All 12be jokes aside, the lowest Kobe should really be ranked is 11th [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Akrazotile

07-22-2016, 09:47 PM

I get that ESPN/SI both ranked him 12th (SI had Shaq 15th all time, Hakeem 16th fwiw), but based on his career accolades/stats/resume, the only players who should truly be ranked over Kobe are

Accolades = Media popularity contests

Stats = Kevin Love can put up record stats in the right circumstance

Resume = Being lucky to play for the sport's greatest franchise

If you're actually drafting for players to have on your franchise for the next 15 years with no other consideration except winning... Realistically nobody is even taking Kobe 12th. He'd be lucky to crack the top 20.

That's the genuine measure of how much a player is valued IMO. How many guys would you draft ahead of him? Everything else is just a product of circumstance. I don't understand why people insist on making judgements that way.

Kobe is fortunate to be considered 12th. Let's just celebrate it for what it is. A generous ranking that the Lebron Family is merciful enough to even acknowledge. Long live 12Be!

Akrazotile

07-22-2016, 09:48 PM

meltdown. In terms of impact he's not even top 20...it's absurd for him to be over Dream who completely carried a team on his back to a championship.

This is the real talk.

I'm not even hatin or trollin or anything... I respect Kobe for the talent he has. But it surprises me people think he is one of the 12 most useful players in basketball ever. He's not really even close.

ShawkFactory

07-22-2016, 10:06 PM

Eh.

I have him at about 8 or 9. Switches depending on the day.

Wouldn't really argue too much with anything from 6-12

tmacattack33

07-22-2016, 10:27 PM

knicksman

07-23-2016, 12:33 AM

Its all about respect. Kobes 2nd option rings is more respected than brans ringchasers. And when it matters, game 7 against por or 4th quarters against tougher western teams, hes the one who delivers so he really is the 1st option. Shaq is useless in the clutch thats why he cant win without kobe/wade. The guy is getting sweeps after sweeps despite having 60+ win teams before kobe came around.

So when its all said and done, kobe has 5 rings. Lebron 3 ringchasers rings is not even worth 1. And were not even accounting for the refs here.

Only losers give value to mvps. Lol

Lebronxrings

07-23-2016, 12:42 AM

knicksman

07-23-2016, 12:48 AM

so where do you rank him then fakit? Knick fans are so stupid

Why you mad tho? Coz the truth hurts? You have low standards thats why your respect is easily earned. Lol only losers settle for less

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:26 AM

Kobe's just gonna drop lower and lower as time goes on and more people realize how overrated he was.

not making the playoffs at his peak is a damning indictment. even Lillard with a shitty ass team carried his team to the playoffs.It's more than that. As people get more into statistics and analytics, Kobe is going to keep plummeting on most people's all time lists. The horrible shooting. The inefficient play. The sub-par DPM. That's all going to be focused on and his numbers are going to be his downfall.

Once the narrative of "killer" "clutch gene" and the ilk fades and people start comparing him rationally like the rest of the players, he's dropping further and further down.

It's not an insult to him either. If we're talking about basketball play, he's just not at that level.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 04:36 AM

Kobe's just gonna drop lower and lower as time goes on and more people realize how overrated he was.

not making the playoffs at his peak is a damning indictment. even Lillard with a shitty ass team carried his team to the playoffs.

Kobe has one prime year not making the playoffs, 2004-5, and they were in playoff contention until he got injured. 2005-6 and 2006-7 he made the playoffs and lost to a much superior Suns team.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 04:59 AM

Kobe has one prime year not making the playoffs, 2004-5, and they were in playoff contention until he got injured. 2005-6 and 2006-7 he made the playoffs and lost to a much superior Suns team.

Even when he returned in 2005, they kept losing because he was abysmal. He shot 43% that season and the Lakers had a 34-38 record.

They got the easy schedule early on and were bound to lose when they hit the hard stretch.
In 2006 and 2007, Phil Jackson came back and the Lakers reached the first round while failing to win a single playoff series.

In 2006, they faced a suns team missing Amare. It was Nash carrying the likes of Marion and James Jones past the Lakers. In the 7th and deciding game, Kobe Bryant had 1 point in the 2nd half and took only 3 shots. He was badly outplayed by a kid newbie Barbara. Nash showed why he was the MVP and lead the Suns to a route to cap off a 3-1 comeback.

2007 Kobe came out gunning and trying to get points. They won't won 42 games (less than the previous season) and that is why they were matched up with the Suns. They got spanked in 5 and Nash and Kobe spent the off-season crying about not having enough help, throwing teammates under the bus, and trying to force a trade to Chicago.

After Shaq left and before Gasol came, the Lakers had an overall losing record, below 0.500 and Kobe failed to win a single playoffs series.

What he did do though was miss the playoffs for only the 2nd time in Lakers franchise history (he would do the same the past 3 years ofrcourse), then capitulate and choke a 3-1 series lead (only the 8th team to ever do that at the time) and score 1 point in the 2nd half of the biggest game of the season.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 05:02 AM

The best and most comprehensive list i've ever seen has Kobe at 14.

SI has him at 12, as does ESPN.

It's likely that if he wasn't so popular and didn't play for the Lakers, that ESPN and SI would have him closer to 14.

This is what I was saying. On any moderated neutral forum, he wouldn't be as high as 12. He's only ranked that highly on here because of the Laker stans and because of hi s popularity. If we're talking about actual basketball play, he's closer to 15th all time.

Either way, he'll keep dropping.. it's nothing against him. He just wasn't that good, unfortunately.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 05:53 AM

Even when he returned in 2005, they kept losing because he was abysmal. He shot 43% that season and the Lakers had a 34-38 record.

They got the easy schedule early on and were bound to lose when they hit the hard stretch.
In 2006 and 2007, Phil Jackson came back and the Lakers reached the first round while failing to win a single playoff series.

In 2006, they faced a suns team missing Amare. It was Nash carrying the likes of Marion and James Jones past the Lakers. In the 7th and deciding game, Kobe Bryant had 1 point in the 2nd half and took only 3 shots. He was badly outplayed by a kid newbie Barbara. Nash showed why he was the MVP and lead the Suns to a route to cap off a 3-1 comeback.

2007 Kobe came out gunning and trying to get points. They won't won 42 games (less than the previous season) and that is why they were matched up with the Suns. They got spanked in 5 and Nash and Kobe spent the off-season crying about not having enough help, throwing teammates under the bus, and trying to force a trade to Chicago.

After Shaq left and before Gasol came, the Lakers had an overall losing record, below 0.500 and Kobe failed to win a single playoffs series.

What he did do though was miss the playoffs for only the 2nd time in Lakers franchise history (he would do the same the past 3 years ofrcourse), then capitulate and choke a 3-1 series lead (only the 8th team to ever do that at the time) and score 1 point in the 2nd half of the biggest game of the season.

All that noise doesn't make a difference to what I said. The other guy's statement was erroneous. The ONLY year prime Kobe didn't make the playoffs was an injury year. Right or wrong? I know you don't like Kobe so I would expect your comment to have a negative spin. I know what happened when he got to the playoffs, but that's not what's being discussed.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 08:27 AM

All that noise doesn't make a difference to what I said. The other guy's statement was erroneous. The ONLY year prime Kobe didn't make the playoffs was an injury year. Right or wrong? I know you don't like Kobe so I would expect your comment to have a negative spin. I know what happened when he got to the playoffs, but that's not what's being discussed.

That's exactly what's being discussed. Me liking or not liking a player is irrelevant. The guy claimed that Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. That's a fact. Not an erroneous statement as you claimed.

They missed the playoffs because they ended the season 2-20 AFTER Kobe returned from injury. Ironically, they played better than that when he missed a solitary month of the seasons 8 due to ane ankle sprain.

They won 34 games that season because Kobe Bryant - in the midst of his prime no less - was abysmal, shooting 43% for the season. They lost 20 of their last 22 to miss the playoffs and get overtaken by a nuggets team lead by a sophomore Carmelo Anthony.

Had Kobe played better as the season closed, they might have made the playoffs. Instead they choked what looked to be a certain playoff birth because the highest paid player on the team couldn't hit a rock in the ocean and was intent on winning the scoring title - ANOTHER thing he failed at that year.

The following year Phil Jackson came along.

red1

07-23-2016, 09:15 AM

in terms of resume and accomplishments he is definitely top 10 somewhere around 7-10

in terms of all-time impact he can go much lower than that

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 09:59 AM

That's exactly what's being discussed. Me liking or not liking a player is irrelevant. The guy claimed that Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime. That's a fact. Not an erroneous statement as you claimed.

They missed the playoffs because they ended the season 2-20 AFTER Kobe returned from injury. Ironically, they played better than that when he missed a solitary month of the seasons 8 due to ane ankle sprain.

Ummm no, that's what you're bringing into the mix. The guy earlier said prime Kobe missed the playoffs, quite simply. And I responded accordingly. You're the one bringing the extra noise into it so no, it wasn't being discussed between myself and the other poster and its only being discussed now because you're raising it. The only season that would be applicable is the 2005 year when he was injured. Obviously when Kobe went down, considering how dependent they were on him, the teams playoff hopes went with them. When he came back, obviously he wasn't himself nor was the team. The fact that the same team made the playoffs the following years indicates that 2005 was an aberration. So to make a blanket statement that 'prime Kobe missed the playoffs' as if he played the entire year,or that the team wouldn't be impacted by his loss, or him being out of rhythm when he returned, is disingenuous when there are circumstances that don't get dismissed from the equation just because you choose to spin it in whatever way makes Kobe look bad. They were 18-15 and in the playoff race when he went down, pretty much on pace to win roughly the same number of games that got them into the playoff the following years with the same shitty roster.

SpaceJam

07-23-2016, 10:05 AM

In 2006, they faced a suns team missing Amare. It was Nash carrying the likes of Marion and James Jones past the Lakers.

So you're gonna mention Nash 'carrying' the likes of 18ppg Marion, 18ppg Diaw, 15ppg Tim Thomas. But ignore Kobe had had the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton STARTING.

:kobe:

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 10:13 AM

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 10:14 AM

So you're gonna mention Nash 'carrying' the likes of 18ppg Marion, 18ppg Diaw, 15ppg Tim Thomas. But ignore Kobe had had the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton STARTING.

:kobe:

He knows what hes doing, omitting whatever helps his argument. The Suns roster even without Amare was way better than the Lakers. The fact that they won 54 fcuking games without him should tell you how potent that team was.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 10:15 AM

So you're gonna mention Nash 'carrying' the likes of 18ppg Marion, 18ppg Diaw, 15ppg Tim Thomas. But ignore Kobe had had the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton STARTING.

:kobe:

Walton was a solid player tbh.. and Odom was arguably better than any teammate Nash had.

The Suns did have the better roster, but without Stoudemire it wasnt all that much.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 10:20 AM

No they werent, they really started losing when Odom got injured (3-18).

They were 18-15 and in the playoff race when Kobe went down Jan 13th. Kobe was also battling planter facsiitis that year. I'm not even a Kobe stan, but damn man, at least make honest arguments( not directed at you).

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 10:24 AM

Walton was a solid player tbh.. and Odom was arguably better than any teammate Nash had.

The Suns did have the better roster, but without Stoudemire it wasnt all that much.

Better than Marion? No. A case can be made that he wasn't even much better than Diaw that year, if at all. Then you had Raja Bell, Barbosa,Tim Thomas, Kurt Thomas providing a solid veteran presence.... way better roster.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 11:04 AM

They were 18-15 and in the playoff race when Kobe went down Jan 13th. Kobe was also battling planter facsiitis that year. I'm not even a Kobe stan, but damn man, at least make honest arguments( not directed at you).And Kobe came back and ended the season 2-20. Lost 20 of his last 22 games because he couldn't shoot to save his life. That is why they didn't make the playoffs.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 11:06 AM

Better than Marion? No. A case can be made that he wasn't even much better than Diaw that year, if at all. Then you had Raja Bell, Barbosa,Tim Thomas, Kurt Thomas providing a solid veteran presence.... way better roster.If you think Marion was better than Odom then you know nothing about basketball nd I'm not sure any of us should even bother responding.

This gets worse and worse.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 11:07 AM

No they werent, they really started losing when Odom got injured (3-18).

He doesn't know what he's talking about. That's the issue. I feel like I'm talking to someone who wasn't around and is just box score watching.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 11:09 AM

So you're gonna mention Nash 'carrying' the likes of 18ppg Marion, 18ppg Diaw, 15ppg Tim Thomas. But ignore Kobe had had the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton STARTING.

:kobe:Yes. Nash knows how to make his teammates better. Kobe is the guy who could have Artest, Gasol, Dwight and Nash himself and wouldn't let anyone touch the ball so their offense suffers.

Those numbers. It's incredible what a real leader and an all time great point guard can do, eh?

And that's why he was the MVP and Kobe wasn't.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 12:34 PM

And Kobe came back and ended the season 2-20. Lost 20 of his last 22 games because he couldn't shoot to save his life. That is why they didn't make the playoffs.

To which I already said, Kobe missing time not only disrupted his own timing, so he 'stunk' when he returned, but that of the team. They were 18-15 before he got injured, so obviously the poor play at the end didn't occur without cause.

If you think Marion was better than Odom then you know nothing about basketball nd I'm not sure any of us should even bother responding.

This gets worse and worse.

No-one but you would say that Odom was better than Marion in 2006. But, you have to perpetrate the idea that there was some parity between Kobe's Lakers teammates and the Suns, to fuel the agenda. Marion in 2006 was 22 and 12, compared to Odom's 15 and 9. Marion was an all-star and third team all-NBA, 3rd in defensive winshares, 3rd in steals. Nothing exists in reality to back up your retarded claim. Even if you want to use the argument that Marion's offensive numbers were partly attributed to Nash's playmaking, they're in a different stratosphere as defenders. Odom's lone edge was as a playmaker/passer. You're so transparently fixated on your anti-Kobe agenda that you'll resort to near blasphemy to argue. And like I said before, I'm not even a Kobe 'stan', argued against him plenty of times when people compared him and MJ. But I don't have to a stan of one guy( which you are with Bron) to resort to foolish arguments just to prop your guy up.

He doesn't know what he's talking about. That's the issue. I feel like I'm talking to someone who wasn't around and is just box score watching.

After saying what you said about Marion and Odom, those words should never leave your mouth about anyone else. You're clueless.

TheWinningFam

07-23-2016, 12:37 PM

Kobe's fine at 12th, that spot is generous enough as is :facepalm

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 12:40 PM

They were 18-15 and in the playoff race when Kobe went down Jan 13th. Kobe was also battling planter facsiitis that year. I'm not even a Kobe stan, but damn man, at least make honest arguments( not directed at you).

I mean, besides the fact that the league didnt have any solid depth '05-'07, Lakers had a horrible record with or without him, they were somewhat in the playoff hunt until Odom missed the last month of the season, and the Lakers went 3-18.

Having Odom/Butler on your team before that, he should have done ALOT better.

Its just the type of off year that Kobe tends to have at times. This time, he had two in a row, which is bad for someone claiming top 10-15 placement.

scuzzy

07-23-2016, 12:42 PM

Kobe's fine at 12th, that spot is generous enough as is :facepalm
Welcome back bro!:cheers:

My boys Feeny and AW sniping all types of kobe fanboys in this thread :lol

Stringer Bell

07-23-2016, 12:52 PM

Lower end of the top 10 or just outside of it seems fair.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 12:54 PM

I mean, besides the fact that the league didnt have any solid depth '05-'07, Lakers had a horrible record with or without him, they were somewhat in the playoff hunt until Odom missed the last month of the season, and the Lakers went 3-18.

Having Odom/Butler on your team before that, he should have done ALOT better.

Its just the type of off year that Kobe tends to have at times. This time, he had two in a row, which is bad for someone claiming top 10-15 placement.

The west was plenty competitive between 05-07. Spurs, Mavs, Suns were very good teams. Memphis, Clippers, Nuggets were at least decent. The east was mediocre after the top 3 teams, which has been the case for years. I think you're overrating Odom and Butler if you think those guys were enough help to compete with the best of the west those years. Kobe had his flaws, but there's no way the team he had between 05-07 should have been much beyond what they were, first round fodder for the western elite.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 12:58 PM

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 01:02 PM

The west was plenty competitive between 05-07. Spurs, Mavs, Suns were very good teams. Memphis, Clippers, Nuggets were at least decent. The east was mediocre after the top 3 teams, which has been the case for years. I think you're overrating Odom and Butler if you think those guys were enough help to compete with the best of the west those years. Kobe had his flaws, but there's no way the team he had between 05-07 should have been much beyond what they were, first round fodder for the western elite.

The '05-'07 West had good top heavy competition, but it droped off pretty badly after that... Dirk himself in a Nash Grantland Video said so.

lol, Bryant/Odom/Butler isn't enough in the West of 2005? Have you taken a look at the 3 best players of teams AFTER Mavs/Spurs/Suns? Heck, take a look at Dirk's two best teammates in '05....

Or Ray Allen, please take a look at Allen's roster...

it was worse than what Kobe had, and friggin Ray Allen took the Sonics to the second round...

but for Kobe it was some unachievable thing?

Please dude.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 01:09 PM

Kobe closed the '04/'05 season out on a 2-17 run, that is WITH Butler in the lineup for ALL 19 games, AND Odom for the first 4, which they lost all...

its safe to say, THAT run kicked them out of the playoffs... Kobe shot 44.5% during the stretch (pretty ordinary for him) and had a -9.3 net rating.

I'm not arguing that he sucked to end the season. Are you going to discount the injury impacting his play, and that of the team? If you want to go on that angle, that Kobe's post-injury play was detrimental because he wasn't healthy....ok. But the team was not on that slant before his injury, and the exact same team won 45 games the following year. The 2005 year is not representative of what that team was capable of, which was a 42-45 win 8th seed. No, not great, decidedly mediocre. But 34 wins in 2005 does come with caveats that can't just be dismissed.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 01:17 PM

The '05-'07 West had good top heavy competition, but it droped off pretty badly after that... Dirk himself in a Nash Grantland Video said so.

lol, Bryant/Odom/Butler isn't enough in the West of 2005? Have you taken a look at the 3 best players of teams AFTER Mavs/Spurs/Suns? Heck, take a look at Dirk's two best teammates in '05....

Or Ray Allen, please take a look at Allen's roster...

it was worse than what Kobe had, and friggin Ray Allen took the Sonics to the second round...

but for Kobe it was some unachievable thing?

Please dude.

Why are you holding up Odom and Butler as if they were superstar talents? Odom was good but inconsistent, Butler was a quality role player.

The Sonics had Rashard Lewis as well as Ray Allen, two all-stars on the team. The rest of their roster wasn't worse than the likes of Chirs Mihm, and Chucky Atkin FFS

The Mavs? Dirk, Josh Howard, Michael Finley, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse. That's not better than what the Lakers were fielding?

But, fixate on 2005 because that's the only season that Kobe didn't play the playoffs, and ignore the circumstances. We'll forget that Kobe took them to 45 wins the following year with Odom, no Butler, and Smush Parker as the starting fcuking PG, basically less than he had to work with in 2005, but the team was better.

Yes, please dude.

tpols

07-23-2016, 01:46 PM

lmao AW.. the guy didnt start watching basketball til sometime around big 3 heat.. he knows **** all about anything hes talking about in this thread.

the mid 00s west was stacked w/ talented teams, while the east was a straight shit show.. between detroit falling off their peak hard, and before boston big 3 joined up, it had worst conference all time written all over it.. rivaled by only today's east of recent years.

Having lamar odom and a bunch of trash cans isnt enough to make much splash.. almost upsetting a juggernaut Suns team? Thats about as far as you'd expect.. but got unlucky. One shot made the difference and it didnt go Laker's or Kobe's way..

http://i.giphy.com/3dDsfGxAsW9lm.gif

this was literally the exact same situation that the Heat were met with in 2013.. game 6, down 3, missed first shot, offensive rebound and kickout for a series saving shot.

same shot, nobody talks about it much though.. Tim misses, and Kobe takes a team of Odom and scrubs to probably the WCF's since they could've definitely beaten the Clippers, and then Dallas , the team Kobe that year dropped 63 on through 3Q's ? lol

AW you must still have nightmares of that bro..

but the point is its silly to say player x didn't make the playoffs or couldn't get out of the first round, when player x was playing in a much tougher conference.

like for example.. the 2007 Cavs would've been a 6 seed w/ only 50 wins in the 2007 West. This would have pitted them against the Spurs in the first round.. instead of the Finals. And then trolls could come on here and point and say "hah! lebron coudln't get out of the first round" Meanwhile Kobe's team w/ 42 wins in the East in that same year would've led to a first round matchup with the raptors.. and we dont need to go into much detail on what kobe was able to do to them.. so as you can see your arguments are transparent, and you're attempting to compare two things like they are playing under equal circumstances when theyre not...

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 01:51 PM

Kobe closed the '04/'05 season out on a 2-17 run, that is WITH Butler in the lineup for ALL 19 games, AND Odom for the first 4, which they lost all...

its safe to say, THAT run kicked them out of the playoffs... Kobe shot 44.5% during the stretch (pretty ordinary for him) and had a -9.3 net rating.2-20, I think.

They were well in position to make the playoffs and then somehow, some way choked what seemed like an inevitable playoff birth with Kobe playing HORERNDOUSLY in the final Stretch.

He missed the playoffs in his prime with one of the biggest failures of a season in Lakers franchise history. He then choked a 3-1 lead the following year in the 1st round and scored 1 point in the second half of the biggest game of the season.

That 3 year stretch (peak kobe) was abysmal. It's almost embarassing,compared to the all time greats.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 01:53 PM

SouBeachTalents

07-23-2016, 01:54 PM

2-20, I think.

They were well in position to make the playoffs and then somehow, some way choked what seemed like an inevitable playoff birth with Kobe playing HORERNDOUSLY in the final Stretch.

He missed the playoffs in his prime with one of the biggest failures of a season in Lakers franchise history. He then choked a 3-1 lead the following year in the 1st round and scored 1 point in the second half of the biggest game of the season.

That 3 year stretch (peak kobe) was abysmal. It's almost embarassing,compared to the all time greats.

Kareem missed the playoffs back to back years in his prime, while Hakeem didn't win a playoff series for 5 straight seasons

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 01:55 PM

Kobe's fine at 12th, that spot is generous enough as is :facepalmwelcome back fam!

Check out the Kobe stans melting down over here over Kobe's failure in 2005 :roll:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 01:56 PM

like for example.. the 2007 Cavs would've been a 6 seed w/ only 50 wins in the 2007 West. This would have pitted them against the Spurs in the first round.. instead of the Finals.

Or, put Lebron on the Lakers with Odom, Luke Walton, Smush, and Kwame, a team that for all purposes would be ill-suited to his drive and kick talents that allowed mediocre talents like Boobie Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Damon Jones to shoot 38-42% and have some modicum of success playing alongside Bron. No, give him the shit that Kobe had in 2007, he'd make the playoffs as a 7-8th seed and get bounced out of the playoffs by the Spurs in the first round of the west instead of the finals.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 01:58 PM

Kareem missed the playoffs back to back years in his prime, while Hakeem didn't win a playoff series for 5 straight seasons

None of them played for s franchise that was used to success like the Lakers and delivered a season as disappointing as that.
Heck, Lebron missed the playoffs as a rookie. But he led scrubs to 40 wins.

Kobe finished the season losing 20 of the last 22 games and choked away a playoff birth, why nobody else can say they did.
He played almost no defense and had one though in his mind - gunning for the scoring title. He shot horribly and cost the Lakers.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:01 PM

Or, put Lebron on the Lakers with Odom, Luke Walton, Smush, and Kwame, a team that for all purposes would be ill-suited to his drive and kick talents that allowed mediocre talents like Boobie Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Damon Jones to shoot 38-42% and have some modicum of success playing alongside Bron. No, give him the shit that Kobe had in 2007, he'd make the playoffs as a 7-8th seed and get bounced out of the playoffs by the Spurs in the first round of the west instead of the finals.

Unfortunately, Lebron is much better than Kobe and would in no way have lead that team to anything lower than a 5th seed. Kobe, an inferior player, unable to lead the same level of talent to better records had to run into Steve Nash. And got embarassed. 1 point in the second half of the season.

Lebron lead Boobie Gibson to look like a star by creating - something Kobe has never been able to do. That's the difference between a top 2 player and a 12th ranked player.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:01 PM

Phil Jackson came and implemented the triangle and the Lakers made the playoffs, yes. Where Kobe had 1 point in the second half of the biggest game of the season and was embarassed by a kid Barbosa.

Any way you attempt to spin this, Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime by losing 20 of the Lakers final 22 games that season to choke away a playoff birth.

Don't bore me with the 'everything Phil touches turns to gold' BS. Kobe had to play out of his mind offensively often breaking the triangle for that team to be remotely competitive.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:03 PM

Don't bore me with the 'everything Phil touches turns to gold' BS. Kobe had to play out of his mind offensively often breaking the triangle for that team to be remotely competitive.

Shooting 45% percent and averaging 4 assists a game is not something that's top notch. If that's Kobe playing out of his mind, then it says a lot about Kobe's inferiority offensively.

Don't "bore" me with crap. Make a solid point or don't waste my time.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:13 PM

Unfortunately, Lebron is much better than Kobe and would in no way have lead that team to anything lower than a 5th seed. Kobe, an inferior player, unable to lead the same level of talent to better records had to run into Steve Nash. And got embarassed. 1 point in the second half of the season.

Lebron lead Boobie Gibson to look like a star by creating - something Kobe has never been able to do. That's the difference between a top 2 player and a 12th ranked player.

2007 Lebron wasn't better than Kobe. Wasn't a great defender at that point, nor was he a better offensive player. Didn't have guys like Gibson, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall to spread the floor and drive/kick to. Lower seed at best, and gets bounced out of the west before sniffing the finals.

Lebron averaged 3.3 points per game in the 2011 finals, at his peak, getting thoroughly destroyed by Dirk in the clutch. He scored 6 points in the second half of game 7 in 2006 vs Detroit. And he was up 3-2 with a chance to close them out at home, if only he hadn't bricked his way to 8-20 shooting and only wound up with 32 because he had a party at the free-throw line( 15-18).

Don't act like your boy has a flawless resume, either.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:18 PM

Shooting 45% percent and averaging 4 assists a game is not something that's top notch. If that's Kobe playing out of his mind, then it says a lot about Kobe's inferiority offensively.

Don't "bore" me with crap. Make a solid point or don't waste my time.

No, but averaging 35ppg certainly is,dumbass.

We've seen what Lebron does when he has to take high volume shots and not protect his field goal percentages. Check his shooting percentages against the Warriors in the 2015 finals when he has to take high volume of shots, and not have the luxury of enough talent around him to pick his spots and protect his percentages.

If you're bored, no-one's holding a gun to your head to keep posting. In fact, I wish you'd stop polluting the board with your BS and stop.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:19 PM

2007 Lebron wasn't better than Kobe. Wasn't a great defender at that point, nor was he a better offensive player. Didn't have guys like Gibson, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall to spread the floor and drive/kick to. Lower seed at best, and gets bounced out of the west before sniffing the finals.

Lebron averaged 3.3 points per game in the 2011 finals, at his peak, getting thoroughly destroyed by Dirk in the clutch. He scored 6 points in the second half of game 7 in 2006 vs Detroit. And he was up 3-2 with a chance to close them out at home, if only he hadn't bricked his way to 8-20 shooting and only wound up with 32 because he had a party at the free-throw line( 15-18).

Don't act like your boy has a flawless resume, either.

Who's my boy? I'm a Jordan fan, numbnuts.
And a 22 year old lebron was capable of putting up better performances than any version of Kobe as he did in game 5 at the palace scoring 25 straight points and the game winner on the road. He single handedly took a d-league team to the finals.

As far as 2011 goes, he got 2 games against Dallas and shot 47% in his first year as the team was still learning how to gel. Kobe, coming off a title and heavily favored, got swept and was nowhere to be found as they lost by 36 in the final game to give Jackson the worst possible send off.

Do you know anything about basketball or do you want to waste my time further?

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:21 PM

No, but averaging 35ppg certainly is,dumbass.

We've seen what Lebron does when he has to take high volume shots and not protect his field goal percentages. Check his shooting percentages against the Warriors in the 2015 finals when he has to take high volume of shots, and not have the luxury of enough talent around him to pick his spots and protect his percentages.

If you're bored, no-one's holding a gun to your head to keep posting. In fact, I wish you'd stop polluting the board with your BS and stop.

Numbnuts here has managed to compare 1 series with an entire season. Great stuff:applause:
God, this board at times.
4 assists and 45%fg is not eye-popping for me. If it is for you, great.

I'd take 31.5 ppg and 6 apg on 48% like LeBron did in the SAME season as a 21 year old.
Carry on.

tpols

07-23-2016, 02:23 PM

Or, put Lebron on the Lakers with Odom, Luke Walton, Smush, and Kwame, a team that for all purposes would be ill-suited to his drive and kick talents that allowed mediocre talents like Boobie Gibson, Sasha Pavlovic and Damon Jones to shoot 38-42% and have some modicum of success playing alongside Bron. No, give him the shit that Kobe had in 2007, he'd make the playoffs as a 7-8th seed and get bounced out of the playoffs by the Spurs in the first round of the west instead of the finals.

they might not even make the playoffs tbh .. Odom is very redundant with bron, both do it all, like to handle a lot.. combine that with smush and you have 3 point guards.. Kobe's extreme niche for scoring made for a much better pairing with Lamar imo.

and i know the names sound bad, but it wasn't even the offense that was god awful it was the defense.. all of the role players couldn't play defense either, and thats something Lebron's teams always had.. hell his 2007 team was 18th ranked offense under his helm, but 4th ranked defense.. and this was before bron had really developed into a great defensive player.. he simply had more help overall when you factor in defensive help.. and then throw in conferences? couldnt be more apples and oranges

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 02:24 PM

tpols

07-23-2016, 02:28 PM

Who's my boy? I'm a Jordan fan, numbnuts.

no you're not.. you're hardcore bran stan.. tried to stan curry, but got shit on for being totally wrong, and have subsequently swept that under the rug.. now you're a jordan fan .. lmao.

feeny wheres the :banana: :lebronamazed: :roll: ??

you're just kinda :ohwell: today

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:29 PM

Who's my boy? I'm a Jordan fan, numbnuts.
And a 22 year old lebron was capable of putting up better performances than any version of Kobe as he did in game 5 at the palace scoring 25 straight points and the game winner on the road. He single handedly took a d-league team to the finals.

As far as 2011 goes, he got 2 games against Dallas and shot 47% in his first year as the team was still learning how to gel. Kobe, coming off a title and heavily favored, got swept and was nowhere to be found as they lost by 36 in the final game to give Jackson the worst possible send off.

Do you know anything about basketball or do you want to waste my time further?

Please, I've seen you on the forum enough with your 'Lebron fam' BS especially since the Cavs won. You being a Jordan boy doesn't dismiss that you're also a Lebron ******ger, seen plenty from you to make that obvious.

Lebron got wrecked in the finals, spare me the BS about the team gelling. Just as you can ignore context when arguing about Kobe's 2005 season and the Lakers not making the playoffs, so can I. 'Gelling' didn't seem to be an issue against the Celtics and Bulls in getting to the finals.

Its your own stupidity if you're slobbering at the chance to respond to my posts. If you admit that your time is being wasted, you make yourself look even more stupid( as hard as that is to imagine right now) by continuing. So...do go on.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:32 PM

Numbnuts here has managed to compare 1 series with an entire season. Great stuff:applause:
God, this board at times.
4 assists and 45%fg is not eye-popping for me. If it is for you, great.

I'd take 31.5 ppg and 6 apg on 48% like LeBron did in the SAME season as a 21 year old.

Carry on.

3.3ppg in the finals in your prime isn't eye-popping either, but you know. The team was 'gelling'( never mind the level they played against teams like the Celtics and Bulls whose core had been together longer).

Carry on.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 02:36 PM

they might not even make the playoffs tbh .. Odom is very redundant with bron, both do it all, like to handle a lot.. combine that with smush and you have 3 point guards.. Kobe's extreme niche for scoring made for a much better pairing with Lamar imo.

and i know the names sound bad, but it wasn't even the offense that was god awful it was the defense.. all of the role players couldn't play defense either, and thats something Lebron's teams always had.. hell his 2007 team was 18th ranked offense under his helm, but 4th ranked defense.. and this was before bron had really developed into a great defensive player.. he simply had more help overall when you factor in defensive help.. and then throw in conferences? couldnt be more apples and oranges

I was being generous, I'm not sure he makes the playoffs in 2007 either, definitely not as a 5th seed like that clown predicted. :lol This fool can't reconcile in his mind the difference between playing in the east vs the west in the mid 2000s( or hell, now for that matter and for most of the past 15 years at least). You had Allen Iverson 15 years ago binge shooting at 40% and taking Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Eric Snow, and Mutumbo to the finals, to show you how extremely mediocre has been and for how long.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 02:49 PM

Why are you holding up Odom and Butler as if they were superstar talents? Odom was good but inconsistent, Butler was a quality role player.

The Sonics had Rashard Lewis as well as Ray Allen, two all-stars on the team. The rest of their roster wasn't worse than the likes of Chirs Mihm, and Chucky Atkin FFS

The Mavs? Dirk, Josh Howard, Michael Finley, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse. That's not better than what the Lakers were fielding?

But, fixate on 2005 because that's the only season that Kobe didn't play the playoffs, and ignore the circumstances. We'll forget that Kobe took them to 45 wins the following year with Odom, no Butler, and Smush Parker as the starting fcuking PG, basically less than he had to work with in 2005, but the team was better.

Yes, please dude.

Allen took Rashard Lewis and Luke Ridnour to the second round... but Odom and Butler aren't enough for Kobe? Lol.. Ironically, Allen's next best teammate was Radmanovic, who'd become a Laker two years later.

Butler of course immediately became an all star after leaving LA, when Kobe demanded a trade for him at the end of the season... So reading would help you here, dont put words in anyones mouth.

Basically Kobe had a shit year in '05, and Im sure some of the bad leader stuff was inflicted on his teammates there, he should have gotten more out of that team, and more out of Odom/Butler. His J was super bad. Also his form looks really ugly that year.

@ tpols

"the mid 00s west was stacked w/ talented teams"

looool... so why did Dirk say he doesn't believe his mid 00 west teams could achieve the same success in the '14 West? That West was stacked with talented teams... the mid '00 West had three talented teams, and thats it.

Dictator

07-23-2016, 02:54 PM

Russell- 5xMVP, 11xChampionships
Wilt- 1xFMVP, 4xMVP, 2xChampionships
Kareem- 2xFMVP, 6xMVP, 6xChampionships
Bird- 3xMVP, 2xFMVP, 3xChampionships
Magic- 3xFMVP, 3xMVP, 5xChampionships
Jordan- 6xFMVP, 5xMVP, 6xChampionships
Hakeem- 2xFMVP, 1xMVP, 2xChampionships
Shaq- 3xFMVP, 1xMVP, 4xChampionships
Duncan- 3xFMVP, 2xMVP, 5xChampionships
LeBron- 3xFMVP, 4xMVP, 3xChampionships
Kobe - 2xFMVP 1xMVP 5xChampionships

I feel like this is how you guys rank the players, with no context of the competition of the league, teams, or anything. :facepalm

warriorfan

07-23-2016, 02:59 PM

no you're not.. you're hardcore bran stan.. tried to stan curry, but got shit on for being totally wrong, and have subsequently swept that under the rug.. now you're a jordan fan .. lmao.

feeny wheres the :banana: :lebronamazed: :roll: ??

you're just kinda :ohwell: today

he is easily one of the least knowledgeable posters on the site

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 03:04 PM

Allen took Rashard Lewis and Luke Ridnour to the second round... but Odom and Butler aren't enough for Kobe? Lol.. Ironically, Allen's next best teammate was Radmanovic, who'd become a Laker two years later.

Butler of course immediately became an all star after leaving LA, when Kobe demanded a trade for him at the end of the season... So reading would help you here, dont put words in anyones mouth.

Ridnor was better than Smush And Chucky. Vladminor was better than Kwame ****ing Brown.

You continue to ignore that Kobe had the Lakers in playoff contention BEFORE getting injured. That injury set back Kobe's play to close the year upon return, and got the Lakers off the playoff track. If Kobe can take the team to the playoffs WITHOUT Butler on the team in 2006, why the fcuk would he not be able to do the same in 2005 when he had technically more help? Yes, getting injured and battling planter faciiticis( however the **** you spell it) would make for a 'shit' year. Breaking news at 7.

Butler became an all-star in the eastern conference 2 years after leaving LA, not sure what your definition of immediately is. Not all that hard to do in 2007 when most of the elite forwards are out west. 19 points, 7 rebounds and 3 assists on 46% being all-star worthy isn't an indictment against Kobe, it's indicative of the lack of forward competition in the east. He wouldn't sniff the all-star game in the west even if he went to different western team. He wasn't that great.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 03:08 PM

Allen took Rashard Lewis and Luke Ridnour to the second round... but Odom and Butler aren't enough for Kobe? Lol.. Ironically, Allen's next best teammate was Radmanovic, who'd become a Laker two years later.

Butler of course immediately became an all star after leaving LA, when Kobe demanded a trade for him at the end of the season... So reading would help you here, dont put words in anyones mouth.

Ridnor was better than Smush And Chucky. Vladminor was better than Kwame ****ing Brown.

You continue to ignore that Kobe had the Lakers in playoff contention BEFORE getting injured. That injury set back Kobe's play to close the year upon return, and got the Lakers off the playoff track. If Kobe can take the team to the playoffs WITHOUT Butler on the team in 2006, why the fcuk would he not be able to do the same in 2005 when he had technically more help?

Butler became an all-star in the eastern conference 2 years after leaving LA, not sure what your definition of immediately is. Not all that hard to do in 2007 when most of the elite forwards are out west; Duncan, Dirk, KG, Marion,Melo,Boozer,Amare. 19 points, 7 rebounds and 3 assists on 46% being all-star worthy isn't an indictment against Kobe, it's indicative of the lack of forward competition in the east relative to the west. He wouldn't sniff the all-star game in the west even if he went to a different western team. He wasn't that great, and outside of 2 years in Washington didn't do anything of note. It wasn't Kobe holding him back.

tpols

07-23-2016, 03:19 PM

@ tpols

"the mid 00s west was stacked w/ talented teams"

looool... so why did Dirk say he doesn't believe his mid 00 west teams could achieve the same success in the '14 West? That West was stacked with talented teams... the mid '00 West had three talented teams, and thats it.

because 2014 was probably the most lopsided conference disparity of all time .. im pretty sure all the numbers backed it up.. lol. If the mid 00s West was a 8/10, 2014 West was like a 9 or a 10.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 03:39 PM

Obviously when Kobe went down, considering how dependent they were on him, the teams playoff hopes went with them. When he came back, obviously he wasn't himself nor was the team.

Ridnor was better than Smush And Chucky. Vladminor was better than Kwame ****ing Brown.

You continue to ignore that Kobe had the Lakers in playoff contention BEFORE getting injured. That injury set back Kobe's play to close the year upon return, and got the Lakers off the playoff track.

The only thing that doesnt work with all of this... is that Kobe actually got better when he came back. That stretch through the first 33 games was his worst, and he shot 40.6%.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 03:43 PM

The only thing that doesnt work with all of this... is that Kobe actually got better when he came back. That stretch through the first 33 games was his worst, and he shot 40.6%.

So you don't think a team that reliant on Kobe wouldn't fall out of sync losing him for a stretch only for him to be reinserted weeks later? At no point was that team beyond average, but the first 33 games should indicate generally the direction they were headed.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 03:44 PM

because 2014 was probably the most lopsided conference disparity of all time .. im pretty sure all the numbers backed it up.. lol. If the mid 00s West was a 8/10, 2014 West was like a 9 or a 10.

I dont know man.. whats the 2008-2010 West? The top heavyness pales in comparison to 05-07, but theres better depth, right?

2014 West is no doubt like 10/10 stuff...

'00-'02 West always only had like two title candidates, with '02 being three, Mavericks not yet, but Kings instead. Not sure about even including SAS, with how bad they were next to Duncan. 2003 has to be the best year of the 00's, would you agree (even if LAL had a mediocre cast beyond Shaq/Kobe, but the conference at its best, with a healthy Webber/Dirk, has to be at the top IMO)

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 03:45 PM

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 03:58 PM

But they remained on the same path until Odom went off.. they were 32-31 at one point, and 32-35 when he got injured... I mean... all the same waters so far.

So what conclusions would you take from Kobe coming back, playing better as you say, and then losing Odom? You're keeping this one on the grill as long as you can, so tell me what all of that means in the end. And what changed the following year for them to make the playoffs( technically with a worse team because Butler had left who you keep touting)? What do you think 2006 Kobe would have done on the 2005 Lakers team, in terms of getting them to the playoffs?

Proctor

07-23-2016, 04:22 PM

So you don't think a team that reliant on Kobe wouldn't fall out of sync losing him for a stretch only for him to be reinserted weeks later? At no point was that team beyond average, but the first 33 games should indicate generally the direction they were headed.
You're arguing with someone who was likely not watching basketball at the time and almost certainly wasn't old enough to understand it if he were. Not trying to make a personal attack on AW because he can be a decent poster when he wants to be (which isn't very often) but to claim the Sonics had a worse roster than the Lakers is absurd. Allen and Lewis alone is more offensive firepower than the Lakers had in 05-06, a team chalk full of forward and center stiffs. Luke Walton was underrated but mostly a facilitator. Odom was the second best player and a very very good one who could do it all and lead the team in scoring on any given night. Aside from that it was a "who's gonna step up tonight?" tossup between the likes of Devean George and Brian Cook as players like Vujacic and Turiaf had yet to establish themselves. They were offensively anemic to say the least on any night where Kobe didn't drop 35 or Odom didn't play out of his mind facilitating for the hustle players. Throw Smush in there too since Kobe detractors like to throw his name around as proof of a supporting cast but that goon really benefited from a combination of Kobe getting all the attention and Odom's facilitation. He wasn't the worst player in the league or anything but anytime Smush did do anything right it was more of a surprise than anything else. While they did choke away their lead in the playoffs, I don't look back on that year now and hold that as a blemish on the great player who got them that far. :biggums: Meanwhile on the Sonics, Allen and Lewis were both 20-25ppg weapons, they had a capable scorer and high IQ PG in Luke Ridnour who was only improving, and players like Flip Murray, Antonio Daniels and Radmanovic who were all better than George and Cook. No, they weren't great, but they were more balanced,and they got as far as they were going to get too which just happened to be a little farther than the Lakers. Is that really the best knock on Kobe? :hammerhead:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 04:43 PM

You're arguing with someone who was likely not watching basketball at the time and almost certainly wasn't old enough to understand it if he were. Not trying to make a personal attack on AW because he can be a decent poster when he wants to be (which isn't very often) but to claim the Sonics had a worse roster than the Lakers is absurd. Allen and Lewis alone is more offensive firepower than the Lakers had in 05-06, a team chalk full of forward and center stiffs. Luke Walton was underrated but mostly a facilitator. Odom was the second best player and a very very good one who could do it all and lead the team in scoring on any given night. Aside from that it was a "who's gonna step up tonight?" tossup between the likes of Devean George and Brian Cook as players like Vujacic and Turiaf had yet to establish themselves. They were offensively anemic to say the least on any night where Kobe didn't drop 35 or Odom didn't play out of his mind facilitating for the hustle players. Throw Smush in there too since Kobe detractors like to throw his name around as proof of a supporting cast but that goon really benefited from a combination of Kobe getting all the attention and Odom's facilitation. He wasn't the worst player in the league or anything but anytime Smush did do anything right it was more of a surprise than anything else. While they did choke away their lead in the playoffs, I don't look back on that year now and hold that as a blemish on the great player who got them that far. :biggums: Meanwhile on the Sonics, Allen and Lewis were both 20-25ppg weapons, they had a capable scorer and high IQ PG in Luke Ridnour who was only improving, and players like Flip Murray, Antonio Daniels and Radmanovic who were all better than George and Cook. No, they weren't great, but they were more balanced,and they got as far as they were going to get too which just happened to be a little farther than the Lakers. Is that really the best knock on Kobe? :hammerhead:

Once it came up( not from AW) that Odom was better than prime Marion in an attempt to say the 06 Suns roster minus Amare wasn't much better than the Lakers roster, I realized I wasn't in a serious discussion. From that moment you sort of take your foot off the gas and humor the nonsense.

RRR3

07-23-2016, 04:43 PM

I'd like to hear how on earth anyone could argue Odom was better than prime Marion.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 04:48 PM

I'd like to hear how on earth anyone could argue Odom was better than prime Marion.

Here you go, seemed dead serious when he said it too. And accusing me of knowing nothing about basketball in the same light. Of course, after this blasphemous statement there was no supporting argument. But anyways, it's ISH. Come around when you're bored or if you want a laugh at the insanity, not serious basketball discussion

If you think Marion was better than Odom then you know nothing about basketball nd I'm not sure any of us should even bother responding.

This gets worse and worse.

RRR3

07-23-2016, 04:54 PM

Here you go, seemed dead serious when he said it too. And accusing me of knowing nothing about basketball in the same light. Of course, after this blasphemous statement there was no supporting argument. But anyways, it's ISH. Come around when you're bored or if you want a laugh at the insanity, not serious basketball discussion
I tend to place too much value on stats, I'll admit (was a baseball fanatic for a decade plus so that's why haha. Also hard to watch a ton of games a lot of the time). And I didn't watch Marion or Odom at their best outside of maybe a handful of playoff games here and there. But Marion has an absolutely massive edge in statistics as well as accolades, and is considered a far better defensive player as well. Furthermore, Marion was putting up big stats before Nash joined the Suns. After a solid rookie year, he put up 17.3/10.7/2.0/1.7/1.4 on 48% in his second season. In the 3 subsequent seasons before Nash arrived, he averaged 19.1/9.9/2.0/1.8/1.1 on 46.9%, 21.2/9.5/2.4/2.3/1.2 on 45.2%, and 19.0/9.3/2.7/2.1/1.3 on 44.0%. He also shot the 3 pretty well in that time frame, at least for 2 of those seasons. Odom never put up that kind of production.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 05:01 PM

I tend to place too much value on stats, I'll admit (was a baseball fanatic for a decade plus so that's why haha. Also hard to watch a ton of games a lot of the time). And I didn't watch Marion or Odom at their best outside of maybe a handful of playoff games here and there. But Marion has an absolutely massive edge in statistics as well as accolades, and is considered a far better defensive player as well. Furthermore, Marion was putting up big stats before Nash joined the Suns. After a solid rookie year, he put up 17.3/10.7/2.0/1.7/1.4 on 48% in his second season. In the 3 subsequent seasons before Nash arrived, he averaged 19.1/9.9/2.0/1.8/1.1 on 46.9%, 21.2/9.5/2.4/2.3/1.2 on 45.2%, and 19.0/9.3/2.7/2.1/1.3 on 44.0%. He also shot the 3 pretty well in that time frame, at least for 2 of those seasons. Odom never put up that kind of production.

For the season in question( 2006) Marion was third team all-NBA, 3rd is defensive winshares, put up 22 and 12. Like you said, even before Nash came on the scene he was a 19/9 guy. Not a first option talent, but a legit all-star in his prime and one of the better perimeter defenders of his day. Odom has an edge in playmaking and passing, nothing else really. Very talented, but inconsistent and didn't really max out. Laughable to say that Odom was better, by no measure can this really be argued in terms of production and results, but you know....agendas and all.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 05:05 PM

So what conclusions would you take from Kobe coming back, playing better as you say, and then losing Odom? You're keeping this one on the grill as long as you can, so tell me what all of that means in the end. And what changed the following year for them to make the playoffs( technically with a worse team because Butler had left who you keep touting)? What do you think 2006 Kobe would have done on the 2005 Lakers team, in terms of getting them to the playoffs?

2006 Kobe would have gotten them to the playoffs, because 2006 Kobe was better than 2005 Kobe. But thats no excuse on 2005 Kobe. 2007 Kobe also battled a few nags here or there. Many players have. Main point is, he could/should have snagged a low playoff spot, over a team like the Grizzlies or Nuggets. He should have made that much of a difference. And Im not sure if Kobe would ever really work with a guy like Butler. Too redundant. He wont make that work.

You're arguing with someone who was likely not watching basketball at the time and almost certainly wasn't old enough to understand it if he were. Not trying to make a personal attack on AW because he can be a decent poster when he wants to be (which isn't very often) but to claim the Sonics had a worse roster than the Lakers is absurd. Allen and Lewis alone is more offensive firepower than the Lakers had in 05-06, a team chalk full of forward and center stiffs. Luke Walton was underrated but mostly a facilitator. Odom was the second best player and a very very good one who could do it all and lead the team in scoring on any given night. Aside from that it was a "who's gonna step up tonight?" tossup between the likes of Devean George and Brian Cook as players like Vujacic and Turiaf had yet to establish themselves. They were offensively anemic to say the least on any night where Kobe didn't drop 35 or Odom didn't play out of his mind facilitating for the hustle players. Throw Smush in there too since Kobe detractors like to throw his name around as proof of a supporting cast but that goon really benefited from a combination of Kobe getting all the attention and Odom's facilitation. He wasn't the worst player in the league or anything but anytime Smush did do anything right it was more of a surprise than anything else. While they did choke away their lead in the playoffs, I don't look back on that year now and hold that as a blemish on the great player who got them that far. :biggums: Meanwhile on the Sonics, Allen and Lewis were both 20-25ppg weapons, they had a capable scorer and high IQ PG in Luke Ridnour who was only improving, and players like Flip Murray, Antonio Daniels and Radmanovic who were all better than George and Cook. No, they weren't great, but they were more balanced,and they got as far as they were going to get too which just happened to be a little farther than the Lakers. Is that really the best knock on Kobe? :hammerhead:

No, thats not how it works... Allen IS their leader. Its like saying Kobe had Kobe and Butler as help, we're comparing Allen's and Kobe's help, and you mention Allen as well (logic? Lol).. Allen had three double digit scorers next to him, and roughly the same help that Kobe had. Lets be real about that.

Ridnour and Flip Murray suddenly become world beaters... you know you'd talk just as bad about them like George, if they played next to Kobe.

Anyway, Id never say '06 or so is a blemish on Kobe. Ever. But then again, that depends to what standards you hold him to. Top 10? Im sure another top 10 guy like peak Hakeem or peak Bird, would have absolutely won that series.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 05:12 PM

2006 Kobe would have gotten them to the playoffs, because 2006 Kobe was better than 2005 Kobe. But thats no excuse on 2005 Kobe. 2007 Kobe also battled a few nags here or there. Many players have. Main point is, he could/should have snagged a low playoff spot, over a team like the Grizzlies or Nuggets. He should have made that much of a difference. And Im not sure if Kobe would ever really work with a guy like Butler. Too redundant. He wont make that work.

So why the dip? Why was Kobe so much worse in 2005? Yeah he had nagging injuries in 2007, but not all injuries are the same or impact your game in the same way. It's like saying player A has a bad back, and player B suffered a sprained ankle, and acting like they're the same level of injury. Kobe had planter in 2005 asides from the ankle injury, that shit is no joke. Otherwise, why would he be so dramatically worse in 2005 compared to, say, 2003? Without anything majorly impacting his game, 2005 should have been a great year for him otherwise.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 05:21 PM

So why the dip? Why was Kobe so much worse in 2005? Yeah he had nagging injuries in 2007, but not all injuries are the same or impact your game in the same way. It's like saying player A has a bad back, and player B suffered a sprained ankle, and acting like they're the same level of injury. Kobe had planter in 2005 asides from the ankle injury, that shit is no joke. Otherwise, why would he be so dramatically worse in 2005 compared to, say, 2003? Without anything majorly impacting his game, 2005 should have been a great year for him otherwise.

I mean, why was he so bad before the injury, then? Shooting 40.6% through 33 games? Really? And you're just gonna give him a pass? Its just playing bad... who knows what was going on behind doors.

But you cant imagine any scenario? Shaq just left, so did Phil... team was in shambles.... he received plenty of bad media... perhaps he cracked a bit mentally who knows. We dont need to know the exact reason, fact is he did bad, he already did bad in the '04 playoffs, extremely bad, and the mental distractions were the likely reason their, too... among having been selfish.

Proctor

07-23-2016, 05:35 PM

No, thats not how it works... Allen IS their leader. Its like saying Kobe had Kobe and Butler as help, we're comparing Allen's and Kobe's help, and you mention Allen as well (logic? Lol).. Allen had three double digit scorers next to him, and roughly the same help that Kobe had. Lets be real about that.

Ridnour and Flip Murray suddenly become world beaters... you know you'd talk just as bad about them like George, if they played next to Kobe.

Anyway, Id never say '06 or so is a blemish on Kobe. Ever. But then again, that depends to what standards you hold him to. Top 10? Im sure another top 10 guy like peak Hakeem or peak Bird, would have absolutely won that series.
Sonics above average players: Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Ridnour, Murray, Radmanovic, Collison
Lakers above average players: Kobe, Odom, Walton, Parker, Mihm, Kwame

If you ignore Allen and Kobe, I honestly believe Lewis and Odom come close enough to cancel eachother out enough for this conversation's sake (not saying one is better than the other, but in terms of what they brought their respective teams), and I would have Ridnour better than Smush, Murray/Walton close enough to a wash, and Radmanovic & Collison better than Mihm and Kwame. Mihm was ok but an injury prone stiff, and Collison was a young workhorse who's impact was far greater than Kwame's in less minutes.

Neither the Sonics role players or the Lakers role players were "world beaters"...but the Sonics had a much more talented, much less offensively anemic team than Kobe's.

I don't disagree when you say it's possible another top 10 player could have succeeded around '06, but this shouldn't force anyone to reconsider Kobe's spot amongst the greats. Surely if he had succeeded it would have only moved him up if anything, but I don't see how it could knock him down.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:22 PM

I mean, why was he so bad before the injury, then? Shooting 40.6% through 33 games? Really? And you're just gonna give him a pass? Its just playing bad... who knows what was going on behind doors.

But you cant imagine any scenario? Shaq just left, so did Phil... team was in shambles.... he received plenty of bad media... perhaps he cracked a bit mentally who knows. We dont need to know the exact reason, fact is he did bad, he already did bad in the '04 playoffs, extremely bad, and the mental distractions were the likely reason their, too... among having been selfish.Don't expect a reply. Expect numbnuts to go on a tangent talking about how a February injury means the star player who returns can't play well for the rest of the season.

Christ,the stupidity that's on this board is something else, at times.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:32 PM

Don't expect a reply. Expect numbnuts to go on a tangent

Still wasting time bruh?

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:33 PM

Still wasting time bruh?

Still chasing me around?

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:41 PM

I mean, why was he so bad before the injury, then? Shooting 40.6% through 33 games? Really? And you're just gonna give him a pass? Its just playing bad... who knows what was going on behind doors.

But you cant imagine any scenario? Shaq just left, so did Phil... team was in shambles.... he received plenty of bad media... perhaps he cracked a bit mentally who knows. We dont need to know the exact reason, fact is he did bad, he already did bad in the '04 playoffs, extremely bad, and the mental distractions were the likely reason their, too... among having been selfish.

Ok, so what you're saying is, circumstances may have played a part in his subpar play? Because that's pretty much all I've been saying all this time, not the same scenarios you're raising but the point I've been trying to make is, 2005 is more or less an aberration. When Kobe hit the start of his prime in 2001 until it ended in 2010, none of his seasons were as 'bad' as 2005. It's an aberration, that's all I'm saying.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:42 PM

Still chasing me around?

Still replying? Dont' be mad, the conversation ended with you bowing out and went to another thread and piggybacked on a 4 day discusion to blow off some steam. It's all good, broham :cheers:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:43 PM

Still replying?

Ask yourself :D

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:44 PM

Ask yourself :D
I can do this all day, you're the one who said you were wasting time earlier :cheers:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:46 PM

I can do this all day, you're the one who said you were wasting time earlier :cheers:

Do what you want:oldlol: maybe it is a waste of time but hey its my time. It's fun clowning someone who knows nothing about basketball. Keep crying:rockon:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:47 PM

Do what you want:oldlol: maybe it is a waste of time but hey its my time. It's fun clowning someone who knows nothing about basketball. Keep crying:rockon:

You ain't clowning me broham. Any legitimacy in your opinion went out the door with Odom>Marion.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 06:50 PM

Ok, so what you're saying is, circumstances may have played a part in his subpar play? Because that's pretty much all I've been saying all this time, not the same scenarios you're raising but the point I've been trying to make is, 2005 is more or less an aberration. When Kobe hit the start of his prime in 2001 until it ended in 2010, none of his seasons were as 'bad' as 2005. It's an aberration, that's all I'm saying.

You cant just excuse it with 'aberration'... its a bad season and theres no excuses for it. Literally the previous year he was just as bad.... :rolleyes:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:50 PM

You ain't clowning me broham. Any legitimacy in your opinion went out the door with Odom>Marion.

Says the guy who believe a player returning from a Feb injury shouldn't be able to play well after coming back from the last 22 games:roll:
Your opinion means squat. You don't understand the first thing about basketball:roll:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:51 PM

You cant just excuse it with 'aberration'... its a bad season and theres no excuses for it. Literally the previous year he was just as bad.... :rolleyes:

Bbut bbbut it's an Abberationeee. He was injure I swear!
:(

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:52 PM

You cant just excuse it with 'aberration'... its a bad season and theres no excuses for it. Literally the previous year he was just as bad.... :rolleyes:

You mean the 2004 season coming off the rap charges when he was going to court by day, then flying to the games by night with the rift between him and Shaq pretty much beyond repair? Yeah, nothing went on that year. :facepalm

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:52 PM

Ok, so what you're saying is, circumstances may have played a part in his subpar play? Because that's pretty much all I've been saying all this time, not the same scenarios you're raising but the point I've been trying to make is, 2005 is more or less an aberration. When Kobe hit the start of his prime in 2001 until it ended in 2010, none of his seasons were as 'bad' as 2005. It's an aberration, that's all I'm saying.

Don't mention 2011 then.
That's an "Abberationeee"

The stupidity knows no ends:roll:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:54 PM

You mean the 2004 season coming off the rap charges when he was going to court by day, then flying to the games by night with the rift between him and Shaq pretty much beyond repair? Yeah, nothing went on that year. :facepalm

He was healthy enough to play.
The arguments and friction with Shaq are well documented by his own coach and he was the one to blame, beginning it with snitching on a teammate.

He wasn't mentally tough enough to compartmentalise and play well :( 43%
And then 38% in the finals:(

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:55 PM

Says the guy who believe a player returning from a Feb injury shouldn't be able to play well after coming back from the last 22 games:roll:
Your opinion means squat. You don't understand the first thing about basketball:roll:

Odom> Marion. Your opinion. Nothing else you say matters at this point. You can keep saying I don't understand basketball for as long as it helps you sleep at night, you offered the most retarded opinion on ISH today. That's saying something.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:56 PM

Don't mention 2011 then.
That's an "Abberationeee"

The stupidity knows no ends:roll:

Don't mention 2006 playoffs when Kobe scored 1 point in game 7. You forget you started the shit to begin with when I was talking to the other guy about Kobe missing the playoffs in his prime. Lebron's got some obvious flaws on his resume, you gonna nitpick Kobe's flaws then it takes all of 2 seconds with rebuke with one of Bron's shortcomings.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:57 PM

Odom> Marion. Your opinion. Nothing else you say matters at this point. You can keep saying I don't understand basketball for as long as it helps you sleep at night, you offered the most retarded opinion on ISH today. That's saying something.

"A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season"
You want the most retarded statement on ISH? It's this:lol
keep crying about how 2005 was an aberration.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 06:58 PM

Don't mention 2006 playoffs when Kobe scored 1 point in game 7. You forget you started the shit to begin with.sure I willl and will keep doing so.

When numbnuts says an entire season is an aberration, I'm gonna say that 1 series (2011 finals) is an aberration.

I'm guessing that's too confusing to someone as intellectually limited as you.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 06:58 PM

You mean the 2004 season coming off the rap charges when he was going to court by day, then flying to the games by night with the rift between him and Shaq pretty much beyond repair? Yeah, nothing went on that year. :facepalm

So what? Managing your mental state and emotions is part of any professional in any sport, dude.... :facepalm

and these are things, while not having to do with sport, he brought on himself, none the less.... like he's not involded in the damn rift with Shaq... your excuse making is horrendous. Let me guess, another aberration? Two in a row?

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 06:59 PM

sure I willl and will keep doing so.

When numbnuts says an entire season is an aberration, I'm gonna say that 1 series (2011 finals) is an aberration.

I'm guessing that's too confusing to someone as intellectually limited as you.

And 2011 will keep coming up, all good on my end. You good? :cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:00 PM

So what? Managing your mental state and emotions is part of any professional in any sport, dude.... :facepalm

and these are things, while not having to do with sport, he brought on himself, none the less.... like he's not involded in the damn rift with Shaq... your excuse making is horrendous. Let me guess, another aberration? Two in a row?

Did I say otherwise? Did I say he was blameless?

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:01 PM

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:02 PM

And 2011 will keep coming up, all good on my end. You good? :cheers:

The heck do I care?
Go ahead and keep saying it till tomorrow.

Lebron is considered a top 2-3 all time for a reason. Kobe 12th for a reason.
If it makes you happy harping about 1 playoff series of 6 games, go ahead:cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:02 PM

"A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season"
You want the most retarded statement on ISH? It's this:lol
keep crying about how 2005 was an aberration.

Nope. Odom> Marion according to Mr. Feekit....er Feeny.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:03 PM

The heck do I care?
Go ahead and keep saying it till tomorrow.

Lebron is considered a top 2-3 all time for a reason. Kobe 12th for a reason.
If it makes you happy harping about 1 playoff series of 6 games, go ahead:cheers:

Go ahead and keep up your BS till next week, next month. All good 'Jordan Boy' :cheers: You care enough to keep replying and wastin' time,doh...

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:03 PM

Nope. Odom> Marion according to Mr. Feekit....er Feeny.

""A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season"

By the guy who's name I don't know and who knows everything about me:(

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:04 PM

Go ahead and keep up your BS till next week, next month. All good 'Jordan Boy' :cheers:

It's great isn't it!
Jordan as 1st all time.

Lebron as 2nd.
Kobe as 12th

:cheers:

Hoopz2332

07-23-2016, 07:04 PM

Kobe's just gonna drop lower and lower as time goes on and more people realize how overrated he was.

facts!

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:05 PM

Did I say otherwise? Did I say he was blameless?

So what is it with you then? You called 2005 an outlier, and he literally played just as bad the previous year... do you have any stance on this? Will you go back to 'muh rape charges' ? Was it the second outlier in a row?

There were plenty of reasons to his bad play, but they dont excuse any of it.... Kobe simply couldnt achieve that consistent year to year brilliance of play like from say '03, throughout a longer stretch.... and thats what seperates him from alot of the top 10 players.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:05 PM

facts!

:bowdown:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:05 PM

""A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season"

By the guy who's name I don't know and who knows everything about me:(

After Odom> Marion, wouldn't want to know anymore about you than I already do, which is thankfully little asides from the transparent Bron-slobbering :cheers:

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:06 PM

After Odom> Marion, wouldn't want to know anymore about you than I already do, which is thankfully little asides from the transparent Bron-slobbering :cheers:after : "A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season" I don't need to know any more about you:( it's all good though:cheers:

Jordan and Lebron as 1 and 2 all time.
Kobe as 12th:applause:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:10 PM

So what is it with you then? You called 2005 an outlier, and he literally played just as bad the previous year... do you have any stance on this? Will you go back to 'muh rape charges' ? Was it the second outlier in a row?

There were plenty of reasons to his bad play, but they dont excuse any of it.... Kobe simply couldnt achieve that consistent year to year brilliance of play like from say '03, throughout a longer stretch.... and thats what seperates him from alot of the top 10 players.

Nothing, really. You may or may not have noticed, but this entire chain of discussion pretty much started because I simply countered a guy who said 'Kobe couldn't make the playoffs in his prime' and I retorted with what I've said about 2005, leading to Feekit...dammit Feeny going on his usual anti-Kobe crusade. I didn't even intend it to go this deep, because frankly I'm not even a Kobe fan, but when you get retarded shit like Odom> Marion, well.....end of the day neither one of them rank above MJ so I'm good. :cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:12 PM

after : "A February injury means a player that returns in March shouldn't be able to play well for the rest of the season" I don't need to know any more about you:( it's all good though:cheers:

Jordan and Lebron as 1 and 2 all time.
Kobe as 12th:applause:

Ain't hurting my feelings,broham. You constantly refreshing the thread salivating for my reply is a bit creepy, though.

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:15 PM

Nothing, really. You may or may not have noticed, but this entire chain of discussion pretty much started because I simply countered a guy who said 'Kobe couldn't make the playoffs in his prime' and I retorted with what I've said about 2005, leading to Feekit...dammit Feeny going on his usual anti-Kobe crusade. I didn't even intend it to go this deep, because frankly I'm not even a Kobe fan, but when you get retarded shit like Odom> Marion, well.....end of the day neither one of them rank above MJ so I'm good. :cheers:

Odom > Marion is now retarded? Considering he was perceived to be better '09-'11 no doubt, and they're like 1.5 yrs off, its not a reach to say Odom was better before that, as well...

6'10 quick, could guard all Forwards, KG-esque.

Created an actual scoring mismatch, could bring up the ball, shoot from the outside, and rebound.. cmon man... dude had the whole package on a lite scale.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:17 PM

Ain't hurting my feelings,broham. You constantly refreshing the thread salivating for my reply is a bit creepy, though.

As long as we both know that Lebron is 2nd all time and Kobe is 12th I'm good:rockon:
:cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:19 PM

Odom > Marion is now retarded? Considering he was perceived to be better '09-'11 no doubt, and they're like 1.5 yrs off, its not a reach to say Odom was better before that, as well...

6'10 quick, could guard all Forwards, KG-esque.

Created an actual scoring mismatch, could bring up the ball, shoot from the outside, and rebound.. cmon man... dude had the whole package on a lite scale.

Jesus Christ, follow the discussion when this BS came up. 2006 Odom> Marion? Because that's what was being discussed. Was he better in 2011 when Marion was a role player? Probably, but then again he did a pretty good job on prime Bron in those finals. :cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:20 PM

As long as we both know that Lebron is 2nd all time and Kobe is 12th I'm good:rockon:
:cheers:

Bron ain't 2nd, ain't passed Kareem for me yet.

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:21 PM

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:22 PM

Bron ain't 2nd, ain't passed Kareem for me yet.

Has for me:rockon:
MJ and lebron chilling at 1 and 2.
Kobrick staying at 12:lol

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:24 PM

Jesus Christ, follow the discussion when this BS came up. 2006 Odom> Marion? Because that's what was being discussed. Was he better in 2011 when Marion was a role player? Probably, but then again he did a pretty good job on prime Bron in those finals. :cheers:

Yea, I guess that was "its not a reach to say Odom was better before that, as well..."

its one thing to lose a discussion, but Im sure you can muster up a better effort here, all it would have taken was for you to open your eyes, n all :lol

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:25 PM

Oops. That was an abberation though, remember?

So Marion was only better in '06, Dragon? ABERRATION DAWG! :lol

Mr Feeny

07-23-2016, 07:26 PM

So Marion was only better in '06, Dragon? ABERRATION DAWG! :lol:lol

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:27 PM

Oops. That was an abberation though, remember?

:applause: :applause: I figured if you talked with me enough your brain activity would improve for the better. Good job bruh, we'll get some good discussion from you yet!

Lebronxrings

07-23-2016, 07:28 PM

Has for me:rockon:
MJ and lebron chilling at 1 and 2.
Kobrick staying at 12:lol
This

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:29 PM

So Marion was only better in '06, Dragon? ABERRATION DAWG! :lol

Nope, more like from 2000 to about 2008. 8 years of aberration :cheers:

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:30 PM

:lol

Never seen Dragon this rattled.. he aint feeling well right now, you got him good :D

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:30 PM

Has for me:rockon:
MJ and lebron chilling at 1 and 2.
Kobrick staying at 12:lol

My boy's firmly at 1, more in stone than Bron at #2. But keep hope alive :cheers:

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:31 PM

Never seen Dragon this rattled.. he aint feeling well right now, you got him good :D

You stealing my shit too Autistic....dammit Arbitrary? Damn auto-correct :cheers:

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:32 PM

You stealing my shit too Autistic....dammi Arbitrary? Damn auto-correct :cheers:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3FBwwRCNTSa52/giphy.gif

Lebronxrings

07-23-2016, 07:33 PM

Dragonyeuw is getting destroyed in this thread.

Dragonyeuw

07-23-2016, 07:36 PM

Dragonyeuw is getting destroyed in this thread.

Oh look, a Bron circle jerk is forming around me.

scuzzy

07-23-2016, 07:38 PM

Arbitrizzy and Feenzy dun bodied like 10 Kobe Fan boys that popped up today

Well done boys. :applause: :bowdown:

warriorfan

07-23-2016, 07:40 PM

cumguzzy the lapdog right on queue

:applause:

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 07:55 PM

Arbitrizzy and Feenzy dun bodied like 10 Kobe Fan boys that popped up today

Well done boys. :applause: :bowdown:

we sizzlin' :rockon:

NBAGOAT

07-23-2016, 08:14 PM

Odom > Marion is now retarded? Considering he was perceived to be better '09-'11 no doubt, and they're like 1.5 yrs off, its not a reach to say Odom was better before that, as well...

6'10 quick, could guard all Forwards, KG-esque.

Created an actual scoring mismatch, could bring up the ball, shoot from the outside, and rebound.. cmon man... dude had the whole package on a lite scale.

marion just fell off around 09 ish so it's not a reach logically but it's wrong. He was better than Odom almost every year up to 08. Was even all star level before Nash got there. You're overselling Odom since he's just so damn inconsistent even with his physical tools. Most of the stuff you listed for Odom besides being a mismatch, Marion could do too and most of them better. Clearly better defensively too so all odom really has is playmaking. Marion's going be a fringe hof candidate

ArbitraryWater

07-23-2016, 08:22 PM

marion just fell off around 09 ish so it's not a reach logically but it's wrong. He was better than Odom almost every year up to 08. Was even all star level before Nash got there. You're overselling Odom since he's just so damn inconsistent even with his physical tools. Most of the stuff you listed for Odom besides being a mismatch, Marion could do too and most of them better. Clearly better defensively too so all odom really has is playmaking. Marion's going be a fringe hof candidate

Ive have never heard this inconsistent stuff as much as for anyone as Odom... ridiculous... it used to be only Kobe stans, now everyone hangs on to it.... inconsistency included, hes averaged the numbers he has in limited minutes. Hes comfortably more talented than Marion. And really unlucky to have never been given an all star nod. Marion doesnt have scoring or playmaking over Odom :confusedshrug:

NBAGOAT

07-23-2016, 08:34 PM

Ive have never heard this inconsistent stuff as much as for anyone as Odom... ridiculous... it used to be only Kobe stans, now everyone hangs on to it.... inconsistency included, hes averaged the numbers he has in limited minutes. Hes comfortably more talented than Marion. And really unlucky to have never been given an all star nod. Marion doesnt have scoring or playmaking over Odom :confusedshrug:

Well I've seen quite a few Odom games. Inconsistency maybe the wrong way to put it but he definitely has quiet games often and his scoring isn't marion's level. Highest he's been is 17ppg while Marion is has 2 21ppg seasons(comparable efficiency too). Odom is more talented and tht's anothe reason the inconsistency stuff is pushed besides the quiet games. His numbers aren't that elite even though his talent is. Marion still has skills over Odom like finishing and offball cutting that make him an underrated scorer and ofc he's clearly better defensively..