter - they must move from outside the paint on one side, to outside the paint on the other side..

Otoh, players in previous eras were in the paint and just had to turn their head/body like a swivel chair when the ball was swung, without moving their feet at all.. Better yet, the ball usually wasn't swung around the perimeter like it is today because teams barely shot 3-pointers so players weren't positioned behind the line.. Without spacing, defenders simply didn't need to move their feet as much.






MJ may be forced to shoot more contested jump shots today.


Today's hands-off mandate on the perimeter would keep his IMMEDIATE defenders off him and give him more open jumpshots than before.. And today's spacing would keep the HELP defenders further away than they were in previous eras.. So no






Guys would give him a foot of space and shadow him with extra defenders



A foot of space is too much!!... And NOTHING discourages driving like an entire defense already waiting in the paint:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


No player can bulldoze THROUGH players, which is why every scorer in previous eras had ridiculous midrange - players were forced to pull-up from midrange since the lack of 3-point shooting left the paints overcrowded on a perpetual basis.

This is why Lebron would be worse back then - his midrange and shooting touch is horrible






long twos aren't the most efficient shots


MJ shot about 50% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) from midrange, so he'd thrive against today's defenses that GIVE UP midrange in favor of guarding 3-pointers and preventing excessive tardiness in closing the open paint on drives.
.

[Hey Yo]

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

[dankok8]

3ball

Only in the late 90's and the Bulls 2nd three peat was the pace and DRtg on par with today. Earlier on in the late 80's and even early 90's, both DRtg and pace were significantly higher.

You keep making the argument that offensive rebounding is higher on 2pt attempts when that simply isn't true. 3pt attempts lead to longer rebounds and are statistically more likely to be grabbed by the offensive team. That's common sense and a simple basketball fact.

You also seem to ignore that offensive rebounding is inversely related to transition defense. Teams that attack the glass have a harder time getting back and teams that run back rarely grab offensive boards. Teams back then had more transition opportunities than today as a result of that. That's also partly why the game was more physical and teams fouled more.

In fact the reason the Bad Boy Pistons were so effective is not just field goal defense but because they ran back. They made Jordan and the Bulls play in the half court and they grinded the game to a halt. I just watched the 1990 ECF the other day and realized just how few easy baskets the Bulls could get especially in Game 7. The pace of that particular game was 82.7.

I know the 3 second defensive rules and the zone rules. Prior to 2001, playing zone was outlawed in the NBA. See these rules from NBA.com.




1981-1982 Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.


2001-2002 Illegal defense guidelines will be eliminated in their entirety.
A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

These rules essentially mean that the defensive player had to stay very close to the offensive player and guard him man to man. And any doubles had to be hard doubles which left the defense vulnerable if the correct pass was made.

And this is evident from watching basketball of that era. Man to man defense with hand-checking was the norm with a big guy camping in the middle. Today with no hand-checking it's easier to beat your man but you easily get funneled into big crowds and face soft doubles which are harder to beat.

We saw this in the 2016 Finals. When TT was on the floor, the Warriors were that much better at defending Lebron because TT's man which was usually Draymond Green could afford to guard an area of the floor to discourage or stop Lebron's drive. Essentially Green can help cover Lebron while also having enough time to catch up to TT if Lebron throws a pass to him. With hard doubles this scenario isn't possible. Green must either commit to a hard double on Lebron in which case Thompson rolls to the rim and Lebron likely finds him for a dunk. Or Green stays on Thompson in which case Lebron often beats his man and gets to the rim with Green not having the time/angle to help.

With Love in the game of course, Green was handcuffed even with today's rules. Green had to stay on him because of his shooting prowess and couldn't help on Lebron's drives. However even in today's era of spacing, there aren't many stretch bigs and most teams still have a few non-shooters on the floor. Except Golden State... That's why there were so deadly offensively. The floor is always spaced with those guys.



In Jordan's era, elite offensive teams had post up players and multiple playmakers. In today's era, elite offensive teams have shooters and mutiple playmakers. Moving the ball is important either way but the game has shifted from inside to the perimeter. Back to the basket bigs got replaced with mobile bigs and slashing guards are getting replaced by sharpshooters. They are different styles and neither is necessarily better than the other but today's defenses are statistically better. Whatever that means... hehe

[OnFire]

It's intuitive enough

a defense must divide their attention more equally if the 1st and 2nd option are equal scorers, whereas they will pay much more attention to the 1st option if he's scoring twice as much as the 2nd option.

the reality is that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920&page=2) ppg like Jordan did

That's because he was a ball hog.

[3ball]

offensive rebounding is NOT higher on 2pt attempts



It is, but regardless of whether you want to believe it, the fact is that previous eras had higher offensive rebounding rate, which increased the points scored per 100 possessions (ORtg):



Looking at the league-average level, the takeaway is this: an NBA team generally improves on offense by about 0.62 points per 100 possessions for each percentage point increase in its offensive rebound rate. This means that if NBA teams were to improve their offensive rebounding from 23% (where it is now) to 30% (where it was a few years ago), they would generally score about 4.3 points more per 100 possessions.

https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/the-value-of-improved-offensive-rebounding/
http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/01/06/offensive-rebounds-and-three-pointers/




From Grantland:


The general conclusion the authors presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in March, based on data from the 2011-12 season, was that teams could net about four extra points per game by recalibrating their philosophy toward offensive rebounding — that teams were being too cautious.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/party-crashers-debunking-the-myths-of-offensive-rebounding-and-transition-defense/


The higher offensive rebounding rate of previous eras is why you're wrong for comparing DRtg across eras..

The reality is that big men guard the perimeter in today's game, so they can't offensive rebound like they used to when they were camped under the rim for the entire possession.






In fact the reason the Bad Boy Pistons were so effective is not just field goal defense but because they ran back. They made Jordan and the Bulls play in the half court and they grinded the game to a halt. I just watched the 1990 ECF the other day and realized just how few easy baskets the Bulls could get especially in Game 7. The pace of that particular game was 82.7.


Did you see the PACE statistics posted previously (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12526636&postcount=32)??... Jordan played at the same pace as Lebron in the playoffs and Finals for all his championship runs.

Jordan also won 3 rings where pace was slower in the REGULAR SEASON than today's game and anything Lebron has ever faced - so your idea that Jordan benefited from faster pace is wrong on all counts.

You should be aware that pace has ALWAYS slowed down in the playoffs regardless of era - pace was 94.0 in 1988 playoffs, compared to 94.4 in 2016 playoffs..





Teams had more transition opportunities than today as a result of crashing the boards more and not being able to get back as much.


Not during Jordan's 2nd three-peat - transition was LESS during Jordan's 2nd three-peat:


Fastbreak points 2016: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
Fastbreak points 1997: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


Transition, pace AND ppg was all lower during Jordan's 2nd three-peat than today's game, which destroys the new fan idea that Jordan wouldn't be the best at a slower pace - he won 3 rings, all the scoring titles and FMVP's at a slower pace than Lebron has ever experienced.



CONTINUED....

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED...





I know the 3 second defensive rules and the zone rules. Prior to 2001, playing zone was outlawed in the NBA.


Apparently you don't - you keep saying today's game allows zone, when today's defensive 3 seconds rule BANS zone in the paint - the rule requires that defenders stay within "armslength", to remain in the paint, which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder..

Paint defenders in previous eras didn't have to be within "armslength" of their man to remain in the paint, and therefore had more freedom defending the most important area of the floor: the paint.

The paint defense in prior eras destroys today's wide open paints where defenders must come from OUTSIDE the paint to help, rather than already being there waiting like previous eras.







These rules essentially means that the defensive player had to stay very close to the offensive player and guard him man to man.




This is factually incorrect - in the gif below, Hornacek and Stockton aren't standing "very close" Kukoc and Kerr, who are in the corners - they are sagging off to the edge of the paint, just like today's players are allowed - this was standard man-to-man defense:


http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-02-2015/p6jsvL.gif



Notice Isiah Thomas paint-camping while his man is behind the 3-point line - this was standard and allowed by the Illegal Defense Guidelines I posted earlier:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif



One of the biggest misconceptions by new fans who never played basketball themselves is that man-to-man defense forces the defender to stay close to their man.. Man-to-man defense allows defenders to sag off their man, and that's how the defense is TAUGHT - defenders are benched if they're hugging their man too much.

A cursory glance at footage of previous eras shows that defenders don't have to stand near their man - and I posted the actual RULES in previous posts which state that defenders could sag off their man in most instances just like today's defender.






Today with no hand-checking it's easier to beat your man but you easily get funneled into big crowds and face soft doubles which are harder to beat


Your narrative about today's shading, floating and hovering IS ALL NEGATED BY THE LACK OF SPACING.. All that stuff was naturally occurring in unspaced environments because defenders are closer together and already standing where today's "floaters" would be - it's amazing that today's fan can't understand how SPACING CREATES THE NEED for today's extra defensive movements.

And there is no such thing as "big crowds" in today's game - the court is spaced, which is the opposite of "big crowds" and the paint is wide open on every play due to 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds..






We saw this in the 2016 Finals. When TT was on the floor, the Warriors were that much better at defending Lebron because TT's man which was usually Draymond Green could afford to guard an area of the floor to discourage or stop Lebron's drive. Essentially Green can help cover Lebron while also having enough time to catch up to TT if Lebron throws a pass to him. With hard doubles this scenario isn't possible.


You clearly lack the proper information to make viable assessments regarding PNR shading - PNR shading was LEGAL and STANDARD in previous eras:

gifs of PNR Shading Part I (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10707413&postcount=106)
gifs of PNR Shading Part II (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10707418&postcount=107)






Except Golden State - the floor was so spaced with those guys


Golden State AND Cleveland attempted 30 threes per game this season, so both teams had exceptional spacing compared to Jordan's Bulls, who only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991.

Jordan's environment was tougher because he DIDN'T have spacing and Lebron DID... But for you, somehow basketball WITH spacing is harder... :hammerhead:

Also, your narrative about today's shading, floating and hovering IS ALL NEGATED BY THE LACK OF SPACING.. All that stuff was naturally occurring in unspaced environments because defenders are already closer together - it's amazing that today's fan can't understand how SPACING CREATES THE NEED for today's extra defensive movements.






In Jordan's era, elite offensive teams had post up players and multiple playmakers. In today's era, elite offensive teams have shooters and mutiple playmakers. Moving the ball is important either way but the game has shifted from inside to the perimeter. Back to the basket bigs got replaced with mobile bigs and slashing guards are getting replaced by sharpshooters. They are different styles and neither is necessarily better than the other but today's defenses are statistically better.


Jordan dominated the golden age of big men, so he'd destroy today's game, which is designed for the perimeter player (hands-off defense and wider driving lanes from spacing).

Also, today's defenses aren't statistically better, since DRtg is influenced by offensive rebounding rate, which was higher in previous eras due to style of play.
.

[aj1987]

3ball is like a libtard. When someone who knows their shit completely wrecks him, he choses to ignore everything that destroys his argument and cherrypicks statements. Not to mention the fact that most of his "facts" are in fact not facts.

[K.dot ShowTime]

3ball is like a libtard. When someone who knows their shit completely wrecks him, he choses to ignore everything that destroys his argument and cherrypicks statements. Not to mention the fact that most of his "facts" are in fact not facts.

shut up moron. 3ball is GOAT poster he owns all of you LeCollude's fans

[aj1987]

shut up moron. 3ball is GOAT poster he owns all of you LeCollude's fans
Another retard pops up. :roll: :roll: