Scoring is #1 category since teams win w/ less rebs or ast, but never w/ less pts

[3ball]

.
And since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ"s scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.




..............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2016... 31.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 47.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Jordan also faced greater defensive attention, since he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 1 ppg for Lebron - but despite the greater defensive attention, MJ made all the game winning plays for Pippen, whereas Kyrie made several for Lebron.

Overall, Jordan scored 20-30% more with better efficiency, and only 1 less assist with less turnovers.. And Jordan got more offensive rebounds, which means that Lebron's only area of advantage is defensive rebounds.
.

[Sarcastic]

Everyone already knows Jordan is GOAT.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Assists lead to scoring and rebounding gives you more possessions to have the chance to score. You do realize this, right?

You can actually be a less efficient scoring team and win if you out-rebound the other team.

[3ball]

You can actually be a less efficient scoring team and win if you out-rebound the other team.



It's statistical fact that the offensive rebounding rates used in the 80's would increase today's ORtg by 4 points




From Nylon Calculus:



"Looking at the league-average level, the takeaway is this: an NBA team generally improves on offense by about 0.62 points per 100 possessions for each percentage point increase in its offensive rebound rate. This means that if NBA teams were to improve their offensive rebounding from 23% (where it is now) to 30% (where it was a few years ago), they would generally score about 4.3 points more per 100 possessions."

http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/01/06/offensive-rebounds-and-three-pointers/
https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/the-value-of-improved-offensive-rebounding/




From Grantland:



"The general conclusion the authors presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in March, based on data from the 2011-12 season, was that teams could net about 4 points extra per game by recalibrating their philosophy toward offensive rebounding — that teams were being too cautious."

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/party-crashers-debunking-the-myths-of-offensive-rebounding-and-transition-defense/




However, ORtg was only 1-2 points higher in the 80's, which means that superior halfcourt defense (paint-camping, hand-checking, and no spacing) mostly offset the ORtg increase created by 2nd chance points (and many more points from greater transition opportunities).
.

[ShawkFactory]

You're like a jack-in-the-box.

Wind you up a little bit and one of three sayings will come out you.

[BlakFrankWhite]

you're like Will Smith in I Am Legend, screaming that you can fix this whilst chatting to mannequins in a video shop.

[3ball]

.
MJ vs. Lebron




Playoffs (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 27.9 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Playoffs (Per 100 Possessions):

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 36.4 pts.. 2.1 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Finals (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 48.1 fg
LEBRON:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 reb.. 7.2 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.1 fg



Teams win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but never with less scoring.

So scoring is the most important category, and since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ's scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession
.

[ShawkFactory]

Playoffs (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 27.9 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Playoffs (Per 100 Possessions):

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 36.4 pts.. 2.1 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Finals (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 48.1 fg
LEBRON:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 reb.. 7.2 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.1 fg



Teams win with less rebounds or assists than the opponent, but never with less scoring.

So scoring is the most important category, and since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ's scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.

Overall, Jordan scored 20-30% more with better efficiency, and only 1 less assist with less turnovers.. And Jordan got more offensive rebounds, which means that Lebron's only area of advantage is defensive rebounds.
POP goes the weasel

[Smoke117]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[atljonesbro]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[warriorfan]

Good read :applause:

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan is the #1 usage all time player.

[AintNoSunshine]

So defense doesn't matter either, as it does not directly add points.

[stalkerforlife]

Jordan is better than Kobe, but not by much.

Not much at all.

Kobe is the 2nd GOAT.

[K.dot ShowTime]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
.....
.....
13. LeCollude

[NZStreetBaller]

Still amazes me jordans ppg increase in the playoffs.

Fun fact: jordan is the darkest skinned person on the top 10 list. Coincidence?? I think not!!

[pauk]

True, scoring is #1 category... but you are thinking only of INDIVIDUAL SCORING.... you are not talking about scoring with all ways of point accountability on your teams boxscore... which means points that you can account for by more than just individual scoring.... team score > individual score...

1 defensive rebound saves your team from potential 2-3 points from opponents (2nd chance points), thats being accountable for denying 2-3 points for the opponents... steals & blocks work the same way...

1 offensive rebound gives your team potential 2-3 points (2nd chance points), 1 offensive rebound can account for 2-3 more points for your team, even if YOU didnt score it you gave the opportunity hence you were also accountable for those points on your teams boxscore...

1 assist means being directly accountable for 2-3 points on your teams boxscore... there are players who could create easiest shots for teammates out of nothing, if he didnt do that they wouldnt be getting those easy shots... sometimes a pass doesnt count as an assist even tho it should, like when you pass to a wideopen teammate under the basket who gets fouled (who would have scored 2 points & given you the assist anyways) and hits all his shots at the FT line anyways, 1-3 points....

[MintBerryCrunch]

Ok, settle down spaz.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

OP is the type of retard who'd take prime Brandon Jennings over prime Tyson Chandler.

[AirBonner]

Ordan never beat a 73 win team tho

[3ball]

Still amazes me jordans ppg increase in the playoffs.

Fun fact: jordan is the darkest skinned person on the top 10 list. Coincidence?? I think not!!



Playoffs (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 27.9 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Playoffs (Per 100 Possessions):

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 36.4 pts.. 2.1 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Finals (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 48.1 fg
LEBRON:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 reb.. 7.2 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.1 fg



Jordan scored 20-30% more with better efficiency, and only 1 less assist with less turnovers.. And Jordan got more offensive rebounds, which means that Lebron's only area of advantage is defensive rebounds.






OP is the type of retard who'd take prime Brandon Jennings over prime Tyson Chandler.


Jennings and Chandler have different roles, whereas this thread is comparing #1 option wings (MJ, Lebron).. For #1 options, scoring is the most important category.

Similarly, scoring is the most important category for TEAMS, since they can win with less rebounds or assists, but never with less scoring.. And since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ's scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.
.

[AirBonner]

Jennings and Chandler have different roles, whereas this thread is comparing #1 options (MJ, Lebron).. For #1 options, scoring is the most important category.

Similarly, scoring is the most important category for TEAMS, since they can win with less rebounds or assists, but never with less scoring.. And since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ's scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.
Ordan would be a slightly more efficient derozan in today's game.

[3ball]

Ordan would be a slightly more efficient derozan in today's game.



Derozan can't jump off 2 feet like Jordan:


https://media.giphy.com/media/l0MYzvqeM15rTVEm4/giphy.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/8H1tQ1.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jKb0_s.gif



Derozan can't jump off 1 foot like Jordan:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/mVv0nJ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/YozdEc.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/E3p4Db.gif




Derozan isn't nearly as quick laterally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QJwQZHNc4&t=5m25s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ7iGPAW4pM&t=2m48s




And Derozan can't shoot like Jordan:


..NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)


.......................Midrange Efficiency .



Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 37.5%.. 183/488


M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101



Jordan is the only superathlete EVER to be a goat shooter as well (from either midrange or 3-point range)

Otoh, Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have sub-par 3-point and midrange efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had goat midrange efficiency, even better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

[sdot_thadon]

That idiotic moment where you fail to realize assists = points. :biggums:

[CavsLebronMo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck-E7Y2WkAEurQm.jpg

[jlip]

Individual scoring is not the same thing as team scoring. There are several accounts of players leading the league in scoring on losing teams including MJ.

[CavsLebronMo]

https://s32.postimg.org/dsxxxsy1h/lebron.jpg

[jlip]

From another thread:

[QUOTE=jlip]I did a spreadsheet showing the statistical loads (pts, rbs, & asts) for MJ and Lebron in the Finals. The numbers are the percentages of their entire teams

[3ball]

From another thread:



MJ scored 20-30% more, with only 1 less assist and less turnovers.. He also got more offensive rebounds, so Lebron's only area of advantage is defensive rebounds:




Playoffs (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 27.9 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 7.2 dreb.. 6.8 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Playoffs (Per 100 Possessions):

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 PER
LEBRON:. 36.4 pts.. 2.1 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 27.7 PER


Finals (Per Game):

JORDAN:. 33.6 ppg.. 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 48.1 fg
LEBRON:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 reb.. 7.2 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.1 fg

[3ball]

From another thread:


Your stats don't include turnovers, which negate Lebron's tiny assist edge.. Meanwhile, Jordan scored more with better efficiency and got more offensive rebounds, so the only area where Lebron leads is defensive rebounds - that's it.

But most importantly, SCORING is the most critical category for #1 options like MJ and Lebron, and also for TEAMS, since they can win with less rebounds or assists, but never with less scoring.

And since #1 options control the scoring and flow more than anyone else, MJ's scoring and efficiency advantage is more important than Lebron's replaceable defensive rebounds against small ball lineups, or 1 assist edge achieved via Westbrook-like time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4) of possession.

[guy]

True, scoring is #1 category... but you are thinking only of INDIVIDUAL SCORING.... you are not talking about scoring with all ways of point accountability on your teams boxscore... which means points that you can account for by more than just individual scoring.... team score > individual score...

1 defensive rebound saves your team from potential 2-3 points from opponents (2nd chance points), thats being accountable for denying 2-3 points for the opponents... steals & blocks work the same way...

1 offensive rebound gives your team potential 2-3 points (2nd chance points), 1 offensive rebound can account for 2-3 more points for your team, even if YOU didnt score it you gave the opportunity hence you were also accountable for those points on your teams boxscore...

1 assist means being directly accountable for 2-3 points on your teams boxscore... there are players who could create easiest shots for teammates out of nothing, if he didnt do that they wouldnt be getting those easy shots... sometimes a pass doesnt count as an assist even tho it should, like when you pass to a wideopen teammate under the basket who gets fouled (who would have scored 2 points & given you the assist anyways) and hits all his shots at the FT line anyways, 1-3 points....

Individual scoring, rebounding, and assist statistics are all overrated, but the rebounding and assist stats are clearly more overrated then scoring.

Defensive rebounds don't necessarily mean anything since its not the only way a team can get the ball back i.e turnover, and because if that team doesn't score on the other end, it doesn't really make a difference since it nets to 0. Offensive rebounds don't mean much if it doesn't convert into points. Furthermore, there are so many time where rebounds just come from the luck of being at the right place at the right time. So while rebounding is supposed to indicate hustle and energy, rebounding averages are more significant the larger the sample size, but just looking at rebounding numbers in a single game or small stretch of games could mean very little. That's why with rebounding vs other stats, we more often see games where someone looks like he played like shit but somehow has high rebounding numbers.

High individual assists are more often then not the function of ball dominance. That's why you rarely see championship teams win with someone averaging 9+ apg, and that's why the teams that are more often considered the elite passing teams in the league rarely ever have any one player averaging more then 6-7 apg. And sure you can argue the same thing about high scorers, but not really because a lot more great scorers have been able to get high scoring numbers without dominating the ball then great passers/high assist players have.

Assessing individual scoring requires more context IMO. Generally, points and efficiency should be the key measures but depending on the offensive ability of his teammates, volume scoring and efficiency should be judged differently i.e. high volume shooting and low efficiency should be less criticized and sometimes high volume shooting should be even encouraged if a superstar doesn't really have much help around him or his teammates just aren't playing well.

[riseagainst]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif