Video PROOF LeBron James is overrated as f*ck

[andgar923]

I will concede he's an all time great player, but his game (skill set) is overrated. Overrated does not mean he's not good, overrated means that he's not as good as his stats or the praise indicate.

He is not in the same league as Bird, Magic or even MJ as a passer. He's not that great at setting up an offense (I think Kobe might be better)
He is horrible at moving without the ball.
He has footwork issues that cause him to lose his balance, get outta control, and jump awkwardly.
He takes too long to read and react.
He's passive by nature and this causes the offense he runs to suffer as a result.

This video will not end the debate, it isn't the end all. I think this only scratches the surface on what some of us have been stating for eons. I can probably do this for 90% of his games (no joke).

In this video I included 98% of the time he was on the floor offensively (I think I deleted 1 or 2 moments when he was on, but they weren't important.. A fast break I believe... Im new with this software). All of the clips are from one single game, not a compilation of a series.

I also did not know exactly what to expect. I had an idea of how he played but as I analyzed the video I kept noticing more and more flaws in his game, I noticed more open lanes.


I also selected this game because it was the most accessible. I plan on making a few more in the near future (I hope to get better at using this software... Give me a break :( ) My ultimate video will be a video that shows side by side every single possession between MJ and Bron, or Kobe and Bron, or Kobe and MJ. Every decision they make will be analyzed, because it is ultimately the decisions that they make that matter. What if Bron decided to cross left instead of right? What if he decided to take an extra dribble and post up Curry? What if he decided to cut to the hole and move without the ball instead of standing in a corner?

Too much rambling here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OLwlN-ZWA

NOTE: Im still new at this software, so I didn't annotate or highlight certain things because I lost track of shit. But always keep in mind how the lanes are usually open. The lanes are wide open almost every possession, the players usually don't even have a foot inside the paint (it's usually nearby).

I like LeBron, but watching a game video and analyzing it is different than watching it live. You notice small flaws in his game that one wouldn't notice during a live game or highlight reel.

He lacks offensive moves, he has no footowork, no balance, but his size and athleticism are too much to handle at times.

[Trollsmasher]

meltdown

[aj1987]

I He is not in the same league as Bird, Magic or even MJ as a passer. He's not that great at setting up an offense (I think Kobe might be better)

You should literally NEVER talk about basketball ever again. In fact you should just stop watching it all together, because even casual fans aren't this retarded.

That video...tried watching it. Couldn't get past minute 2. Do you even know how basketball works? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

The meltdown is because of this thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415784

No it isn't fakkit

[ShawkFactory]

I commend the analysis.

But I don't think anyone remotely reasonable really overrates his skillset.

It's about impacting the game for some, and his size and athleticism can give him a very similar, or ever greater, overall impact that someone far more 'skilled' in the sense that you're talking.

So if you're ranking players based solely on skill then you have a point. If you rate on overall impact on the game you may need to dig a little deeper.

And in the past year or so his off ball game has improved tremendously. Opportune cuts to the basket, hitting open jumpers, pick and roll, and overall allowing his teammates more space to operate...all much better. If you're talking 2010 Bron that argument holds more weight.

[feyki]

Everybody knows , he has poor off ball play and footwork . But this doesn't mean he's overrated . You did underrate his passing too . I think Bird was better passer too , but he's better passer than Kobe for sure . Comparing to Magic ? Only Stockton and Nash were better passer than Magic in history .

[andgar923]

You should literally NEVER talk about basketball ever again. In fact you should just stop watching it all together, because even casual fans aren't this retarded.

That video...tried watching it. Couldn't get past minute 2. Do you even know how basketball works? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Do YOU know how basketball works?

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.

Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.

Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.

Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.

YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.

We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.

He's the floor captain so he should manage and tell people where to go and when to be there. Magic could be seen talking and pointing the entire game, Bird didn't waste much time in getting the offense running, and MJ created something out of nothing without wasting much time.

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.

So again....do YOU know how basketball works?

[andgar923]

I commend the analysis.

But I don't think anyone remotely reasonable really overrates his skillset.

It's about impacting the game for some, and his size and athleticism can give him a very similar, or ever greater, overall impact that someone far more 'skilled' in the sense that you're talking.

So if you're ranking players based solely on skill then you have a point. If you rate on overall impact on the game you may need to dig a little deeper.

And in the past year or so his off ball game has improved tremendously. Opportune cuts to the basket, hitting open jumpers, pick and roll, and overall allowing his teammates more space to operate...all much better. If you're talking 2010 Bron that argument holds more weight.

I agree with your analysis on his impact.

I never downplayed his impact and why that is. I also think that rating a player simply based on 'skill' can be an issue.

But when we're dealing with the elite of the elite, and we're comparing stats and praising players for their stats and stating that player A is better than player B then I think it's fair to look at the entire picture. I feel it's fair to understand context.

I understand some will argue "Shaq has impact is he more skilled than Nash?" Well... For his size (and even then) Shaq was absolutely skilled. He could read the defense, move without the ball, pass as good as some point guards, set up an offense as good as some of the best point guards, could dribble, had different moves, great footwork etc.etc. His accomplishments did not come as a result of him simply being big, his impact is a direct result of elite skill. And Im very positive that the same can be said about the top 50 players.

But what Im doing is grading Bron on a curb.

Because we have to, if he's to be compared to his peers... The top 10 players of all time.

Naturally if I was to grade him on the same curb as Otis Thorpe things would be different. His grade would be significantly higher, but since we're comparing him to Kobe and such, his grade drops in some aspects. Im trying to find the balance between impact and skill I suppose.

I guess it depends on one's criteria and how much weight they add to the skill vs impact debate.

Having said all this, I still think he's top 15 or so all things factored. The stats are there, but some of the substance is lacking when compared to his peers.

[Cone]

can OP commit suicide?

please, and thanks.

[aj1987]

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.
Exactly. LeBron does this better than anyone not named CP3 in the league.


Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.
Did you miss last years Finals? LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.


Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.
LeBron has probably only one of those per game.


Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.
Holy ****. What are you even watching, dude? Are you sure that you're watching the same games as the rest of the world? You might be probably one of 3-4 people in the world, who thinks that Kobe is better than LeBron. Heck, when it comes to LeBron vs Bird, even Bird's biggest stan, ShaqIsGOAT, would admit that they're on the same tier as playmakers and passers. There's a reason as to why even the '09 and '10 teams were elite offensive teams with shitty offensive players.


YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.
We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.
Again, almost all of LeBron's teammates have some of their most efficient seasons WITH LeBron. We've seen that with Wade, Bosh, Irving, TT, Mo, etc.. LeBron gets them better shots. It's a FACT. It's also pretty much well known that LeBron doesn't really like a run and gun offense. He prefers slow paced low scoring games, compared to high paced high scoring games.

Also those Heat teams, #3, #2, #8, and #5 offenses. They were extremely efficient offensively.


I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.
Magic, MJ, and Bird had ATG low post and elite midrange players, coupled with a bunch of shooters as well. Almost all their teams had that. When was the last time LeBron played with an elite low post player? The times he has had good offensive weapons (and even when he didn't), he led teams to being among the best in the league.


So again....do YOU know how basketball works?
About a billion times better than you. Again, there's a reason as to why almost every coach, player (current and ex), analyst, etc. call LeBron one of the greatest playmakers and passers.

I still can't believe that you actually said Kobe's a better playmaker than LeBron. Holy ****!
:facepalm

[andgar923]

In all fairness, I will make a video on some of his better games.

On paper this game appeared to be a great game, but once you look closer it aint so sweet. But Im sure we can probably say the same about some of MJ, Kobe's games as well.

Point is

STATS CAN BE MISLEADING

My fav Kobe games are when he only scores 20 points, gets 7 assists but plays an overall beautiful game. I cringe at Kobe's scoring outbursts because they're usually ugly filled with many bad decisions which also expose some of his shortcomings.

I will try to get better using this software so I can make other vids. You guys like cats?

[andgar923]

Exactly. LeBron does this better than anyone not named CP3 in the league.


Did you miss last years Finals? LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.


LeBron has probably only one of those per game.


Holy ****. What are you even watching, dude? Are you sure that you're watching the same games as the rest of the world? You might be probably one of 3-4 people in the world, who thinks that Kobe is better than LeBron. Heck, when it comes to LeBron vs Bird, even Bird's biggest stan, ShaqIsGOAT, would admit that they're on the same tier as playmakers and passers. There's a reason as to why even the '09 and '10 teams were elite offensive teams with shitty offensive players.


Again, almost all of LeBron's teammates have some of their most efficient seasons WITH LeBron. We've seen that with Wade, Bosh, Irving, TT, Mo, etc.. LeBron gets them better shots. It's a FACT. It's also pretty much well known that LeBron doesn't really like a run and gun offense. He prefers slow paced low scoring games, compared to high paced high scoring games.

Also those Heat teams, #3, #2, #8, and #5 offenses. They were extremely efficient offensively.


Magic, MJ, and Bird had ATG low post and elite midrange players, coupled with a bunch of shooters as well. Almost all their teams had that. When was the last time LeBron played with an elite low post player? The times he has had good offensive weapons (and even when he didn't), he led teams to being among the best in the league.


About a billion times better than you. Again, there's a reason as to why almost every coach, player (current and ex), analyst, etc. call LeBron one of the greatest playmakers and passers.

I still can't believe that you actually said Kobe's a better playmaker than LeBron. Holy ****!
:facepalm


You clearly didn't watch the video and you've clearly never saw him play.

[NuggetsFan]

Do YOU know how basketball works?

Setting up an offense isn't simply about being WILLING to pass, it's about getting the right players at the right location, finding angles to set them up, making passes that are in their comfort zone, waiting for the right time to pass the ball and not simply giving them the ball as soon as they're open or you get in trouble.

Setting up an offense requires proper clock management and the ability to create for yourself and others once the original set is defended properly.

Setting up an offense also isn't about making no-look fancy passes, behind the back lobs or needle thin between defenders passes.

Lebron isn't as great at clock management, he's not as great at getting players in the right spot, he's not as great at creating when the plays break down, he's not as good at timing, he's not as good at finding angles to properly feed the player, he's not as great as the players I mentioned and Im not so sure he's as good as Kobe either.

YES Bron is a more WILLING passer, but Kobe appears to be better at getting players into position when he is running plays. He's easily better at creating for himself or others. Some of the other aspects can be harder to argue for, but Kobe does have some key advantages over Bron when it comes to setting up an offense.

We can go back to Bron's days as a Heat player if you'd like, and you'll see how he had issues back then as well. Players were usually standing still out of position, poor shot clock management, there's a reason they called it 'LeBron Ball' because he's ball dominant and takes too long setting up an offense.

He's the floor captain so he should manage and tell people where to go and when to be there. Magic could be seen talking and pointing the entire game, Bird didn't waste much time in getting the offense running, and MJ created something out of nothing without wasting much time.

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense, and there are several reasons why that is and I just listed some of them.

So again....do YOU know how basketball works?

Every coach has a different offense, prefers to play at a different pace. Alot of what your saying is subjective and there's no right or wrong. Just different Clock management differs for everybody. LeBron because of a combination of his willing to pass, basketball IQ, lack of talent among teammates developed "LeBron ball" early in his career. He had alot of success with it so it tends to get used quite frequently.

I watched a few minutes of the video and there's a play where you type why doesn't he finish at the rim!?! he has Steph Curry or whatever on him. That's a designed play. A pretty popular one. Penetrate the lane, kick it to the corner, swing the ball and get an open look. K.Love got an amazing look from 3 because of LeBron's penetration and willingness to pass. Argue that the 3 ball is destroying the game, or you prefer play in than paint but saying that play was a mistake? that's a pretty simple play to read. Your wanting him to do things that he's never asked to do. He'll never move great without the ball because coaches, teammates etc. will always want the ball in his hands. He waits long in the post for his guys to move, someone to cut, or for him to eventually attack. When he catches the ball in the post it isn't an automatic go out and score situation. You have to factor in getting players into rhythm, spreading the ball around etc. LeBron is basically a coach on the floor with a gameplan. He's kinda like what Phil Jackson was to Kobe/Jordan. Like all coaches he deff makes mistakes. His biggest one occasionally being a mental midget. I think guys like Lue help because they take some of the control back from LeBron. Same with Irving taking over.

More than 1 or 2 right ways to play basketball. There's multiple ways to do things that changes depending on your personnel and opponent. For Cleveland vs GS you could tell they were afraid of GS's explosive offensive and how they can catch fire. LeBron/Irving at times were just grinding them down and played slow.

[ShawkFactory]

I agree with your analysis on his impact.

I never downplayed his impact and why that is. I also think that rating a player simply based on 'skill' can be an issue.

But when we're dealing with the elite of the elite, and we're comparing stats and praising players for their stats and stating that player A is better than player B then I think it's fair to look at the entire picture. I feel it's fair to understand context.

I understand some will argue "Shaq has impact is he more skilled than Nash?" Well... For his size (and even then) Shaq was absolutely skilled. He could read the defense, move without the ball, pass as good as some point guards, set up an offense as good as some of the best point guards, could dribble, had different moves, great footwork etc.etc. His accomplishments did not come as a result of him simply being big, his impact is a direct result of elite skill. And Im very positive that the same can be said about the top 50 players.

But what Im doing is grading Bron on a curb.

Because we have to, if he's to be compared to his peers... The top 10 players of all time.

Naturally if I was to grade him on the same curb as Otis Thorpe things would be different. His grade would be significantly higher, but since we're comparing him to Kobe and such, his grade drops in some aspects. Im trying to find the balance between impact and skill I suppose.

I guess it depends on one's criteria and how much weight they add to the skill vs impact debate.

Having said all this, I still think he's top 15 or so all things factored. The stats are there, but some of the substance is lacking when compared to his peers.
Regarding your point on shaq:

Sure, he was a great passer for a big man. But you compared Lebrons passing to the likes of Bird, magic, and Jordan...3 of the GOATs and two of which were guards. Was shaq a better passer than the other ATG big men? Kareem maybe?

Was his footwork better than guy around his spot in the top 10, particularly big men? Perhaps Russell? Idk enough about him to honestly be able to chime in there.

What truly puts shaq there is his size and athleticism. I don't think he was any better skill wise than several players generally ranked lower than him on the list (guys like Barkley, Dirk, Malone, and McHale).

Lebron IS a fantastic passer, and despite lacking time management that you spoke of, he IS excellent at allowing teammates to get into a rhythm due to his willingness and understated ability to continue feeding them in any situation should he recognize that they may be feeling it.

No, he doesn't have the passing substance of a guy like magic, even tho some people like to compare them. But he has it over his positional contemporaries. Not to mention that dominating athleticism and ability to turn defense into offense quicker than almost anyone ever.

I guess I see your point tho. Some people overrate him (#3 all time). But putting him in that tier with guys like shaq, Kobe, and Duncan isn't. Calling him top 10 certainly isn't either considering he's 31 and currently defending a championship. We shall see how his skillset evolves as he gets even older. It's already miles different than it was 5 years ago.

[aj1987]

You clearly didn't watch the video and you've clearly never saw him play.
I did and when I initially said I stopped at the two minute mark, I was actually wrong. I closed the tab after the play that, NuggetsFan above me, is talking about. That's a fairly standard and basic basketball play. I understand though. You tried to pull a Coach Nick and failed worse than he usually does.

If you're wondering why LeBron doesn't score like MJ, pass like Magic, have footwork like Hakeem, play off-ball like Miller, rebound like Wilt, defend like Russell, etc., literally no one in the history of the sport could.

[bdreason]

I imagine the highlight videos of LeBron once he's retired. Endless images of wide-open transition dunks and drive-and-kick assists.

[aj1987]

I imagine the highlight videos of LeBron once he's retired. Endless images of wide-open transition dunks and drive-and-kick assists.
This will probably be in there somewhere as well. :cheers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIZqOTIbWDg&spfreload=10

[andgar923]

Every coach has a different offense, prefers to play at a different pace. Alot of what your saying is subjective and there's no right or wrong. Just different Clock management differs for everybody. LeBron because of a combination of his willing to pass, basketball IQ, lack of talent among teammates developed "LeBron ball" early in his career. He had alot of success with it so it tends to get used quite frequently.

I watched a few minutes of the video and there's a play where you type why doesn't he finish at the rim!?! he has Steph Curry or whatever on him. That's a designed play. A pretty popular one. Penetrate the lane, kick it to the corner, swing the ball and get an open look. K.Love got an amazing look from 3 because of LeBron's penetration and willingness to pass. Argue that the 3 ball is destroying the game, or you prefer play in than paint but saying that play was a mistake? that's a pretty simple play to read. Your wanting him to do things that he's never asked to do. He'll never move great without the ball because coaches, teammates etc. will always want the ball in his hands. He waits long in the post for his guys to move, someone to cut, or for him to eventually attack. When he catches the ball in the post it isn't an automatic go out and score situation. You have to factor in getting players into rhythm, spreading the ball around etc. LeBron is basically a coach on the floor with a gameplan. He's kinda like what Phil Jackson was to Kobe/Jordan. Like all coaches he deff makes mistakes. His biggest one occasionally being a mental midget. I think guys like Lue help because they take some of the control back from LeBron. Same with Irving taking over.

More than 1 or 2 right ways to play basketball. There's multiple ways to do things that changes depending on your personnel and opponent. For Cleveland vs GS you could tell they were afraid of GS's explosive offensive and how they can catch fire. LeBron/Irving at times were just grinding them down and played slow.

I actually agree with everything you posted (no lie).

While I was editing some of these I thought some of the same at times.

Was that part of a designed play?
Was it Bron's job to stand there?

But c'mon... Even considering some of those factors it's plain as day that the vast majority of what I pointed out was Bron simply lacking footwork, off the ball movement capabilities, aggressiveness, bad post up, bad clock management, etc.

Im not perfect so Im sure a few of the annotations were wrong, but one is being too easy on him and defending him for the sake of defending him for the bulk of what I criticized him for.

Hell there are some instances that one can argue "Why didn't he point that out" but I thought maybe it was by design.

Anyway, thanks for watching and your input, it's respectable but still sounds like an excuse for his weaknesses.

[Kenomax]

Terrible topic, first few lines proved OP has no idea what he's talking about, just the next blind hater :lol

[aj1987]

I actually agree with everything you posted (no lie).

While I was editing some of these I thought some of the same at times.

Was that part of a designed play?
Was it Bron's job to stand there?

But c'mon... Even considering some of those factors it's plain as day that the vast majority of what I pointed out was Bron simply lacking footwork, off the ball movement capabilities, aggressiveness, bad post up, bad clock management, etc.

Im not perfect so Im sure a few of the annotations were wrong, but one is being too easy on him and defending him for the sake of defending him for the bulk of what I criticized him for.

Hell there are some instances that one can argue "Why didn't he point that out" but I thought maybe it was by design.

Anyway, thanks for watching and your input, it's respectable but still sounds like an excuse for his weaknesses.
You've basically been pointing out 5 of his "faults".

1. Footwork - Yeah, it's no secret that LeBron has bad footwork, but he has improved massively (not saying that he has very good footwork). His footwork is is almost never a liability for him.

2. Off-Ball - True again. He was terrible in '11, and again, he has improved since. Part of it has to do with him never actually playing with a good PG or with a good coach, who coached a proper offense.

3. Aggressiveness - :biggums:

4. Postup - Since '12, LeBron has been putting up elite post scoring numbers. You might want to look that up.

5. Bad Clock Management - :biggums:

[andgar923]

I did and when I initially said I stopped at the two minute mark, I was actually wrong. I closed the tab after the play that, NuggetsFan above me, is talking about. That's a fairly standard and basic basketball play. I understand though. You tried to pull a Coach Nick and failed worse than he usually does.

If you're wondering why LeBron doesn't score like MJ, pass like Magic, have footwork like Hakeem, play off-ball like Miller, rebound like Wilt, defend like Russell, etc., literally no one in the history of the sport could.

Nobody is asking him to be exactly like them.

But there are a number of instances in which one is left scratching their heads.

Me cursing on the annotations wasn't done for shits and giggles, I sat there screaming at the screen (in my head... And a few times out loud), just as I do in real life.

I mean, CUT!! CUT TO THE GOD DAMN BASKET!!!

My lord, he always stands in the perimeter. YES I understand that at times the plays call for him to clear out. But when you're man is f(skin trapped by 3 people you chose to stand there? :rant

F*ck a play, you have a 6 foot tall 180 pound defender IN THE POST... SHOOT OVER HIM!!! I highly doubt any coach would have a fit if he shot in that instance instead of throwing a cross court pass to a 3pt shooter.

And who can with a straight face argue why he doesn't finish strong? Is the play not intended for him to drive and go strong?

I understand some plays are drive and kicks, but the 'drive' is usually the first option, the 'kick' is usually the second, why go up so soft and not attempt to draw a foul on a defender that is in every way inferior? There was a number of times in which he was at the f*ckin rim and he didn't even attempt, he simply kicked it out immediately. If that was Delly driving and not attempting to go hard while at the rim people would be asking for his head for being soft and not trying to finish. The greatest finisher of all time and you got him passing to a 3pt shooter when you have Curry on you?

Even Mark Jackson was calling him out for being soft, even though he was attacking the previous game.

[Jameerthefear]

i seriously question whether or not OP understands what help defense is

[andgar923]

You've basically been pointing out 5 of his "faults".

1. Footwork - Yeah, it's no secret that LeBron has bad footwork, but he has improved massively (not saying that he has very good footwork). His footwork is is almost never a liability for him.

2. Off-Ball - True again. He was terrible in '11, and again, he has improved since. Part of it has to do with him never actually playing with a good PG or with a good coach, who coached a proper offense.

3. Aggressiveness - :biggums:

4. Postup - Since '12, LeBron has been putting up elite post scoring numbers. You might want to look that up.

5. Bad Clock Management - :biggums:

The bullshit excuses.

Did Kobe play with a great point guard?
MJ?

Cut the bullshit excuse, if he was so great he wouldn't need a great point guard to set him up. His off the ball movement would make it easy for any point guard to get him the ball. If he was so great at posting up a blind point guard would be able to feed him inside at any time.

The commentators were criticizing his lack of aggressiveness and shot clock management as well, I left it on the video. And it hasn't been the first or 2nd or 3rd time I've heard that mentioned about him.

Like I mentioned, I can make tons of more vids showing the same thing without even trying to look hard for it.

Make all the excuses you guys want, it doesn't change shit.

LMAO @ him not having a good point guard or post player...:roll: :roll:

[aj1987]

why go up so soft and not attempt to draw a foul on a defender that is in every way inferior?
Since NuggetsFan pretty much explained the rest, I omitted it.

#1 - LeBron is 6'8" and 250+.
#2 - Curry is 6'3" and probably ~200.

What do you think the refs are going to call, if there's contact and Curry falls down, while LeBron is charging at the rim? Not to mention Festus and Green coming in to help out. From your video:

https://s32.postimg.org/wrl4mczgl/Screen_Shot_2016_08_03_at_2_20_55_AM.png


With LeBron driving in, Barnes, Festus, and Green are cheating off their assignments and Irving is WIDE open in the corner. You give Irving that shot 100/100 times.

https://s32.postimg.org/5i9r7uydh/Screen_Shot_2016_08_03_at_2_21_19_AM.png

In that clip, Green starts to recover quickly, but Love is still WIDE open.

https://s32.postimg.org/ezxi90dpx/Screen_Shot_2016_08_03_at_2_25_56_AM.png

Irving could've taken that shot, but Love was just on an island. I'm not exaggerating when I say that Love was on an island.

https://s32.postimg.org/ys8zy9v79/Screen_Shot_2016_08_03_at_2_27_44_AM.png

That was the perfect play in that scenario. Any coach would want him players to take a wide open shot over a contested one.


The bullshit excuses.

Did Kobe play with a great point guard?
MJ?
No, but Kobe was never the best player on a team until ~2004/2005. He HAD to adopt. LeBron was the best player on all his teams since day one.

MJ? Well, he's MJ.


The commentators were criticizing his lack of aggressiveness and shot clock management as well, I left it on the video. And it hasn't been the first or 2nd or 3rd time I've heard that mentioned about him.
In a series in which most people are saying rivals MJ's Finals. In a G7, in which he score 6 straight to give the Cavs the lead and 10+ in the 4th.


Make all the excuses you guys want, it doesn't change shit.
It sure won't. LeBron is a top 5 GOAT and you'll just have to deal with it.


LMAO @ him not having a good point guard or post player..
Really can't help it if you do not understand basketball and basic basketball plays.


i seriously question whether or not OP understands what help defense is
Considering the fact that he doesn't understand simple basketball plays, I doubt he does.

[tpols]

I dare you to argue what I mentioned, because we all know Bron is slow at organizing an offense

thats bron's game.. the reason he is such a stat god is because he basically is tasked with making every play or decision, and his combo of size, passing and handles are what allows him to do that. Problem is this turns most of his teammates into play finishers.. look at cleveland this year, it was basically iso kickout ball my turn, your turn between bron and kyrie.. and thats deadly so long as the other team is missing one thing.. Rim protection. W/o rim protection, Lebron just exploits the size differential. There's never been a more night and day player by adding one thing.. w/ rim protection, "eh", w/o it god mode. His style is infelxible, but given the right conditions unstoppable.

The great thing about MJ is he is unstoppable no matter the conditions. He has a counter for everything.

[Im Still Ballin]

So many morons in here who don't have the facts. LeBron is one of the best off-ball players in the league... I have the facts to back it up too.

[Im Still Ballin]

Welcome to the Im Still Ballin signature series. High quality content, delivered to you by the best poster. Leading the way in InsideHoops content creation and innovation.[/SIZE][/I]

PnR Roll Man
3.6% Frequency
1.35 Points Per Possession
94.9th Percentile
66.7% Score Frequency
3% And1 Frequency
13.6% Shooting Foul Frequency
6.1% Turnover Frequency
13.6% Free Throw Frequency
70.9 eFG%
69.1 FG%

https://media.giphy.com/media/NvFGGl0xWBYWI/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll just below the 3pt line, defense hedges, leaving Lebron open moving to the basket where he is able to use his elite passing ability to find Channing Frye for a high percentage corner three, as the defense rotates to cover the strongside Delly-Lebron action

https://media.giphy.com/media/bR8ls715MEoMw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll at the top of the 3 point line, defense switches, allowing Lebron to call for the ball and isolate on the mismatch, as he drain a nice fallaway Jumper to end the half

https://media.giphy.com/media/lTGZJu0CkRlZe/giphy.gif
Top of the key Delly-Lebron screen and roll, the roll man pushes up hard to cover Delly at the 3pt line, leaving an open rolling Lebron who lays it up for an easy 2

https://media.giphy.com/media/HLkIi8xZxtgkw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll, defense hedges and promptly switches, leaving a rolling Lebron on a much smaller defender, able to use his strength to catch clean possession and throw the lob down

https://media.giphy.com/media/ci17h0MEGI6aY/giphy.gif
Delly Lebron high screen and roll, defense hedges, Delly threads the pass to a charging Lebron down the middle of the key, last line of defense big is caught having to respect Kevin Love in the corner, which causes the rotation and rim protection to be late

https://media.giphy.com/media/YrB9yUkEQnDIQ/giphy.gif
Double Kyrie-Lebron/Love screen and roll action top of the key, causing Kyrie's and Love's defenders to hedge, leaving Love open at the three, forcing Lebron's defender to rotate over, leaving a rolling Lebron to the rack for a jam

[Im Still Ballin]

..
Here's some Roll Man Lebron plays from his game today against Chicago

https://media.giphy.com/media/1V3uZi6YU2q8U/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll, defense hedges Delly middle, leaving open rolling LBJ who catches, performs a spin move on the drive as the last line of defense rotates to protect the rim, Lebron threads a bullet pass to K-Love in the corner for a high percentage open 3pt shot

https://media.giphy.com/media/UNoiCU5Ygg5ji/giphy.gif
Kyrie-Lebron high screen and roll, defense hedges Kyrie middle, leaving open rolling LBJ who catches, drives to the hoop where the defense has collapsed to protect the rim, swings a pass out to Love at the corner, who pump fakes, drives in and dunks the ball. You can see the utter chaos and wreck that a rolling Lebron does to defenses

[Im Still Ballin]

https://media.giphy.com/media/81coxLqXFEgEw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron baseline high screen and roll, man defender gets caught on Lebron screen, roll man defender doesn't push up, waits to contain Delly drive, defensive switch occurs in this possession, Lebron is open on the roll for an easy jam to the hoop as the switched defender is behind and too slow to stop the drive. Poor defensive rotations by Hawks to protect the rim (Or lack thereof)...

[Im Still Ballin]

https://media.giphy.com/media/12mPiBkwTZvEL6/giphy.gif
Lebron does a hand off to Delly from the middle going sideline, then Lebron sets a ball screen for Delly going back middle, the ball defender gets caught in a quality pick, and the roll man defender switches over to contain the Delly drive, who lobs the ball up for a rolling Lebron, who makes a bullet one hand pass to an open Love in the corner due to the weakside defense rotating over to cover the Lebron roll... Love drains the three... Perfect example of how Lebron still uses his dangerous passing and efficient scoring without having to shoot jump shots playing outside in as the ball handler all the time...

[Im Still Ballin]

https://media.giphy.com/media/e7r6yRbpcqe2Y/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron screen and roll on the wing ball going middle, ball defender gets caught on good screen, roll man defender hangs back to contain Delly drive, Lebron rolls, defense collapses in from the weakside, leaving an open Richard Jefferson in the weakside corner, who Delly passes too for an open 3 which he makes. This is a perfect example of how this action can get open shots without Lebron touching the ball..
...

[Im Still Ballin]

https://media.giphy.com/media/cC0S8vmF4F5FC/giphy.gif
This one might be my favorite of the night. Lebron gestures to screen ball man going middle, man defender preemptively ices to push Delly sideline away from the middle, the roll defender hovers over preemptively to cover Delly's penetration, Lebron reads the proactive defense, counters by rolling for the alley oop, Delly drives as defense intends, Lebron looks clear for an easy oop thanks to reading the PnR defense coverage, thus a weakside defender on the wing sags in a help defense fashion, leaving a wide open Channing Frye who Delly threads a bullet pass to, who drains the set shot... This equates to a high efficiency shot, scrambling defense, and offensive rebounders in the vicinity. Great multi-action play
...

[Im Still Ballin]

https://media.giphy.com/media/itveiVlJyvxlu/giphy.gif

- Great Delly-LeBron High PnR founded upon a great solid ball screen by LeBron , which got Delly's man defender caught, forcing Carroll to contain Delly's penetration, leading to an easy oop for a rolling LeBron... Threat of shooters on each side of the court... Deadly play; the Middle PnR with spread shooters
...

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron myths BUSTED

1. He can't play off-ball
ANSWER: WRONG
In the Playoffs

LeBron cutting: 23/29 FG
1.55 PPP

LeBron as the roll man: 14/23 FG
1.41 PPP

He's even dominating putbacks
11/17 FG

For comparison Tristan is 8/20

He's statistically the best cutter and top 5 as a PnR Roll man

2. He's a bad post player
ANSWER: WRONG

LeBron in the post: 15/24 FG
1.09 PPP

He's top 5 in the playoffs so far

We know he' a dominant post player, and has been for the last 4 years or so... He actually led the NBA in Post PPP in 2013

3. He can't defend the rim like a center
ANSWER: WRONG

He's actually statistically the Cavs best rim protector in the playoffs so far

Opponent FG% vs LeBron at rim: 42.9%
18/42 FG defense

For comparison Love is 66% and Tristan is 53.3% and Frye is 51.2%

[Trollsmasher]

ISB taking OP behind the barn:lol

[Im Still Ballin]

Lol I've been posting actual facts about LeBron for awhile now and morons come in here with pre conceived notions that have no facts to back up their claims

[andgar923]

Im still ballin thinks screen and rolls are playing off ball?:lol

There is much more to that boy.

Moving without the ball also means well.. Moving without it to find creases in the defense to get position and get easier shots, it means avoiding the defense to create separation, it means getting your man off balance with a series of moves to either set up a teammate or yourself.

Moving without the ball is more than a set up play/screen and roll.

Moving without the ball is specially essential when a play breaks down and you need to make something out of nothing.

And as I showed, he does NONE of what I mentioned and NONE of what you attempted to post.

But like I mentioned, I'll be fair and make a few more vids. I can assure you the results will be very similar to this vid.

[Im Still Ballin]

I get it though... OP wants to prop up MJ and aj wants to prop up Wade

It's okay though guys, you don't have to try and discredit LeBron to be able to appreciate other players

[aj1987]

Lol I've been posting actual facts about LeBron for awhile now and morons come in here with pre conceived notions that have no facts to back up their claims
Do you have his post scoring stats from '12?



But like I mentioned, I'll be fair and make a few more vids. I can assure you the results will be very similar to this vid.
What results do you think this video had? Honest question.

[andgar923]

Lol I've been posting actual facts about LeBron for awhile now and morons come in here with pre conceived notions that have no facts to back up their claims

One of my main points behind this video is to show how stats can be misleading.

I know it can't happen with just one video, but it gives one a glimpse of what some of us have been stating for years.

You can post a million stats, like some of us have been stating stats are useless without CONTEXT and misleading.

But that's all some of you guys know.

[Im Still Ballin]

Also got these tidbits of facts from the past;


POST-UP POWERS
Most efficient post-up players in 2013-14 season, according to Synergy (minimum 125 plays).

Player Plays Points FG% %FT Pts/play
LeBron James 261 283 55.9 21.8 1.08
Kevin Durant 207 221 47.8 20.8 1.07
Dirk Nowitzki 534 568 50.8 15.5 1.06
Dwyane Wade 145 153 53.7 17.2 1.06
Carmelo Anthony 420 427 49.4 16.7 1.02
Al Jefferson 840 813 51.0 11.0 0.97
Arron Afflalo 173 167 49.6 14.5 0.97
Blake Griffin 541 517 47.8 22.7 0.96
Joe Johnson 244 233 50.8 12.3 0.96
Brandon Bass 241 229 44.8 17.0 0.95


Most efficient spot-up players, 2012-13 regular season(Min. 100 plays)

Player Plays Points PPP
Jose Calderon 187 281 1.50
LeBron James 143 195 1.36
Kyle Korver 224 301 1.34
Steve Nash 114 153 1.32
Stephen Curry 226 294 1.30

[scuzzy]

Lebron is actually underrated


And btw my boy ISB is winning right now

[Im Still Ballin]

One of my main points behind this video is to show how stats can be misleading.

I know it can't happen with just one video, but it gives one a glimpse of what some of us have been stating for years.

You can post a million stats, like some of us have been stating stats are useless without CONTEXT and misleading.

But that's all some of you guys know.
That's not context that's your own biased subjective opinion based upon anecdotal evidence

[AirFederer]

As a big big Jordan (and Wade fan) and I also love Magic and Bird, I still have to say that Bron is not overrated by anyone but his stans on this site. Top 3-5 all time. It is what it is. I also like OP as a poster, but I think this break down is a bridge too far.

Also, Bron is so much better than Kobe they should Almod

[plowking]

lol at what OP considers wide open lanes.

3 or 4 guys hedging and being right on the edge of the key isn't "wide open" lol...
And lol at expecting cuts and movement off the ball, when you don't take into account the whole point of the Cavs offense against the Warriors. Multiple screens to get mismatches, which at that point was then to go one on one most of the time with their man.

Get a clue.

Terrible video by a terrible poster. Cracks me up you actually spent a whole lot of time on this.

[CarlosBoozer]

Always criticizing his off-ball, he was a better off-ball player than Curry in the finals :roll:

[andgar923]

Do you have his post scoring stats from '12?


What results do you think this video had? Honest question.
Context

Stats can be misleading and context is everything.

I knew Bron had some issues, I wasn't expecting to find this many. And I honestly wasn't going into this video focusing on these issues. I was going to focus on the lanes being open and the lack of physical play and how physical play can actually affect one's game.

And although I stopped searching for hand checking and physical play, one play stood out. It was Iggy hand checking him just so slightly, but it was enough to slow him down and force Bron for a kick back.

I've seen Bron fight for position in the post in the past. But I was surprised on how easily he gave up on posting up. People always claim that he'd simply bully people in the post, but I saw none of that in this game. Matter of fact I saw the complete opposite. Someone that shied away from contact and didn't fight for position.

I didn't edit this to make him look bad or omit anything that might make him look good. Everything in this vid is in sequence (for his offensive time on the floor). I may have deleted 1 or 2 small offensive sequences by mistake, but I believe it was a fast break and a play in which the defense wasn't really a factor cause it happened so quick (it wasn't deleted on purpose, Im still learning this software).

At the end, people will take what they want from it. I doubt many will change their opinion and I doubt one video will be the one to do that.

[nba_55]

How much time did it take you to make this trash?

[aj1987]

Context

Stats can be misleading and context is everything.

I knew Bron had some issues, I wasn't expecting to find this many. And I honestly wasn't going into this video focusing on these issues. I was going to focus on the lanes being open and the lack of physical play and how physical play can actually affect one's game.

And although I stopped searching for hand checking and physical play, one play stood out. It was Iggy hand checking him just so slightly, but it was enough to slow him down and force Bron for a kick back.

I've seen Bron fight for position in the post in the past. But I was surprised on how easily he gave up on posting up. People always claim that he'd simply bully people in the post, but I saw none of that in this game. Matter of fact I saw the complete opposite. Someone that shied away from contact and didn't fight for position.

I didn't edit this to make him look bad or omit anything that might make him look good. Everything in this vid is in sequence (for his offensive time on the floor). I may have deleted 1 or 2 small offensive sequences by mistake, but I believe it was a fast break and a play in which the defense wasn't really a factor cause it happened so quick (it wasn't deleted on purpose, Im still learning this software).

At the end, people will take what they want from it. I doubt many will change their opinion and I doubt one video will be the one to do that.
At this point, you're just dismissing everyones FACTUAL posts and just being delusional. Have a ball. Make a billion videos. The fact still remains that you're just mad that he's not doing what you want him to do. The play at :25 is evidence of than.

[andgar923]

Production notes.

This took me longer than anticipated, Im learning a new software so most of the time it took was actually learning the basics and their shortcuts. I think it took me 3 hours to make this, and almost 2 of those were spent watching tutorials and fixing the dozens of mistakes. Once I learned some of the shortcuts and basics it sped up my process, but I was frustrated by then which is why the vid is inconsistent and may be have some incorrect analysis.

I estimate that a future vid may take me 1 hour at most, now that I know the shortcut keys and other shit. Annotating was a hassle, so a future vid may have less of that.

I just need the source material.

Thanks to everyone that watched, whether you agreed or not, fck it at least you saw it. And NO I aint in it for views and NO I aint getting ad revenue (as if 50 views is gonna make me anything).

I did it simply for fun and to learn a new program. But I just wanted to share and contribute something to ISH, as shitty it may be (word). My day off so f*ck it.

Peace putos!!!

:cheers:

[andgar923]

remains that you're just mad that he's not doing what you want him to do. The play at :25 is evidence of than.

On an earlier post I talked about 'decisions' a player makes. In that post I mentioned what if Bron takes another dribble, and that can be applied to that play you questioned.

Bron was going to the basket and picked up his dribble, something that he did in this video which I should probably have pointed out more. if he dribbled just one more time it's layup. But he has bad footwork which is why he jumped awkwardly and isn't a strong finisher which is why he kicked back when he was in the air next to the rim with Curry guarding him.

That's somehow defendable?

[plowking]

Just watched 96 NBA finals, game 6.

Jordan was overrated guys. Doesn't attack open lanes, doesn't move off the ball, and passes out or gets blocked when attacking the ring.
He is not in the same league as Wilt, Kareem or Kobe as a scorer. (Even Bird is probably better).

[G0ATbe]

All this coming from a fan of the most overrated player of all time:facepalm .

[warriorfan]

I will concede he's an all time great player, but his game (skill set) is overrated. Overrated does not mean he's not good, overrated means that he's not as good as his stats or the praise indicate.

He is not in the same league as Bird, Magic or even MJ as a passer. He's not that great at setting up an offense (I think Kobe might be better)
He is horrible at moving without the ball.
He has footwork issues that cause him to lose his balance, get outta control, and jump awkwardly.
He takes too long to read and react.
He's passive by nature and this causes the offense he runs to suffer as a result.

This video will not end the debate, it isn't the end all. I think this only scratches the surface on what some of us have been stating for eons. I can probably do this for 90% of his games (no joke).

In this video I included 98% of the time he was on the floor offensively (I think I deleted 1 or 2 moments when he was on, but they weren't important.. A fast break I believe... Im new with this software). All of the clips are from one single game, not a compilation of a series.

I also did not know exactly what to expect. I had an idea of how he played but as I analyzed the video I kept noticing more and more flaws in his game, I noticed more open lanes.


I also selected this game because it was the most accessible. I plan on making a few more in the near future (I hope to get better at using this software... Give me a break :( ) My ultimate video will be a video that shows side by side every single possession between MJ and Bron, or Kobe and Bron, or Kobe and MJ. Every decision they make will be analyzed, because it is ultimately the decisions that they make that matter. What if Bron decided to cross left instead of right? What if he decided to take an extra dribble and post up Curry? What if he decided to cut to the hole and move without the ball instead of standing in a corner?

Too much rambling here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OLwlN-ZWA

NOTE: Im still new at this software, so I didn't annotate or highlight certain things because I lost track of shit. But always keep in mind how the lanes are usually open. The lanes are wide open almost every possession, the players usually don't even have a foot inside the paint (it's usually nearby).

I like LeBron, but watching a game video and analyzing it is different than watching it live. You notice small flaws in his game that one wouldn't notice during a live game or highlight reel.

He lacks offensive moves, he has no footowork, no balance, but his size and athleticism are too much to handle at times.

Great video OP

This highlights how LeBron was only able to score efficiently once Golden State's best defenders were not available due to unwarranted suspension and injury

[Hoopz2332]

ISB taking OP behind the barn:lol

:oldlol: :cheers:

[Smoke117]

meltdown

[NBAGOAT]

some simple retorts. Your definition of a wide open lane is too strict. Also standing in the corner is a way for him to get rest during the game, He plays a huge amount of minutes in the playoffs. Almost all other superstars have taken plays off before but they might do it in other ways like taking plays off on defense etc. It was also kind of also what the Cavs wanted to do on offense. When Lebron or Kyrie iso, move out of the way and give them spacing. One reason teams that don't get as many easy cuts to the basket is the number 1 thing a defense wants to prevent is free layups even if the 3pt shot is what's hot. When a guy gets a backdoor cut for an easy layup, it's usually because the defense made a mistake. I noticed you didn't comment on good plays he made besides like 1 or 2 so obviously no bias(at least you posted video of some however). Finally you picked a game where he went 9/24, ofc it's pretty easy to pick out bad plays. You can do the same for anyone else with their bad games.

[raprap]

LeBron is one of the most efficient perimeter player of all time because of his off the ball game.

[Doranku]

LeBron is one of the most efficient perimeter player of all time because of his off the ball game.
:biggums:

[Replay32]

The Cavs game plan against the Warriors was to create mismatches, use a lot time off the clock, and run a lot of iso's. After game 1 I thought it was a bad game plan. But in the end, it worked. So I was wrong. Lebron's team made history on multiple levels.

The game has changed. Obviously it's played a lot different know. Lebron James isn't MJ, Magic, or Bird. He's Lebron James. He has his own style and approach to today's NBA. He's a beast. No need to nit pick every damn play. That's really not fair. His impact is proven to be elite and he's one of the greatest players to lace them up.

[andgar923]

ROFL @ all the excuses

A slow ground and pound is not the same as having people disorganized and waiting for a bailout at the end of the shot clock.

Standing in a corner not doing a f*ckin thing is not the same as getting out of the way, specially when you have the two main players ON THE SAME SIDE. Not only does he not move to get open, he clogs up the space for Kyrie. Any player with some sense would either:

A. Set a screen
B. Move out of the way

Those are NOT designed plays, and even IF some of them are, why would he be stupid enough to stand in the way of his teammate and only clutter the area?

The lanes ARE wide f*ckin open in almost every possession in the vid. Players barely have their foot on the paint. We see a few examples of Bron driving with even less space in the lane, why does he not drive when it's wide open? He's simply not aggressive enough and he gets called out for that all the time. People should quit acting like he doesn't get called out for being timid, people should stop making excuses and claim that the plays are for him to stand there dribbling for 12 seconds with everyone standing still.

Either he doesn't know how to run an offense
He doesn't have the court vision to see the open lane
Knows he doesn't have the speed to beat the defense to the rim
Or he's timid to attack it

Now, every player has bad games.

But looking at the 'stats' he had a GREAT game, or at least that's what his fans and some in the media want us to believe. But that's not my point, a player can have a bad game and still show signs of great footwork, post game, aggressiveness, court awareness, speed, off the ball movement, etc. At times shots are missed, or one makes mistakes, that happens nobody is perfect. I didn't select this game knowing how he played in advance, it was simply the most accessible at the moment (aka seeders). What I noticed isn't something that can be attributed to a bad game, what I saw was a fundamental issue with his core skill level in different facets. Some of it I knew and criticized him for in the past, but some issues became more obvious. I mean, his bad footwork and balance doesn't happen in one game, it's something that is off at its core.

Anyway, I do plan on making another vid, any suggestions LeBron fans?

And a link would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

[andgar923]

Having bad footwork, shitty balance, inability to move without the ball, slow at reading and reacting, just to name a few issues is not a result of 'today's game'.

Kyrie Irving is exceptional in everything I just mentioned.

I can do clips of him without the ball, his exceptional footwork, great ability to slash and expose any gaps in the defense, moving fast and not wasting much time to make a decision.

See, almost everything LeBron fans made excuses for him being short in Kyrie excels in. That's not a diss towards Bron since Kyrie is one of the best PLAYERS in the game.

[andgar923]

Since I already have the game, should I do a vid on Curry?

yay or nay?

[plowking]

Do one on Jordan. Game 6, NBA finals, 1996.

[andgar923]

Do one on Jordan. Game 6, NBA finals, 1996.
Find me a link

[plowking]

Find me a link

First full game available when you type in Jordan game 6 finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYGESwAv_7M

[raprap]

:biggums:
Bron averages 27 ppg for his career with a below average jumpshot. Dude has insane off-ball game. Foh

[knicksman]

water is wet. Only dumb people cant see. If hes really good, no need to statpad. But in the end, just like wilt, they get exposed so they have to form superteams just to win. Statpadding is just a defense mechanism for insecure losers.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Meltdown in 3... 2... 1... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCpuu2FpC1o#t=0m39.7s)

All Hail King LeBald, the King Koopa of the NBA. Can't nobody stop him.

[fourkicks44]

Nice work andgar923, this is the sort of research and analysis that I hope to see on this message board. Uncovering the stories that stats don't tell. :applause:

I just want to comment on a couple things that people haven't touched on.

Firstly, I think people are underrating the Warriors defense here. Yes Lebron goes one on one, yes the lanes are open at times, however the Warriors are still great defenders. Green and Iggy (Bogut too) are pretty formidable even for Lebron (who might I add is still quite a physical specimen, but getting on in age). They were the reining champions and the best team all regular season. These are not chumps, they are the best in the world. Also think about what was on the line in this game, the stakes could not get any higher. It might look easier on the tape and in slow motion but being there on the court and in the game, getting to the hoop would be no simple task for any all-time great.

Secondly, I know how much debate goes on here about how the game has changed and the differences and the toughness of each era of basketball. But what I think we can see here and if you do more games like this, is that the game hasn't changed as much as we all make it out it has.

I can't wait to see this Jordan game 6 vid.

:cheers:

[AirBonner]

water is wet. Only dumb people cant see. If hes really good, no need to statpad. But in the end, just like wilt, they get exposed so they have to form superteams just to win. Statpadding is just a defense mechanism for insecure losers.
You are the dumbass. I bet you think collecting championships on a resume is statpadding.

[andgar923]

New vid coming up.

As requested: MJ vs Sonics game 6 Finals one of MJ's worst performances ever


But guess what?

Aside from perhaps a few rushed shots, there isn't much to criticize him on. It was just a bad shooting game. He got the shots he wanted, got good looks on almost everything he just missed.

That's not an excuse, the video will show him simply missing shots. The defense did a great job at being physical and ball denial, getting him out of position and making him work extremely hard on both ends. But he still got good shots, shots he usually makes.

He was constantly doubled, grabbed, pushed, the lanes were almost always congested so his drives were minimized. Yet he drove when he could and either drew a foul or dished it.

His footwork is impeccable, moving and weaving with and without the ball, setting up defenders to get open, losing defenders and double teams with the ball.

He was constantly moving without the ball, ALWAYS moving without it. Not sure how he got the energy to move so much specially with all the grabbing and physical play he was constantly active, constantly fighting for position, rebound, or setting up the plays. Regarding that, one could see him pointing and telling people where and when to go, pointing at them to get the ball moving, moving himself in positions to facilitate the play. If a play broke down he made sure he improvised and made something happened, if his teammate got doubled, he moved outta the way to detract defensive attention from him and possibly free him up.

I just wish the vid was in better quality, couldn't find a better version.

Making this video was tiring because MJ kept moving so keeping the spotlight on him took a while to do. Bron just sorta stood there so it was simple to edit.

Another thing some might notice, MJ didn't really have control of the ball. But when he did something positive usually happened. He didn't take long to read the defense and react, a few dribbles and bam, the ball is moving as the defense runs around. He usually passed it to the right person at the right time (except for 2 bad passes), I should do a vid on him playing PG and ball dominant to see exactly how he played like Bron or most of today's players.

Video is being uploaded, I'll post a link soon.

[Indian guy]

:oldlol: @ using a Game 7 from the NBA Finals as proof of something when those games are always ugly grind fests. And even then you didn't prove a damn thing. This honestly has to be the worst "analysis" of a video in the history of sports. Congrats, you were always the defining old>new just cuz moron of this board, and you have distanced yourself even more so with this gem. All you do after literally every single routine missed shot or pass by LeBron is post "ewww" or "what the heck was that?" or "why didn't he do this?!?" There's no actual analysis of anything. If something didn't end positively for LeBron, you deem it inherently wrong because....well, just because. Also, do you even know what an open lane is? Just because defenders aren't positioned exactly under the rim while the offense is 30 feet away from the basket, it doesn't make the lane "open". On literally every single such possession you showed, the Warriors were converging in the paint the moment there was any hint of dribble penetration, or even a threat to get the ball inside through passing. And in this era of zones, this is actually a lot easier to do because you are no longer forced to guard your man. You can always just play a "zone" on the floor and be ready to help inside when somebody drives to the rim. This is why the perimeter is so much cramped today compared to pre-2001 and why it's harder to attack the rim.

Anyway, I could only make through 7 minutes of this garbage. These are the illuminating things I learned in those 7 torturous minutes: 1) you have an issue with literally every single thing LeBron does on the basketball court. If he passed, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!! If he shot, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!!! If he made the shot, you either say "finally", criticize the defense or of course, why didn't he attack the rim!!! What analysis :oldlol:. This could be done with literally every single game anyone has ever played.

You need to get something through your head. Just because someone stylistically didn't mirror MJ, it doesn't make their own approach incorrect or inferior. There's more than one way to play basketball. LeBron never possessed MJ's first step or his mid-range game. Because of that, the way he attacked defenses was always going to differ vastly from him. And considering LeBron's combination of statistical production, individual accolades and team accolades is arguably second only to one other player in NBA history, it proves that he was clearly doing a lot of things right on the basketball court. There's no way to criticize this. Bottom line, what LeBron did on the basketball court WORKED. Just because he stylistically didn't play like someone to your preference, it doesn't make him overrated. Because results are something you can't argue against. Are you capable of understanding that?

Finally, I've always considered you the biggest idiot of this forum. Someone with such an incredible insecurity about the present that it has rendered you completely incapable of uttering one coherent or unbiased thought about the league post-1998. Literally everything current is deemed "wrong" or inferior to the past simply because you fear someone surpassing MJ and thus feel this desperate need protect to protect his legacy(MJ frankly doesn't need anyone to do that), So everything that happened pre-1998 is better because it helps you sleep better at night. That's it. That's the basis behind your entire schtick here. You have nothing of actual significance or relevance to say otherwise.

[Lebron23]

Terrible Thread. LeBron would destroy the 1990's competition.

[plowking]

:oldlol: @ using a Game 7 from the NBA Finals as proof of something when those games are always ugly grind fests. And even then you didn't prove a damn thing. This honestly has to be the worst "analysis" of a video in the history of sports. Congrats, you were always the defining old>new just cuz moron of this board, and you have distanced yourself even more so with this gem. All you do after literally every single routine missed shot or pass by LeBron is post "ewww" or "what the heck was that?" or "why didn't he do this?!?" There's no actual analysis of anything. If something didn't end positively for LeBron, you deem it inherently wrong because....well, just because. Also, do you even know what an open lane is? Just because defenders aren't positioned exactly under the rim while the offense is 30 feet away from the basket, it doesn't make the lane "open". On literally every single such possession you showed, the Warriors were converging in the paint the moment there was any hint of dribble penetration, or even a threat to get the ball inside through passing. And in this era of zones, this is actually a lot easier to do because you are no longer forced to guard your man. You can always just play a "zone" on the floor and be ready to help inside when somebody drives to the rim. This is why the perimeter is so much cramped today compared to pre-2001 and why it's harder to attack the rim.

Anyway, I could only make through 7 minutes of this garbage. These are the illuminating things I learned in those 7 torturous minutes: 1) you have an issue with literally every single thing LeBron does on the basketball court. If he passed, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!! If he shot, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!!! If he made the shot, you either say "finally", criticize the defense or of course, why didn't he attack the rim!!! What analysis :oldlol:. This could be done with literally every single game anyone has ever played.

You need to get something through your head. Just because someone stylistically didn't mirror MJ, it doesn't make their own approach incorrect or inferior. There's more than one way to play basketball. LeBron never possessed MJ's first step or his mid-range game. Because of that, the way he attacked defenses was always going to differ vastly from him. And considering LeBron's combination of statistical production, individual accolades and team accolades is arguably second only to one other player in NBA history, it proves that he was clearly doing a lot of things right on the basketball court. There's no way to criticize this. Bottom line, what LeBron did on the basketball court WORKED. Just because he stylistically didn't play like someone to your preference, it doesn't make him overrated. Because results are something you can't argue against. Are you capable of understanding that?

Finally, I've always considered you the biggest idiot of this forum. Someone with such an incredible insecurity about the present that it has rendered you completely incapable of uttering one coherent or unbiased thought about the league post-1998. Literally everything current is deemed "wrong" or inferior to the past simply because you fear someone surpassing MJ and thus feel this desperate need protect to protect his legacy(MJ frankly doesn't need anyone to do that), So everything that happened pre-1998 is better because it helps you sleep better at night. That's it. That's the basis behind your entire schtick here. You have nothing of actual significance or relevance to say otherwise.

Great post. You've actually provided us with a better analysis in this post that andgar did of MJ or Bron's game in his two videos. Like you said, terrible poster with a clear bias.

[Im Still Ballin]

Indian guy knows what he's talking about

He's also been on InsideHoops since 2001, which means he's been well involved in the greater microcosm of NBA basketball for much longer than most

[retaxis]

The old "I'll come up with a conclusion first and then find resources that only support my conclusion!"

[andgar923]

Welcome to the Im Still Ballin signature series. High quality content, delivered to you by the best poster. Leading the way in InsideHoops content creation and innovation.[/SIZE][/I]

PnR Roll Man
3.6% Frequency
1.35 Points Per Possession
94.9th Percentile
66.7% Score Frequency
3% And1 Frequency
13.6% Shooting Foul Frequency
6.1% Turnover Frequency
13.6% Free Throw Frequency
70.9 eFG%
69.1 FG%

https://media.giphy.com/media/NvFGGl0xWBYWI/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll just below the 3pt line, defense hedges, leaving Lebron open moving to the basket where he is able to use his elite passing ability to find Channing Frye for a high percentage corner three, as the defense rotates to cover the strongside Delly-Lebron action

https://media.giphy.com/media/bR8ls715MEoMw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll at the top of the 3 point line, defense switches, allowing Lebron to call for the ball and isolate on the mismatch, as he drain a nice fallaway Jumper to end the half

https://media.giphy.com/media/lTGZJu0CkRlZe/giphy.gif
Top of the key Delly-Lebron screen and roll, the roll man pushes up hard to cover Delly at the 3pt line, leaving an open rolling Lebron who lays it up for an easy 2

https://media.giphy.com/media/HLkIi8xZxtgkw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll, defense hedges and promptly switches, leaving a rolling Lebron on a much smaller defender, able to use his strength to catch clean possession and throw the lob down

https://media.giphy.com/media/ci17h0MEGI6aY/giphy.gif
Delly Lebron high screen and roll, defense hedges, Delly threads the pass to a charging Lebron down the middle of the key, last line of defense big is caught having to respect Kevin Love in the corner, which causes the rotation and rim protection to be late

https://media.giphy.com/media/YrB9yUkEQnDIQ/giphy.gif
Double Kyrie-Lebron/Love screen and roll action top of the key, causing Kyrie's and Love's defenders to hedge, leaving Love open at the three, forcing Lebron's defender to rotate over, leaving a rolling Lebron to the rack for a jam


All these gifs are basically screen and rolls/pick and rolls.

Will Perdue can do the same

And most of those are by design, otherwise he's a zombie wondering around out there.

Good try tho, I give it a 'C' for effort.

[andgar923]

Welcome to the Im Still Ballin signature series. High quality content, delivered to you by the best poster. Leading the way in InsideHoops content creation and innovation.[/SIZE][/I]

PnR Roll Man
3.6% Frequency
1.35 Points Per Possession
94.9th Percentile
66.7% Score Frequency
3% And1 Frequency
13.6% Shooting Foul Frequency
6.1% Turnover Frequency
13.6% Free Throw Frequency
70.9 eFG%
69.1 FG%

https://media.giphy.com/media/NvFGGl0xWBYWI/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll just below the 3pt line, defense hedges, leaving Lebron open moving to the basket where he is able to use his elite passing ability to find Channing Frye for a high percentage corner three, as the defense rotates to cover the strongside Delly-Lebron action

https://media.giphy.com/media/bR8ls715MEoMw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll at the top of the 3 point line, defense switches, allowing Lebron to call for the ball and isolate on the mismatch, as he drain a nice fallaway Jumper to end the half

https://media.giphy.com/media/lTGZJu0CkRlZe/giphy.gif
Top of the key Delly-Lebron screen and roll, the roll man pushes up hard to cover Delly at the 3pt line, leaving an open rolling Lebron who lays it up for an easy 2

https://media.giphy.com/media/HLkIi8xZxtgkw/giphy.gif
Delly-Lebron high pick and roll, defense hedges and promptly switches, leaving a rolling Lebron on a much smaller defender, able to use his strength to catch clean possession and throw the lob down

https://media.giphy.com/media/ci17h0MEGI6aY/giphy.gif
Delly Lebron high screen and roll, defense hedges, Delly threads the pass to a charging Lebron down the middle of the key, last line of defense big is caught having to respect Kevin Love in the corner, which causes the rotation and rim protection to be late

https://media.giphy.com/media/YrB9yUkEQnDIQ/giphy.gif
Double Kyrie-Lebron/Love screen and roll action top of the key, causing Kyrie's and Love's defenders to hedge, leaving Love open at the three, forcing Lebron's defender to rotate over, leaving a rolling Lebron to the rack for a jam

LMAO @ thinking those shitty screen and rolls are moving without the ball.

And even then, LOOK at his shitty footwork, he looks like a 1 year old that's just learning how to walk, unbalanced and uncoordinated mutafuKa.

[raprap]

LMAO @ thinking those shitty screen and rolls are moving without the ball.

And even then, LOOK at his shitty footwork, he looks like a 1 year old that's just learning how to walk, unbalanced and uncoordinated mutafuKa.
You just exposed yourself as a sore hater man. :oldlol:

[plowking]

All he can say is "look at his footwork!"... lol.

Which bit of it is bad exactly? Can't point shit out. Everything in those gifs is on point.

[scuzzy]

:oldlol: @ using a Game 7 from the NBA Finals as proof of something when those games are always ugly grind fests. And even then you didn't prove a damn thing. This honestly has to be the worst "analysis" of a video in the history of sports. Congrats, you were always the defining old>new just cuz moron of this board, and you have distanced yourself even more so with this gem. All you do after literally every single routine missed shot or pass by LeBron is post "ewww" or "what the heck was that?" or "why didn't he do this?!?" There's no actual analysis of anything. If something didn't end positively for LeBron, you deem it inherently wrong because....well, just because. Also, do you even know what an open lane is? Just because defenders aren't positioned exactly under the rim while the offense is 30 feet away from the basket, it doesn't make the lane "open". On literally every single such possession you showed, the Warriors were converging in the paint the moment there was any hint of dribble penetration, or even a threat to get the ball inside through passing. And in this era of zones, this is actually a lot easier to do because you are no longer forced to guard your man. You can always just play a "zone" on the floor and be ready to help inside when somebody drives to the rim. This is why the perimeter is so much cramped today compared to pre-2001 and why it's harder to attack the rim.

Anyway, I could only make through 7 minutes of this garbage. These are the illuminating things I learned in those 7 torturous minutes: 1) you have an issue with literally every single thing LeBron does on the basketball court. If he passed, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!! If he shot, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!!! If he made the shot, you either say "finally", criticize the defense or of course, why didn't he attack the rim!!! What analysis :oldlol:. This could be done with literally every single game anyone has ever played.

You need to get something through your head. Just because someone stylistically didn't mirror MJ, it doesn't make their own approach incorrect or inferior. There's more than one way to play basketball. LeBron never possessed MJ's first step or his mid-range game. Because of that, the way he attacked defenses was always going to differ vastly from him. And considering LeBron's combination of statistical production, individual accolades and team accolades is arguably second only to one other player in NBA history, it proves that he was clearly doing a lot of things right on the basketball court. There's no way to criticize this. Bottom line, what LeBron did on the basketball court WORKED. Just because he stylistically didn't play like someone to your preference, it doesn't make him overrated. Because results are something you can't argue against. Are you capable of understanding that?

Finally, I've always considered you the biggest idiot of this forum. Someone with such an incredible insecurity about the present that it has rendered you completely incapable of uttering one coherent or unbiased thought about the league post-1998. Literally everything current is deemed "wrong" or inferior to the past simply because you fear someone surpassing MJ and thus feel this desperate need protect to protect his legacy(MJ frankly doesn't need anyone to do that), So everything that happened pre-1998 is better because it helps you sleep better at night. That's it. That's the basis behind your entire schtick here. You have nothing of actual significance or relevance to say otherwise.
Great post, no clear cut bias like op, just straight facts

[plowking]

Great post, no clear cut bias like op, just straight facts

Bulls fan going in on another Bulls fan. :oldlol:

[scuzzy]

Bulls fan going in on another Bulls fan. :oldlol:
Im so glad that fck Straight_Ballin left after i exposed his photobucket

Hist post just gave you cancer and hurt your face reading them

[plowking]

Im so glad that fck Straight_Ballin left after i exposed his photobucket

Hist post just gave you cancer and hurt your face reading them

I missed that. What happened?

[Dray n Klay]

Im so glad that fck Straight_Ballin left after i exposed his photobucket

Hist post just gave you cancer and hurt your face reading them

:lol :roll: :banana: :banana:

[aj1987]

Im so glad that fck Straight_Ballin left after i exposed his photobucket

Hist post just gave you cancer and hurt your face reading them
Link?

[scuzzy]

He started saying he was a cavs fan and posting pics of the parade in cle

Nope, not gunna happen lol

It happened the same day with this thread and another that was deleted
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412205


mods came through and deleted all the exposure and gave me a 3 day ban

Then str8_ballin deleted his entire photobucket so i couldnt access it anymore (i cracked it)

Havnt seen em since :lol

[aj1987]

He started saying he was a cavs fan and posting pics of the parade in cle

Nope, not gunna happen lol

It happened the same day with this thread and another that was deleted
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412205


mods came through and deleted all the exposure and gave me a 3 day ban

Then str8_ballin deleted his entire photobucket so i couldnt access it anymore (i cracked it)

Havnt seen em since :lol
:roll: :roll:

Should've just saved those photos and posted them. Straight_****** ran away like a little bitch. :roll:

[feyki]

L fan boys talking about bias :lol :lol

[scuzzy]

Straight_Ballin Last Activity: 06-24-2016 02:18 AM

Yep, it literally ended his career on ish

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: @ using a Game 7 from the NBA Finals as proof of something when those games are always ugly grind fests. And even then you didn't prove a damn thing. This honestly has to be the worst "analysis" of a video in the history of sports. Congrats, you were always the defining old>new just cuz moron of this board, and you have distanced yourself even more so with this gem. All you do after literally every single routine missed shot or pass by LeBron is post "ewww" or "what the heck was that?" or "why didn't he do this?!?" There's no actual analysis of anything. If something didn't end positively for LeBron, you deem it inherently wrong because....well, just because. Also, do you even know what an open lane is? Just because defenders aren't positioned exactly under the rim while the offense is 30 feet away from the basket, it doesn't make the lane "open". On literally every single such possession you showed, the Warriors were converging in the paint the moment there was any hint of dribble penetration, or even a threat to get the ball inside through passing. And in this era of zones, this is actually a lot easier to do because you are no longer forced to guard your man. You can always just play a "zone" on the floor and be ready to help inside when somebody drives to the rim. This is why the perimeter is so much cramped today compared to pre-2001 and why it's harder to attack the rim.

Anyway, I could only make through 7 minutes of this garbage. These are the illuminating things I learned in those 7 torturous minutes: 1) you have an issue with literally every single thing LeBron does on the basketball court. If he passed, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!! If he shot, you say why didn't he attack the rim!!!! If he made the shot, you either say "finally", criticize the defense or of course, why didn't he attack the rim!!! What analysis :oldlol:. This could be done with literally every single game anyone has ever played.

You need to get something through your head. Just because someone stylistically didn't mirror MJ, it doesn't make their own approach incorrect or inferior. There's more than one way to play basketball. LeBron never possessed MJ's first step or his mid-range game. Because of that, the way he attacked defenses was always going to differ vastly from him. And considering LeBron's combination of statistical production, individual accolades and team accolades is arguably second only to one other player in NBA history, it proves that he was clearly doing a lot of things right on the basketball court. There's no way to criticize this. Bottom line, what LeBron did on the basketball court WORKED. Just because he stylistically didn't play like someone to your preference, it doesn't make him overrated. Because results are something you can't argue against. Are you capable of understanding that?

Finally, I've always considered you the biggest idiot of this forum. Someone with such an incredible insecurity about the present that it has rendered you completely incapable of uttering one coherent or unbiased thought about the league post-1998. Literally everything current is deemed "wrong" or inferior to the past simply because you fear someone surpassing MJ and thus feel this desperate need protect to protect his legacy(MJ frankly doesn't need anyone to do that), So everything that happened pre-1998 is better because it helps you sleep better at night. That's it. That's the basis behind your entire schtick here. You have nothing of actual significance or relevance to say otherwise.

I actually thought OP was a solid poster once lol... thanks for putting the dude out of his mysery.

[RedBlackAttack]

Also, do you even know what an open lane is? Just because defenders aren't positioned exactly under the rim while the offense is 30 feet away from the basket, it doesn't make the lane "open". On literally every single such possession you showed, the Warriors were converging in the paint the moment there was any hint of dribble penetration, or even a threat to get the ball inside through passing. And in this era of zones, this is actually a lot easier to do because you are no longer forced to guard your man. You can always just play a "zone" on the floor and be ready to help inside when somebody drives to the rim. This is why the perimeter is so much cramped today compared to pre-2001 and why it's harder to attack the rim.
I was going to point this out, but I felt OP put a lot of time into the video and I don't want to discourage anyone from putting forth an effort on here (god knows we could use more posters at least trying).

But, yeah... I only watched a portion of the video and those lanes were well defended. If anything, the Warriors were baiting LeBron to get into the lane where he could be more easily blitzed from all sides.