All this "traditional big men are obsolete" talk needs to end

[JohnnySic]

If there was a Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Kareem Abdul Jabber in the draft, do you think teams would pass on him because he wouldn't be a fit for small ball and cant step out and shoot 3's? :rolleyes:

[IGOTGAME]

we'll see. Joel Embiid is cut from that same cloth, we'll maybe a step below

[WolfGang]

I think Shaq would go first in any draft from 2010-2016 easily. I can't speak on the other guys, but the big fella's dominance would be too obvious to pass up bro.

[sammichoffate]

It's done, KAT/Davis/Cousins and maybe Okafor are gonna run the league soon

[iamgine]

If there was a Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Kareem Abdul Jabber in the draft, do you think teams would pass on him because he wouldn't be a fit for small ball and cant step out and shoot 3's? :rolleyes:
Teams still draft big men high. What are you talking about?

[Prime_Shaq]

I think Shaq would go first in any draft from 2010-2016 easily. I can't speak on the other guys, but the big fella's dominance would be too obvious to pass up bro.
Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.

[WolfGang]

Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.

...damn, I can't really argue with that. The only draft class I doubt he would go first in is 2003. I don't know if Bron would go second.

[Bankaii]

Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.
Do you not know who was drafted before Jordan?
Shaq would definitely be drafted before him as well.

[TheWinningFam]

In an all time draft the only players you're taking over shaq is Kareem/Lbj :facepalm

[G-train]

If there was a Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Kareem Abdul Jabber in the draft, do you think teams would pass on him because he wouldn't be a fit for small ball and cant step out and shoot 3's? :rolleyes:

Why are there no more players like this?

Because traditional big men are obsolete.

Well to be serious they aren't obsolete, just not as many and not as effective.

NBA is designed for driving and threes now.

So best bigger guys are shot blocker/rebounder/finishers OR they are taught to shoot and put ball on floor rather than post up.

[G-train]

Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.

I'd say depends on era.

I'm big Shaq fan but I'd probably take prime Bird or Kobe over him right now.

They would be unstoppable in current format.

[Sarcastic]

Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.


He would go #1 in the draft that Jordan went in, considering that Olajuwon and Bowie went ahead of him (assuming we don't know how their careers would end up).

Shaq and Kareem were the two most hyped draft prospects in the history of the NBA. No one would ever be chosen ahead of those 2.

[Rizko]

If there was a Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Kareem Abdul Jabber in the draft, do you think teams would pass on him because he wouldn't be a fit for small ball and cant step out and shoot 3's? :rolleyes:
I don't get why people always bring up all-time great big men when they try to argue against "traditional big men are obsolete".

Personally it's a combo of things. Bigs aren't practicing traditional skills as much in there youth, guards aren't learning how to feed the post, play of post players, etc...

Then when they get to the pro's the rules are against the bigs who do try to learn a post move or two by: Allowing fronting in the post, defensive 3 second rules which help open the lanes up, making the drive and kick more efficient then previously which forces the big to go out and defended the p&r out by the three against a smaller and quicker guard as opposed to staying close to the basket like previously and the fact that refs allow way more contact to be used against traditional post up players then really any other play-style.

Obviously if Shaq came out today he'd be the number 1 pick of 2017. Thing is what about say, the Artis Gilmore's of the world? The Mark Eaton's? It's not like literally every team had a Shaq of Kareem on there roster from 1950-2006. There were plenty of middling big men who would end up being essentially obsolete in todays game IMO.

[Bankaii]

I'd say depends on era.

I'm big Shaq fan but I'd probably take prime Bird or Kobe over him right now.

They would be unstoppable in current format.
This entire post is just:facepalm :facepalm

[OnFire]

I think Shaq would go first in any draft from 2010-2016 easily. I can't speak on the other guys, but the big fella's dominance would be too obvious to pass up bro.

All 3 would.

Shaq is obvious because he's a monster..

Im pretty sure a 7'2, 3 time NCAA tournament MVP and champion would go #1 in any draft. Athough in 2016 it would be, 3 time NY HS basketball champion with 71 straight wins, and 1 time ncaa champion...

I think Hakeem would too due to all the hype from his college team with drexler.

[OnFire]

I'd say depends on era.

I'm big Shaq fan but I'd probably take prime Bird or Kobe over him right now.

They would be unstoppable in current format.

How would Shaq be stoppable when some of the best centers are 6'9 or 6'10 and/or weigh under 240lbs? Especially when they ban hackashaq. Shaq would shoot 90% FG% if the warriors tried to put Draymond on him.

[HurricaneKid]

How would Shaq be stoppable when some of the best centers are 6'9 or 6'10 and/or weigh under 240lbs? Especially when they ban hackashaq. Shaq would shoot 90% FG% if the warriors tried to put Draymond on him.

You can not dislodge a defensive player from a set position the way you could back in the day. Shaq would foul out of every game ever. And put him in space in PnRs... Good luck!

Traditional post players ARE obsolete. Post play is an inefficient way to score. Its like ISO offense. It just doesn't work any more.

[WillyJakk]

You can not dislodge a defensive player from a set position the way you could back in the day. Shaq would foul out of every game ever. And put him in space in PnRs... Good luck!

Traditional post players ARE obsolete. Post play is an inefficient way to score. Its like ISO offense. It just doesn't work any more.


And yet the Cavs just won a title with LeBron and Kyrie playing 90's style ISO ball down the stretch and the Warriors were rendered ineffective in their ISO offense once Cleveland's team defense overpowered the Warriors team offense.

Refs would call the game different regardless of rules when there is a once in a generational player such as Shaq.

Shaq would literally just change the game back to " needing a big man".

David Robinson would be EXTREMELY effective in today's NBA. Face-up game, post game, ran the floor, could finish, superior defense, shotblocker, and rebounder.

He literally was built for this modern style, an all time great in the physical era.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'd say depends on era.

I'm big Shaq fan but I'd probably take prime Bird or Kobe over him right now.

They would be unstoppable in current format.

Prime Bird and Kobe in today's era would have far more competition on the perimeter than Shaq would against the current crop of centers. You take the option that gives you the biggest advantage. Look at someone like Cousins, who is offensively dominant in today's game as a big and he's several notches below Shaq.

[SCdac]

But what's the point of having a great big man if his coach is just going to use him as a pawn to set up a three pointer over and over or to just be a finisher in the lane essentially? Teams used to play "inside-out" all the time, Spurs and Duncan did it in his prime (dish it into Tim, let him create), but now it seems like teams want to play outside-in. No doubt the amount of three's teams are taking on average has risen over the last 25 years, but the amount of time in a ball game hasn't. I don't think traditional big men in it of themselves are obsolete, but I think teams are designing their teams differently. Seems like not many bigs get double-teamed by defenders because of their elite offense, defenders stay home on the three point shooters.

[HurricaneKid]

And yet the Cavs just won a title with LeBron and Kyrie playing 90's style ISO ball down the stretch and the Warriors were rendered ineffective in their ISO offense once Cleveland's team defense overpowered the Warriors team offense.

Refs would call the game different regardless of rules when there is a once in a generational player such as Shaq.

Shaq would literally just change the game back to " needing a big man".

David Robinson would be EXTREMELY effective in today's NBA. Face-up game, post game, ran the floor, could finish, superior defense, shotblocker, and rebounder.

He literally was built for this modern style, an all time great in the physical era.

I've said the same thing about the Admiral a number of times. He would be an incredible fit in today's game.

Shaq WOULDN'T. I'm not saying he couldn't play today, I'm just pointing out that several of his primary post moves are very clearly offensive fouls in today's game. And his inability to play defense in space would be a huge ordeal.

The idea that the league would completely alter what it allows... well sure. If you gave 20 points to between the legs dunks, Zach LaVine might become GOAT. It doesn't matter. Based on the way the game is played today, Shaq would be a real problem on the offensive glass and as a beast offensively. But his post moves would require a massive overhaul to work. Which is kind of the point, a lot of the stuff guys used to do to be successful isn't allowed any more.

[Dragonyeuw]

But what's the point of having a great big man if his coach is just going to use him as a pawn to set up a three pointer over and over or to just be a finisher in the lane essentially? Teams used to play "inside-out" all the time, Spurs and Duncan did it in his prime (dish it into Tim, let him create), but now it seems like teams want to play outside-in. No doubt the amount of three's teams are taking on average has risen over the last 25 years, but the amount of time in a ball game hasn't. I don't think traditional big men in it of themselves are obsolete, but I think teams are designing their teams differently. Seems like not many bigs get double-teamed by defenders because of their elite offense, defenders stay home on the three point shooters.

There's no great center asides from Cousins today who can anchor your offense, that's why. You think 2000 Shaq or 95 Hakeem would be used as pawns today? Those teams would have an enormous advantage down low. Having capable 3point shooters around them would amount to an embarrassment of riches. Look at Golden state this year, a team that lived by the 3 the entire year, and fooled everyone into thinking that it would carry through all the way to the title. What happened when the 3 wasn't falling for them? What happened to Curry's game when the 30ft 3pointers stopped falling?

[Dragonyeuw]

I've said the same thing about the Admiral a number of times. He would be an incredible fit in today's game.

Shaq WOULDN'T. I'm not saying he couldn't play today, I'm just pointing out that several of his primary post moves are very clearly offensive fouls in today's game.

That goes both ways. Guys hacked the living shit out of Shaq back then, and part of his brute force was to counteract the way guys used to hang all over him. He was much more nimble offensively than given credit for. A considerably inferior version of Shaq existed just 5 years ago, Dwight Howard. And a good portion of his game was brute force, but he didn't have nearly the number of offensive moves or touch around the basket, which is why relatively he sucks now once his lost his athletic edge.

[HurricaneKid]

That goes both ways. Guys hacked the living shit out of Shaq back then, and part of his brute force was to counteract the way guys used to hang all over him. He was much more nimble offensively than given credit for. A considerably inferior version of Shaq existed just 5 years ago, Dwight Howard. And a good portion of his game was brute force, but he didn't have nearly the number of offensive moves or touch around the basket, which is why relatively he sucks now once his lost his athletic edge.

It doesn't go both ways. Shaq has very publicly discussed "kissing" with his high elbows. Those are flagrants now. He used to use his shoulders as battering rams and move defenders back 5 feet by going right through them. Defenders were completely unable to do anything about it so they mauled him. Make it so Shaq can't go through guys and force him to show on PnRs and he is a completely different player.

The modern game really got started in 2011 when Carlisle updated a lot of Thibbs' defensive principles and won a Championship. Since then, Dwight, et al have been all but worthless.

People keep bringing up Cousins, etc. Cousins CAREER TS% is .526. That's below league avg over that time. Cs just aren't as efficient as they used to be. And the farther down the defensive rabbit hole we go the less value Cs have. Brut force just doesn't have the value it once did. Quickness has more value than it used to.

[Dragonyeuw]

It doesn't go both ways. Shaq has very publicly discussed "kissing" with his high elbows. Those are flagrants now. He used to use his shoulders as battering rams and move defenders back 5 feet by going right through them. Defenders were completely unable to do anything about it so they mauled him. Make it so Shaq can't go through guys and force him to show on PnRs and he is a completely different player.



And you think he wouldn't have the intelligence to adjust his game? Shaq had natural advantages that are going to give him the edge 9/10 times, high elbows or otherwise. Howard used his elbows to great effect 5 years ago and put up 22/13. Shaq was a more skilled offensive talent.

[Clifton]

Agreed.

I won't bet the company car on the Warriors until they get someone like Bogut at center. 3s are nice, but an open dunk goes in every time, and that was what Bogut's size and intelligence brought. That consistency was lacking in the Finals.

Also paint protection is still important. If your tallest player is 6'7, that means Lebron is getting 5 dunks a game on you, and that means his jumper is going to start to fall as well. This is how Lebron teams have always generated momentum.

Bogut out cost the Warriors the title in my opinion.

[SCdac]

It's not just Bogut either. It's the defense of Tyson Chandler in 2011, Duncan + Splitter combo in 2014, Chris Anderson's shot blocking on the Heat, etc. The "traditional" shot blocking big man will probably never go away because 7 footers in the league tend to make it on that and rebounding alone. DeAndre Jordan is getting paid big time because he can blocks shots, rebound, and finish alley oops. That's about it from him. But a Hakeem, Duncan, etc., type scorer? One who has a high usage-% and leads a team to championships scoring mostly in the paint? That's different than a Bogut or Tyson Chandler. It's hard to envision another top-10 or top-20 big man in the current crop of bigs, given the rise of Curry, Durant, Harden, Irving, Lillard, Wall, etc. I hope Anthony Davis or Towns can make big strides but who knows

[tpols]

It doesn't go both ways. Shaq has very publicly discussed "kissing" with his high elbows. Those are flagrants now. .

and especially with today's retroactive post game, microscoped officiating and reprimanding .. he'd have a lot of trouble with the flagrant point system in the playoffs.


Agreed.

I won't bet the company car on the Warriors until they get someone like Bogut at center. 3s are nice, but an open dunk goes in every time, and that was what Bogut's size and intelligence brought. That consistency was lacking in the Finals.

Also paint protection is still important. If your tallest player is 6'7, that means Lebron is getting 5 dunks a game on you, and that means his jumper is going to start to fall as well. This is how Lebron teams have always generated momentum.

Bogut out cost the Warriors the title in my opinion.

bingo .. summarized what I've been saying better than i said it. it's like waving a red flag at a bull.

[WolfGang]

Shaq would average like 33-36 points in today's league. Just give him the ball and let him work. Literally no one would stop him. He doesn't need to foul these scrubs.

[SecondTake]

Shaq would go first in any draft that Jordan isn't in.

Jordan didnt even go first in his own draft class....So no, Shaq would go first in any class period.

[SecondTake]

In an all time draft the only players you're taking over shaq is Kareem/Lbj :facepalm

LBJ? He's not nearly as dominant as 3peat shaq.

[HurricaneKid]

And you think he wouldn't have the intelligence to adjust his game? Shaq had natural advantages that are going to give him the edge 9/10 times, high elbows or otherwise. Howard used his elbows to great effect 5 years ago and put up 22/13. Shaq was a more skilled offensive talent.

NOT ONE PLAYER IN BASKETBALL CAN DO WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. Just "adjust" his game? His game is being bigger and stronger than anyone. That doesn't mean **** any more. You cannot go through people. That's what he did. You think he is going to get his 380 pounds around and in between multiple defenders? GTFO.

[Dragonyeuw]

NOT ONE PLAYER IN BASKETBALL CAN DO WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. Just "adjust" his game? His game is being bigger and stronger than anyone. That doesn't mean **** any more. You cannot go through people. That's what he did. You think he is going to get his 380 pounds around and in between multiple defenders? GTFO.

Not one player in basketball can do what? Adjust? Just about every elite player has had to adjust their game at some point, aging, injuries, whatever the case may be. Shaq had more skill than you give him credit for. Guess what, Stanley Roberts was 7'0 and 300 pounds. Why wasn't he better than everyone else too since he was bigger and probably stronger. That's basically your logic.