2016 Cavs vs 2001 Lakers

[sportjames23]

Lebron and them beat the team with the best regular season record in history. How do they do against the team with the best post season record in history?

[Quickening]

Peak Shaq versus LeKing, clash of the titans.

[sportjames23]

King Kong vs Godzilla

[Bankaii]

Depends on the rules. Is it today or is Shaq allowed elbow everyone.

If the refs let things go, Shaq drops 35/10 easily. TT is just too small and post injury Mozgov isn't a great rim protector anymore.

Nobody on the Lakers can shut down Bron/Kyrie but love would be useless.
Kobe would be horrible as per usual in the Finals.

Despite LeBeast Lakers in 7, Shaq is the MDE for a reason.

[sportjames23]

Depends on the rules. Is it today or is Shaq allowed elbow everyone.

If the refs let things go, Shaq drops 35/10 easily. TT is just too small and post injury Mozgov isn't a great rim protector anymore.

Nobody on the Lakers can shut down Bron/Kyrie but love would be useless.
Kobe would be horrible as per usual in the Finals.

Despite LeBeast Lakers in 7, Shaq is the MDE for a reason.

:oldlol: I saw that.

Let's say it's today's rules.

[raprap]

Cavs in 7

[Bankaii]

:oldlol: I saw that.

Let's say it's today's rules.
I tried to be sneaky:oldlol:

But today I dot know anymore. Shaq would be in foul trouble every game.
Cavs in 7.

[NZStreetBaller]

Coach lue playing for the lakers. Can you imagine

[Smoke117]

The nba was a joke in the early 2000s and NO team was some all time great team in that period...especially when the Lakers had Shaq who was by far the best and most impactful player in the league at the time.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lakers in 5 unless lecoward has some1 suspended

#strive4greatness

[I<3NBA]

is this a joke? The Cavs would be obliterated. no one is stopping Shaq.

on the other hand. they could play Kobe like the Pistons did. just dared him to shoot the Lakers out of games.

[aj1987]

Shaq would murder the Cavs. 40/20 and the series would be over in 5, unless LeBron/Kyrie go absolutely bonkers.

[plowking]

Shaq would murder the Cavs. 40/20 and the series would be over in 5, unless LeBron/Kyrie go absolutely bonkers.

Don't think he goes off that much. He was putting up 35/15 series on way worse big men. He probably still goes off for 30/15 or something to that effect.

[aj1987]

Don't think he goes off that much. He was putting up 35/15 series on way worse big men. He probably still goes off for 30/15 or something to that effect.
The guy put up 28/13/6/3 on 60% in his third season against Hakeem and 33/16/5/3 on 57% against DPOY Mutombo. IMO, Shaq would absolutely massacre Love/TT/Moz.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe would be horrible as per usual in the Finals.



So basically he'd be like Curry, except not a liability on the defensive side, as Kyrie so aptly demonstrated.

[feyki]

4-2 LA .

Lebron - 28-10-8-2-1.5-%55 TS

Irving - 27-5-5-2-1-%58 TS

Shaq - 32-16-3-0.5-3-%60 TS

Kobe - 30-6-6-2.5-1-%58 TS

[I<3NBA]

4-2 LA .

Lebron - 28-10-8-2-1.5-%55 TS

Irving - 27-5-5-2-1-%58 TS

Shaq - 32-16-3-0.5-3-%60 TS

Kobe - 30-6-6-2.5-1-%58 TS
:rolleyes:

[SouBeachTalents]

4-2 LA .

Lebron - 28-10-8-2-1.5-%55 TS

Irving - 27-5-5-2-1-%58 TS

Shaq - 32-16-3-0.5-3-%60 TS

Kobe - 30-6-6-2.5-1-%58 TS

Kobe has only put up comparable numbers to that in 1/7 of his Finals appearances, with a much lower TS% to boot :lol

[tpols]

Cleveland pros

Great three point shooting.. could potentially go off by using shaq as the hedge man in PnRs. Especially kyrie, since he would get anything he liked from midrange in that scenario as the paint would still be packed. Their small ball could possibly tire LA as well, but both teams are using kinda short rotations.

Cleveland Cons

Their bread and butter, drive with their two superstars and finish or dish would be greatly hampered by having to contend w/ one of the strongest paints in history of basketball. No easy buckets around the rim.



Lakers Pros

The Cavs have an extremely weak paint w/ Tristan and Love down low. Not only would Shaq feast but Kobe would smash on them all day long. Remember bron kiddies.. 01 Kobe was smashing on Duncan and D-Rob twin towers.. Love and Thompson are child's play by comparison. And of course the midrange would be open all day as we even saw a homeless man's Kobe in Shaun Livingston torch the Cavs from that range.

Laker Cons

Guarding small ball line ups.. Shaq being drawn out of the paint and having to close on guys like channing Frye. This could bite them in the ass. Hack a Shaq could also slow LA's offensive efficiency, and pace to a crawl.. then again w/ Clevelands bigs in foul trouble it could help later on, but it is still a worry.



overall should be close, but Lakers should be able to wear them down.. the Cavs have never played a paint that strong.. and have made a living off feasting on teams with weak paints.

[tpols]

Kobe has only put up comparable numbers to that in 1/7 of his Finals appearances, with a much lower TS% to boot :lol

you're not looking at the matchup logically.. all the teams Kobe faced in the Finals had better defenses than the Cavs and stronger paints except for the Nets.. who not coincidentally Kobe did well against.

Evaluate the matchups. The Cavs defense would get slaughtered.. the question is could they outpace LA with their 3 pt shooting and iso mismatch ability.

[raprap]

This series would go 7 and I wouldn't bet against the greatest game 7 performer of all time.


LeBeast

[Quickening]

you're not looking at the matchup logically.. all the teams Kobe faced in the Finals had better defenses than the Cavs and stronger paints except for the Nets.. who not coincidentally Kobe did well against.

Evaluate the matchups. The Cavs defense would get slaughtered.. the question is could they outpace LA with their 3 pt shooting and iso mismatch ability.

You do not know basketball

[MintBerryCrunch]

I say Cavs. They have the mental fortitude to come back from down 3-1 in the Finals. I'm sure they won't get shook by the Lakers.

[TomCat]

Lakers in 5 unless lecoward has some1 suspended

#strive4greatness

Cavs in 4.

The Cavs are just too stacked.

McCrae is a 12th man and he lights it up.

[Bankaii]

4-2 LA .

Lebron - 28-10-8-2-1.5-%55 TS

Irving - 27-5-5-2-1-%58 TS

Shaq - 32-16-3-0.5-3-%60 TS

Kobe - 30-6-6-2.5-1-%58 TS
By far one of the top 5 dumbest posters on this forum.

There's so many things wrong with this shit post it would be easier to say what's right about it:oldlol:

[G0ATbe]

Well... seeing as a 35 year old Kobe was able to shut down a prime LeBald, block his shot like 3 times in a row. Think it's safe to say it'd pretty much be Kyrie/Love vs Kobe/Shaq.

Kobe would psycologically and physically dominate LeBald to the point where he'd be leaving at halftime with cramps/diarrhea every game.

Kyrie would feast on Fishers bum ass, probably steal a game with a Kobe-esque performance. Lakers in 5. Cavs are easily more stacked but it's a horrible matchup for them.

[tpols]

By far one of the top 5 dumbest posters on this forum.

There's so many things wrong with this shit post it would be easier to say what's right about it:oldlol:


feyki is a good poster .. nothin wrong with his post there either way.. you otoh are ****ing awful lol.

[Da_Realist]

Lakers in five. How can Cleveland hurt LA?

[warriorfan]

By far one of the top 5 dumbest posters on this forum.

There's so many things wrong with this shit post it would be easier to say what's right about it:oldlol:

Uh oh here comes another meltdown followed by some ortg shitposting :roll:

[Bankaii]

feyki is a good poster .. nothin wrong with his post there either way.. you otoh are ****ing awful lol.
Of course a Kobetard would agree with that post.
Kobe has NEVER put up those numbers before and now all of sudden he can?

Your opinion is about as credible as Kobe's case over Lebron:roll:

[Bankaii]

Uh oh here comes another meltdown followed by some ortg shitposting :roll:
Lapdog following me around again.
You want a treat bud?:oldlol:

[oh the horror]

The only way you'd say Cavs is because you're trolling due to Kobe.


Beside the duo of a prime Shaq and Kobe you had a hell of a lot smarter role players on that team.

This question is ridiculous. Those saying Cavs are downright sad.

[ShawkFactory]

Boiled down..lakers in 6, like everyone else has said.

Kyrie and bron would be a load to deal with but the Cavs literally have no one who can remotely slow shaq down.

They'd wear him down in a game or two but shit...it ain't happening for a full series. Not even a little bit.

Then you add Kobe to the mix? That's game

Cavs would win 2 games because Lebron would go off in one and Kyrie the other. Shaq would get in foul trouble and Kobe might be a little bit off.

The series wouldn't be all that close.

[Da_Realist]

I really doubt Lebron would go off in this series. His style would work against him. If you don't think Phil Jackson and his staff wouldn't figure out Lebron is the head of the snake and try to cut him off (the ball), you don't know basketball. The Lakers have a few guys they can assign to Lebron to make his life a living hell. I can see Kobe taking on the challenge of defending Lebron as soon as he leaves the locker room. That would be Kobe's main objective -- more than scoring 30 points. He'd stick close to him and force Lebron to give up the ball. The Lakers have several guys that could give Kobe a rest when needed like Rick Fox and Robert Horry.

Lebron is least effective without the ball and he's also least assertive, frequently standing in the corner when someone else has the ball. He couldn't bully his way into the post for chippies because Shaq is down there. So Lebron would need to consistently rely on off the ball skill, quick strikes and jumpshots to have a great series here. Pounding the ball for 15 seconds waiting on a play to develop or bullying his way into the post wouldn't work well against this team. I really doubt LA would double him more than occasionally so his teammates would be held in check. And on the other end, he'd need to defend Kobe. Kobe would make Lebron work on both ends of the floor.

As a result, Cleveland would be taken out of their game and struggle. The reason I said LA in 5 is because I figure the Lakers would lose focus for a game and maybe Lebron and/or Kyrie would pick up the crumbs and eek out a win.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Cavs already beat the best team of all-time. They probably beat LA in 5 or 6. the Lakers 01 Lakers beat a bunch of tomato cans. Old Spurs, and one of the least talented teams ever to make the Finals (01 Sixers). Literally have no one to guard LeBron or Irving. Only person on LA that would go off is Shaq.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I really doubt Lebron would go off in this series. His style would work against him. If you don't think Phil Jackson and his staff wouldn't figure out Lebron is the head of the snake and try to cut him off (the ball), you don't know basketball. The Lakers have a few guys they can assign to Lebron to make his life a living hell. I can see Kobe taking on the challenge of defending Lebron as soon as he leaves the locker room. That would be Kobe's main objective -- more than scoring 30 points. He'd stick close to him and force Lebron to give up the ball. The Lakers have several guys that could give Kobe a rest when needed like Rick Fox and Robert Horry.

Lebron is least effective without the ball and he's also least assertive, frequently standing in the corner when someone else has the ball. He couldn't bully his way into the post for chippies because Shaq is down there. So Lebron would need to consistently rely on off the ball skill, quick strikes and jumpshots to have a great series here. Pounding the ball for 15 seconds waiting on a play to develop or bullying his way into the post wouldn't work well against this team. I really doubt LA would double him more than occasionally so his teammates would be held in check. And on the other end, he'd need to defend Kobe. Kobe would make Lebron work on both ends of the floor.

As a result, Cleveland would be taken out of their game and struggle. The reason I said LA in 5 is because I figure the Lakers would lose focus for a game and maybe Lebron and/or Kyrie would pick up the crumbs and eek out a win.

Already has the GOAT Finals series against the best team of all-time.

[aj1987]

I really doubt Lebron would go off in this series. His style would work against him. If you don't think Phil Jackson and his staff wouldn't figure out Lebron is the head of the snake and try to cut him off (the ball), you don't know basketball. The Lakers have a few guys they can assign to Lebron to make his life a living hell. I can see Kobe taking on the challenge of defending Lebron as soon as he leaves the locker room. That would be Kobe's main objective -- more than scoring 30 points. He'd stick close to him and force Lebron to give up the ball. The Lakers have several guys that could give Kobe a rest when needed like Rick Fox and Robert Horry.

Lebron is least effective without the ball and he's also least assertive, frequently standing in the corner when someone else has the ball. He couldn't bully his way into the post for chippies because Shaq is down there. So Lebron would need to consistently rely on off the ball skill, quick strikes and jumpshots to have a great series here. Pounding the ball for 15 seconds waiting on a play to develop or bullying his way into the post wouldn't work well against this team. I really doubt LA would double him more than occasionally so his teammates would be held in check. And on the other end, he'd need to defend Kobe. Kobe would make Lebron work on both ends of the floor.

As a result, Cleveland would be taken out of their game and struggle. The reason I said LA in 5 is because I figure the Lakers would lose focus for a game and maybe Lebron and/or Kyrie would pick up the crumbs and eek out a win.
There's as much chance of TT/Love/Moz shutting down Shaq as there is of a Laker stopping LeBron.

[sportjames23]

Already has the GOAT Finals series against the best team of all-time.


When did Bron play against MJ and the Bulls?

[Dragonyeuw]

There's as much chance of TT/Love/Moz shutting down Shaq as there is of a Laker stopping LeBron.

2001 Kobe has a better chance of at least staying in front of Bron and making him work for points. Shaq is going to sleepwalk to 40 and 20.

[SilkkTheShocker]

When did Bron play against MJ and the Bulls?

When did the Bulls beat a team that was better than any team LeBron beat in the Finals?

[Dragonyeuw]

Already has the GOAT Finals series against the best team of all-time.

Shouldn't the best team of all time win the title at the end?

96 Bulls
86 Celtics
87 Lakers
72 Lakers
16 Warriors

One of these teams is not like the other(s)...

[Quickening]

Shouldn't the best team of all time win the title at the end?

96 Bulls
86 Celtics
87 Lakers
72 Lakers
16 Warriors

One of these teams is not like the other(s)...

Yes Lebron was playing against them. What a fcking beast :bowdown:
He achieved something MJ never could in the 80s and beat an all time great team :bowdown:

[aj1987]

2001 Kobe has a better chance of at least staying in front of Bron and making him work for points. Shaq is going to sleepwalk to 40 and 20.
The same LeBron we saw in the Finals is dropping 30+/10/8+ on 50%+ shooting against the Lakers. :confusedshrug:

Yeah, I do agree that Shaq is dropping 40/20, but it's something which he NEVER averaged in his career. I mean, the Nets in '02 "held" Shaq to 36 and 13 on 60%. They had a worse FC than the current Cavs.

[Mr Feeny]

Peak Shaq versus LeKing, clash of the titans.

The battle of the 3rmvps fam:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

Yes Lebron was playing against them. What a fcking beast :bowdown:
He achieved something MJ never could in the 80s and beat an all time great team :bowdown:

All-time great teams win the title, champ. Only Bron-tards will push the 73 wins when everyone else will remember that OKC exposed them the previous round, and Steph got his shit pushed in by someone barely recognized as a top 7 PG.

[Mr Feeny]

The only way you'd say Cavs is because you're trolling due to Kobe.


Beside the duo of a prime Shaq and Kobe you had a hell of a lot smarter role players on that team.

This question is ridiculous. Those saying Cavs are downright sad.

Kobe would shoot 35% and shoot the Lakers out of the series :lebronamazed:

[Dragonyeuw]

The same LeBron we saw in the Finals is dropping 30+/10/8+ on 50%+ shooting against the Lakers. :confusedshrug:

Yeah, I do agree that Shaq is dropping 40/20, but it's something which he NEVER averaged in his career. I mean, the Nets in '02 "held" Shaq to 36 and 13 on 60%. They had a worse FC than the current Cavs.

Shaq at the bare minimum is going to cancel out what Lebron does. And Kobe isn't going to get his shit pushed in defensively by Kyrie like Steph did. Probably comes down to the role players, but I'm betting on 2001 Shaq in the end.

[aj1987]

Shaq at the bare minimum is going to cancel out what Lebron does. And Kobe isn't going to get his shit pushed in defensively by Kyrie like Steph did. Probably comes down to the role players, but I'm betting on 2001 Shaq in the end.
I agree with you. I already said that Shaq would rape the Cavs and carry the Lakers to a win. One of the earlier posts ITT.

All I'm saying is that LeBron is going to get his, but the Cavs are not going to win. Doubt Kyrie would guard Kobe though. It'd probably be Iman/JR/LeBron.

[Dragonyeuw]

All I'm saying is that LeBron is going to get his, but the Cavs are not going to win. Doubt Kyrie would guard Kobe though. It'd probably be Iman/JR/LeBron.

Sure Bron will get his, the level he played the last 3 games he would 'get his' against pretty much anyone.

Sorry, didn't mean Kyrie is going to guard Kobe. I meant Kobe defending Kyrie would produce better results than Steph trying to. Kyrie probably gets like 23ppg on sub 45% with Kobe on him and as we saw, as great as Lebron closed the series Kyrie's 27ppg on 49% was absolutely crucial. Fisher was a tough defender back then as well.

[tpols]

Sure Bron will get his, the level he played the last 3 games he would 'get his' against pretty much anyone.

Bron only 'got his' to that extent in those games with some combo of dray and bogut out .. w/ Shaq not goin anywhere, the paint is still clogged.. the safety valve no longer exists. That hurts kyrie a bit too, but his in between game is much more reliable.

[Quickening]

Bron only 'got his' to that extent in those games with some combo of dray and bogut out .. w/ Shaq not goin anywhere, the paint is still clogged.. the safety valve no longer exists. That hurts kyrie a bit too, but his in between game is much more reliable.

If Shaq tries to stop Bron getting to the rim he fouls out game before half time.

[Dragonyeuw]

Bron only 'got his' to that extent in those games with some combo of dray and bogut out .. w/ Shaq not goin anywhere, the paint is still clogged.. the safety valve no longer exists. That hurts kyrie a bit too, but his in between game is much more reliable.

Yes but Bron discovering his jumpshot to close the series was a huge factor as well. As you said that's not the most reliable strategy, but the timing couldn't be better at that moment. If Kobe can force him to be a jumpshooter, with Shaq back there as a deterrent, than the Lakers have a clear edge.

[Mr Feeny]

Bron only 'got his' to that extent in those games with some combo of dray and bogut out .. w/ Shaq not goin anywhere, the paint is still clogged.. the safety valve no longer exists. That hurts kyrie a bit too, but his in between game is much more reliable.

Oh my goodness Kobe never once in 20 years scored 41 points in a Finals game. Lebron did it twice in THREE days!:eek: :roll: :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

If Shaq tries to stop Bron getting to the rim he fouls out game before half time.

If Kobrick even breaths in LeKing's face, Bron is going to go God mode with his 36,12,10 averages :lol

[tpols]

Yes but Bron discovering his jumpshot to close the series was a huge factor as well. As you said that's not the most reliable strategy, but the timing couldn't be better at that moment.

agreed.. but to me 'discovering the jump shot' is a by product of seeing the ***** and knowing there will be many opportunities in the paint.. It's a lot easier on the mind knowing the other teams two best rim protectors are out / no longer in sync when you're perhaps the greatest finisher of all time. It's like a weight off the shoulders. Look at how he played festus like a fool.. blowing by mo speights so easily for And -1's to point guy had to be benched.. that gets you in rythym everywhere else.. it's all interconnected.


If thats a bogut swat or dray deflection (like we saw a lot of in the first 4 games), and golden state makes something out of it on the other end like they did all season long, thats a huge momentum swing and pressure shifts back to the other team.. and they have to figure out a way to do what they want to do with that memory now stuck in the back of their mind.

[aj1987]

agreed.. but to me 'discovering the jump shot' is a by product of seeing the ***** and knowing there will be many opportunities in the paint.. It's a lot easier on the mind knowing the other teams two best rim protectors are out / no longer in sync when you're perhaps the greatest finisher of all time. It's like a weight off the shoulders. Look at how he played festus like a fool.. blowing by mo speights so easily for And -1's to point guy had to be benched.. that gets you in rythym everywhere else.. it's all interconnected.


If thats a bogut swat or dray deflection (like we saw a lot of in the first 4 games), and golden state makes something out of it on the other end like they did all season long, thats a huge momentum swing and pressure shifts back to the other team.. and they have to figure out a way to do what they want to do with that memory now stuck in the back of their mind.
Bruh, Bogut played like 10 minutes a game prior to his injury. Green was back for 6 & 7 and LeBron still destroyed them. G3, Bogut and Green were in, right? Iggy was also healthy. Care to post LeBron's stat line. I'll do it for you. 32/11/6/1/2 on 54%.


IMO, Shaq would averaged 38/18/4/3 on 60%, LeBron 32/10/8/2/1 on 52%, Kobe 26/5/5 on 41% and Kyrie 26/4/5 on 46%.

This outcome is also assuming that JR and the rest of the Cavs snipers are ice cold.

EDIT: Lets also not forget that LeBron scored 41/16/7/3/3 on 53% with Bogut playing pretty much his standard number of minutes.

[tpols]

Bruh, Bogut played like 10 minutes a game prior to his injury.


and those 10 minutes per game were huge because the replacements were awful defensively. It's about setting a physical tone .. Andrew Bogut is one of the best rim protectors in the game aj.



Green was back for 6 & 7 and LeBron still destroyed them. G3, Bogut and Green were in, right? Iggy was also healthy. Care to post LeBron's stat line. I'll do it for you. 32/11/6/1/2 on 54%.


Why would you pick out the best game from the four and then act like I wasnt going to show the rest.. ? lol.. this is why discussions with you never go far, or end up a shit slinging fest of each side calling each other some variation of idiot.


Game One- 23 points on 42% shooting
Game Two- 19 points on 41% shooting
Game Four- 19 points on 44% shooting (before the three statpadded layups at the end when his team desperately needed 3's)


Then with Bogut out.. Bron absolutely takes a steaming dump on mo/ezeli/varejo to the point Steve Kerr had to put that dude in, forget his name, but he barely ever played in the Finals before. Mcadoo? Replacement value. It was a huge deal and made an enormous impact to their paint defense.


and it's also the defensive tandem aj.. Bogut and dray were the best defensive frontcourt in the league , and had chemistry defensively like no other.. Bogut clogging the middle and hands at the rim, and dray running around like a maniac poking at everything.. Having BOTH of them was huge to holding Lebron to the numbers I just showed you.


in this matchup, Shaq is at the rim.. 7'2 300+, unreal coordination.. The paint is on lockdown for bron, safety valve is shut off.

[Dragonyeuw]

IMO, Shaq would averaged 38/18/4/3 on 60%, LeBron 32/10/8/2/1 on 52%, Kobe 26/5/5 on 41% and Kyrie 26/4/5 on 46%.



I don't think Kyrie does quite that well, at least from a percentage perspective, nor do I think Kobe shoots that poorly. 2001 Kobe is at least the defender Klay is, and Klay did fairly well keeping up with Kyrie, it was Curry that Kyrie shat on, with the added caveat that Shaq is back there. Fisher is going to see some minutes and probably defend Kyrie better than Curry did as well. Who defends Kobe in this matchup? Lebron was matched up against Iggy and Barnes mainly, yeah? Nowhere near the offensive threat Kobe is, and to save Bron's energy its mainly Iman and Smith defending Kobe, who I see doing very well against( in 2001 playoffs, he was being defended by the likes of Bonzi Wells, Derek Anderson, Eric Snow, Raja Bell, Jumaine Jones and I wouldn't put JR/Iman collectively above most of those guys).

[tpols]

I don't think Kyrie does quite that well, at least from a percentage perspective, nor do I think Kobe shoots that poorly. 2001 Kobe is at least the defender Klay is, and Klay did fairly well keeping up with Kyrie, it was Curry that Kyrie shat on, with the added caveat that Shaq is back there. Fisher is going to see some minutes and probably defend Kyrie better than Curry did as well. Who defends Kobe in this matchup? Lebron was matched up against Iggy and Barnes mainly, yeah? Nowhere near the offensive threat Kobe is, and to save Bron's energy its mainly Iman and Smith defending Kobe, who I see doing very well against( in 2001 playoffs, he was being defended by the likes of Bonzi Wells, Bruce Bowen, Ruben Patterson, Eric Snos, Raja Bell, Jumaine Jones).

he's trolling .. is a lebron stan/kobe hater .. we all saw what shaun livingston was capable of from midrange against this cavs defense with Love in, and he is a super poor mans version of young Kobe.. add ancedotal evidence of 01 Kobe dunking all over the Twin Tower spurs frontcourt and compare that to Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson duo.. it's a joke.


then the bron kiddies want to use numbers kobe got during series with a handful of defensive genius larry brown led teams .. goat level defenses in detroit, and boston handful of times and say "Look! this is all kobe got in the Finals" ignoring that the Cavs are a cupcake defense compared to those teams.. they try to troll, but are easily figured out.

[Dragonyeuw]

add ancedotal evidence of 01 Kobe dunking all over the Twin Tower spurs frontcourt and compare that to Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson duo.. it's a joke.




That's what I'm thinking of in this situation. To play like Kobe did in the paint that particular series with prime Duncan and a still defensively potent Robinson defending the paint...then looking at who the Cavs got back there in this matchup. Wouldn't be pretty...then it's the whole 'what rules are we playing under' argument and if its today's rules Kobe's getting to the rim easier than 15 years ago, with considerably inferior paint protection when he gets there. Kobe may actually be the most important player in terms of which way the series goes, because the 'today's' rules argument may also work against Shaq to a degree. He's not going to be able to get away with the physical play like back then, though I think he'd adapt enough to put up 30 and 15 at least.

[aj1987]

and those 10 minutes per game were huge because the replacements were awful defensively. It's about setting a physical tone .. Andrew Bogut is one of the best rim protectors in the game aj.
No he's not, when he's playing like 10 minutes a game. Again, as I said, tpols, Bogut played near the same number of minutes with pretty much a healthy Iggy in G5 and LeBron murdered them.


Why would you pick out the best game from the four and then act like I wasnt going to show the rest.. ? lol.. this is why discussions with you never go far, or end up a shit slinging fest of each side calling each other some variation of idiot.
To show that LeBron still killed them when they were all in the game?


Game One- 23 points on 42% shooting
Game Two- 19 points on 41% shooting
Game Four- 19 points on 44% shooting (before the three statpadded layups at the end when his team desperately needed 3's)
Sure, he had bad games. What did he score in G7 with Green and an "injured" Iggy and with Bogut OUT. Must've dropped something like 40 on over 50%, right? He probably took like 20 shots at the rim and made 15 of them with Bogut on the bench and Iggy injured. That's what happened in G7, right?

[QUOTE=tpols]Then with Bogut out.. Bron absolutely takes a steaming dump on mo/ezeli/varejo to the point Steve Kerr had to put that dude in, forget his name, but he barely ever played in the Finals before. Mcadoo? Replacement value. It was a huge deal and made an enormous impact to their paint defense.
Sure, lets ignore the FACT that 9 of 13 3's that LeBron made in the ENTIRE series came in games 5 & 6. I'm sure that the Warriors missed Bogut's legendary 3pt defense.

Once again, going back to G5, LeBron still scored 41 points on 53% shooting WITH Bogut playing nearly the same number of minutes.

In the 3 loses, LeBron shot 62% at the rim, compared to 69% in the final 3 games. Sure that's a nice bump, but that's basically LeBron making 1 more shot at the rim on 5 more attempts. Total. LeBron took 6 shots from mid-range and 20 FGA's over the 3 losses. That increased to 27 a game in the final 3 games. Bogut or not, LeBron was being aggressive and he got his.


and it's also the defensive tandem aj.. Bogut and dray were the best defensive frontcourt in the league , and had chemistry defensively like no other.. Bogut clogging the middle and hands at the rim, and dray running around like a maniac poking at everything.. Having BOTH of them was huge to holding Lebron to the numbers I just showed you.
In the RS? Sure they were. Bogut's minutes basically dropped in half in the Finals though. Still, I've just FACTUALLY with STATS showed you how little it really effected LeBron. Dude being able to shoot jumpers is what got him going.


in this matchup, Shaq is at the rim.. 7'2 300+, unreal coordination.. The paint is on lockdown for bron, safety valve is shut off.
Cool. So you're saying that with Irving and LeBron driving constantly that Shaq would be in foul trouble by half time? Agreed.:cheers:


I don't think Kyrie does quite that well, at least from a percentage perspective
Not really too many defenders that could actually guard Kyrie on the Lakers. That Laker team wasn't really know for it's defense either.


nor do I think Kobe shoots that poorly.
LeBron was an absolute beast on the defensive end and outside Mutombo, no one on that Sixers squad even came close to having the defensive impact that LeBron did. Add in Shump, who's also an elite defender to guard Kobe. Yeah, Kobe's not shooting more than that.


2001 Kobe is at least the defender Klay is, and Klay did fairly well keeping up with Kyrie, it was Curry that Kyrie shat on
If Kobe is on Irving, LeBron is being guarded by? What about JR and Shump? Those 3's are gonna drop and it wouldn't be pretty. Fisher can't keep up with Kyrie either. Not quick enough.


Who defends Kobe in this matchup? Lebron was matched up against Iggy and Barnes mainly, yeah? Nowhere near the offensive threat Kobe is, and to save Bron's energy its mainly Iman and Smith defending Kobe, who I see doing very well against( in 2001 playoffs, he was being defended by the likes of Bonzi Wells, Derek Anderson, Eric Snow, Raja Bell, Jumaine Jones and I wouldn't put JR/Iman collectively above most of those guys).
Bell was a rookie and Snow wasn't really an elite defender by them (IIRC, he made the All-Def team in '04). LeBron/JR/Shump would hold Kobe to worse numbers than the Sixers defenders. Heck, JR/Shump alone are better defenders than '01 Snow/Bell/Jones.

[Dragonyeuw]

Not really too many defenders that could actually guard Kyrie on the Lakers. That Laker team wasn't really know for it's defense either.


LeBron was an absolute beast on the defensive end and outside Mutombo, no one on that Sixers squad even came close to having the defensive impact that LeBron did. Add in Shump, who's also an elite defender to guard Kobe. Yeah, Kobe's not shooting more than that.


If Kobe is on Irving, LeBron is being guarded by? What about JR and Shump? Those 3's are gonna drop and it wouldn't be pretty. Fisher can't keep up with Kyrie either. Not quick enough.


Bell was a rookie and Snow wasn't really an elite defender by them (IIRC, he made the All-Def team in '04). LeBron/JR/Shump would hold Kobe to worse numbers than the Sixers defenders. Heck, JR/Shump alone are better defenders than '01 Snow/Bell/Jones.



- Lebron's not going to spend a great deal of time defending Kobe, maybe in certain situations. Kobe shot 51% and put up 33 against a better defensive Spurs team than this Cavs team. Kobe was too great a slasher to consistently keep him out of the paint, coupled wit the lack of real interior presence. All the teams that Kobe shot poorly against in the finals are all-time great defensive teams( admittedly his play in 2004 was as much a product of ego as it was defense), of which I wouldn't put the 2016 Cavs.

-Kobe will see time on Irving, as will Fisher. You're underestimating Fisher on the premise of speed. Some of the better defenders, Bowen, Battier, Artest, weren't among the quickest or shiftiest players. Klay managed to keep Kyrie in front of him alot and he's not as quick either. 3point shooting-wise, Fisher, Fox, Horry, and Kobe provide enough to counter what the Cavs throw at them. In fact , the Lakers role players were more dependable in general. JR Smith alone could win you a game and lose you three with how hot/cold he runs. The Lakers were top heavy with Shaq and Kobe, and throughout that playoff run everyone had a defined role and played that role perfectly.

[tpols]

That's what I'm thinking of in this situation. To play like Kobe did in the paint that particular series with prime Duncan and a still defensively potent Robinson defending the paint...then looking at who the Cavs got back there in this matchup. Wouldn't be pretty...then it's the whole 'what rules are we playing under' argument and if its today's rules Kobe's getting to the rim easier than 15 years ago, with considerably inferior paint protection when he gets there. Kobe may actually be the most important player in terms of which way the series goes, because the 'today's' rules argument may also work against Shaq to a degree. He's not going to be able to get away with the physical play like back then, though I think he'd adapt enough to put up 30 and 15 at least.


yup.. totally agree on all fronts.

Today's game is easier on perimeter players than it is on big men.. the spacing argument is a big reason for that being able to drag the really big guys out.. while simultaneously giving perimeter players wider avenues towards the basket. Kobe dropped 33/7/7, 51 FG on a Spurs defense with a 98 Drtg and #1 ranked overall defense in the league. There is a very serious chance he ****s around and gets a FMVP against Cleveland's 105 Drtg, 10th ranked defense, and relative cupcake soft paint.

[aj1987]

- Lebron's not going to spend a great deal of time defending Kobe, maybe in certain situations. Kobe shot 51% and put up 33 against a better defensive Spurs team than this Cavs team. Kobe was too great a slasher to consistently keep him out of the paint, coupled wit the lack of real interior presence. All the teams that Kobe shot poorly against in the finals are all-time great defensive teams( admittedly his play in 2004 was as much a product of ego as it was defense), of which I wouldn't put the 2016 Cavs.
He shot ~41% against worse defenders than JR/Shump/LeBron.

True, that LeBron won't be guarding Kobe 45 minutes a game, but he'll be on him in the 4th Q's.


-Kobe will see time on Irving, as will Fisher. You're underestimating Fisher on the premise of speed. Some of the better defenders, Bowen, Battier, Artest, weren't among the quickest or shiftiest players. Klay managed to keep Kyrie in front of him alot and he's not as quick either.
You're really saying that Fisher can keep up with Irving?



3point shooting-wise, Fisher, Fox, Horry, and Kobe provide enough to counter what the Cavs throw at them. In fact , the Lakers role players were more dependable in general. JR Smith alone could win you a game and lose you three with how hot/cold he runs. The Lakers were top heavy with Shaq and Kobe, and throughout that playoff run everyone had a defined role and played that role perfectly.
None of them are known to be elite 3pt shooters. The Cav's have about half a dozen elite 3pt shooters.

[tpols]

aj with the dumbing down of the discussion .. now saying the Cavs defense was better than a Larry brown orchestrated, Dikembe Mutumbo anchored paint ..? loaded with guys that were only in the league for their defense outside of Allen Iverson... next level ignorance. That philly team was better defensively by every single metric and by a wiiide amount.


The Cavs are nowhere near that squad defensively.. I dont know what you were watchin back then aj.. must've been cricket or some shit, because you definitely dont have even the slightest clue what you're talking about..

[Nike D'Antoni]

I lean to the Cavs. This era is different.


The Lakers in 01, did not face similar competition like Cavs faced in the Warriors. Back then KG, Duncan, Iverson, Carter,Mcgrady etc were all on different teams. The Lakers would usually face a team with maximum one franchise player in them. While they had 2 with Kobe/Shaq.


Lebron/Irving/Love is like Mcgrady/Jason Kidd/Garnett on same team to some extent. And I think a team like that could have had the Lakers Number.

This era is different. The Warriors have multiple players who are franchise players, Curry/Klay/Green vs one Sixers had in Iverson.

[Dragonyeuw]

-He shot ~41% against worse defenders than JR/Shump/LeBron.


-You're really saying that Fisher can keep up with Irving?


None of them are known to be elite 3pt shooters. The Cav's have about half a dozen elite 3pt shooters.

Those teams had much better team defense. The sixers had guys like George Lynch, Snow, Jumaine Jones, Bell funneling defenders towards Mutumbo in the paint. The Pistons had Prince on the perimeter with the Wallace Bros. defending the rim. The defensive scenarios aren't the same. Lebron isn't going to defend Kobe but in key moments, and Shumpert/Smith aren't going to consistently keep him from the rim, where there's no paint presence to speak of.

I believe I said he'd do a better job of defending him that Curry would.

The Cavs shot 30% from 3 in the finals. It wasn't a major weapon for them in beating Golden State, and I don't expect it to be a difference maker in this situation. Fisher, Fox and Horry were 25 of 47 in the finals, if they're anywhere near that efficient against Cleveland that's more than good enough to complement Shaq and Kobe's offense.

[aj1987]

aj with the dumbing down of the discussion .. now saying the Cavs defense was better than a Larry brown orchestrated, Dikembe Mutumbo anchored paint ..? loaded with guys that were only in the league for their defense outside of Allen Iverson... next level ignorance. That philly team was better defensively by every single metric and by a wiiide amount.

The Cavs are nowhere near that squad defensively.. I dont know what you were watchin back then aj.. must've been cricket or some shit, because you definitely dont have even the slightest clue what you're talking about..
Mutombo and who else? There really weren't too many elite defenders on that team. Besides, I was talking about defensive matchups. I see that you still can't read properly. I'll try again. JR/Shump/LeBron shit on anything the Sixers had to guard Kobe. I was actually being generous with the 41%.

There's a reason why I said Kobe would be Kobe and shoot horrendous percentages (like he usually does in the Finals), but Shaq would abuse the lack to defenders in the paint and would carry Kobe (like he usually does in the Finals) to a chip.

As I said, I wouldn't expect someone with your level of knowledge (the lack to it to be specific) to understand how basketball works though. :cheers:

But but the Thunder would win because they're lengthy. :roll:


Those teams had much better team defense. The sixers had guys like George Lynch, Snow, Jumaine Jones, Bell funneling defenders towards Mutumbo in the paint.
Again, Bell was a rookie. Bell and Jones were basically bench scrubs and Snow really wasn't an elite defender. I would take JR/Shump/LeBron over whoever the Sixers had to guard Kobe in a heartbeat.

Lynch played a total of 14 minutes in the Finals, BTW. Wasn't an elite defender either.


Lebron isn't going to defend Kobe but in key moments, and Shumpert/Smith aren't going to consistently keep him from the rim, where there's no paint presence to speak of.
Again, LeBron is going to be on Kobe in the 4th Q's and JR/Shump are going to do a better job on Kobe than Snow and rookie Bell.


The Cavs shot 30% from 3 in the finals. It wasn't a major weapon for them in beating Golden State, and I don't expect it to be a difference maker in this situation.
The Warriors made a conscious effort to take away the 3. There's a reason as to why LeBron and Kyrie had open lanes.

The Cavs shot 33%. Not 30%.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I can't even remember the last time a Kobe team beat a LeBron led team. Kobe is in the same class as Rose, George, Durant, Westbrook, etc of losing to LeBron teams.

[Dragonyeuw]

Again, LeBron is going to be on Kobe in the 4th Q's and JR/Shump are going to do a better job on Kobe than Snow and rookie Bell.


The Warriors made a conscious effort to take away the 3. There's a reason as to why LeBron and Kyrie had open lanes.

The Cavs shot 33%. Not 30%.

- And again, if we're playing today's rules Kobe is going to get to the rim. You keep throwing this out as if Kobe has never played against the caliber of defender like Smith and Shumpert. They don't present anything insurmountable. Lebron on Kobe is interesting but again, only in limited situations. Lebron can roam and be a terror defensively when his opposing number doesn't provide the offensive challenge that Kobe would

33% from 30% isn't an earth-shattering difference, but if you feel the need to point that out....

[Mr Feeny]

I can't even remember the last time a Kobe team beat a LeBron led team. Kobe is in the same class as Rose, George, Durant, Westbrook, etc of losing to LeBron teams.
Lebron owns him h2h. Kobe has always played poorly whenever he saw lebron opposite him on the same court.
Their career h2h numbers and win records are embarassing:roll:

[aj1987]

- And again, if we're playing today's rules Kobe is going to get to the rim. You keep throwing this out as if Kobe has never played against the caliber of defender like Smith and Shumpert. They don't present anything insurmountable. Lebron on Kobe is interesting but again, only in limited situations. Lebron can roam and be a terror defensively when his opposing number doesn't provide the offensive challenge that Kobe would
By todays rules, it'd basically be Kobe vs the Cavs. Shaq would foul out by halftime.


33% from 30% isn't an earth-shattering difference, but if you feel the need to point that out....
To put that in perspective, Kobe's a career 33% 3pt shooter and Wade's at 30%.

[Dragonyeuw]

By todays rules, it'd basically be Kobe vs the Cavs. Shaq would foul out by halftime.


To put that in perspective, Kobe's a career 33% 3pt shooter and Wade's at 30%.

That doesn't equate with your earlier sentiments. If you agree that the Lakers would beat Cleveland, how would they do this if Shaq fouls out at halftime and Kobe is stifled by Lebron/JR/Iman?

Kobe's made more 3's than Wade taken for his career. What are we debating here, again?

[tpols]

That doesn't equate with your earlier sentiments. If you agree that the Lakers would beat Cleveland, how would they do this if Shaq fouls out at halftime and Kobe is stifled by Lebron/JR/Iman?

Kobe's made more 3's than Wade taken for his career. What are we debating here, again?

nice catch in the slip of logic.

aj says shaq will foul out by halftime.
aj says kobe will get locked down by a statistically inferior defense
aj says Lakers should win

so.. i guess aj thinks Derek fisher is goin for 30 ppg? :lol ..


there's no debating with him.. you can hash out perfectly logical arguments that he will just shitpost all over, claiming the opposite of whatever you said in a child like defiant manner.. but w/o any backing to it.. hence shitposts. And when you put them all together you just get a giant mound of turds haha.

[BoNafidde]

Cavs win maybe 1 game.

Shaq would average 40/18 vs tristan thompson :lol

[Showtime2001]

nice catch in the slip of logic.

aj says shaq will foul out by halftime.
aj says kobe will get locked down by a statistically inferior defense
aj says Lakers should win

so.. i guess aj thinks Derek fisher is goin for 30 ppg? :lol ..


there's no debating with him.. you can hash out perfectly logical arguments that he will just shitpost all over, claiming the opposite of whatever you said in a child like defiant manner.. but w/o any backing to it.. hence shitposts. And when you put them all together you just get a giant mound of turds haha.
Thats why you dont argue with retards.

[aj1987]

That doesn't equate with your earlier sentiments. If you agree that the Lakers would beat Cleveland, how would they do this if Shaq fouls out at halftime and Kobe is stifled by Lebron/JR/Iman?
Because before you brought up TODAY'S rules:


Depends on the rules. Is it today or is Shaq allowed elbow everyone.

If the refs let things go, Shaq drops 35/10 easily. TT is just too small and post injury Mozgov isn't a great rim protector anymore.

Nobody on the Lakers can shut down Bron/Kyrie but love would be useless.
Kobe would be horrible as per usual in the Finals.

Despite LeBeast Lakers in 7, Shaq is the MDE for a reason.


I saw that.

Let's say it's today's rules.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12528957&postcount=4

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12528961&postcount=5

I was basing my posts off of what sportsjames23 said. '01 rules. You were the one who brought up todays rules. Right here, in this post:


- And again, if we're playing today's rules Kobe is going to get to the rim. You keep throwing this out as if Kobe has never played against the caliber of defender like Smith and Shumpert. They don't present anything insurmountable. Lebron on Kobe is interesting but again, only in limited situations. Lebron can roam and be a terror defensively when his opposing number doesn't provide the offensive challenge that Kobe would

One of the reasons why I specified today's rules in my post when I replied:


By todays rules, it'd basically be Kobe vs the Cavs. Shaq would foul out by halftime.

I mentioned the rules specifically because you changed the criteria from the OP.

Here's my ORIGINAL post from the beginning of this thread:


Shaq would murder the Cavs. 40/20 and the series would be over in 5, unless LeBron/Kyrie go absolutely bonkers.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12529047&postcount=12


Kobe's made more 3's than Wade taken for his career. What are we debating here, again?
That 33% does not equate to 30%. 33% is a decent point shooter. You wouldn't call a 30% 3pt shooter that.


nice catch in the slip of logic.

aj says shaq will foul out by halftime.
aj says kobe will get locked down by a statistically inferior defense
aj says Lakers should win
Kid, you might want to actually read the entire thread, if you want to butt into a conversation I'm having with another poster.


so.. i guess aj thinks Derek fisher is goin for 30 ppg? ..
:facepalm :facepalm


there's no debating with him.. you can hash out perfectly logical arguments that he will just shitpost all over, claiming the opposite of whatever you said in a child like defiant manner.. but w/o any backing to it.. hence shitposts. And when you put them all together you just get a giant mound of turds haha.
The **** are you talking about? I literally backup each and everyone of my claims with FACTS and STATS. You're the dude who uses hyperbole and your hatred for LeBron to cloud your judgment and make retarded posts.

You guy absolutely wrecked and you're in denial. Come back when you can actually refute any of the STATS and FACTS I posted. Until then, stick with your "but but but OKC's length will beat the Cavs" posts. :oldlol:


A wild lapbitch shows up. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[inclinerator]

shaq would be less effective cuz of the rule change still good enough for a lakers win probably unless every cavs player goes off which could happen

kevin love would go off for sure

[Dragonyeuw]

Because before you brought up TODAY'S rules:





http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12528957&postcount=4

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12528961&postcount=5

I was basing my posts off of what sportsjames23 said. '01 rules. You were the one who brought up todays rules. Right here, in this post:



One of the reasons why I specified today's rules in my post when I replied:



I mentioned the rules specifically because you changed the criteria from the OP.

Here's my ORIGINAL post from the beginning of this thread:



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12529047&postcount=12




When you initially agreed with me about the Lakers winning, I don't recall you specifying which rules you were basing that on, at least during our line of discussion, but no matter. Things sometimes get lost in translation. So let's put this in context, for clarity:

Today's rules: Shaq fouls out, Kobe is smothered by Bron/Iman/Smith, Cavs win

2001 rules: Shaq goes HAM, Kobe goes (less?) HAM but fares better than he would in 2016, Lakers win

Is that an accurate summary of your argument?

[aj1987]

Today's rules: Shaq fouls out, Kobe is smothered by Bron/Iman/Smith, Cavs win
Let me be extra clear. IF the refs call all his elbows and other stuff they let him get away with in '01, he certainly will be in foul trouble the entire series, diminishing his effect.

Kobe is historically not a great Finals performer. LeBron's defense was brilliant this postseason. The trio of LeBron/Shump/JR are better than the wing defenders that the Sixers had to neutralize Kobe.

I know that I said the Cavs would win (well, I implied it), but Shaq is my favorite player and I wouldn't bet against him. Still, I'll stick with what I said. Cavs in 6/7.


2001 rules: Shaq goes HAM, Kobe goes (less?) HAM but fares better than he would in 2016, Lakers win
Even with the '01 rules, I think Kobe would struggle against the Cavs. Just imagine LeBron being extra physical with the '01 rules on the defensive end. Still, Lakers in 5. Shaq would steamroll them.


Is that an accurate summary of your argument?
Pretty much. All these are hypotheticals. I wouldn't necessarily say that you're wrong, because that's your opinion and this is mine. :cheers:

[Dragonyeuw]

Pretty much. All these are hypotheticals. I wouldn't necessarily say that you're wrong, because that's your opinion and this is mine. :cheers:

Fair enough for me :cheers: