Checkmate Atheists!

[TommyGriffin]

Fwiw, Hawkings proved something could be created from nothing already. With that and the Higgs Boson I just don't get how we have to have conversations like this any more.
Steven Hawking can blow it out of his handicapped ass.

[Micku]

Steven Hawking can blow it out of his handicapped ass.

What do you have against Steven Hawking? Dude is swag as hell and smart.

And you can argue nothing doesn't exist either. Physicists don't even know if there is such thing as nothing. There is probably no such thing as pure nothing in our universe. Maybe outside of it, but then they would be part of our universe since we are constantly expanding.

[Micku]

It doesn't matter if a toddler or John Nash answered if 2 + 2 = 4.
Likewise, it's understood that it all began with God; from the truthful account of billions of people; be they Hindu, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Sabian, of differing intellectual levels; be they child or fully fledged old scholars.


It's interesting that you mentioned that. With all the different religions out there, they all have their own subjective experience due to what religion they are. But they all contradict each other, thus a couple or all of them are wrong. Such as Christian believe Jesus is the messiah and god (some Christians don't believe he is god), Muslims don't believe in that, Jews don't believe in that, Hindus would say yeah but he is one of many that makes up one god in the end.

Yet mathematics is universal. Mathematics is a language for us to compute and translate objects of our universe. You can change in how you say 1, but it'll still be 1. It's different from actually speaking a language such as english in which no words would have meaning in other languages.

You can say it all begin with god yet the many religions that rise and fell. All of them were man created, but I guess you'll never know for sure. If those gods were invented by man, why not the major religions of today which all came later into our history? All of them have some questionable scriptures that may or may not happen. All of them claim events happen. Like Muhammad spiting the moon (much debate on this) and Jesus walking on water.

We don't talk about Vespasian doing some supernatural crap even though he has witness I think. Caesar Augustus called himself the son of god and I think it was written on coins. I think he is credited for one event that ppl thought he was divine being or something. Alexander the Great called himself the son of Zeus and a bunch of supernatural stuff happen at his birth.

And then you have the Buddhist miracle I think in Korea with Ichadon. Ichadon said that once he gets executed something crazy would happen that will convince ppl of Buddhism. And once he did get executed, the earth shook, the sun darkened, flowers rained from the sky, and his head flew to the Geumgang mountains. W..t..f? But that's how Korea believed in Buddhism.

And Sathya Sai Baba recently. Thousands of ppl saw his miracles in action. It is said that he performed levitation, made physical object disppear, make them appear on demand, healing diseases, multiplying food, and changing water into gasoline and many more. He claimed to be the reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi. This is in conflict with a few of religions belief system. Sathya Sai Baba also had false predictions too tho. He said he was going to remain healthy until 96. He died when he was 84. And believers would say he probably meant to "lunar years" counted by telugu hindus than our solar years.

Since it conflicts with some religions, they would have to be BS. But what if the major religions are BS? What if it's all BS?

This is all subjective in every form. But y'know what that is staying consistent? Math. I don't think it begun with god because the universe don't really care about numbers. There is no real such thing as a physical number, but it's a translation for us to understand amount of a quantity in something. But I suppose it depends upon if god exist or not and whatever he is being that knows how to solve the Beal conjecture.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

All of them conflict with each other.

Ppl believe in shit that's not real.

No. Not all of them conflict with each other.

Just because it is not visible or measurable does not mean it isn't real.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Micku.

Thank you for speaking of those miracles and addressing Mathematics.

A day prior to reading this post, my How To Think Like A Mathematician and How to Prove It book came in. Coincidence? :D

What the Sathya Baba did and what was witnessed is not in conflict with religions. Prophets and Saints can do miracles, but it is actually Allah performing it through them.

Jews and Muslims believe that God is One. A portion of Christians do. Hindus also believe in a Supreme Deity (although they have avatars) This is evidenced by the fact that the entire Universe is calibrated in a way that can only be done without conflicting wills. Something as fragile as a human being, who is dependent upon such restrictive parameters; ranging from temperature, to oxygen level, to blood pH, is upon Earth, has been created, nourished, and endured decades of existence many tens of billions of times over. That all living things share something in common, but are unique. And hundreds of others.

In regards to subjectivity.

A building can't even be built without some objectivity, let alone a civilization. Yet there were plenty before us.
BS would be a misplaced brick, no?


People aren't even going to stop fighting each other without some universal moral establishment.
People can't even acquire peace if they live a lie, their very conscience would reject things. Yet millions before us have had peace.
People can't even continue the acquisition of knowledge without some consensus.

[Micku]

No. Not all of them conflict with each other.

Just because it is not visible or measurable does not mean it isn't real.

Thanks for your reply!

You're right that not all religions do conflict with each other. I was generalizing so that was my mistake.

And you are right that just because something isn't visible or measurable by current technology and understanding of our universe. We don't know that much about dark matter and why it doesn't interact with electromagnetic spectrum, but it's probably there due to gravity.

With God, we have no idea. No indication that reflects this. Maybe if you talk about cosmology in how did we get here, but even then we don't know. It's just guest work.

And we know some shit isn't real like Apollo. There is no charlot that move the Sun across the sky. There is some Native American religion that some dude had sex with his dog after a major flood, and they breed a god or new race or something? And don't forget about the Norse gods. Sacrifices used to made for Aegir so he wouldn't shallow up ships in the ocean. He was god of the sea, and his wife too (forgot her name). Freyr was the god of rainbows, rains and fruit or something. They all make their gods responsible for phenomenon that they did not understand.

It is really telling that in every civilization around the world has a different religion that explains something that we are ignorant about. Some if not all of those religions seem to be made up by man. What makes a particular religion more right than all the other "false" religion? It can't be just experience because many ppl do have "experiences" of their religions.

It's like Slenderman. The creator said it's fake. We know it's fake. But you still find kids/ppl who believe in it anyway. Same thing with gray aliens. Y'know where gray aliens came from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it started with a novel called Man on the Moon. It talks about gray men of the moon. This was later adapted into World of the Wars I think, where they had little gray men with some other alien species. That idea was later adapted to little gray men with big heads in other fiction tales and movies. After this a spike went up on the aliens that fit the description that was a fictional tales of those novels.

And this relates to religion as well. How many of them are fictional? Just an answer to our ignorance of the universe?



Micku.

Thank you for speaking of those miracles and addressing Mathematics.

A day prior to reading this post, my How To Think Like A Mathematician and How to Prove It book came in. Coincidence?

What the Sathya Baba did and what was witnessed is not in conflict with religions. Prophets and Saints can do miracles, but it is actually Allah performing it through them.

Jews and Muslims believe that God is One. A portion of Christians do. Hindus also believe in a Supreme Deity (although they have avatars) This is evidenced by the fact that the entire Universe is calibrated in a way that can only be done without conflicting wills. Something as fragile as a human being, who is dependent upon such restrictive parameters; ranging from temperature, to oxygen level, to blood pH, is upon Earth, has been created, nourished, and endured decades of existence many tens of billions of times over. That all living things share something in common, but are unique. And hundreds of others.

In regards to subjectivity.

A building can't even be built without some objectivity, let alone a civilization. Yet there were plenty before us.
BS would be a misplaced brick, no?


People aren't even going to stop fighting each other without some universal moral establishment.
People can't even acquire peace if they live a lie, their very conscience would reject things. Yet millions before us have had peace.
People can't even continue the acquisition of knowledge without some consensus.


This is where we disagree I think. What Sathya Baba did would be in conflict with Islam from my understanding. The Qur'an said there would be no prophets after him. And what Sathya Baba said was the he was a reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi. This may conflict with Jews and Muslims of what happens in the afterlife. The Jews think all dead ppl go to the same place maybe and there could be stages in heaven? I heard different things tho. Muslims believes that they all stay in purgatory until judgement day, and then they will be split with heaven and hell.

It also conflicts with Christianity a bit, since you are supposed to live eternity in heaven or hell after you die, and since Jesus died for our sins, the gate is pretty much open. Both Muslims and Christians believe that the dead will rise in judgement day too (zombies!!!). With Christians, it kind'a already happen if you read Matthew. But some scholars think that's probably isn't true. I think no one, Mark, Luke, John or even Peter mention the dead rising. No Jews. No early Christians. No Romans. Nothing. And the jews wrote about everything that happen in the temple veil too. Like when the wind opens up the door.

Of course, you could say that all of the little details don't matter since there is only one god. But the very concept of being a god is subjective and is in the scriptures. But if some of the scriptures are wrong, that opens the door for other things that could be wrong.

And us having life or the universe existing may not be good example of anything spiritual necessary. Since before we didn't know how particles gather mass, and now we do, the universe is expanding, or the physical order of our universe. The universe could be just is and we don't know if there is any other universes out there. There could be as many universes as they are galaxies as far as we know. And we don't even know what we are expanding into. While I wouldn't toss out of the existence of there being a god or a being that created the universe, there is nothing to suggest it yet.

[Micku]

Like even concepts of heaven and hell seem a bit weird from what we know. And Christianity beliefs too.

Like how can you feel pain without brain (suffering in hell)? Like the whole concept of pain is to protect you. This is done by sending electric signals to your brain and it responds back. This is all part of the central nervous system, which we can manipulate. Paul said that flesh and mind (or something like that) disappear after you die. The soul isn't that. So, how do you feel pain without signals?

And fire in hell? This implies that there is oxygen in hell. For fire to even exist, there must be a combustible substance present. This also implies that something (souls maybe) have carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Thus it is something physical. Thus it has have a low amount of temperature to be something solid (again, physical). Chemical process of burning will convert these chemical to gas. And the whole concept of fire electrons moving super fast, which also physical as well. And the fact it has color shows that it is in the electromagnetic spectrum. So, would fire be this in hell? If so, it may contradict of being the whole flesh deal. It all implies matter and mass, which is all physical nature. And fire isn't even that hot compared converting something into plasma, which is another state of matter.

You can respond by saying it could be dark matter. However dark matter doesn't respond to electromagnetism. So, what would a soul do that? And does a soul give out gravity? If it does, it has some mass. Is there a separate higgs boson for a soul? Is there a separate higgs boson for even the concept of spiritual things in general?

And what makes our conciseness really that important in comparison to animals who has brain matter? To us, yeah. But to the universe or potential gods? If other animals don't have an afterlife (which some religions debate), why should we? Dolphins have some sort of self awareness yet they may not go to dolphin heaven or hell.

And conciseness is really in our brain to begin with as evidence from personal changes from drugs, accidents, and etc. Our personality changes when there is a chemical change. What we consider to be soul based upon good/bad deeds is just blocking blocks of chemicals from the periodic table. Thus you can change it. If everything that matter to us in terms of who we are (self awareness and crap), that is only physical matter in our brain. What happens if you take the brain away? That is you afterall. What happens if we potentially keep your head alive and disregard the body, except for the heart, like this dog experiment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSggSPjUYRw#t=04m54s

I think this dog came back to life after being dead and kept alive without the body. So...when exactly are you considered to be "dead" and your soul goes to this spiritual plane of existence? If it is when your organs get eaten away by maggots, then....aren't you just part of maggots then? I mean...that is your body. They are eating the organs that you used to think with. And if we could bring an organism back to life via head and blood, then how is there a soul or even an afterlife? And which afterlife? There are a lot of near death experiences report from across religions. Native Americans reported their afterlife near death experiences. Hindus and Christians. Some reported nothing. Saying they saw nothing and felt nothing. This was enough to belief atheism and vice versa with other religions.

This is a subjective experience that all resolves around your brain activity it seems. How can religion be right, when so many ppl have personal experiences due to their religion and other religions conflict with them?

Bottomline, why would even say there is a god from so many inconsistencies and lack of convincing evidence? The fact that there are so many religions and ppl believing so strongly and having experiences with them should conflict that the "one and right" religion in our world. Hindus are cool tho since they accept a bunch of things.

The every concept of god and afterlife is unknown and it varies in different parts of the world. And since a lot of religions are made up, this opens up the discussion that all religions are made up. So, how can you really know? Is it better to say that we don't know, which is probably the most honest answer humanity can give than say there is a god? You can say that you believe or think there is, and try to give out evidence for it or personal experiences, but as I said...there are subjective across cultures.

[Micku]

Religious people feel that something must have created everything, so that something must be God, but who created God? :confusedshrug:

And yeah, that is pretty much the the ever lasting question. While ppl of faith have problem accepting the universe came from nothing, but don't question that god also came from nothing. He was always there. Eternal.

While it could be true that is the case, but there probably is no such thing as nothing. Maybe whatever that's outside our universe is "nothing" but we don't know. The Universe could've always been there. What don't know the amount of time that passed that caused the universe to expand and create hydrogen and shit or even elementary particles. How long did it create take to quarks, leptons, antileptons?

And with the bible in genesis, god created night and day before he created the sun. What? What we call night and day is only because the Earth spins on its axis while it resolves around the sun. How can you even know what is a day without the Sun? And what type of day? Earth's 24 hour day isn't the same as Mercury day. Somewhere in the bible it did say that god's day is longer than our day? Something like that. So, seven days might not mean seven literal days. But that also conflicts with the verse saying that god called the light day and the dark night, and thus a day. And how is this any different from what the other religions do to explain something that is outside their knowledge at the time? There is no mention of nuclear fusion, gases, plasma, materials of earth, photons, none of that. Not even gravity, which is important due to the positioning of the earth, the waves of our planet, and stuff. It would be neat if that was in genesis tho. We would've been a lot smarter. We could possibly finally have that hoverboard from Back to the Future already.

And Paul said that there was no death before humans sin'd. So...entropy didn't exist. But the whole reason why have light is because of entropy. But he could mean organisms. And humans ate crap. That's killing organisms right there. And what about the dinosaurs? I guess you can say that he meant human death, but it's broad and vague.

There are many contradictions from what we know from our physical world. If god exist, he must'a change the physical universe or something. And the process of creating quantum physics is a curious one of why it was created and why it's not mentioned. Like what's up with quantum entanglement? What's up discharges of elements producing photons?

Anyway, we'll probably never know tho. If you die and nothing happens then nothing happens. If you die and go to the afterlife, then you'll have to wait until an event to happen to tell everyone unless you have a NDE or whatever.

Live and let live I say. Believe what you what and live life to the fullest. Just don't destroy world or anything. That's a dick move.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Not informed enough to reply to all your doubts. All I can say is that a strong reading of the Qu'ran, Bhagavad Gita, Bible, and Torah would be your best bet in tackling these questions. Where do they confirm. Do they resonate? Do Math and Science reaffirm it.
Embryology is confirmed in the Qu'ran by Tejatet Tejasen.
That and living righteously, a balanced life, not polluting the Earth, taking only what you need, giving to charity, being trustworthy, virtuous (because the heart must also be trained to receive wisdom). All values considered good in all cultures.

The description for Grey Aliens, Reptilians, supernatural creatures called Jinn (invisible and not bound to space and time), and the images people see while they are on a salvia trip are remarkably similar.
The story of arrogant tyrants being challenged to make the Sun rise from the West, are also in Native American folklore.
There's a convergence of Truths. Like trickling streams leading to brooks leading to rivers leading to oceans. We're kind of on that journey on our little boats.

Regarding False Gods

Has he made the gods [only] one God? Indeed, this is a curious thing."
These were the sentiments of the Quraysh tribe (who offered sacrifices to idols they created by their own minds and hands) when Pure Monotheism was reintroduced to them.
Perhaps a modern day analogy would be a human immersed in worshipping sports, money, his ego, fake tyrants, and then being awe-struck that all those things are actually created and have no power to hurt or to harm them.


Regarding Differences among Jews and Christians.
[QUOTE][COLOR="Green"]And We have revealed to you, [O Mu

[Micku]

Not informed enough to reply to all your doubts. All I can say is that a strong reading of the Qu'ran, Bhagavad Gita, Bible, and Torah would be your best bet in tackling these questions. Where do they confirm. Do they resonate? Do Math and Science reaffirm it.

The description for Grey Aliens, Reptilians, supernatural creatures called Jinn (invisible and not bound to space and time), and the images people see while they are on a salvia trip are remarkably similar.


Unfortunately, I don't think it does. People around that time didn't have the knowledge of the gravitational attraction. The two body problem wasn't understood until Newton or topics of quantum physics. So, it wasn't said. Digging into the scriptures to find it would probably lead to more subjective conclusions than a decisive one. Like instead of saying the Earth spins on its axis because of conservation of angular momentum, which also cause the day and night cycle with the Sun being there, it just says god created light and dark, and called the light day and dark night. It was never said that photons that bounce off or absorb is the reason for light, at least as we see it. It was also never said anything about dark matter. Since they don't interact with electromagnetism, they aren't bounced or absorb by light. So, things in scriptures are rather simplified or some could be scientific incorrect, but I would have to brush up my knowledge on it.

And also the Jinns! Isn't that specifically a Islam terminology? To ppl who don't know, they were created by smokeless fire. I believe they are....three intelligent creatures that god created. Humans, angels and Jinns. My point bringing up the gray aliens is to show that even though the work was fictional, ppl still believed in it and "seen" it. Same thing with the Slenderman. Ppl believed in the blair witch project too.But that's not all, ppl used to believe in Kodama in Japan. This is a japanese spirit who is peaceful, unless you try to cut down a tree where a kodoma lives in and then bad things would happen to you. You got Dullahan, the headless horseman from the Irish folklore tales. Ppl in general just create myths. They did it back then and they do it today. It makes it very hard to tell the difference between fiction and reality.


And one more thing...what's up with the space time of angels and Jinns and how they are not bound by it? I personally never got the reasoning for that or where was that even said? Granted, I don't think a lot of stuff makes sense. I get moving very fast, but not bound by time? That's probably....not true.

The reason why is because what do we consider time to by? Time is a measurement of change. So, if these creatures ever changed, thought, movement, or whatever, then they are within time and you can forever track them within time. So, it doesn't make any sense. The moment you decide to move or the elements or subatomic particles that move that make up you or these creatures, then they exist within time. Like Jinns for example. They are made from smokeless fire. Fire is moving. Thus within time. And from the moment they are created, they exist within time. Thus they are forever tracked by time. Without time, they be nothing. They wouldn't move or have any thoughts. But ppl who believe in that do think they active, thus they move within time. Thus they are bound within time.

The reason why space comes into play is because you need space to really exist or move. When you move within space, you also move within time as well. I don't remember exactly when the concept of space and time was created, but I think questioning about time was there for a while. But space-time of what we know now was enhance from general and special relativity with Einstein.

I think it would be better to say that they are not bound by our physical limitation. And one more thing. Assuming they are not bound with space and time, was the the limitation? Is there one at all? There has to be one because couldn't they move faster than the speed of light and then go back into the past? Is this even possible? If it is, what about time paradoxes? Are we constantly changing and we don't realize it due to time paradoxes that will fix whatever you are doing right now based upon Jinns screwing up the timeline? And if they could go back in time, could they go back to the future with via twin paradox?

And we are constantly moving. So, they would have to calculate the exact space we would be at on Earth if they want to interact with us to time travel back. So, they are bound via space. Because Earth exist in a space and is constantly moving. Not only is Earth spinning on it's own axis, but it's also tilting and is resolving around the sun. And our solar system and galaxy are moving too. We are not in the same space all the time. So, in order to even interact with us, they have to calculate all of this. Again, this is being bound by space and time.

Regardless, it doesn't seem possible to time travel in the past. Maybe multiverse or time travel to the past, but you can't interact with it. Thus limitation due to space and time. So, they are bound by it. And not only that, we have realms of heaven/hell and crap. That is literally space with matter. You have fire in hell, which is matter. Heaven has houses...which is matter? And what type of material does these houses have? In Isiah 65:21 it says this when describing about heaven if I'm getting this right:


They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

That is matter. And you eat. And if you build crap, or eat crap, you change. This is living within space and time. And why would need to build crap in the first place? Why plant vineyards? I guess for the fun of it. Is there photosynthesis in heaven? This obviously contains some of the periodic table, which is physical matter. And these are where angels live.

[Micku]

Still, all 3 believe in Heaven and Hell. Buddhism and Hinduism as well. Likely other faiths.

As it applies to you Micku, your brain is EXCELLENT at finding the contrasts, but you must train it to find the unity. And when in doubt realize that it's okay just to EMPTY as the Taoists do. As it applies to me Micku, I must rigorously apply all facets of knowledge to come to an optimal knowledge.


Regarding the Night and Day



Well, thanks for the compliment my man. Really appreciate it.

And finding unity on itself isn't really good or bad. Especially with religion. In this sense, it would be kind'a creating a new religion in general. Sometimes it could lead into a sloppy slope tho. Like would you combine all of the tales of Jesus in the first four centuries even though they contradict with each other? The gospels in general contradict with each other, and they weren't really intended to be one major book. It small books that was targeted to ppl. And if you are planning uniting religions then not all could be right due to the contradictions. Not only within their religion but against other ones. Thus you end questioning what else is wrong and so on.

Of course some religions, like Hindus, are cool with it I think.

And from your hell/heaven statement, I would say all three have sections where they believe in hell. Not necessary all three believe in hell cuz the Jews do varies as you said. And the hells differ when you compare it to Hindu or Buddhist hell.

And to me, the day and night explanation isn't really there. I mean...I addressed at the top and it goes to the same issue. Days in general differ from planet to planet. A single day for Mercury is 58 earth days. Mercury rotation is slow. As you can see, very slow. And days varies from planet to planet. And the "day" is dependent if you even have a sun. So, how on earth (lol) can you determine a day if there is no star there to begin with? The best explanation that a day in the realm of god is different from our day. But even then, does god's realm have a star?????


Don't despair on never not knowing either...

Likewise as the guidance He gives gets stronger, there will be much more order in the events of your lifes. One exercise you can do right now is take a walk and meditate on the the creation around you. I.E. Look at the tree what do you see in it; Purpose: Provide shade, habitation, food, for other organisms, it has strength, wisdom, aspects manifest, aspects hidden, beauty, fine craft etc.. From that we deduce ..... How am I like it? What can I learn from it?

Then play some advanced Blue's Clues.

Now think, God has guided this particular organism (Micku)'s eyesight into receiving an image of that tree... What does it mean?


Heh. I guess it's hard not to despair on not knowing stuff? I mean even the brightest of minds failed to gain the knowledge that they pursuit their whole lives to achieve. If there is an afterlife, maybe then? But if there isn't, then they died without knowing. I guess you'll die without knowing regarldess if there is an afterlife or not.

And that sounds like trying to find the meaning life right there from the whole, "Look at the tree what do you see in it".

Technically, you should see cells if you got the material. In those cells, you should see cell walls, DNA, and crap. And within that DNA it contains Thymine, Adenine, Guanine, and Cytosine holding together via hydrogen bonds. I don't know how much we can see after that, so I'll stop there. It goes all the way to elementary particles tho. Perhaps even deeper. And they are all moving like they just don't care.

So, it varies from person to person of what you see and what you can take from it. A person can have a spiritual experience from looking at a tree. Another person can see the tree as an organism who serve the same purpose as all other organisms. Try to survive and reproduce. Some ppl think it's beauty, some not. Some will take the sampling of the tree, try to learn everything about that tree in order to improve life in someway. Others will have a more personal experience. Trees have different species, so...I guess it depends on the tree. I wonder which species of trees get the most ppl having spiritual experiences with it. I think palm trees get the shaft tho. They must be on the bottom tier of spiritual experiences.


We is the royal pronoun for Allah. Allah is One. Clear distinction, in Arabic i makes sense.

Point being: is your actions, if they have a positive intent and positive outcome and are done consistently will earn you reconciliation with the plethora of unanswered questions you have running around in you cerebrum at the moment. The acquisition of knowledge, refinement of character, and sincerity of worship must all be done together


Peace be upon you,

Well yeah. I mean we should be cool. Everyone should be cool and have positive intent and actions. Nobody should be a jerk. Although you do have jerks throughout history who do have positive intent, but do harm to other ppl.

Regardless, it should be mention that despite disagreements that we should all be cool with one another. I would say live and let live. Do you man. Just don't be a dick and blow up the planet before Legend of Zelda comes out.

Sorry for the long wordy essay. I gott'a make these shorter.