Lebron james: Im chasing Jordan

[juju151111]

https://www.google.com/amp/basketball.realgm.com/wiretap-amp/243016/LeBron-James-My-Motivation-Is-The-Ghost-Im-Chasing-Who-Played-In-Chicago?client=ms-android-sprint-us

[Dray n Klay]

So was the mob...

[inclinerator]

So was the mob...
:yaohappy:

[stalkerforlife]

He's so delusional. :lol

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.

[Hey Yo]

He doesn't have too far to go.

:rockon:

[InsanityKills]

So was the mob...
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hey Yo]

He's so delusional. :lol

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.


Originally Posted by stalkerforlife

If Cavs win the title, I will never watch another NBA game in my life...
Nor will I support the NBA in any way.

The NBA fixing game 5 for the Cavs was the first straw.

If they somehow fix the entire series for them, I am done.

I will not subject myself to fake, predetermined, fraudulent bullshit. I love this game because of the purity in competition that it's supposed to have.

Bran's entire career has been a fraud, and maybe the 2012 finals were fixed for him, but it'll be the last straw if they fix another for him.

I don't do soap operas. I don't do wrestling. And I damn sure won't do the NBA if the Cavs win this series.


Originally Posted by jlip
Does that mean that you will also never post on ISH again? Please say, yes


Originally Posted by stalkerforlife
In the NBA forum, yes.

I'll probably just stick to the off topic forum.


GTFO stalkingfagsforlife

[Orlando Magic]

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.

Agreed. We all know Kobe and Curry weren't good but just products of hype and acting.

[kamil]

He doesn't have too far to go.

:rockon:

3/7?

He's already missed the mark. Are you being deliberately stupid?

[Sarcastic]

http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljxpbcZhHN1qaphrco1_500.gif

[Ca$H]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoZajxXVUAAXWWj.jpg

Curry will end up with 7 titles and KD will end up with 6 titles if the dubs can stay healthy. Bran's only hope of winning another title is more significant injuries to the dubs.

[scuzzy]

So was the mob...
Ohhhhh NOOOOO!!!

He did it again. :roll: :roll:

[WadeBronDonJuan]

He's so delusional. :lol

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.

Oh this is hilarious. So how does this work in your mind, Stalker? Are you telling us that all of the NBA players are in on the rigging? Like they intentionally miss and make shots? Hahaha.

[hold this L]

He's going to need 3 more to do it, and I don't see that happening especially after Durant's joined the Warriors. I think he will get 4 before he retires though, esp if he plays like his monster 16' finals performances.

All the Lebron fans are Warrior/Durant fans? Why does it feel like the one guy with 30 alts who liked Bron and Durant is having trouble picking skwaaads?

:yaohappy:

[Dray n Klay]

He's going to need 3 more to do it, and I don't see that happening especially after Durant's joined the Warriors. I think he will get 4 before he retires though, esp if he plays like his monster 16' finals performances.

All the Lebron fans are Warrior/Durant fans? Why does it feel like the one guy with 30 alts who liked Bron and Durant is having trouble picking skwaaads?

:yaohappy:


The only person with alts is you, baby-boy

:yaohappy:

[FKAri]

He's so delusional. :lol

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.
So Kobe was an actor too? :lol

[PP34Deuce]

As far as the GOAT, I don't see that happening. but as far as overall impact to basketball...

He can certainly be in that space. I can't speak for Lebron but when I think of him saying he's chasing Jordan, I believe he's chasing him the brand. Your brand is memorable and one of the reasons Jordan is still in the heart of everyone.

Lebron has that same impact in shoes sales, business ventures, on court, off court. He's got the chance to be a billionaire NBA athlete who can eclipse moguls like Magic Johnson and possibly dethrone Jordan financially and influence wise.

[hold this L]

The only person with alts is you, baby-boy

:yaohappy:
Nah fam, I actually have a life and won't remain a virgin for the rest of my life like you. I don't need another alt to tell you that you're a loser, one account will do.

[riseagainst]

why would he chase down?

[Keno]

one more mvp and finals mvp and it's pretty much set in stone. lebron will then be greatest player to ever play.

[scuzzy]

Nah fam, I actually have a life and won't remain a virgin for the rest of my life like you. I don't need another alt to tell you that you're a loser, one account will do.

a triple ad-hom combo !

- "no life"
- "virgin"
- "loser"

Hit em wit dat "moms basement" knockout bruh. :roll::rolleyes: :roll:

[dazzer87]

one more mvp and finals mvp and it's pretty much set in stone. lebron will then be greatest player to ever play.
https://m.popkey.co/665ed9/gKqNY.gif

[SecondTake]

As far as the GOAT, I don't see that happening. but as far as overall impact to basketball...

He can certainly be in that space. I can't speak for Lebron but when I think of him saying he's chasing Jordan, I believe he's chasing him the brand. Your brand is memorable and one of the reasons Jordan is still in the heart of everyone.

Lebron has that same impact in shoes sales, business ventures, on court, off court. He's got the chance to be a billionaire NBA athlete who can eclipse moguls like Magic Johnson and possibly dethrone Jordan financially and influence wise.


His brand is not even close globally, his shoe sales are far lower than MJs

[Dray n Klay]

His brand is not even close globally, his shoe sales are far lower than MJs

Jordan's shoe sales include other players under the brand like CP3 Blake Melo :no:



LeBron shoes individually sell more than MJs

[bdreason]

Well at least we know what the ESPN narrative will be this season.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Anyone with half a brain knows LeBron James is right up there with Michael Jordan, and if you deny it, you're a delusional hater.

LeBron is a better rebounder, passer, playmaker, defender/rim protector, higher bball IQ, and a better leader. MJ just has scoring over him.

If LeBron gets 1 or 2 more rings.. he will ABSOLUTELY be considered top 2.

Haters will deny it, haters will act like it wont happen, but LeBron as of TODAY is as good as Jordan. In 2011, I would be the first one to say he wont catch Jordan, but the rest of his career says otherwise.

2016 finals is the greatest feat in NBA history. The End. No ifs, ands or buts.

[Cone]

Well at least we know what the ESPN narrative will be this season.

A warrior 'fan' is talking about ESPN narratives? :oldlol: GTFOH

You dont remember Curry being considered an all-time great? Thats the worst garbage ive ever heard and ESPN spewed it all day every day.

[Ca$H]

Jordan's shoe sales include other players under the brand like CP3 Blake Melo :no:



LeBron shoes individually sell more than MJs

Curry shoes individually sell more than Bran's.

[Cone]

As for the topic, LBJ is top 5 at worst and is in the MJ, Kareem GOAT tier. lebron has 7-8 more years, if you dont think he is going to be considered with MJ when hes retired then your clueless

[bdreason]

A warrior 'fan' is talking about ESPN narratives? :oldlol: GTFOH

You dont remember Curry being considered an all-time great? Thats the worst garbage ive ever heard and ESPN spewed it all day every day.


And I thought the Curry narrative was ridiculous as well. What's your point?


Are you denying that ESPN will push the LeBron chasing Jordan narrative next season?

[scuzzy]

And I thought the Curry narrative was ridiculous as well. What's your point?


Are you denying that ESPN will push the LeBron chasing Jordan narrative next season?
Doubtful, Lebron will be in full coast nxt season, more passive, little highlights

Espn will be slurping the Knicks with no shame, im guessing 15-20 games national broadcast

The vengeance of Westbrook, his 33, 12, 10 statline

Highlighting Warriors as the enemy, all theyre off court tmz shit

Bulls w Wade, Wolves coming up, Giannis next stud, Kyrie Irving

[Kenomax]

LeBron is on the way to become GOAT. 5 years ago no one believed it, but now after 5 years playing in finals, all legendary finals, GOAT level he's in GOAT tier. In 5 years should be clear goat :cheers:

[andgar923]

Why are people laughing at him?

I respect and command him for trying, let alone stating that publicly. All players should aspire to be the best, him trying to be better than MJ makes me like him more.

Kinda late for him tho, but at least he's still trying.

He could've started by joining the dunk contest but well.

[LostCause]

Anyone with half a brain knows LeBron James is right up there with Michael Jordan, and if you deny it, you're a delusional hater.

LeBron is a better rebounder, passer, playmaker, defender/rim protector, higher bball IQ, and a better leader. MJ just has scoring over him.

Rebounder and Rim Protector I can agree with. Defender I vehemently don't. B-ball IQ and Leadership shouldn't even be listed here since it's unquantifiable/bad to compare as it relies solely on individual opinion. In my opinion, Jordan is superior in both those regards anyway. As for passing/playmaker, I'd say they're about even despite their vastly different roles in their teams offenses. Lebron usually handles the playmaking for his teams while Jordan was featured more for his scoring prowess, though we see as we did in the 91 Finals and the segment of the season where he was running the point that Jordan can and did pass and create very well if his role called for it

Scoring can also be broken down into more categories to give either player more or less of an advantage, as passer/playmaker and defender/rim protector were. Just like Jordan with passing I think if Lebron was asked to score more, he could, and he displayed as much in the last 2 Finals.

These 2 players are easily 2 of, if not THE, best to ever play. It's a shame we couldn't see them compete against each other

[Asukal]

So all these lef@ggots are still fapping nonstop to 3/7? :roll:

Maybe lebum should chase Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Russell, etc first. :oldlol: :lol :banana:

3/7? :whatever:

[Magic 32]

Anyone with half a brain knows LeBron James is right up there with Michael Jordan, and if you deny it, you're a delusional hater.


Lebron was one suspension away from 2-5.



LeBron is a better rebounder, passer, playmaker, defender/rim protector, higher bball IQ, and a better leader. MJ just has scoring over him.


The better leader is the one that wins less? Or just statpads when the game is lost? How was he a great leader in 2011 and 2014. Or 2010 for that matter.



2016 finals is the greatest feat in NBA history. The End. No ifs, ands or buts.

Why?

Because the Warriors were unbeatable? They should have lost to the Thunder. The freaking Blazers were one overtime miracle by Curry away from 2-2.

Lebron's finals were 1 all-time great game (game 6) 1 great game with a giant asterisk next to it (game 5), and otherwise games that swings from decent to mediocre (and includes insane amount of garbage time statpadding).

[Doranku]

Good for him. I don't think he'll get there, but he's going to get pretty damn close. I mean, if he wins this year, he's top 3 at worst. Probably 2nd, imo.

Who knows what might happen after that?

[Dray n Klay]

Kobe is not Top 10 all-time

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron was one suspension away from 2-5.



The better leader is the one that wins less? Or just statpads when the game is lost? How was he a great leader in 2011 and 2014. Or 2010 for that matter.



Why?

Because the Warriors were unbeatable? They should have lost to the Thunder. The freaking Blazers were one overtime miracle by Curry away from 2-2.

Lebron's finals were 1 all-time great game (game 6) 1 great game with a giant asterisk next to it (game 5), and otherwise games that swings from decent to mediocre (and includes insane amount of garbage time statpadding).


I love how you idiots keep saying lebron statpads, then fail to show proof of where in those 3 games the cavs won where he specifically stat padded. :lol :lol
To some of you scoring anytime the cavs had a big lead or were down is statpadding to you. :lol :lol

[tpols]

Lebron is literally two jumpshots not made by himself away from 1-7. Jordan never let it get to that point, and he didnt need that type of fortune to evade defeat. He just dominated end to end. period.

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron is chasing Jordan, while Kobe is still trying to get inside the building!

http://i68.tinypic.com/eas6s8.jpg

[Magic 32]

He can't just see himself as one of the best.

His ego can't take or allow anything less than the official number 1 spot.

It been like this since his rookie year. Said it in interview from the very start. He had never matured enough to let that go.

He must be recognized as the greatest person in human history.

No wonder his fans are petulant little f*ckers.

[Magic 32]

I love how you idiots keep saying lebron statpads, then fail to show proof of where in those 3 games the cavs won where he specifically stat padded. :lol :lol
To some of you scoring anytime the cavs had a big lead or were down is statpadding to you. :lol :lol

When ABC commentators calls out out....you are statpadding.

[plowking]

He can't just see himself as one of the best.

His ego can't take or allow anything less than the official number 1 spot.

It been like this since his rookie year. Said it in interview from the very start. He had never matured enough to let that go.

He must be recognized as the greatest person in human history.

No wonder his fans are petulant little f*ckers.

You would be the type to try and shame goal setting. :oldlol:

[Dray n Klay]

You would be the type to try and shame goal setting. :oldlol:

Magic 32 failed every goal he ever setted.


He said he would leave ISH after the Finals, and here he is still following me around

:yaohappy:

[scuzzy]

Magic 32 failed every goal he ever setted.


He said he would leave ISH after the Finals, and here he is still following me around

:yaohappy:

https://s31.postimg.org/zee1o5mff/magic32.png

:roll: :roll:

[Magic 32]

He said he would leave ISH after the Finals


Never said that.


https://s31.postimg.org/zee1o5mff/magic32.png

:roll: :roll:

I'm I at 10.000 ?

At 9.999 I will kiss you losers goodbye.

[Mr Feeny]

Good for him. I don't think he'll get there, but he's going to get pretty damn close. I mean, if he wins this year, he's top 3 at worst. Probably 2nd, imo.

Who knows what might happen after that?That's already the case. He's top 2-3 now. If he beats the Warriors + Durant, he's arguably GOAT by next June or top 2 at the very worst while closing the gap to MJ significantly.

[eliteballer]

Magic 32 failed every goal he ever setted.


He said he would leave ISH after the Finals, and here he is still following me around

:yaohappy:

Setted?

SETTED?


:roll:

[Mr Feeny]

Setted?

SETTED?


:roll:

Set.

[Magic 32]

You would be the type to try and shame goal setting. :oldlol:

Is your goal to live vicariously through a selfish balding prick?

[Mr Feeny]

Is your goal to live vicariously through a selfish balding prick?

Kobe's already retired.

[Magic 32]

Kobe's already retired.

I think he making movies now.

He should make one about the descruction of competition in the NBA.

Starting with the summer of 2010.

[plowking]

Never said that.



I'm I at 10.000 ?

At 9.999 I will kiss you losers goodbye.

Once again, you would be the type to have message board goals. :oldlol:

[Dray n Klay]

I think he making movies now.

He should make one about the descruction of competition in the NBA.

Starting with the summer of 2012.

fixed

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_500.png

Kobe tried to fix the system in his favor and failed miserably

[Magic 32]

Once again, you would be the type to have message board goals. :oldlol:

One goal.

And you will make it easy to keep.

Basketball discussion?

This place has been a kindergarten for 3-4 years.

[Magic 32]

fixed

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_500.png

Kobe tried to fix the system in his favor and failed miserably

MWP?

40 year old PG?

Past prime Kobe and Pau.

Vapid and desperate comparison.

Durant followed Lebron. Enjoy the results.

[scuzzy]

MWP?

40 year old PG?

Past prime Kobe and Pau.

Vapid and desperate comparison.

Durant followed Lebron. Enjoy the results.

He picked and chose that roster :confusedshrug:

Noone elses fault except himself that he cant recruit winners

BTW have fun with more Cavs sloppy seconds in Mozgov, dude can't catch a ball if you paid him. And they do! 16m a year! :lol

[Mr Feeny]

MWP?

40 year old PG?

Past prime Kobe and Pau.

Vapid and desperate comparison.

Durant followed Lebron. Enjoy the results.

Most stacked team in nba history by far and kobrick wet the bed and failed to get them the 1st seed:lol

[Xover]

He's so delusional. :lol

NBA = Nothing but actors.

What a joke.

honestly if this were true then why the F are you a fan?

[Spurs m8]

I'm chasing Jordan too.

Same sh*t

[knicksman]

LMAO. He needs to win 1 first without cheating to have a ring as respectable as jordan.

[Mr Feeny]

LMAO. He needs to win 1 first without cheating to have a ring as respectable as jordan.

Both are top 2-3 players. Kobe is 12th:lol

[Kenomax]

So all these lef@ggots are still fapping nonstop to 3/7? :roll:

Maybe lebum should chase Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Russell, etc first. :oldlol: :lol :banana:

3/7? :whatever:

Kobe, Bird :hammerhead:
He surpassed them years ago.

[PHILA]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17206177/former-michael-jordan-teammate-bj-armstrong-lebron-james-chasing-ghost-make-believe-land

B.J. Armstrong advises LeBron to 'get rid of all the comparisons'

B.J. Armstrong played six seasons and won three championships with Michael Jordan, which gives him an up-close, personal and unique perspective on the psyche of the player widely regarded as the greatest of all time.

Armstrong, 48, does not believe it impossible for a current player to surpass Jordan, so it was with great interest that he read comments made by LeBron James that appeared Tuesday in a Sports Illustrated article.

Now that he has delivered Cleveland its first championship in 52 years, James said his chief motivation is catching or eclipsing Jordan as the best player ever: "My motivation is the ghost I'm chasing. The ghost played in Chicago."

Armstrong, now a player agent who represents Derrick Rose, has some advice for James.

"Chasing a ghost is in make-believe land," Armstrong told ESPN.com in a telephone conversation. "That's far-out, that's unattainable, that's something you can't achieve. This ain't no ghost. If you want to do it, there's a blueprint. It's possible. There's only one way to get there. It's not possible for him to do what Jordan did because the circumstances are different, everything is different. What is possible for him is to be bigger than every situation that's put in front of him, to dominate every situation that's in front of him.''

Armstrong, who won titles in Chicago in 1991, 1992 and 1993, said James has to adopt the mentality that comparing himself to any other player, including Jordan, is an insult.

"This is to LeBron James: If you want to be the best, get rid of the comparisons," Armstrong said. "Get rid of all the comparisons that are out there. That's what Michael Jordan did. Jordan realized that in order to be the best, you had to get rid of all the comparisons.

"When you compared Jordan to somebody else, it made him more and more upset. That was with guys who played before him, guys he was playing against and guys in the future. He got upset every time [the media] got on TV and started comparing him to other people. When you compared who is the best 2-guard -- Jerry West or Michael Jordan -- he was upset. When you talked about who was the best player in the NBA, he was upset. When you talked about who had the most championships, he was upset.

"I remember vividly him getting upset. He's mad right now that somebody's even thinking a guy can get to his level. Jordan tackled them all -- Wilt [Chamberlain], everyone. Everyone from 1946 on, he went after them until there was no one left to compare him to. So my challenge to LeBron is: This ghost has a face to him. So get rid of all the comparisons because Jordan, unequivocally, did not want you to compare him to anyone.''

Jordan told ESPN.com on Tuesday that he had not read the Sports Illustrated article. When shown LeBron's quotes, he said he would not comment because he had not seen the entire article.

When asked how James can eliminate the comparisons to other players, Armstrong said he has to be obsessed with dominating every moment he's on the court, whether in practice, games or summer competition.

"Every time he steps on the floor, LeBron has to establish that he's the best," said Armstrong, who briefly worked in Chicago's front office after retiring in 2000. "Every year is an opportunity for him to raise his level to the best of the best. When another player raises his level and has a great year, LeBron has to move his game to an even higher level. Jordan used every opportunity to establish who's the best. He didn't go to the Olympics to hang out. He went there to establish who was the best.

"I don't know LeBron, but what I do know in watching today's game is that Michael Jordan was a very unique character -- not physically, but mentally. Jordan never stepped out on the court to have a good time. He stepped out there to establish that he was the best. Every great player he played against. he went after them -- in practice, in games, in the 1984 Olympics, in summer league, in a workout, in the '92 Olympics. He went after me every day in practice. He went after every player every day in practice. He went after every coach -- until, when it was all said and done, there was no one left standing.'"

Armstrong, who played 11 NBA seasons, hopes James is not the only current player who heeds his comments.

"I'm saying this because this next generation of young players, every time you step on the court, there needs to be a sense of urgency," he said. "No joking around. Michael Jordan was the greatest practice player I've ever seen. He could go and play 40 minutes the night before and then go practice the next day like he was the rest of us -- guys who didn't play.

"I want these young kids to have that mentality. Jordan had phenomenal talent. He had phenomenal understanding. But he also had a mentality that I haven't seen. He had a sense of urgency every time he stepped on the floor. These guys now need to take on that challenge. At the end, we'll know whether LeBron did it or not when y'all stop comparing him to other players."

[Indian guy]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17206177/former-michael-jordan-teammate-bj-armstrong-lebron-james-chasing-ghost-make-believe-land

B.J. Armstrong advises LeBron to 'get rid of all the comparisons'

B.J. Armstrong played six seasons and won three championships with Michael Jordan, which gives him an up-close, personal and unique perspective on the psyche of the player widely regarded as the greatest of all time.

Armstrong, 48, does not believe it impossible for a current player to surpass Jordan, so it was with great interest that he read comments made by LeBron James that appeared Tuesday in a Sports Illustrated article.

Now that he has delivered Cleveland its first championship in 52 years, James said his chief motivation is catching or eclipsing Jordan as the best player ever: "My motivation is the ghost I'm chasing. The ghost played in Chicago."

Armstrong, now a player agent who represents Derrick Rose, has some advice for James.

"Chasing a ghost is in make-believe land," Armstrong told ESPN.com in a telephone conversation. "That's far-out, that's unattainable, that's something you can't achieve. This ain't no ghost. If you want to do it, there's a blueprint. It's possible. There's only one way to get there. It's not possible for him to do what Jordan did because the circumstances are different, everything is different. What is possible for him is to be bigger than every situation that's put in front of him, to dominate every situation that's in front of him.''

Armstrong, who won titles in Chicago in 1991, 1992 and 1993, said James has to adopt the mentality that comparing himself to any other player, including Jordan, is an insult.

"This is to LeBron James: If you want to be the best, get rid of the comparisons," Armstrong said. "Get rid of all the comparisons that are out there. That's what Michael Jordan did. Jordan realized that in order to be the best, you had to get rid of all the comparisons.

"When you compared Jordan to somebody else, it made him more and more upset. That was with guys who played before him, guys he was playing against and guys in the future. He got upset every time [the media] got on TV and started comparing him to other people. When you compared who is the best 2-guard -- Jerry West or Michael Jordan -- he was upset. When you talked about who was the best player in the NBA, he was upset. When you talked about who had the most championships, he was upset.

"I remember vividly him getting upset. He's mad right now that somebody's even thinking a guy can get to his level. Jordan tackled them all -- Wilt [Chamberlain], everyone. Everyone from 1946 on, he went after them until there was no one left to compare him to. So my challenge to LeBron is: This ghost has a face to him. So get rid of all the comparisons because Jordan, unequivocally, did not want you to compare him to anyone.''

Jordan told ESPN.com on Tuesday that he had not read the Sports Illustrated article. When shown LeBron's quotes, he said he would not comment because he had not seen the entire article.

When asked how James can eliminate the comparisons to other players, Armstrong said he has to be obsessed with dominating every moment he's on the court, whether in practice, games or summer competition.

"Every time he steps on the floor, LeBron has to establish that he's the best," said Armstrong, who briefly worked in Chicago's front office after retiring in 2000. "Every year is an opportunity for him to raise his level to the best of the best. When another player raises his level and has a great year, LeBron has to move his game to an even higher level. Jordan used every opportunity to establish who's the best. He didn't go to the Olympics to hang out. He went there to establish who was the best.

"I don't know LeBron, but what I do know in watching today's game is that Michael Jordan was a very unique character -- not physically, but mentally. Jordan never stepped out on the court to have a good time. He stepped out there to establish that he was the best. Every great player he played against. he went after them -- in practice, in games, in the 1984 Olympics, in summer league, in a workout, in the '92 Olympics. He went after me every day in practice. He went after every player every day in practice. He went after every coach -- until, when it was all said and done, there was no one left standing.'"

Armstrong, who played 11 NBA seasons, hopes James is not the only current player who heeds his comments.

"I'm saying this because this next generation of young players, every time you step on the court, there needs to be a sense of urgency," he said. "No joking around. Michael Jordan was the greatest practice player I've ever seen. He could go and play 40 minutes the night before and then go practice the next day like he was the rest of us -- guys who didn't play.

"I want these young kids to have that mentality. Jordan had phenomenal talent. He had phenomenal understanding. But he also had a mentality that I haven't seen. He had a sense of urgency every time he stepped on the floor. These guys now need to take on that challenge. At the end, we'll know whether LeBron did it or not when y'all stop comparing him to other players."

The **** is BJ even going on about here? MJ constantly compared himself to other greats - most notably Magic and Bird. He was always talking about chasing them/surpassing them/achieving something they didn't. They were clearly what he measured himself up against. There's nothing wrong with LeBron trying to do the same with MJ.

[Vragrant]

I think Lebron gets unfairly criticized a lot of the times, but this is probably one of the most arrogant things Lebron has ever said. How can you have a losing record in the Finals and compare yourself to the GOAT?

Its funny because when Jordan was playing, he even before he was retired he was lauded with praise as the GOAT by fans and media but he didn't bite, saying he cannot be the greatest because it would do a disservice to the greats who came before him and influenced his game.

[MP.Trey]

I think Lebron gets unfairly criticized a lot of the times, but this is probably one of the most arrogant things Lebron has ever said. How can you have a losing record in the Finals and compare yourself to the GOAT?

Its funny because when Jordan was playing, he even before he was retired he was lauded with praise as the GOAT by fans and media but he didn't bite, saying he cannot be the greatest because it would do a disservice to the greats who came before him and influenced his game.
If people like Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas are calling you top 5 at the age of 31, and you're confident in your own abilities, I could only consider that a detriment if you don't think you can become the greatest ever.

[Dragonyeuw]

The **** is BJ even going on about here? MJ constantly compared himself to other greats - most notably Magic and Bird. He was always talking about chasing them/surpassing them/achieving something they didn't. They were clearly what he measured himself up against. There's nothing wrong with LeBron trying to do the same with MJ.

I understand what BJ is saying. It's not about duplicating MJ's career, or winning 'x' titles to be the GOAT, like the narrow-minded arguments I often see here. It's really about redefining what the "GOAT" is perception-ally for the greater basketball community. It's not as if having the most rings, or points, or MVPs, automatically equates to GOAT because MJ isn't #1 in any of those categories.

Frankly, duplicating feats of previous greats is impossible in many ways. Just with how the league works nowadays, free movement, salary caps, etc etc, it's impossible for anyone to duplicate Bill Russel's 11 rings in today's era. It's just not happening. I would even venture to say duplicating 6 rings in 8 years is close to impossible today. So it's unfair to judge current players by those standards. Its really about maximizing potential based on the landscape of the league at that moment in time.

[bigkingsfan]

How can you have a losing record in the Finals and compare yourself to the GOAT?

I guess it's better to lose to the same team three straight playoffs and not even reaching the finals.

[Dragonyeuw]

I guess it's better to lose to the same team three straight playoffs and not even reaching the finals.
Is losing to one of the GOAT dynasties with a lesser team supposed to be shameful?

[bigkingsfan]

Is losing to one of the GOAT dynasties with a lesser team supposed to be shameful?
We're talking three consecutive years, has Lebron ever lost to the same team twice in a row? :confusedshrug:

[Tainted Sword]

The **** is BJ even going on about here? MJ constantly compared himself to other greats - most notably Magic and Bird. He was always talking about chasing them/surpassing them/achieving something they didn't. They were clearly what he measured himself up against. There's nothing wrong with LeBron trying to do the same with MJ.

Did you even read the article?

MJ may have entertained the comparisons in public for the sake of his image, but Armstrong is speaking about how he actually felt. I trust the dude who actually spent time with Jordan in private over some Lebron fanboy trying to defend his man-crush for no reason.

That said, I am excited for what Lebron does next.

[Dragonyeuw]

We're talking three consecutive years, has Lebron ever lost to the same team twice in a row? :confusedshrug:

Does it matter? He lost twice in situations where he had HCA. It was so expected that the Cavs would make the finals in 2009 and 2010 that Nike created the Kobe/Bron puppet commercials; that's how of a foregone conclusion it was. Again, we're talking the late 80's Detroit Pistons. Exactly what is shameful about losing to them? Hell, who's to say they don't win in 1990 if Pippen doesn't have a migraine? Shit, I won't play the what if game, but just saying: the Pistons were all-time great dynasty. You act like he lost to scrubs.

[bigkingsfan]

Does it matter? He lost twice in situations where he had HCA. It was so expected that the Cavs would make the finals in 2009 and 2010 that Nike created the Kobe/Bron puppet commercials; that's how of a foregone conclusion it was. Again, we're talking the late 80's Detroit Pistons. Exactly what is shameful about losing to them? Hell, who's to say they don't win in 1990 if Pippen doesn't have a migraine? Shit, I won't play the what if game, but just saying: the Pistons were all-time great dynasty. You act like he lost to scrubs.
And he just beat a 73 wins team. :pimp:

[Indian guy]

Did you even read the article?

Did you? There was really no reason for BJ to go on this long rant about what LeBron needed to do to surpass MJ. Nobody asked him that, especially not LeBron. All LeBron stated was whom he was chasing, just like MJ always talked about chasing Magic and Bird. And as someone who has read practically every MJ book ever written and listened to countless interviews of his, never have I gotten the slightest indication that he bristled at the comparison between him and Bird/Magic. Why would he? They were his seniors and clearly more accomplished than him for at least half his career. And not only was MJ's respect for them rather obvious, but he was also always rather outspoken about them being what he judged himself by. And surpassing them being his ultimate goal. Even BJ doesn't mention MJ having an issue with Magic/Bird comparisons anywhere. MJ/Drexler or MJ vs. some of the other top players during his reign in the 90's? Sure. So I don't understand why BJ took issue with LeBron saying he was chasing MJ's ghost, considering MJ was no different about chasing Bird/Magic.

[plowking]

Does it matter? He lost twice in situations where he had HCA. It was so expected that the Cavs would make the finals in 2009 and 2010 that Nike created the Kobe/Bron puppet commercials; that's how of a foregone conclusion it was. Again, we're talking the late 80's Detroit Pistons. Exactly what is shameful about losing to them? Hell, who's to say they don't win in 1990 if Pippen doesn't have a migraine? Shit, I won't play the what if game, but just saying: the Pistons were all-time great dynasty. You act like he lost to scrubs.

So it isn't a detriment losing to better teams, but getting your team to play better than a more talented team and losing to them is? :oldlol:

Bron prior to 2013 never had the best team in the league. 2011 is the only other arguable time. You want to fault him for losing with the Cleveland teams he had before? :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

One goal.

And you will make it easy to keep.

Basketball discussion?

This place has been a kindergarten for 3-4 years.
What's that have to do with James winning 3FMVP's in the last 5yrs?


WITNESS!

[Hey Yo]

Does it matter? He lost twice in situations where he had HCA. It was so expected that the Cavs would make the finals in 2009 and 2010 that Nike created the Kobe/Bron puppet commercials; that's how of a foregone conclusion it was. Again, we're talking the late 80's Detroit Pistons. Exactly what is shameful about losing to them? Hell, who's to say they don't win in 1990 if Pippen doesn't have a migraine? Shit, I won't play the what if game, but just saying: the Pistons were all-time great dynasty. You act like he lost to scrubs.
Not shameful in losing, but the 1989 ECF series was tied at 2.

Game 5 was the biggest postseason game to date for MJ and he shit to bed by only taking 8FGA for the entire game. He took more FTA than FGA.

[MintBerryCrunch]

So was the mob...
6/10

[Da_Realist]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5qvmO99MEdg

[Real14]

:roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

So it isn't a detriment losing to better teams, but getting your team to play better than a more talented team and losing to them is? :oldlol:

Bron prior to 2013 never had the best team in the league. 2011 is the only other arguable time. You want to fault him for losing with the Cleveland teams he had before? :oldlol:

Im not sure how this disputes what I said. The Pistons were a superior team to the Bulls, just as the 2009 Magic and 2010 Celtics were superior to the Cavs. The difference is the Bulls lost as underdogs, and the Cavs lost as favorites. Nobody looked at the Cavs as playoff frauds in 2009 and 10 until they were exposed as such.

The Bulls werent the best team without Jordan, were they? That was proven in 94. But but but, they won 55 games!

[Dragonyeuw]

And he just beat a 73 wins team. :pimp:

That were exposed as not as good as their record indicates. Can we think of some examples of teams who had the leagues best record and failed in the playoffs?

[Doranku]

So it isn't a detriment losing to better teams, but getting your team to play better than a more talented team and losing to them is? :oldlol:

Bron prior to 2013 never had the best team in the league. 2011 is the only other arguable time. You want to fault him for losing with the Cleveland teams he had before? :oldlol:

lmao who was better than the Heat in 2012? Bron lost THREE years in a row in the playoffs with homecourt advantage. Of course he deserves fault for that.

Especially when you look at the teams he lost to. The 23 year old Dwight Howard led Orlando Magic? :oldlol: Past his prime Dirk and a bunch of roleplayers? I guess he can have somewhat of a pass for 2010 against the Celtics, even though the dude was packing his bags for Miami halfway through the series.

LeBron, a top 5 all-time player, easily had enough talent surrounding him to win in 2011. That finals series is simply inexcusable. And having HCA + a team that was able to win 66 games during the regular season easily should've been enough to beat that garbage Magic team.

This dude gets a pass for EVERYTHING from you stans. It's ridiculous.

[bigkingsfan]

That were exposed as not as good as their record indicates. Can we think of some examples of teams who had the leagues best record and failed in the playoffs?
And those old Cavs team were what their records indicated, yea right, pick one side and stick with it. Every single expert picked GSW to win. :facepalm


Past his prime Dirk and a bunch of roleplayers?
The same team that swept the two peat Lakers, yea that one.

[Young X]

lmao who was better than the Heat in 2012? Bron lost THREE years in a row in the playoffs with homecourt advantage. Of course he deserves fault for that.

Especially when you look at the teams he lost to. The 23 year old Dwight Howard led Orlando Magic? :oldlol: Past his prime Dirk and a bunch of roleplayers? I guess he can have somewhat of a pass for 2010 against the Celtics, even though the dude was packing his bags for Miami halfway through the series.

LeBron, a top 5 all-time player, easily had enough talent surrounding him to win in 2011. That finals series is simply inexcusable. And having HCA + a team that was able to win 66 games during the regular season easily should've been enough to beat that garbage Magic team.

This dude gets a pass for EVERYTHING from you stans. It's ridiculous.Question: If despite all this, you personally still label him as a top 5 player aren't you giving him a pass too kinda?

How are you gonna talk about his stans giving him a pass and you still have him where they do?

[Dragonyeuw]

And those old Cavs team were what their records indicated, yea right, pick one side and stick with it. Every single expert picked GSW to win. :facepalm




So if the old Cavs teams that won 66 games werent as good as their record would indicate, based on how their season ended, the same logic should apply for the Warriors. Pick a side and stick with it. Great regular season squads that fell short when it counted? They're a dime a dozen.

[bigkingsfan]

So if the old Cavs teams that won 66 games werent as good as their record would indicate, based on how their season ended, the same logic should apply for the Warriors. Pick a side and stick with it. Great regular season squads that fell short when it counted? They're a dime a dozen.
You made that original argument not me. Pick a side.

[Doranku]

Question: If despite all this, you personally still label him as a top 5 player aren't you giving him a pass too kinda?

How are you gonna talk about his stans giving him a pass and you still have him where they do?

Maybe I'm overrating him a little bit based on what he just accomplished this past season. Regardless though, he's somewhere in the top 10. That much can't be argued at this point.

The difference is his stans just want to sweep those years under the rug (and 2008, and his miserable 2007 finals performance) and make it seem like the dude is a Jordan-type playoff performer, which simply isn't true.

2012-2016 LeBron is probably close to Jordan's level, but it's silly to act like 2007-2011 never happened.

[AirBonner]

Maybe I'm overrating him a little bit based on what he just accomplished this past season. Regardless though, he's somewhere in the top 10. That much can't be argued at this point.

The difference is his stans just want to sweep those years under the rug (and 2008, and his miserable 2007 finals performance) and make it seem like the dude is a Jordan-type playoff performer, which simply isn't true.

2012-2016 LeBron is probably close to Jordan's level, but it's silly to act like 2007-2011 never happened.
And people want to sweep Ordan's 1-9 under the rug. Losing in the finals shouldn't count against you. I would take a finals opportunity any day over a first round exit. Any logical person would...

[Doranku]

And people want to sweep Ordan's 1-9 under the rug. Losing in the finals shouldn't count against you. I would take a finals opportunity any day over a first round exit. Any logical person would...

Yeah, because a braindead moron who calls arguably the greatest midrange player of all-time "Ordan" is logical. :rolleyes:

[AirBonner]

Yeah, because a braindead moron who calls arguably the greatest midrange player of all-time "Ordan" is logical. :rolleyes:
Meh. At least I didn't avoid your statement

[Dragonyeuw]

You made that original argument not me. Pick a side.

You brought up the 'beat a 73 win team' argument, if you hadn't we wouldnt be having this discussion. Pick a side.

[Im Still Ballin]

Number of 60+ win teams beaten in playoffs: Kobe - 2 LeBron - 3...

[Im Still Ballin]

Number of 73+ win teams beaten in playoffs: LeBron - 1 Rest - 0

[bigkingsfan]

You brought up the 'beat a 73 win team' argument, if you hadn't we wouldnt be having this discussion. Pick a side.
No breh, re-read what you say originally. I simply mentioned he also beat a 73 wins teams, I didn't even mention the state of the OG Cavs.

[Dragonyeuw]

No breh, re-read what you say originally. I simply mentioned he also beat a 73 wins teams, I didn't even mention the state of the OG Cavs.

I initially responded to your point that it's better to lose to the same team 3 years in row, obviously as a dig at Jordan, ignoring that the Pistons are one of the all time great dynasties, to which I asked is there supposed to be shame in that, to which you asked if Lebron has ever lost to the same team 3 times in a row. You seem to be inferring that Lebron losing to the Celtics in 2008, the Magic in 2009, and the Celtics again in 2010 isn't as bad as losing to the Badboy Pistons.

What was your point in bringing up the 73 win team? That no-one has ever beaten one before? Because best RS record doesn't equate championship, the Warriors found that out this year and Lebron has on 2 occasions. The Warriors are no different than the Pats a decade ago, ran through the regular season and got exposed in the playoffs. OKC already provided the blueprint and only failed because Durant reverted to beta form. The Warriors got drunk on hype and forgot that legacies are made in June, not April. They looked extremely mortal in the playoffs. The second best team record-wise( the Spurs) didn't even make the WCFs, so I don't see the point in throwing around regular season records.

[bigkingsfan]

I initially responded to your point that it's better to lose to the same team 3 years in row, obviously as a dig at Jordan, ignoring that the Pistons are one of the all time great dynasties, to which I asked is there supposed to be shame in that, to which you asked if Lebron has ever lost to the same team 3 times in a row. You seem to be inferring that Lebron losing to the Celtics in 2008, the Magic in 2009, and the Celtics again in 2010 isn't as bad as losing to the Badboy Pistons.

What was your point in bringing up the 73 win team? That no-one has ever beaten one before? Because best RS record doesn't equate championship, the Warriors found that out this year and Lebron has on 2 occasions. The Warriors are no different than the Pats a decade ago, ran through the regular season and got exposed in the playoffs. OKC already provided the blueprint and only failed because Durant reverted to beta form. The Warriors got drunk on hype and forgot that legacies are made in June, not April. They looked extremely mortal in the playoffs. The second best team record-wise( the Spurs) didn't even make the WCFs, so I don't see the point in throwing around regular season records.
Mike lost three years to the same team and the only reason why he finally beat them because they were done. People were ready to kill Lebron for losing to GSW team this year, facts are facts.

Blueprint? :confusedshrug: Lebron/Kyrie is drastically different than KD/Westbrook. They didn't use the same strategy, Curry was held to five points less than the WCF. They beat an all time great team, deal with it.

[Dragonyeuw]

Mike lost three years to the same team and the only reason why he finally beat them because they were done. People were ready to kill Lebron for losing to GSW team this year, facts are facts.

Blueprint? :confusedshrug: Lebron/Kyrie is drastically different than KD/Westbrook. They didn't use the same strategy, Curry was held to five points less than the WCF. They beat an all time great team, deal with it.

And so what? The Pistons between 88 and 90 were their peak, their core players in 91 were 30 and the defending champions. Asides from Isiah's injury, not sure how that constitutes being done. Pippen before 91 wasn't close to what we saw from Kyrie in the finals. It's like Kyrie playing FMVP level ball himself and outplaying Curry was inconsequential to the series outcome.

Golden State were exposed as mortal by OKC, compared to the regular season when they looked basically invincible. That wasn't close to the level that OKC and Cleveland saw. They lost as many games in the playoffs as the regular season. Durant choking in game 6 and Klay playing out of his mind only delayed the leaking ship for another series.

End of the day, I'm happy the Cavs won, in fact I was rooting for Lebron to win because a 2-7 finals record is pretty damn ugly for someone of his stature. So there is nothing for me to deal with, the victory moved Lebron up a few pegs but he's still chasing the GOAT, directly from the man's mouth.

[plowking]

Maybe I'm overrating him a little bit based on what he just accomplished this past season. Regardless though, he's somewhere in the top 10. That much can't be argued at this point.

The difference is his stans just want to sweep those years under the rug (and 2008, and his miserable 2007 finals performance) and make it seem like the dude is a Jordan-type playoff performer, which simply isn't true.

2012-2016 LeBron is probably close to Jordan's level, but it's silly to act like 2007-2011 never happened.

Bron averaged 28/9/7 on 46% shooting from 07-11 in the playoffs. Jordan for his playoff career put up 33/6/6 on 49%. I mean if you take out that horrid 11, then he is at 29/9/8... lol.

Are those numbers not on Jordan level? Are they not directly comparable?
In fact for their whole careers, Bron is at 28/9/7 on 48% shooting and Jordan like I said at 33/6/6 at 49%. Is that not extremely similar? Is there impact on the game not extremely similar? In fact you could argue Bron being able to lead teams so young, so far hurt his numbers.

You say we can't sweep 2007 and 2011 under the rug. 2011 fair enough, 2007 no one cares about because they had no shot. They were outgunned, and really the worse team by a fair margin. At the same time, the difference between Bron and Jordan is, when Bron played poorly, his team didn't pick up and win in spite of it. Jordan always got that help.
His shocking game 7 against Indiana never gets brought up. His shocking closeout game 6 against the Sonics in 96 never gets brought up. Why? Because his teams won. I'd love to know the last time Bron went 5/19 and his team ended up winning in the playoffs. When is the last time, or any time, where Bron only score 5 field goals and his team won in the playoffs?

Bron gets ridiculed for his 2014 performance against the Spurs FFS. :oldlol:
Shooting 57% from the field and 52% or whatever it was from three, and he still gets shit. :oldlol:

I don't know how anyone can actually sit here and pretend there is some massive gap between the two, if there is at all.

[Dragonyeuw]

Bron averaged 28/9/7 on 46% shooting from 07-11 in the playoffs. Jordan for his playoff career put up 33/6/6 on 49%. I mean if you take out that horrid 11, then he is at 29/9/8... lol.

Are those numbers not on Jordan level? Are they not directly comparable?
In fact for their whole careers, Bron is at 28/9/7 on 48% shooting and Jordan like I said at 33/6/6 at 49%. Is that not extremely similar? Is there impact on the game not extremely similar? In fact you could argue Bron being able to lead teams so young, so far hurt his numbers.



The stats bear out as you would expect, MJ with better scoring and Lebron with better rebounding and assists. But you're looking at MJ's complete body of work versus Lebron's incomplete body, which are likely to dip slightly when he hits 33-35 years old, just as MJ's did. Use MJ's 84-93 numbers, his youth/prime/peak years, and without doing the math those numbers probably spike to 35/7/7 or something like that. Lebron will probably still wind up with something like 28/7/7 for his playoff career once he's done, but he's not likely to stay at current numbers. If he does, he'd be bucking the trend of every player before him whose numbers dip in their post prime years. Maybe he transitions more to the interior and maintains 8 or more rebounds as he ages, but assists and scoring are likely to level off a bit.

[Dray n Klay]

The stats bear out as you would expect, MJ with better scoring and Lebron with better rebounding and assists. But you're looking at MJ's complete body of work versus Lebron's incomplete body, which are likely to dip slightly when he hits 33-35 years old, just as MJ's did. Use MJ's 84-93 numbers, his youth/prime/peak years, and without doing the math those numbers probably spike to 35/7/7 or something like that. Lebron will probably still wind up with something like 28/7/7 for his playoff career once he's done, but he's not like to stay at current numbers. If he does, he'd be bucking the trend of every player before him whose numbers dip in their post prime years.

Hopefully you realize Jordan's early year playoff numbers were inflated due to pace?

Pace in the 80's were greatly higher than pace nowadays.






In fact its staggering that LeBron and Jordans numbers are comparable given that Jordan got to play in a faster paced era with more possessions, and throughout their careers LeBron has generally faced tougher defenses (lower Drtg)



Overall when you factor everything LeBrons numbers > Jordans

[Dragonyeuw]

Hopefully you realize Jordan's early year playoff numbers were inflated due to pace?

Pace in the 80's were greatly higher than pace nowadays.





You can use 88-93 if you want to throw out his 85-87 playoff runs. Throw some pace numbers my way. And on another note, that avatar is pretty messed up but then the forum is run like shit, so anything goes I guess.

[andgar923]

All Bron stans have is mostly empty stats.

Once one takes away the stats and simply analyse their game, it's very clear who the better player is.

[Dray n Klay]

All Bron stans have is mostly empty stats.

Once one takes away the stats and simply analyse their game, it's very clear who the better player is.


stats are the only thing keeping Jordan from being compared to Demar Derozan, baby boy

[andgar923]

stats are the only thing keeping Jordan from being compared to Demar Derozan, baby boy
In your pea brain mind

[andgar923]

Bron fans think a screen and roll are examples of good off the ball movement, in that case will Perdue is great at it!!!

Shit, Oliver Miller is a beast then, best off the ball player :lol

I swear I can't make this shit up! And as an example they us misleading broad contextless stats as proof!!!

Although 90% of Brons game is standing at the perimeter.

At least Kobe fans had a decent argument cause well, that boy got skills.

[bigkingsfan]

And so what? The Pistons between 88 and 90 were their peak, their core players in 91 were 30 and the defending champions. Asides from Isiah's injury, not sure how that constitutes being done. Pippen before 91 wasn't close to what we saw from Kyrie in the finals. It's like Kyrie playing FMVP level ball himself and outplaying Curry was inconsequential to the series outcome.

Golden State were exposed as mortal by OKC, compared to the regular season when they looked basically invincible. That wasn't close to the level that OKC and Cleveland saw. They lost as many games in the playoffs as the regular season. Durant choking in game 6 and Klay playing out of his mind only delayed the leaking ship for another series.

End of the day, I'm happy the Cavs won, in fact I was rooting for Lebron to win because a 2-7 finals record is pretty damn ugly for someone of his stature. So there is nothing for me to deal with, the victory moved Lebron up a few pegs but he's still chasing the GOAT, directly from the man's mouth.
Lets be real here, Mike would never allow someone else to take the same amount of shots as him. Detroit were done, getting swept and losing in the first round the following year.

It's not exposed, it's called level of competition. Have you ever considered OKC/Cavs being great teams that made GS look vulnerable. The Bulls weren't exposed because the Packers took them to 7 games.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lets be real here, Mike would never allow someone else to take the same amount of shots as him. Detroit were done, getting swept and losing in the first round the following year.

It's not exposed, it's called level of competition. Have you ever considered OKC/Cavs being great teams that made GS look vulnerable. The Bulls weren't exposed because the Packers took them to 7 games.

Let's be real, Mike never played with anyone who warranted shooting as much. Pippen's scoring barely increased when MJ left, so clearly his impact on Pippen's( his second option) offensive numbers was minimal. Kyrie is quite clearly a more potent offensive player than Pippen was. What Detroit did in 1992 has no bearing on 1991. They came into 91 the defending champions and made it to the conference finals. That's not 'done'.

OKC and the Cavs are great teams, that doesn't negate that the Warriors in the playoffs clearly weren't playing at the same level as the regular season. You're the one who brought up the 73 wins, but the reality is that the Warriors won in 2015 amidst a number of key injuries, and 73 wins now looks trite because they couldn't get it done. Have you considered that maybe the Cavs are better than their record suggests, and the Warriors not quite as good as theirs suggests?

[bigkingsfan]

Let's be real, Mike never played with anyone who warranted shooting as much. Pippen's scoring barely increased when MJ left, so clearly his impact on Pippen's( his second option) offensive numbers was minimal. Kyrie is quite clearly a more potent offensive player than Pippen was. What Detroit did in 1992 has no bearing on 1991. They came into 91 the defending champions and made it to the conference finals. That's not 'done'.

OKC and the Cavs are great teams, that doesn't negate that the Warriors in the playoffs clearly weren't playing at the same level as the regular season. You're the one who brought up the 73 wins, but the reality is that the Warriors won in 2015 amidst a number of key injuries, and 73 wins now looks trite because they couldn't get it done. Have you considered that maybe the Cavs are better than their record suggests, and the Warriors not as good as theirs suggests.
Kyrie and Pippen average the same amount points when both were first option. Detroit were done, winning only 50 games and seeded third.

73 is 73, Cleveland also had guys that were bang up. Their three best players were healthy. No excuses.

[Dray n Klay]

Kyrie as 1st option:

20.8 ppg on 45% FG


Pippen as 1st option

22.0 ppg on 49% FG







So Pippen was clearly the better scorer, another lie by Dragonyeuw

[Sarcastic]

stats are the only thing keeping Jordan from being compared to Demar Derozan, baby boy

Hands down winner of dumbest thing ever said on ISH.

And that's not an easy thing to accomplish.

[Chokefree]

stats are the only thing keeping Jordan from being compared to Demar Derozan, baby boy

Are you really that fvcking stupid? No wonder your parents leave you in the basement......:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[juju151111]

Kyrie as 1st option:

20.8 ppg on 45% FG


Pippen as 1st option

22.0 ppg on 49% FG







So Pippen was clearly the better scorer, another lie by Dragonyeuw
Except Pippen was in his prime and 8th year. Irving was a freaking 21 year old.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kyrie as 1st option:

20.8 ppg on 45% FG


Pippen as 1st option

22.0 ppg on 49% FG







So Pippen was clearly the better scorer, another lie by Dragonyeuw

Oh look, more cherrypicking by Dubeta/Dray and Klay/Brontard alt #1001. The numbers you posted for Pippen were a single season, 1994. The numbers you posted for Kyrie are his career averages. Kyrie averaged 22.5 in 2013, and in 5 years has 3 20ppg seasons. Pippen has 4 in 17 seasons, and never the offensive threat that Kyrie was in the finals.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kyrie and Pippen average the same amount points when both were first option. Detroit were done, winning only 50 games and seeded third.

73 is 73, Cleveland also had guys that were bang up. Their three best players were healthy. No excuses.

Pippen averaged 22.8 in his best playoff run, 1994 as the first option .Kyrie averaged 25 in the 2016 playoffs and 27ppg in the finals playing behind Lebron James. Nope.

50 games and a third seed is done. :rolleyes:

[bigkingsfan]

Pippen averaged 22.8 in his best playoff run, 1994 as the first option .Kyrie averaged 25 in the 2016 playoffs and 27ppg in the finals playing behind Lebron James. Nope.

50 games and a third seed is done. :rolleyes:
How many points did Kyrie avg in the playoffs as a first option? 0
Which brings back to the original point, Lebron allow Kyrie to take those shots. Would Mike ever allow Pippen to do the same, nope.

50 games is supposed to be impressive now? They were done from a title contender standpoint, thus got swept.

[Dragonyeuw]

How many points did Kyrie avg in the playoffs as a first option? 0
Which brings back to the original point, Lebron allow Kyrie to take those shots. Would Mike ever allow Pippen to do the same, nope.

50 games is supposed to be impressive now? They were done from a title contender standpoint, thus got swept.

What does that matter? Kyrie, at this stage in his career, is more offensively potent than Pippen. He's good enough offensively to be trusted with taking enough shots, or to use your term 'given' :rolleyes: enough shots by Lebron. He's good enough to be trusted in a game 7 with the championship winning shot( a shot he created off the dribble and not 'given' to him by Lebron, but I digress). Meanwhile, Phil thought Kukoc was a better final shot taker in a 2nd round playoff game. Your original point was saying that MJ wouldn't let anyone shoot as much. We'll never know, because he never played with an offensive player good enough to take as many shots as him. And since MJ is one of the most potent offensive weapons in history, few players are good enough to take as many shots as him anyway. So your premise is non-nonsensical at its core.

You're moving the goalpost from 'being done' to 'being done as a contender'.They won 50 games with Isiah missing half the year and got to the conference finals, usually if you're a conference finalists you're considered a contender. OKC got to the conference finals this year, were they not contenders? We clearly have different definitions of the term done, so I'll leave you to milk that cow dry.

[scuzzy]

Bigkingsfan serving slay after slay


Impressive :applause:

[bigkingsfan]

What does that matter? Kyrie, at this stage in his career, is more offensively potent than Pippen. He's good enough offensively to be trusted with taking enough shots, or to use your term 'given' :rolleyes: enough shots by Lebron. He's good enough to be trusted in a game 7 with the championship winning shot. Meanwhile, Phil thought Kukoc was a better final shot taker in a 2nd round playoff game. Your original point was saying that MJ wouldn't let anyone shoot as much. We'll never know, because he never played with an offensive player good enough to take as many shots as him. And since MJ is one of the most potent offensive weapons in history, few players are good enough to take as many shots as him anyway. So your premise is non-nonsensical at its core.

But they weren't done, good enough to get to the conference finals at least. They won 50 games with Isiah missing half the year, but we'll ignore how that could have impacted their win total. We clearly have different definitions of the term done, so I'll leave you to milk that cow dry.
Take Lebron off this team and Kyrie goes back to his 22 ppg 45%, missing playoff days. You still call him offensive potent?

Title contender don't get swept like that or you're going to argue that they were just as good as the previous years.

[Dragonyeuw]

Take Lebron off this team and Kyrie goes back to his 22 ppg 45%, missing playoff days. You still call him offensive potent?

Title contender don't get swept like that or you're going to argue that they were just as good as the previous years.

Except Kyrie demonstrated this finals run that he's starting to come into his peak years, 5 years in the league and coming off the high of a championship run. So basically, your argument is that he'd be the same player as he was 2-3 years ago and hasn't gotten better. You really believe that? Whether he makes the playoffs or not is irrelevant to his scoring ability, which is what I'm talking about. Obviously if you take Lebron off the Cavs they are much worse, but then perhaps you're of the opinion that Lebron wins the title without Kyrie? We got the answer to that last year. Kyrie's 2nd season he posted a higher scoring average than Pip ever did, and you act like 45% is something to sneeze at, considering 25% of his shots are 3's.

Did I make that argument? Obviously they weren't, but they weren't done either.

[bigkingsfan]

Except Kyrie demonstrated this finals run that he's starting to come into his peak years, 5 years in the league and coming off the high of a championship run. So basically, your argument is that he'd be the same player as he was 2-3 years ago and hasn't gotten better. Yeah, makes zero sense. Whether he makes the playoffs or not is irrelevant to his scoring ability, which is what I'm talking about. Obviously if you take Lebron off the Cavs are much worse, but then perhaps you're of the opinion that Lebron wins the title without Kyrie? We got the answer to that last year.

Did I make that argument? Obviously they weren't, but they weren't done either.
We did see Lebron win multiple titles without Kyrie already. Kyrie could get better or not on his own who knows. His numbers actually got worse in his 3rd year vs 2nd. It's a lot of burden to be the first option every night.

Ok bub, the Pistons were title contenders the following year too then.

[Dragonyeuw]

We did see Lebron win multiple titles without Kyrie already. Kyrie could get better or not on his own who knows. It's a lot of burden to be the first option every night.

Ok bub, the Pistons were title contenders the following year too then.

What Lebron did in prior finals has no bearing on the here and now. In the here and now, he needed Kyrie's 27ppg on 49% to tough out a 7 game series. And in the here and now, he displayed pure offensive ability at the highest level last finals that wasn't in Pippen's repertoire. Nowhere near the ISO creator, nowhere near the shooter and overall shotmaking ability. And Kyrie is carving a niche as one of the best finishing guards to come along in some time.

There's a big difference between a team that loses in the first round, and one that makes the conference finals, bub.

[bigkingsfan]

What Lebron did in prior finals has no bearing on the here and now. In the here and now, he needed Kyrie's 27ppg on 49% to tough out a 7 game series. And in the here and now, he displayed pure offensive ability at the highest level last finals that wasn't in Pippen's repertoire. Nowhere near the ISO creator, nowhere near the shooter and overall shotmaking ability. And Kyrie is carving a niche as one of the best finishing guards to come along in some time.

There's a big difference between a team that loses in the first round, and one that makes the conference finals, bub.
Kyrie is nowhere near the overall player Pippen is, if you want to make a fair comparison between the two.

The Raptors must be title contenders too, making it to the conference finals and all.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kyrie is nowhere near the overall player Pippen is, if you want to make a fair comparison between the two.

The Raptors must be title contenders too, making it to the conference finals and all.

Unless I made some point about overall play, beyond goalpost moving again that bears no relevance on the topic of scoring ability. Obvious Pippen is a superior two-way player, but the discussion is based around MJ not letting anyone else shoot as much as him- your words. Pippen wasn't a good enough scorer to take as many shots as MJ. His overall game isn't relevant to that point.

Yes, they were. Not serious title contenders, but very few years are there more than 3 teams that are legit contenders. I guess being a conference finalist is trivial based on the agenda.

[bigkingsfan]

Unless I made some point about overall play, beyond goalpost moving again that bears no relevance on the topic of scoring ability.

Yes, they were. Not serious title contenders, but very few years are there more than 3 teams that are legit contenders. I guess being a conference finalist is trivial based on the agenda.
The Raptors were title contenders.
Ok, I'm officially out. :roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

The Raptors were title contenders.
Ok, I'm officially out. :roll:

Bye. I already said not serious title contenders, but in your little black and white world there can't be such things as 'tiers' of contenders. If you weren't Cleveland or Golden state, then you weren't a contender. The Spurs won 66 games and lost in the 2nd round, oh well guess they weren't a contender.

[ClipperRevival]

Seriously, why are LeBron fans so DESPARATE. to prop up Pippen? He was one of the best all around players ever but he never had "the man" scoring ability. That's the hardest thing to do in bball and he lacked that skill.

Sh't. MJ had more 40+ point games in his 2 seasons with the Wizards when he was 38-40 than Pip did his entire career. Ponder that for a minute.

Kyrie utterly sh'ts on Pip as a scorer. They aren't even in the same level. Pip never had a stretch like Kyrie did in the finals. Never peaked like Kyrie in those 50+ games.

[Sarcastic]

Kyrie is nowhere near the overall player Pippen is, if you want to make a fair comparison between the two.

The Raptors must be title contenders too, making it to the conference finals and all.


Not yet, but current Kyrie is better than Pippen was in 1991, and probably as good as 1992 Pippen. Give Kyrie time. He is only getting better.

[Sarcastic]

And don't forget, Lebron needed Wade to win his first 2 rings, and Wade has accomplished far more without Lebron, than Pippen ever accomplished without Jordan.

[plowking]

And don't forget, Lebron needed Wade to win his first 2 rings, and Wade has accomplished far more without Lebron, than Pippen ever accomplished without Jordan.

Scottie during period of winning 6 titles: 20/7/6 on 48%
Scottie in the playoffs during same time: 19/8/6 on 44%

Wade during in period of 4 finals together: 22/5/5 on 51%
During the playoffs in that same time: 20/5/4 on 47%

What does them achieving anything before have to do with anything? 6 peat Pippen was a better player than Wade during his years with Bron overall. Not to mention, Jordan had a guy that would guard the best guy for him every night. Something Wade didn't do for Bron.

[masonanddixon]

lebron sucks

[warriorfan]

He needs to catch up with Hakeem Olajuwon first

[andgar923]

Scottie during period of winning 6 titles: 20/7/6 on 48%
Scottie in the playoffs during same time: 19/8/6 on 44%

Wade during in period of 4 finals together: 22/5/5 on 51%
During the playoffs in that same time: 20/5/4 on 47%

What does them achieving anything before have to do with anything? 6 peat Pippen was a better player than Wade during his years with Bron overall. Not to mention, Jordan had a guy that would guard the best guy for him every night. Something Wade didn't do for Bron.
Look i'm gonna post stats because that's all I know!!!

Wade played with a ball dominant player, pip usually shared running the offense with MJ. This reduces Wade's assist numbers.

Wade is miles ahead of creating his own shot, whereas Pip usually gets gimmes from MJ double teams.

It's a myth that Pip always guarded the top scorers, and btw Wade played great defense on par with Bron.

FACT is, Wade was already a legit MVP franchise HOF bound NBA Finals MVP 'BEFORE' Bron joined him.

People see through your misleading contextless cherrypicked stats.

[Lebron23]

He needs to catch up with Hakeem Olajuwon first


LeBron is top 2-3 while Hakeem is over Kobe who's not even top 11.

[Kenomax]

He needs to catch up with Hakeem Olajuwon first

:facepalm

[plowking]

Look i'm gonna post stats because that's all I know!!!

I didn't just post stats. I also stated that Pip was far more versatile, and able to take the load off MJ defensively, something Wade couldn't do, because he wasn't able to guard as many positions on the court as Pippen.


Wade played with a ball dominant player, pip usually shared running the offense with MJ. This reduces Wade's assist numbers.


Wade's usage during that time was 30.2%, and Pippen's was 24.6%...
You're wrong again. As usual.



Wade is miles ahead of creating his own shot, whereas Pip usually gets gimmes from MJ double teams.

And you claim I'm biased with a post like this. :oldlol:


It's a myth that Pip always guarded the top scorers, and btw Wade played great defense on par with Bron.

Ask any long time Heat fans who the best defender of the two was on the team. In fact, ask Heat fans what there opinion was about Wade and his defense in 2011. Especially getting back on defense after a failed offensive set.


FACT is, Wade was already a legit MVP franchise HOF bound NBA Finals MVP 'BEFORE' Bron joined him.

What has this got to do with when they actually played together? Pippen was a better player in total during the stretch of 8 years they won the 6 titles than Wade was in the 4 years the Heat competed.


People see through your misleading contextless cherrypicked stats.

Which bit of it was misleading? Is it misleading because it paints a picture you don't like.

And Wade was far more of a cherry picker and beneficiary of the best player on the team in terms of scoring than Pippen was. In 13 and 14, Wade benefitted more than anyone off Bron's presence.


Seriously dude. Just quit posting on the topic. You're as biased as they come, and the only thing you ever provide in these threads is non tangible nonsense.

[Sarcastic]

Scottie during period of winning 6 titles: 20/7/6 on 48%
Scottie in the playoffs during same time: 19/8/6 on 44%

Wade during in period of 4 finals together: 22/5/5 on 51%
During the playoffs in that same time: 20/5/4 on 47%

What does them achieving anything before have to do with anything? 6 peat Pippen was a better player than Wade during his years with Bron overall. Not to mention, Jordan had a guy that would guard the best guy for him every night. Something Wade didn't do for Bron.

2011 and 2012 Wade was better than any version of Pippen that MJ played with.

[PP34Deuce]

2011 and 2012 Wade was better than any version of Pippen that MJ played with.

Wade is a better player than Pippen. I do believe what makes the situation unique with lebron is his ability to be Pippen/Magic/and a little of Jordan at times.

That's what makes him the most unique player we have ever seen. People want to claim empty stats or cherry picked stats but this man has consistently been able to dominate the game with defense, the pass, the pace, and scoring.

It depends on what you value. If you have team ready with pieces, Jordan will be able to score and get you the championship.

If you have a mediocre team, Lebron automatically puts you in Conference finals territory.

[tpols]

Look i'm gonna post stats because that's all I know!!!

Wade played with a ball dominant player, pip usually shared running the offense with MJ. This reduces Wade's assist numbers.

Wade is miles ahead of creating his own shot, whereas Pip usually gets gimmes from MJ double teams.

It's a myth that Pip always guarded the top scorers, and btw Wade played great defense on par with Bron.

FACT is, Wade was already a legit MVP franchise HOF bound NBA Finals MVP 'BEFORE' Bron joined him.

People see through your misleading contextless cherrypicked stats.

they want you to give LeBron credit for reducing Wade's impact because he was such a poor fit with him.. while simultaneously discrediting Jordan for making scottie pippen pretty much the best he could be / operating at peak optimality.

this is what you have to deal with in these comparisons lol..

[Da_Realist]

Will it take 20 years for Lebron to "pass" MJ? 4 or 5 more years before we sit down, review the stats and finally declare Lebron the best player we've ever seen?

Such a simplistic mentality. Either he is the best or he's not.

[plowking]

they want you to give LeBron credit for reducing Wade's impact because he was such a poor fit with him.. while simultaneously discrediting Jordan for making scottie pippen pretty much the best he could be / operating at peak optimality.

this is what you have to deal with in these comparisons lol..

Interesting. Didn't know it was LeBron's fault Wade sat out games in the regular season and playoffs. Didn't know it was LeBron putting him on a minutes restriction.
Wade averaged 24.5ppg and 22.8ppg in the 2011 and 2012 playoffs. Is it LeBron's fault he suddenly averaged 15.9ppg and 17.8ppg after that?

I guess so. From your completely "unbiased" point of view. :oldlol:



2011 and 2012 Wade was better than any version of Pippen that MJ played with.

2011 is better than any version. 92 and 97 Pippen are quite comfortably as good as 2012 Wade at the very least. You could even argue 93 Pip.

[andgar923]

I didn't just post stats. I also stated that Pip was far more versatile, and able to take the load off MJ defensively, something Wade couldn't do, because he wasn't able to guard as many positions on the court as Pippen.



Wade's usage during that time was 30.2%, and Pippen's was 24.6%...
You're wrong again. As usual.




And you claim I'm biased with a post like this. :oldlol:



Ask any long time Heat fans who the best defender of the two was on the team. In fact, ask Heat fans what there opinion was about Wade and his defense in 2011. Especially getting back on defense after a failed offensive set.



What has this got to do with when they actually played together? Pippen was a better player in total during the stretch of 8 years they won the 6 titles than Wade was in the 4 years the Heat competed.



Which bit of it was misleading? Is it misleading because it paints a picture you don't like.

And Wade was far more of a cherry picker and beneficiary of the best player on the team in terms of scoring than Pippen was. In 13 and 14, Wade benefitted more than anyone off Bron's presence.


Seriously dude. Just quit posting on the topic. You're as biased as they come, and the only thing you ever provide in these threads is non tangible nonsense.
You be delusional.

[Hey Yo]

Scottie during period of winning 6 titles: 20/7/6 on 48%
Scottie in the playoffs during same time: 19/8/6 on 44%

Wade during in period of 4 finals together: 22/5/5 on 51%
During the playoffs in that same time: 20/5/4 on 47%

What does them achieving anything before have to do with anything? 6 peat Pippen was a better player than Wade during his years with Bron overall. Not to mention, Jordan had a guy that would guard the best guy for him every night. Something Wade didn't do for Bron.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Mike could concentrate and use a little more energy on offense, while Pip was asked to concentrate and use more energy on defense.

See the 91' Finals for a prime example.

[Hey Yo]

I didn't just post stats. I also stated that Pip was far more versatile, and able to take the load off MJ defensively, something Wade couldn't do, because he wasn't able to guard as many positions on the court as Pippen.



Wade's usage during that time was 30.2%, and Pippen's was 24.6%...
You're wrong again. As usual.




And you claim I'm biased with a post like this. :oldlol:



Ask any long time Heat fans who the best defender of the two was on the team. In fact, ask Heat fans what there opinion was about Wade and his defense in 2011. Especially getting back on defense after a failed offensive set.



What has this got to do with when they actually played together? Pippen was a better player in total during the stretch of 8 years they won the 6 titles than Wade was in the 4 years the Heat competed.



Which bit of it was misleading? Is it misleading because it paints a picture you don't like.

And Wade was far more of a cherry picker and beneficiary of the best player on the team in terms of scoring than Pippen was. In 13 and 14, Wade benefitted more than anyone off Bron's presence.


Seriously dude. Just quit posting on the topic. You're as biased as they come, and the only thing you ever provide in these threads is non tangible nonsense.
:applause:

Call the ambulance and make sure they have a body bag.

[Sarcastic]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Mike could concentrate and use a little more energy on offense, while Pip was asked to concentrate and use more energy on defense.

See the 91' Finals for a prime example.

You're pulling that straight from your ass. Jordan went balls to the wall on both sides of the court all the time. Just because they put the bigger body on Magic in one series doesn't mean he loafed it on D.

It would be like blaming Lebron for not guarding Dirk in 2011. Why would you put a smaller defender on a bigger guy?

[Hey Yo]

You're pulling that straight from your ass. Jordan went balls to the wall on both sides of the court all the time. Just because they put the bigger body on Magic in one series doesn't mean he loafed it on D.

It would be like blaming Lebron for not guarding Dirk in 2011. Why would you put a smaller defender on a bigger guy?
Didn't claim he did.

Can you read?

[tpols]

Wade averaged 24.5ppg and 22.8ppg in the 2011 and 2012 playoffs. Is it LeBron's fault he suddenly averaged 15.9ppg and 17.8ppg after that?

I guess so. From your completely "unbiased" point of view. :oldlol:



all four of those seasons were included in your little analysis.. the better question is why'd you take only pippens three best statistical years and compare them to all of Wade's ..? why are you including wade's not so great seasons, but not pippens as well? do you see how that is contradictory and misleading?

i hope so...

[Da_Realist]

Stop with the numbers and accolades. Stop denigrating teammates. Those are all sidebar issues. If Lebron was better than MJ, it wouldn't take 20 years for it to be obvious. The real question is... will LBJ have a better career? Y'all get the two confused.

Maybe, possibly by some metric LBJ can have a better career by the time he retires if longevity and accumulated stats is your thing but no he won't ever be a better player. We've already seen LBJ's best and he wasn't better then so how can he get better now on the downside of his career?

[andgar923]

Stop with the numbers and accolades. Stop denigrating teammates. Those are all sidebar issues. If Lebron was better than MJ, it wouldn't take 20 years for it to be obvious. The real question is... will LBJ have a better career? Y'all get the two confused.

Maybe, possibly by some metric LBJ can have a better career by the time he retires if longevity and accumulated stats is your thing but no he won't ever be a better player. We've already seen LBJ's best and he wasn't better then so how can he get better now on the downside of his career?
'But stats!

[plowking]

all four of those seasons were included in your little analysis.. the better question is why'd you take only pippens three best statistical years and compare them to all of Wade's ..? why are you including wade's not so great seasons, but not pippens as well? do you see how that is contradictory and misleading?

i hope so...

I included Pippen's stats for the period they won 6 finals. That is more seasons than what I included for Wade. :oldlol:
I included all of the seasons they competed for titles.

[plowking]

Stop with the numbers and accolades. Stop denigrating teammates. Those are all sidebar issues. If Lebron was better than MJ, it wouldn't take 20 years for it to be obvious. The real question is... will LBJ have a better career? Y'all get the two confused.

Maybe, possibly by some metric LBJ can have a better career by the time he retires if longevity and accumulated stats is your thing but no he won't ever be a better player. We've already seen LBJ's best and he wasn't better then so how can he get better now on the downside of his career?

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

[bdreason]

LeBron should focus on chasing Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem before he worries about MJ.

[Dray n Klay]

http://tinyurl.com/zmy7zhw


Interesting article about Michael Jordan written in 1993. It describes his racking up of gambling debts while on the golf course.

Apparently MJ crossed a convicted cocaine dealer called Slim Bouler and lost $57,000 to him over some bets, and he mentioned he overheard MJ mentioning point spreads over the phone.


The article also mentions how James R. Jordan (Michael's Father) plays into this.








"The surest and most vicious way to hurt Michael Jordan was always to hurt James Jordan.

James was Michael, without the disrespect for gravity. He was just as bald, charming, cocky, and effortlessly glib. He was not just Michael's dad but his best friend and business partner. He appeared with Michael in a likably naughty Hanes underwear commercial."

[Da_Realist]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

LOL

[fourkicks44]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

Dunno about all that...

'Arguably better'?

[Mr Feeny]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.I think peak for peak they were neck and neck but Lebron was just a tad behind in terms of PER and ws/48. Lebron's advantage will come in terms of cumulative totals such as VORP, WS, total playoff points, total playoff assists, total DPM etc.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron should focus on chasing Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem before he worries about MJ.

He's ahead of everyone there and is in a virtually dead heat with kareem for 2nd spot behind Jordan. He'll have a good chance of making an iron clad case for 2nd greatest all time within a couple of seasons.

[plowking]

LOL

Raw stats, advanced stats and now results support it. Even the eye test shows us he is a level above his peers.

He has been the best player in the league since he was 24. He is now 31.

You're response is what it is because you don't like the idea of it. Realistically though everything apart from your biased opinion tells us they are equals at the very worst.

[Mr Feeny]

Raw stats, advanced stats and now results support it. Even the eye test shows us he is a level above his peers.

He has been the best player in the league since he was 24. He is now 31.

You're response is what it is because you don't like the idea of it. Realistically though everything apart from your biased opinion tells us they are equals at the very worst.

That's the thing. Advanced stats don't really support it.
It will come down to peak vs career.
Lebron can make his case for a better overall career. He will end up with more points , rebounds and assists in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.
His cumulative stats will be better and he's already the all time leader in VORP and win shares which he'll extend. He'll end up with the highest DPM of all time.
He can't ever catch Jordan's PER or ws/48 in the regular season or the playoffs because he's still below him and will only decline from now on.

Having said that, were lebron to still stay healthy and play elite basketball for the next 3 year, he could end up with 35 k points, 9 k rebounds, 9 k assists by the time he's done. He could coast the rest of the way and get those numbers easily.

[GimmeThat]

like how David Stern changes the rule to improve league scoring.

now would be a good time to get my lawyer

[plowking]

That's the thing. Advanced stats don't really support it.
It will come down to peak vs career.

LeBron is at 27.7 PER for his career, and Jordan at 27.9 PER.
Both of their two highest seasons are at 31.7 and 31.6 PER.
Both have 4 seasons above 30 PER.
Bron has 4 playoff runs above 30 PER of at least 10 games, Jordan has 3.
Jordan has a 28.1 PER in his 6 finals runs, Bron has a 28.0 PER in his last 6.

Their numbers are similar all over in terms of PER. Jordan has slight edges in win shares, where as Bron is better in Box score +/- and VORP (even averages, not just total).


Lebron can make his case for a better overall career. He will end up with more points , rebounds and assists in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.
His cumulative stats will be better and he's already the all time leader in VORP and win shares which he'll extend. He'll end up with the highest DPM of all time.
He can't ever catch Jordan's PER or ws/48 in the regular season or the playoffs because he's still below him and will only decline from now on.

Well he did just put up a 30 PER in the playoffs, but generally he will decline in terms of those numbers simply because he has already played more playoff games. At the same time, Bron was leading his team to the finals at 22, when he realistically shouldn't have been close. Of course this negatively impacted his PER. Regardless, they are still close.


Having said that, were lebron to still stay healthy and play elite basketball for the next 3 year, he could end up with 35 k points, 9 k rebounds, 9 k assists by the time he's done. He could coast the rest of the way and get those numbers easily.

LeBron won't ever have the averages that Jordan will because he simply will play far more basketball than Jordan.
The point is, right now, there averages are comparable and almost identical impact wise, and this is right now when they have both played just about the same number of games.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron is at 27.7 PER for his career, and Jordan at 27.9 PER.
Both of their two highest seasons are at 31.7 and 31.6 PER.
Both have 4 seasons above 30 PER.
Bron has 4 playoff runs above 30 PER of at least 10 games, Jordan has 3.
Jordan has a 28.1 PER in his 6 finals runs, Bron has a 28.0 PER in his last 6.

Their numbers are similar all over in terms of PER. Jordan has slight edges in win shares, where as Bron is better in Box score +/- and VORP (even averages, not just total).



Well he did just put up a 30 PER in the playoffs, but generally he will decline in terms of those numbers simply because he has already played more playoff games. At the same time, Bron was leading his team to the finals at 22, when he realistically shouldn't have been close. Of course this negatively impacted his PER. Regardless, they are still close.



LeBron won't ever have the averages that Jordan will because he simply will play far more basketball than Jordan.
The point is, right now, there averages are comparable and almost identical impact wise, and this is right now when they have both played just about the same number of games.

Agree that they're not far off. Statistically speaking, Lebron james is the 2nd best player ever. But the difference - no matter how marginal - is relevant if the comparison is being made with the one guy who's ahead of him (if only marginally).

Lebron is not far behind in PER or ws/48 but he's still behind, which is the point if we're comparing peaks.
As far as saying that Lebron's averages won't be as good because he will play longer, I'd say that he's already behind now after 13 seasons of basketball. If Lebron were to stop playing NOW at the age of 31 before his decline (unlike Mike who played from 32-35 & 39-40), he'd still be behind.

This isn't an indictment of James. Like you said, he leads box score metrics and VORP. His cumulative stats will trump not only Jordan's but probably everybody else who's ever played.
At his peak, he is only SLIGHTLY behind the consensus GOAT while having better cumulative totals. That's more than praise worthy.

I'm just not sure there's a need to go a step too far and say he has a clear lead in advanced stats when he peaked a bit lower. Either way, we're talking about the guy who could go on to be GOAT or at worst 2nd place.

[andgar923]

*sigh* you guys just don't get it or refuse to grasp.

On paper, Bron appears to be on par with MJ. But he's nowhere near him when it comes to skills.

Not only that but Bron's stats don't hold the same value as MJ's.

Bron has never faced the same amount of double and triple team coverage as MJ.

He's never been played as physical with the same amount of consistency as MJ.

Shit, the defensive coverage Bron receives would be a cakewalk for MJ.

Bron is a great player but he falls short when one looks at the game and not the stats sheet and highlight clips.

[Kenomax]

*sigh* you guys just don't get it or refuse to grasp.

On paper, Bron appears to be on par with MJ. But he's nowhere near him when it comes to skills.

Not only that but Bron's stats don't hold the same value as MJ's.

Bron has never faced the same amount of double and triple team coverage as MJ.

He's never been played as physical with the same amount of consistency as MJ.

Shit, the defensive coverage Bron receives would be a cakewalk for MJ.

Bron is a great player but he falls short when one looks at the game and not the stats sheet and highlight clips.

Anyone is allowed to have his opinion, but none of this things you wrote can be proven. We should keep discussing facts rather than invented stories. :coleman:

[Lebron23]

I am very impressed with LeBron's statements. Some guys got lazy after they won their 3rd NBA title/3rd finals MVP.

Lebron wants to surpass MJ. I smell another regular season MVP Award.

[Da_Realist]

Deadly post game
Deadly midrange
Unguardable fadeaway
Explosive first step
Unmatched creativity around the basket
Fearless
Clutch
Ultra-competitive
Supremely athletic yet technically flawless
Reliable jumpshot
Ballhawk
Deadly on-ball defender
Dominant offensively on-ball and off-ball

This pretty much sums up MJ's game without ever mentioning stats, accolades, rings, etc.

What is deadly (a 10) about Lebron's game? Or is he a 7 or 8 in everything?

[NBAGOAT]

Deadly post game
Deadly midrange
Unguardable fadeaway
Explosive first step
Unmatched creativity around the basket
Fearless
Clutch
Ultra-competitive
Supremely athletic yet technically flawless
Reliable jumpshot
Ballhawk
Deadly on-ball defender
Dominant offensively on-ball and off-ball

This pretty much sums up MJ's game without ever mentioning stats, accolades, rings, etc.

What is deadly (a 10) about Lebron's game? Or is he a 7 or 8 in everything?

finishing ability, raw strength/power, passing/playmaking, open court ability, versatility on defense just to name the main ones. He definitely has areas he's a 10 in unless you're giving 10's in a category to only 1 or 2 guys.

[BlueandGold]

So Kobe was an actor too? :lol
It's not the players fault, just like it's not Lebron's.

Everyone knows the 2010 finals was rigged to go 7 games. This last one I'm not sure but the Cavs got some calls to go their way down 3-1. If anything blame Silver snake. And as far as getting 6 rings.. it's possible. Jordan won his last 3 after 30 (although he got amazing help and coaching).

The one area Lebron absolutely can't catch up is his finals record.. which is still 3-7, or whatever it is, as well as Jordan's ability to make the shot when EVERYTHING was on the line. I think that's the difference between these two recent generations.. you just have to commend someone who wants that level of pressure put on them versus someone who at times seems to shy away from it.

[Da_Realist]

He definitely has areas he's a 10 in unless you're giving 10's in a category to only 1 or 2 guys.

A 10 means no one is better. Maybe some others are on par but a case can be made that no one in a reasonable comparison is clearly better.

[HurricaneKid]

*sigh* you guys just don't get it or refuse to grasp.

On paper, Bron appears to be on par with MJ. But he's nowhere near him when it comes to skills.

Not only that but Bron's stats don't hold the same value as MJ's.

Bron has never faced the same amount of double and triple team coverage as MJ.

He's never been played as physical with the same amount of consistency as MJ.

Shit, the defensive coverage Bron receives would be a cakewalk for MJ.

Bron is a great player but he falls short when one looks at the game and not the stats sheet and highlight clips.

This is an INCREDIBLY absurd post.

In order for teams to double MJ they literally had to almost announce that they were doubling him, were not permitted to not come all the way over to double or to veer of course or it would have been illegal defense. Defenses were forced to defend Rodman at the 3 pt line or it would have been illegal defense. The league refused to allow defenses to defend because they knew it would impact their stars in an enormous way. Now a days you see guys like Iggy winning FMVP because defenses would prefer to buttress key players with their defensive resources rather than defend lesser offensive players. Its a completely different game now and the elite players have absolutely had their contributions minimized by defenses that can stop them if it wants to. That just wasn't the case in Jordan's day.

MJ absolutely had a bigger impact. But a big portion of that was the age he played in. MJs impact would be far less today than it was when defenses weren't permitted to defend him. ISO ball is now the most inefficient brand of basketball possible. Back then that's almost exclusively what was played.

[Da_Realist]

This is an INCREDIBLY absurd post.

In order for teams to double MJ they literally had to almost announce that they were doubling him, were not permitted to not come all the way over to double or to veer of course or it would have been illegal defense. Defenses were forced to defend Rodman at the 3 pt line or it would have been illegal defense. The league refused to allow defenses to defend because they knew it would impact their stars in an enormous way. Now a days you see guys like Iggy winning FMVP because defenses would prefer to buttress key players with their defensive resources rather than defend lesser offensive players. Its a completely different game now and the elite players have absolutely had their contributions minimized by defenses that can stop them if it wants to. That just wasn't the case in Jordan's day.

MJ absolutely had a bigger impact. But a big portion of that was the age he played in. MJs impact would be far less today than it was when defenses weren't permitted to defend him. ISO ball is now the most inefficient brand of basketball possible. Back then that's almost exclusively what was played.

MJ having less impact today? No credible person that has played or watched any basketball more than 6 months would agree with you.

You just say whatever you want on the internet...

[HurricaneKid]

MJ having less impact today? No credible person that has played or watched any basketball more than 6 months would agree with you.

You just say whatever you want on the internet...

I have played, coached, and officiated at higher levels than 99% of this board. And almost certainly you.

If you believe that it was easier to score with Rodman's defender stuck on him above the break at the 3 point line than helping defend the drive at a strong side help position, there is simply no helping you.

Which comes as no real shock.

But keeping spewing stupid on the internet.

[Da_Realist]

I have played, coached, and officiated at higher levels than 99% of this board. And almost certainly you.

If you believe that it was easier to score with Rodman's defender stuck on him above the break at the 3 point line than helping defend the drive at a strong side help position, there is simply no helping you.

Which comes as no real shock.

But keeping spewing stupid on the internet.

Yeah, right :rolleyes:

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah, right :rolleyes:

Answer me this quick question then.

If Rodman was at the right wing in 96 at the 3 pt line where was his defender? If Rodman were at the right wing today at the 3 pt line, where would his defender be?

[Da_Realist]

Answer me this quick question then.

If Rodman was at the right wing in 96 at the 3 pt line where was his defender? If Rodman were at the right wing today at the 3 pt line, where would his defender be?

Why would Rodman spend so much time at the 3 pt line for it to matter?

[Sarcastic]

Why would Rodman spend so much time at the 3 pt line for it to matter?

Because Steve Kerr was fighting for post position.

[HurricaneKid]

Why would Rodman spend so much time at the 3 pt line for it to matter?

So you never watched basketball in the 90s. Good to know.

Rodman spent time at the 3 point line because back then his defender was required to be above the FT line on the side of the floor his man was on. So Rodman at the 3 pt line meant a big was at least 18 feet from the basket. If he wanted to double team a player it HAD to be the player with the ball and he had to go directly to him.

That's pretty much ALL the Jazz did was run Stockton/Malone PNRs with Hornecek filling the void should a double ever occur.

The game is completely different. Strategically its far beyond even checkers to chess. Keep in mind, before Bird/Magic the NBA Finals were on tape delay. The NBA WANTED superstars and making it impossible for defenses to stop its best players was built into the rules.

[Kenomax]

MJ having less impact today? No credible person that has played or watched any basketball more than 6 months would agree with you.

You just say whatever you want on the internet...

Why is that? I think It's obvious league is at completely different level now and Jordan wouldn't be even close to stats, impact he had in his era.

[andgar923]

This is an INCREDIBLY absurd post.

In order for teams to double MJ they literally had to almost announce that they were doubling him, were not permitted to not come all the way over to double or to veer of course or it would have been illegal defense. Defenses were forced to defend Rodman at the 3 pt line or it would have been illegal defense. The league refused to allow defenses to defend because they knew it would impact their stars in an enormous way. Now a days you see guys like Iggy winning FMVP because defenses would prefer to buttress key players with their defensive resources rather than defend lesser offensive players. Its a completely different game now and the elite players have absolutely had their contributions minimized by defenses that can stop them if it wants to. That just wasn't the case in Jordan's day.

MJ absolutely had a bigger impact. But a big portion of that was the age he played in. MJs impact would be far less today than it was when defenses weren't permitted to defend him. ISO ball is now the most inefficient brand of basketball possible. Back then that's almost exclusively what was played.
Do you even know what you're typing?

This is some of the most idiotic shit attempting to be a serious post I've seen in a long time.

Le Bron's game is entirely ISO
Harden's game is entirely ISO
Westbrook's game is entirely ISO

The list goes on and on and on and on.

MJ actually did most of his damage OFF-the ball coming off screens and quick attacks.

Only an idiot would believe otherwise.

You'll only get exposed by people that are actually old enough to understand the game if you keep fakin the funk.

[3ball]

Le Bron's game is entirely ISO
Harden's game is entirely ISO
Westbrook's game is entirely ISO

The list goes on and on and on and on.

MJ actually did most of his damage OFF-the ball coming off screens and quick attacks.



Exactly - Lebron isolated the entire 2015 Finals, and since he's a bad isolation player with no moves and horrible jumper, he only shot 39.8%


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1e79dc71a542600a777d78638e6a7e69.gif



That shit is ugly af - i don't know how he's compared to Jordan.

Of course, Lebron enjoys SPACING, so help defenders on his iso's were further away than Jordan's help defenders were - that's obvious from the gifs

[Hey Yo]

That was James' 5th Finals appearance in a row and had to carry his team even more due to injuries. Only the 2nd player in NBA history receive FMVP votes in a losing cause.

MJ never played in 5 straight Finals cause he quit instead of challenging himself to do so.....twice.

[HurricaneKid]

Do you even know what you're typing?

This is some of the most idiotic shit attempting to be a serious post I've seen in a long time.

Le Bron's game is entirely ISO
Harden's game is entirely ISO
Westbrook's game is entirely ISO

The list goes on and on and on and on.

MJ actually did most of his damage OFF-the ball coming off screens and quick attacks.

Only an idiot would believe otherwise.

You'll only get exposed by people that are actually old enough to understand the game if you keep fakin the funk.

I'm amazed you were able to type so many words with what is clearly an IQ in the 40s. Don't bother responding. I refuse to risk catching stupidity from you and are placing you on ignore.

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/QGmEGPwuvIs9i/giphy.gif


Rodman spent time at the 3 point line because back then his defender was required to be above the FT line



That's the same as today's defender - when an offensive player is behind the 3-point line, their defender must stay above the foul line to abide by defensive 3 seconds.

Today's defender plays exactly the same way when their man is behind the 3-point line as Rodman in the gif above - the defender hovers at or above the FT line to abide by defensive 3 seconds.






So Rodman at the 3 pt line meant a big was at least 18 feet from the basket.



Again, that's the same as today's defender, who stays above the foul line to abide by defensive 3 seconds.

So defenders position themselves the same way in both eras when their man is BEHIND the 3-point line.

Now when a defender's man is INSIDE the 3-point line but above the foul line, defenders in previous eras had the advantage, since they could paint camp indefinitely inside the dotted line area, while today's defenders only have the aforementioned 3 seconds.. Here's an example (https://media.giphy.com/media/bOdfXia9hYQYo/giphy.gif) of Adrian Dantley paint-camping inside the dotted line area, and here's the rule allowing him to do so from NBA.com:


d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html





If he wanted to double team a player it HAD to be the player with the ball and he had to go directly to him.


In previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting left defenders all bunched up together in close proximity, so double-teaming only required taking a step or two over, like Bill Walton in this example (https://media.giphy.com/media/10RuiINsEB5SHm/giphy.gif).

But in today's game, defenders are spaced out by 3-pointers - this necessitates shadowing and halfway double-teaming so defenders can stand in the same spots that the bunched-up defenders of previous eras were already standing.

Now let's get back to your point original point about defenders (in both eras) standing above the FT line to guard the 3-point line - the lack of 3-point shooting in previous eras meant that defenders RARELY had to stand above the foul line and could remain in the paint instead.. The packed paints and legal hand-checking made penetration more difficult back then, which is why the league stated that easier penetration was the primary objective (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) of the new rules introduced in 2005.