View Full Version : Reminder Kobe beat prime Duncan 4-1 in 2008
Kobe- 29.2 PPG on 59 TS%
Gasol- 13.2 PPG on 47 TS%
Odom- 12.8 PPG on 48 TS%
Duncan- 22.4 PPG on 47 TS%
Parker- 19.4 PPG on 52 TS%
Ginobili- 12.6 PPG on 53 TS%
Duncan had more help too!
SouBeachTalents
07-28-2016, 01:58 PM
Kobe was a beast every WCF from '08-'10
ZMonkey11
07-28-2016, 02:06 PM
Cool story. Still take Duncan over Kobe.
ImKobe
07-28-2016, 02:07 PM
It`s not just about how efficient his numbers were, look at how effortlessly he got past manu and how many times he finished over duncan, especially in game 5 of that series, so fluid with his post moves, he looked unstoppable in that series.
Nilocon165
07-28-2016, 02:10 PM
One of the more impressive series in his career IMO.
Bring up series like these instead of "FIVE RANGZZZZZ" and Kobe stans would actually be taken seriously.
Rocketswin2013
07-28-2016, 02:23 PM
prime Duncan
2008
k.
Smoke117
07-28-2016, 02:25 PM
PRIME Duncan? Right. Kobe stans desperate to find anything now to try and get Kobe in the top 10...it's over, let it go. He's going to fall further and further as the years go by. He probably won't even be a consensus top 20 player of all time in 15 years.
ImKobe
07-28-2016, 02:32 PM
PRIME Duncan? Right. Kobe stans desperate to find anything now to try and get Kobe in the top 10...it's over, let it go. He's going to fall further and further as the years go by. He probably won't even be a consensus top 20 player of all time in 15 years.
Yall say prime kobe when you mention 2011-13, he was same age then... its safe to say duncan was still in his prime years, being a 20/10 player and the best pf in the game, defending champs, having his minutes reduced since 04, no serious injuries.
PRIME Duncan? Right. Kobe stans desperate to find anything now to try and get Kobe in the top 10...it's over, let it go. He's going to fall further and further as the years go by. He probably won't even be a consensus top 20 player of all time in 15 years.
31 is still prime. Bran was 31 this year. There is a difference between prime and absolute peak.
Smoke117
07-28-2016, 02:52 PM
31 is still prime. Bran was 31 this year. There is a difference between prime and absolute peak.
You don't just define a players prime by his age...Duncan was clearly out of his prime by 2008.
scuzzy
07-28-2016, 02:59 PM
31 is still prime. Bran was 31 this year. There is a difference between prime and absolute peak.
Prime: 09-2013
Pinnacle: 2012-2013
Absolute Peak: Celtics GM 7
Appex: GM 7, 4th quarter
stalkerforlife
07-28-2016, 03:35 PM
Kobe- 29.2 PPG on 59 TS%
Gasol- 13.2 PPG on 47 TS%
Odom- 12.8 PPG on 48 TS%
Duncan- 22.4 PPG on 47 TS%
Parker- 19.4 PPG on 52 TS%
Ginobili- 12.6 PPG on 53 TS%
Duncan had more help too!
:biggums:
Get the man some damn help.
WOW.
34-24 Footwork
07-28-2016, 03:54 PM
One of the more impressive series in his career IMO.
Bring up series like these instead of "FIVE RANGZZZZZ" and Kobe stans would actually be taken seriously.
Most Bron stans started watching basketball in 2010.
So all you know is 2010-retirement Kobe.
Even though most of the teams he's beaten in the western conference are better than the teams he's beaten in the finals, those series don't count.
Lol.
You don't just define a players prime by his age...Duncan was clearly out of his prime by 2008.
19 and 11 on 55 TS% is prime level play. Not peak play but still elite just like Bran last season.
:biggums:
Get the man some damn help.
WOW.
Yeah Parker and Ginobili outplayed Gasol and Odom. Kobe was the main reason why the Lakers won.
Uchmanmamba24
07-28-2016, 04:33 PM
PRIME Duncan? Right. Kobe stans desperate to find anything now to try and get Kobe in the top 10...it's over, let it go. He's going to fall further and further as the years go by. He probably won't even be a consensus top 20 player of all time in 15 years.
STFU drunkard! what are you? a Heat fan or a Kobe hater?
Kobe haters like to pretend that this series didn't happen. :oldlol:
Lebronxrings
07-29-2016, 12:35 AM
Reminder you are a terrible poster that should have been banned long ago
Spurs m8
07-29-2016, 01:16 AM
That's cool.
Why do Kobe stans feel the need to always compare the 2?
Duncan fans not insecure, happy knowing he's above that glorified chucker and poor mans Kawhi.
That's cool.
Why do Kobe stans feel the need to always compare the 2?
Duncan fans not insecure, happy knowing he's above that glorified chucker and poor mans Kawhi.
Duncan is a poor man's Horace Grant if Kobe is a poor man's Kawhi. :oldlol:
Reminder you are a terrible poster that should have been banned long ago
You're just shook because Bran lost 4-0 to the same team in the 2007 Finals. :oldlol:
NBASTATMAN
07-29-2016, 10:47 AM
Kobe- 29.2 PPG on 59 TS%
Gasol- 13.2 PPG on 47 TS%
Odom- 12.8 PPG on 48 TS%
Duncan- 22.4 PPG on 47 TS%
Parker- 19.4 PPG on 52 TS%
Ginobili- 12.6 PPG on 53 TS%
Duncan had more help too!
THAN HE WET THE BED VS THE CELTICS... A TEAM THAT BARELY BEAT THE HAWKS... BTW that SPURS team was playing with GINOBOLI INJURED and they had no KAWHI a true star wing man...
THAN HE WET THE BED VS THE CELTICS... A TEAM THAT BARELY BEAT THE HAWKS... BTW that SPURS team was playing with GINOBOLI INJURED and they had no KAWHI a true star wing man...
Injured Ginobili still played. Ginobili- 12.6 PPG on 53 TS%. Better than Bynum not playing a single minute in the 2008 playoffs.
keep-itreal
07-29-2016, 11:03 AM
They had Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner go up against Paul Gasol and Andrew Bynum.
Brilliant coaching Popovich :roll: :roll: :roll:
They had Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner go up against Paul Gasol and Andrew Bynum.
Brilliant coaching Popovich :roll: :roll: :roll:
Bynum didn't play in the 2008 playoffs.
hiphopfan777
07-29-2016, 11:11 AM
Kobe Bryant beat that queer all the time in playoffs. In 2013 achilles and 2003 Kobe Bryant hurt hid shoulder and was just tired from three peating.
Lebronxrings
07-29-2016, 11:53 AM
OP is IllegalD aka knicksman
Prime_Shaq
07-29-2016, 12:03 PM
They had Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner go up against Paul Gasol and Andrew Bynum.
Brilliant coaching Popovich :roll: :roll: :roll:
Bynum didn't play and Blair wasn't even drafted yet
brownmamba00
07-29-2016, 12:12 PM
Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol played terrific defense on Tim Duncan this series...Kobe handled the facilitating and scoring 29ppg +50%fg.
Duncan shot just 42% from the field and had an absymal 59% Free throw Percentage just 26 from 44 which wouldn't be expected of a high skill player like Tim Duncan.
still had like 22/17
Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol played terrific defense on Tim Duncan this series...Kobe handled the facilitating and scoring 29ppg +50%fg.
Duncan shot just 42% from the field and had an absymal 59% Free throw Percentage just 26 from 44 which wouldn't be expected of a high skill player like Tim Duncan.
still had like 22/17
Pau and Odom aren't exactly stud defenders though. Kobe had to go against Bruce Bowen and he lit him up. Basically this series came down to Kobe being better than Duncan.
brownmamba00
07-29-2016, 12:56 PM
Pau and Odom aren't exactly stud defenders though. Kobe had to go against Bruce Bowen and he lit him up. Basically this series came down to Kobe being better than Duncan.
yeah kobe outplayed duncan easily most of his career
yeah kobe outplayed duncan easily most of his career
Yeah but simpletons will use the he had Shaq argument. 2001 Lakers swept the Spurs 4-0. Kobe put up 33, 7, and 7 on 57 TS%. Shaq 27 and 13 on 55 TS%. Duncan 23 and 12 on 54 TS%.
Bump. Kobe beat Duncan despite having less help from his supporting cast.
34-24 Footwork
09-05-2016, 04:09 PM
Bump. Kobe beat Duncan despite having less help from his supporting cast.
I dont undertsand, bro. Lately I've been told that the better team wins EVERYTIME. If Manu and Parker outplayed Odom and Gasol, then it's safe to say that sometimes the BEST players can impact a series enough to change the premeditated outcome.
And wow. Gasol and Odom got showed up by an older Parker and Manu. Kobe needed more help.
Annyong!
09-05-2016, 04:23 PM
Prime Duncan was 2003, not 2008.
Prime Duncan was 2003, not 2008.
2003 was his peak. He was 31 in 2008 and he was still a top 5 player in his prime. Bran was 31 last season and he was still a top 5 player in his prime even though he was no longer at his peak.
Big164
09-05-2016, 04:31 PM
Yeah Parker and Ginobili outplayed Gasol and Odom. Kobe was the main reason why the Lakers won.
Spurs had all those weapons on the perimeter (Bowen, Parker, Ginobli) and had the best PF ever protecting the rim and Kobe torched them all!!!
Kobe 18-12 vs Spurs
Lebron 5-11 vs spurs
NBASTATMAN
09-05-2016, 05:03 PM
Kobe- 29.2 PPG on 59 TS%
Gasol- 13.2 PPG on 47 TS%
Odom- 12.8 PPG on 48 TS%
Duncan- 22.4 PPG on 47 TS%
Parker- 19.4 PPG on 52 TS%
Ginobili- 12.6 PPG on 53 TS%
Duncan had more help too!
MANU WAS PLAYING HURT and they didnt start winning till they got Leonard on their team.. Still than he got spanked by PPierce on one leg.. People forget that Boston team almost lost to the HAWKS... :roll:
MANU WAS PLAYING HURT and they didnt start winning till they got Leonard on their team.. Still than he got spanked by PPierce on one leg.. People forget that Boston team almost lost to the HAWKS... :roll:
injured Manu was still more efficient than Gasol and Odom. Manu easily outplayed Odom.
aj1987
09-05-2016, 05:51 PM
injured Manu was still more efficient than Gasol and Odom. Manu easily outplayed Odom.
So, Duncan got held to 47% TS and the Lakers, over the course of 5 games, out rebounded the Spurs? Seems like the Lakers' FC put in work.
Not gonna lie. Kobe was a beast though. I remember him being clutch AF in the 4th Q's.
Duncan is a poor man's Horace Grant if Kobe is a poor man's Kawhi. :oldlol:
I think he means that Kobe is the glorified chucker and Lebron is the poor man's Kawhi.
retaxis
09-05-2016, 06:09 PM
Greatest coach of all time helps a lot! Kobe was never the leader of the team when they won which is pretty sad because Shaq was leader first 3 rings and Phil was leading that crew the last 2 rings. Pau/Odom/Bynum were also by far the best frontcourt in the NBA as well when they won.
Chokefree
09-05-2016, 06:37 PM
Kobe haterz vanish with threads like these......lol
Greatest coach of all time helps a lot! Kobe was never the leader of the team when they won which is pretty sad because Shaq was leader first 3 rings and Phil was leading that crew the last 2 rings. Pau/Odom/Bynum were also by far the best frontcourt in the NBA as well when they won.
Bynum was injured in 2009 and 2010. He was merely a role player like Luc Longley.
34-24 Footwork
09-05-2016, 06:47 PM
Greatest coach of all time helps a lot! Kobe was never the leader of the team when they won which is pretty sad because Shaq was leader first 3 rings and Phil was leading that crew the last 2 rings. Pau/Odom/Bynum were also by far the best frontcourt in the NBA as well when they won.
Nothing about this post is REMOTELY true other than Phil arguably being the best coach of all time.
Everything else is pure bullshit, unfortunately l.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
09-05-2016, 06:48 PM
I remember Kobe going absolute HAM in this series, adding to his "Spurs Killer" moniker.
Guy made Bowen and Gino look invisible on defense and went in complete takeover mode when he needed to. This series along with his '09 Denver and '10 Phoenix series' were his best post Shaq, IMO.
Big164
09-05-2016, 06:52 PM
Ya know, I'd give Spurs Head coach advantage as well!
Phil hasn't done any actual "coaching" since the 90s
riseagainst
09-06-2016, 02:08 PM
too bad he got blown out by 39 in the finals.
:(
SamuraiSWISH
09-06-2016, 02:14 PM
I remember Kobe going absolute HAM in this series, adding to his "Spurs Killer" moniker.
Guy made Bowen and Gino look invisible on defense and went in complete takeover mode when he needed to. This series along with his '09 Denver and '10 Phoenix series' were his best post Shaq, IMO.
:applause:
Kobe routinely for his whole career Fabered the Spurs and Duncan. I agree with those series being his best post Shaq.
Also would throw in 2009 Finals vs Magic, and even though it was the first round ... his series vs the loaded 2008 50 plus win Nuggets (WC version of 1st round opponent) featuring 2x 25 - 28 ppg players in Iverson and Melo.
Kobe absolutely torched both Kenyon Martin and a loose lips JR Smith.
NBASTATMAN
09-06-2016, 02:25 PM
injured Manu was still more efficient than Gasol and Odom. Manu easily outplayed Odom.
KOBE STANS ARE DUMBER THAN DIRT
Manu shot 36 pct for the series.. Lamar shot 40 percent, TS percentages take into effect free throw shooting which Manu shot 100 percent from.. Lamar avg 13 pts ,10 and 3 assists while Manu avg 13 pts 3reb and 3 assists. Manu couldnt play defense cuz he was hurt as well. Manu was so hurt that SASHA killed him in that series... :lol
Either way Kobe wet the bed in the FINALS:roll:
GAME OVER :rockon:
ImKobe
09-06-2016, 05:12 PM
KOBE STANS ARE DUMBER THAN DIRT
Manu shot 36 pct for the series.. Lamar shot 40 percent, TS percentages take into effect free throw shooting which Manu shot 100 percent from.. Lamar avg 13 pts ,10 and 3 assists while Manu avg 13 pts 3reb and 3 assists. Manu couldnt play defense cuz he was hurt as well. Manu was so hurt that SASHA killed him in that series... :lol
Either way Kobe wet the bed in the FINALS:roll:
GAME OVER :rockon:
Kobe didn't wet the bed...Lakers just happened to face a better team that also had HCA, should have went 7 games but Boston started making 3s out of nowhere and they did have the GOAT defense and 3 all-stars + Rondo while the Lakers only had 1 all-star in Kobe + Bynum and Ariza were injured, who were two of the top 5 Lakers in their 2009 championship run.
Boston in 08 was on the level of 04 Pistons defensively, Kobe averaged 26/5/5/3 in the Finals, how is that wetting the bed? Those are on par with '96 MJ numbers vs Sonics.
Lakers were undermanned, Gasol struggled against KG in that series and Boston shot 43% from 3 over the course of 6 games, Boston had 3 guys averaging 18+ points a game while Kobe got 14.7 ppg out of Gasol followed by 13.5 ppg by Odom, not exactly much help there. Kobe led the Finals in points and steals :confusedshrug:
As for the 08 Spurs, they were the defending champs and Duncan was still a 20/10 player in his late prime, as his minutes were restricted since 04 so he was definitely still on that level. Role players had nothing to do with the Lakers winning the series anyways, it was purely Kobe dominating them and them having no answer for it, I believe Game 1 and Game 5 lakers were losing both games until they just said f'ck it let's give it to KB and he delivered.
I remember Kobe going absolute HAM in this series, adding to his "Spurs Killer" moniker.
Guy made Bowen and Gino look invisible on defense and went in complete takeover mode when he needed to. This series along with his '09 Denver and '10 Phoenix series' were his best post Shaq, IMO.
You do know that Bowen was 37 in 2008, and Manu had surgery that summer for his injured ankle.
The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent.
http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3559440
Hey Yo
09-06-2016, 05:42 PM
You do know that Bowen was 37 in 2008, and Manu had surgery that summer for his injured ankle.
The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent.
http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3559440
OP ruined
Some just can't get over that Duncan had a greater career than Kobe and that (if winning is the goal - not selling jerseys) almost every GM would pick Duncan to start their franchise over Kobe.
OP ruined
Duncan was 100% healthy and Parker still outplayed Gasol. :confusedshrug:
TommyGriffin
09-06-2016, 06:00 PM
You do know that Bowen was 37 in 2008, and Manu had surgery that summer for his injured ankle.
The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent.
http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3559440
It's June, nobody is 100% by that time of year.
It's June, nobody is 100% by that time of year.
:oldlol: They don't want accept the Curry injury excuse but want to give Duncan a free pass because his 3rd option wasn't 100% healthy. Parker outplayed Gasol. Odom slightly outplayed Ginobili. Kobe outplayed Duncan.
Some just can't get over that Duncan had a greater career than Kobe and that (if winning is the goal - not selling jerseys) almost every GM would pick Duncan to start their franchise over Kobe.
Lakers vs Spurs 2001 playoffs. Lakers win 4-0.
Kobe: 33.3 PPG, 7.0 RPG, and 7.0 APG on 57 TS%
Duncan: 23 PPG, 12.3 RPG, and 4.3 APG on 54 TS%
Kobe rapes Duncan again!
Duncan was 100% healthy and Parker still outplayed Gasol. :confusedshrug:
Manu (19.5 pts compared to Duncan's 19.3) was actually the Spurs' leading scorer in 2007-08 regular season but Duncan played more games. But in the playoffs, Manu's scoring went down while Parker's and Duncan's went up. Still, Spurs aren't gonna win it all with 1 of their big 3 injured. After that, it's just a bunch of old veterans (Bowen, Finley, Kurt Thomas, Barry, Oberto, Horry).
Spurs' mistake after winning in 2007 was standing pat with their veterans and not getting younger/improving - not being able to foresee major changes in the league like KG/Pierce/Allen in BOS, Gasol going to LAL, etc. They should have been heavily searching through the draft for the next Kawhi back in 2007 instead of waiting until 2011 - all those wasted years with RJ.
It's June, nobody is 100% by that time of year.
But not everybody has SURGERY to repair what ails them - it was not some minor thing that rest would cure.
Manu (19.5 pts compared to Duncan's 19.3) was actually the Spurs' leading scorer in 2007-08 regular season but Duncan played more games. But in the playoffs, Manu's scoring went down while Parker's and Duncan's went up. Still, Spurs aren't gonna win it all with 1 of their big 3 injured. After that, it's just a bunch of old veterans (Bowen, Finley, Kurt Thomas, Barry, Oberto, Horry).
Spurs' mistake after winning in 2007 was standing pat with their veterans and not getting younger/improving - not being able to foresee major changes in the league like KG/Pierce/Allen in BOS, Gasol going to LAL, etc. They should have been heavily searching through the draft for the next Kawhi back in 2007 instead of waiting until 2011 - all those wasted years with RJ.
Kobe outplaying Duncan was the difference since Parker outplayed Gasol and Odom outplayed Manu.
:oldlol: They don't want accept the Curry injury excuse but want to give Duncan a free pass because his 3rd option wasn't 100% healthy. Parker outplayed Gasol. Odom slightly outplayed Ginobili. Kobe outplayed Duncan.
Manu was the Spurs' leading scorer that year.
But not everybody has SURGERY to repair what ails them - it was not some minor thing that rest would cure.
Bynum didn't even play in the 2008 playoffs. The Lakers were 1st seed with a healthy Bynum BEFORE the Gasol trade.
Hey Yo
09-06-2016, 06:21 PM
Manu was the Spurs' leading scorer that year.
The ruination of the OP continues.
Manu was the Spurs' leading scorer that year.
Duncan was a top 5 NBA player that season. It doesn't matter who scored the most in the regular season. Duncan got enough help from Parker. Kobe just outplayed him.
Kobe outplaying Duncan was the difference since Parker outplayed Gasol and Odom outplayed Manu.
:confusedshrug: You see basketball as xxx outplaying xxx. Basketball is a team sport and ESPECIALLY so for the Spurs. Back then, the big 3 set up the rest of the team either by pick n roll/pop, penetration and pass for the 3. If 1 of their big 3 is injured, they are not gonna win.
And Duncan's 20.2 pts 14.5 rebs 3.3 asst 2.1 blks in the playoffs was fine but was not gonna overcome a Manu injury.
Duncan was a top 5 NBA player that season. It doesn't matter who scored the most in the regular season. Duncan got enough help from Parker. Kobe just outplayed him.
Funny how on one hand Duncan was a top 5 NBA player in 2008 but on the other hand (when it suits them or is convenient), some swear that Spurs have been Parker's team since 2007.
IllegalD
09-06-2016, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE]Bill Simmons (June, 2008):
[I][B]
Dray n Klay
09-06-2016, 07:09 PM
IllegalD don't you have some fish to sell??
:lol :dancin :hammertime: :hammertime:
tpols
09-06-2016, 07:38 PM
ive noticed that tim duncans image has changed over the past few years ... lots of people used to have him over Kobe and would confidently proclaim it.. especially as Kobe's career spiraled downwards in the waning years while TD was still competing. It seems the dust has finally settled and people see it is close. I personally have Duncan ahead due to my way of ranking and quantifying runs, but it is nice to see the arrogance of spurs fans fade a bit.
ive noticed that tim duncans image has changed over the past few years ... lots of people used to have him over Kobe and would confidently proclaim it.. especially as Kobe's career spiraled downwards in the waning years while TD was still competing. It seems the dust has finally settled and people see it is close. I personally have Duncan ahead due to my way of ranking and quantifying runs, but it is nice to see the arrogance of spurs fans fade a bit.
That's ironic coming from a Laker fan. I'd say that the majority of push back from Spurs fan is in response to these inane threads started by Kobe stans. How many threads do you see started by Spurs fan comparing Kobe and TD? If you do see some, it's usually a - I miss him/appreciation kinda thread. I feel no compulsion to cherry-pick series where Duncan performed well and lord it over Kobe fans. I know who most would pick FIRST if given a choice.
tpols
09-06-2016, 08:11 PM
That's ironic coming from a Laker fan. I'd say that the majority of push back from Spurs fan is in response to these inane threads started by Kobe stans. How many threads do you see started by Spurs fan comparing Kobe and TD? If you do see some, it's usually a - I miss him/appreciation kinda thread. I feel no compulsion to cherry-pick series where Duncan performed well and lord it over Kobe fans. I know who most would pick FIRST if given a choice.
you guys used to act like tim duncan was head and shoulders better career wise though.. especially circa the dwight era .. yea kobe had his problems in old age, but prime for prime he won just as much and has a 20 year career full dominant impact ... I used to get laughed at for saying kevin garnett and tim duncan are clones talent wise, now people consider that reasonable.
you guys used to act like tim duncan was head and shoulders better career wise though.. especially circa the dwight era .. yea kobe had his problems in old age, but prime for prime he won just as much and has a 20 year career full dominant impact ... I used to get laughed at for saying kevin garnett and tim duncan are clones talent wise, now people consider that reasonable.
I have no problem with comparisons with KG, Kobe, etc TALENT-WISE. But I do think what made Duncan special was the intangibles - those were borne out over 19 years and was seen in the response to his retirement.
tpols
09-06-2016, 08:40 PM
I have no problem with comparisons with KG, Kobe, etc TALENT-WISE. But I do think what made Duncan special was the intangibles - those were borne out over 19 years and was seen in the response to his retirement.
you can hate on kobe for intangibles to an extent, but what did Garnett lack there .. ? hes one of the best communicators and team players ever.
you can hate on kobe for intangibles to an extent, but what did Garnett lack there .. ? hes one of the best communicators and team players ever.
As far as intangibles, Kobe would be bottom of the ladder, KG in the middle and TD at the top. I don't knock KG's communication (especially on defense) and team play - although sometimes I thought that he shied away from the clutch moments - didn't take charge enough/leadership - deferred too much - all in the name of team play.
But I also include growth/development of younger players, others reaching their potential, sacrificing ego and money for the good of the team, etc. in intangibles. I think that whatever stage of his career, TD provided the Spurs whatever it was that they needed - at the beginning (when the teams were weak), he carried them - in the middle, he allowed Manu and Parker to develop and eventually take equal leadership - at the end, he took a back seat - saw Leonard develop and LMA integrate/take the reins.
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