If lebron and kobe traded places, How many rings would they have? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 06:36 PM

Lets break it down shall we.

Superstar impact

lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference DOUBLE of ordan's 8 win improvment

In year 2 Lebron enforced his brand of basketball and improved the team even MORE winning this time 42-40 but failed to make the playoffs due to a strong east at the time..

Kobe in his early years,

In lebron's third year he FINALLY broke through winning 50 games

Otoh, Kobe was drafted by the bobcats at number 13, and forced his way to the lakers via trade, he wanted to play on a stacked team with shaq. and a team winning 50 games per year.

Team standpoint wise:

It's no secret that kobe was blessed with the opprutunity to play with a top 10 great in shaq, This gave him cushion and room for era, Then even later in his career having The likes of steve nash, Dwight howard, Marc gasol and winning 0 titles with that group, dog lebron all u want about ''collusion'' but atleast lebron always won when he ''colluded'' cant say the same for kobe. :lol Only until these past 2 years has lebron gotten a decent supporting cast, and even then they constantly are battling injuries and mediocre play.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/boxscoregeeks-images/2016-02-26-barea/dwyane-wade.jpg
Compared to:
http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/1-shaq-dunk-shaq-gifs.gif

Stats matchup:

Lebron, clearly outplayed kobe in all of their title wins, even tho kobe had 2 more winning opprutunities, the stats just dont give kobe any favoritism.

2012 Finals game 5 stat line - 26-11-13 on 56% TS%
2013 Finals game 7 stat line - 37-4-12 on a GOAT level 69.8% TS%
2016 Finals game 7 stat line - 27-11-11 on 48% TS%

3/3 Mvps

In every game losing series, lebron played up to his potential but was let down by his teammates play the one outlier being due to having to adjust to a new system, with different players. As soon as he adjusted accordingly, he went on to win 2 straight mvps,and titles. Had his teammates not gone down in 2015, he'd have 4 rings right now.

To break it down, lebron was at the LEAST the second best player in the finals EVERY finals hes been in, outside of the fluke 2011.

otoh, kobe was AT BEST the SECOND best player in 3/5s of his championships, he Didn't need to play well because he had a top 10 goat on his team...

2000 Finals- 15-4-4 on 36% shooting.
0 mvps in that 3 year span.

Kobe stans always want to disregard lebron playing well in the finals but losing as choking, but prop up kobe for not playing well and winning, or not even winning 1 mvp over shaq, but kobes better than shaq right?

Lets examine how well kobe did playing without a top 10 GOAT.

09 title- 30-5-6 on 43% on shooting
10 title - 23-2-15 on 25% shooting
He was arguably only the best player for ONE of them AND only had the best final game ONCE .. Lebron NEVER had this problem..

Killer Instinct:

ANYTIME Lebron was 48 mins from a series win or championship, HE ALWAYS WON AND WAS THE UNDISPUTED BEST PLAYER OF THE GAME..
PTS/AST/REB
2012 Finals game 5 stat line - 26-11-13
2013 Finals game 7 stat line - 37-4-12
2016 Finals game 7 stat line - 27-11-11

Lebron has made a career out of winning game 7s

Game 7 over the pistons
Game 7 over the celtics
Game 7 over the indiana pacers
game 7 over the san antonio spurs
Game 7 over the Golden state warriors

Lebron has the most KEY wins over ANY player in the modern era

Otoh, Kobe

-Choked a 3-1 lead to the suns.
-Choked a 20 point lead to the celtics in the finals.
-Shot 6-24 in the finals game 7.
-Shot 7-21 in game 6 of the 2004 finals, prevented a 4 peat.

Analysis and ring totals:

If we swapped kobe with lebron, given lebron's efficiency right out of the gate, Lebron would have No less than 7 rings, They would have won in 2008 as well as 2011-2012 with dwight and nash.You could argue they would have won in 2004, lebron would have never have played that bad in that game 6 vs the pistons. Prime shaq + Lebron would have been the best duo this game has seen.Lebron's brand of basketball is a better brand, it can work with anyone. We know this because lebron hasn't had a losing record in the regular season since his 3rd year in the league, Aswell as never losing a first round matchup.

Otoh, Kobe with lebron's road at best would have won 2-3 titles, Kobe and wade's play styles wouldn't mesh well, neither would kyrie and kobe..Kobe needs a dominant center in order for his brand of basketball to work, atlas shaq/gasol/Howard, and he still couldn't get the job done half the time when he had that. We know kobe's brand of basketball isn't as good because kobe choked 3-1 leads and didn't make the playoffs in the prime of his career.
otoh, lebron had better records and more success earlier in his career with less than or equal talent to what kobe had in his PRIME.

The one outlier.
Taking into consideration that kobe is an innocent non colluding angel, kobe would have never been in the position to play with wade, that's 2 rings off the table. Therefore, we can conclude that barring a miracle kobe would at best win One ring.And thats being generous, the cavs would never been bad enough to get a high enough to draft anyone decent, and no good free agents would want to play in Cleveland with a guy like kobe.

I<3NBA

08-02-2016, 06:41 PM

Kobe in Cleveland? he'd definitely have 0. idk about Miami. he and Wade have the same position so idk how they'll play that one out.

maybe Kobe will go to a different team. to Memphis probably where Marc Gasol is.

Dray n Klay

08-02-2016, 06:49 PM

Kobe having a peak Shaq for 8 years and only winning 3 rings is low key the biggest embarrassment of his career.

Any superstar with 8 years of peak Shaq win at least 5 rings

Dray n Klay

08-02-2016, 06:51 PM

LeBron with a washed up Wade won a higher frequency (2 rings out of 4 attempts) than Kobe did with a peak Shaq (3 rings in 8 attempts)

scuzzy

08-02-2016, 06:54 PM

SOLID WORK OP :cheers:

i'll save my input for page 2

warriorfan

08-02-2016, 06:55 PM

LeBron with a washed up Wade won a higher frequency (2 rings out of 4 attempts) than Kobe did with a peak Shaq (3 rings in 8 attempts)
https://s31.postimg.org/d9ndpvc63/lebroncollude.jpg

2011 Finals Statistics

Dwayne Wade - 159 points on .614 TS%
Jason Terry - 108 points on .605 TS%
LeBron James - 107 points on .541 TS%

Doesn't seem to washed up to me

Dray n Klay

08-02-2016, 06:57 PM

If Wade only had 1 good series, in 4 years, then yes he WAS washed up

Thanks for pointing it out.

DATBOYFLUENT

08-02-2016, 06:59 PM

Lebron would be ringless

Lebron would not be able to get easy buckets with Odom/Bynum/Gasol/Shaq/Horace clogging the paint

bobopenguin

08-02-2016, 07:35 PM

hard to say..

cos lebron would just run away and collude with other super stars.. he never stayed with 1 team...

LilEddyCurry

08-02-2016, 07:40 PM

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 07:59 PM

Due to Kobe's killer mentality and "me" mentality. He wouldn't have been able to carry scrubs as far as LeBron would have and may have caused chemistry issues with two other all-stars. However, Kobe would have been better playing with one other star (Shaq, Gasol) in comparison to LeBron.
I agree with part of this, however

Can we really say that? lebron won with 0 all stars in the 2016 finals, and only 1 other star performance in kyrie irving, and lost in 2011, Lebron has really only had 2 finals where u can say he played with a ''star''

Otoh kobe went 5-14 when paired with another star(s) and only went 2/5 on fmvps in that paticular time frame.

LilEddyCurry

08-02-2016, 08:04 PM

I agree with part of this, however

Can we really say that? lebron won with 0 all stars in the 2016 finals, and only 1 other star performance in kyrie irving, and lost in 2011, Lebron has really only had 2 finals where u can say he played with a ''star''

Otoh kobe went 5-14 when paired with another star(s) and only went 2/5 on fmvps in that paticular time frame.
What i mean by two other stars is that LeBron's pass-first and team-orientated mentality would not mentally derail the motivation of two other stars.

Big164

08-02-2016, 08:17 PM

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 08:28 PM

Ironically both would end up with more rings!!!

Lebron wins 5 rings, all with Shaq, because of his unselfishness.

2000 Lakers
2001 Lakers
2002 Lakers
2003 Lakers
2004 Lakers

Kobe wins 7 rings.

09 Cavs,
10 Cavs,
11 Miami,
12 Miami,
13 Miami
14 Miami
16 Cavs

Kobe wouldn't win with mo williams as his second option, nor would he have won these past finals vs the warriors, we know this because lebron is a better all around player than kobe, and his teams often need that all around effort to win. there force we can conclude that,

Lebron would have won atleast 8 rings,
kobe would have won 4

AirBonner

08-02-2016, 08:28 PM

Op breaks it down better than anyone. Even better than 3ball.

LostCause

08-02-2016, 09:59 PM

lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference DOUBLE of ordan's 8 win improvment

Don't know who "ordan" is but it's factually incorrect if its Kobe or Jordan, as neither one of their teams improved by 8 games their rookie years (Kobe's by 3, Jordans by 11)

In year 2 Lebron enforced his brand of basketball and improved the team even MORE winning this time 42-40 but failed to make the playoffs due to a strong east at the time..

East was pretty shaken up this year actually. Malice at the Palice and all that

Otoh, Kobe was drafted by the bobcats at number 13, and forced his way to the lakers via trade, he wanted to play on a stacked team with shaq. and a team winning 50 games per year.

At the time, the Hornets were in win-now mode and felt they needed a big man after trading away Alonzo Mourning to get Glen Rice. Adding an 18-year-old project like Bryant -- who the Hornets didn't see historical potential in -- didn't make a lot of sense with the franchise's timeline.

“If we were going to make a move, we wanted to get a big,” Cowens said. “LA was willing to give up Vlade, and it wasn’t like we were trading Kobe for another guy who was going to play the 2 or the 3 position. We had Glen Rice, Dell Curry, and Muggsy Bogues, some guys who could play a little bit from the backcourt, and we were looking to try to win right away. We needed to get a big.

"We knew was good and all, but we didn’t know he was going to be the player he turned out to be."

- http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-charlotte-hornets-dave-cowens-draft-day-trade-122915
Team standpoint wise:

It's no secret that kobe was blessed with the opprutunity to play with a top 10 great in shaq, This gave him cushion and room for era, Then even later in his career having The likes of steve nash, Dwight howard, Marc gasol and winning 0 titles with that group

Marc Gasol :coleman: The fact that your "facts" presented here have so many errors makes it obvious you're just irrationally trying to degrade Kobe and hype Bron

dog lebron all u want about ''collusion'' but atleast lebron always won when he ''colluded'' cant say the same for kobe. :lol

2/4 in Miami and 1/2 in Cleveland. That's not "always winning"

Only until these past 2 years has lebron gotten a decent supporting cast, and even then they constantly are battling injuries and mediocre play....
Compared to....

Gifs make great arguments

In every game losing series, lebron played up to his potential but was let down by his teammates play the one outlier being due to having to adjust to a new system, with different players.

If this were the regular season or earlier rounds, sure. These are the finals. The outlier was definitely when Lebron completely faded in 2011. You can't talk your way around that

As soon as he adjusted accordingly, he went on to win 2 straight mvps,and titles. [B]Had his teammates not gone down in 2015, he'd have 4 rings right now.

This is a "what if". If Malone and Payton weren't so old when they joined the Lakers, Kobe would have 6. If Jordan didn't retire after his first 3-peat, he'd have 8. What-if's cannot be proven, no point wasting time with them

To break it down, lebron was at the LEAST the second best player in the finals EVERY finals hes been in, outside of the fluke 2011.

Wrong

Lebron was the 4th best player in the 2007 Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html)
Lebron was the 3rd best player in the 2011 Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html)

Lebron has the most KEY wins over ANY player in the modern era

What's a "key win"? A game 7 win? So if someone's team advances in 6 instead of 7, would Game 6 count as a key win? or Game 5?

Otoh, Kobe

-Choked a 3-1 lead to the suns.
-Choked a 20 point lead to the celtics in the finals.
-Shot 6-24 in the finals game 7.
-Shot 7-21 in game 6 of the 2004 finals, prevented a 4 peat.

-Lebron was swept in the Finals (Kobe never was)
-Choked a 2-1 Series lead in the Finals

If we swapped kobe with lebron, given lebron's efficiency right out of the gate, Lebron would have No less than 7 rings,

Maybe, maybe not

Otoh, Kobe with lebron's road at best would have won [U]2-3 titles, Kobe and wade's play styles wouldn't mesh well, neither would kyrie and kobe..Kobe needs a dominant center in order for his brand of basketball to work, atlas shaq/gasol/Howard, and he still couldn't get the job done half the time when he had that.

Kobe would mesh fine with Wade and Kyrie. Kobe proved he can play with other star perimeter players many times during the Olympics. Kobe has never had another Top 5 perimeter player to play with for you to make the claim he cant play with them

Also, 2-3 titles is the amount Lebron actually has (3). So you're basically saying Kobe would replicate Lebrons success given the same circumstances, while making a post trying to degrade him by saying he can't fill Lebrons shoes........

Yet he wins the same amount of rings? Your thread is so devoid of logic it argues against itself

We know kobe's brand of basketball isn't as good because kobe choked 3-1 leads and didn't make the playoffs in the prime of his career.
otoh, lebron had better records and more success earlier in his career with less than or equal talent to what kobe had in his PRIME.

Prove this. Also show how you accounted for the Western Conference obviously being tougher to play in than the East and still arrived at your conclusion

This thread is a joke :facepalm

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 10:16 PM

2/4 in Miami and 1/2 in Cleveland. That's not "always winning"
Lebron went 2/4 with a washed up wade, otoh kobe went 3/8 with a prime shaq. let that sink in for a second, any other superstar wins atleast 5 titles. :lol

This is a "what if". If Malone and Payton weren't so old when they joined the Lakers, Kobe would have 6. If Jordan didn't retire after his first 3-peat, he'd have 8. What-if's cannot be proven, no point wasting time with them The difference is kyrie and love suffered freak injuries that should have happened,
otoh, kobe knowingly paired with older players past their prime and couldn't win anything. :lol

What's a "key win"? A game 7 win? So if someone's team advances in 6 instead of 7, would Game 6 count as a key win? or Game 5?

-Lebron was swept in the Finals (Kobe never was)
-Choked a 2-1 Series lead in the Finals
Choking a 3-1 lead due to playing like shit.>losing due to teammates fvcking up/first year in a new system with new coach .

Kobe would mesh fine with Wade and Kyrie. Kobe proved he can play with other star perimeter players many times during the Olympics. Kobe has never had another Top 5 perimeter player to play with for you to make the claim he cant play with themComparing the olympics to the NBA playoffs and finals :roll: :roll:

Also, 2-3 titles is the amount Lebron actually has (3). So you're basically saying Kobe would replicate Lebrons success given the same circumstances, while making a post trying to degrade him by saying he can't fill Lebrons shoes........

Yet he wins the same amount of rings? Your thread is so devoid of logic it argues against itself

Notice how i said AT BEST, and later explained how he'd probably only have ONE, learn to read.

Prove this. Also show how you accounted for the Western Conference obviously being tougher to play in than the East and still arrived at your conclusion

This thread is a joke :facepalm
The east was actually tougher to play in than the west in 2016, otoh, the west had 3 top heavy teams.

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 10:29 PM

Big164

08-02-2016, 10:51 PM

Kobe wouldn't win with mo williams as his second option, nor would he have won these past finals vs the warriors, we know this because lebron is a better all around player than kobe, and his teams often need that all around effort to win. there force we can conclude that,

Lebron would have won atleast 8 rings,
kobe would have won 4

All Kobe needs is a talented beta PF like Gasol, Bosh or Love and hes good to go. Kobe actually doesnt need Wade at all! The supporting cast of Chalmers, Battier, Birdman, Ray Allen, And Miller would do just fine.

Mo Williams of 2009,2010 is an upgrade from DFish during those same years.

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 10:59 PM

All Kobe needs is a talented beta PF like Gasol, Bosh or Love and hes good to go. Kobe actually doesnt need Wade at all! The supporting cast of Chalmers, Battier, Birdman, Ray Allen, And Miller would do just fine.

Mo Williams of 2009,2010 is an upgrade from DFish during those same years.

Mo william's production benefited solely off of lebron's game, It's no secret lebron is able to elevate bench role players to super star levels (See mozgov, delladova, RJ.) We know this because after that year mo wiliams never had a productive season even CLOSE to that year.

Also, in order for kobe to even win 2 rings in the 6 year span that lebron, it would require him to lead his team in points rebs assists for 5 straight seasons, aswell as lead both teams in every statistical category for 2 straight finals..

LostCause

08-02-2016, 11:14 PM

Lebron went 2/4 with a washed up wade, otoh kobe went 3/8 with a prime shaq. let that sink in for a second, any other superstar wins atleast 5 titles. :lol

You like living inside your head, don't you?

Lebron went 2/4 with a still-dominant wade in his first year. Wade was an All-NBA performer 3/4 seasons playing with Bron, and All-Star all 4. Judging by the "Lebron won in 2016 with 0 All Star teammates" narrative, calling Wade washed up here despite him being an All-Star flies directly in the face of that narrative being impressive

Though, Wade being an All-NBA performer alone proves he wasn't washed up. There's also a guy named Chris Bosh, All-Star and All-NBA performer

The difference is kyrie and love suffered freak injuries that should have happened,
otoh, kobe knowingly paired with older players past their prime and couldn't win anything. :lol

Bad comparison and still doesn't prove jack shit as far as if Lebron would've won more or not. Still a what-if scenario. Do you understand that or no?

Choking a 3-1 lead due to playing like shit.>losing due to teammates fvcking up/first year in a new system with new coach .

Lebron was swept playing like shit, and yes he was definitely playing like shit. Drew Gooden almost outperformed him. Drew. Gooden

Stop making excuses. The fact you have to do this for Lebron James is insulting to what the man has accomplished. Not to mention you can make the same excuses for Kobe at different parts of his career

Comparing the olympics to the NBA playoffs and finals :roll: :roll:

It's real life. What these players actually did. Your evidence that he can't is based entirely in your own head. My evidence that he can? From him actually playing competitive basketball with other perimeter stars

Try again

Notice how i said AT BEST, and later explained how he'd probably only have ONE, learn to read.

"At best" doesnt change anything. LeBron won 3 titles with the road he was given. That actually IS Lebron's best efforts. Saying at best Kobe would win 2-3 is saying that Kobe at best = Lebrons best effort. Not sure what you don't understand about this but try reading it slowly and maybe you'll get it

Your "only have one" scenario is inapplicable because now you're changing the circumstances. If Kobe's not playing with Wade this entire thread fails because now you're not "swapping" them or having Kobe take the same road as Bron, despite plugging Bron in to Kobe's circumstances. This is clearly showing that you have an agenda but maybe you're just confused, so which is it?

The east was actually tougher to play in than the west in 2016, otoh, the west had 3 top heavy teams.
[/QUOTE]

This is irrelevant. What you quoted was a response to your claim Lebron did more with less talented teammates than Kobe had in his prime. Obviously, Prime Kobe wasn't 2016 Kobe. Just re-read fam, you're getting lost

SouBeachTalents

08-02-2016, 11:19 PM

You like living inside your head, don't you?

Lebron went 2/4 with a still-dominant wade in his first year. Wade was an All-NBA performer 3/4 seasons playing with Bron, and All-Star all 4. Judging by the "Lebron won in 2016 with 0 All Star teammates" narrative, calling Wade washed up here despite him being an All-Star flies directly in the face of that narrative being impressive

Though, Wade being an All-NBA performer alone proves he wasn't washed up. There's also a guy named Chris Bosh, All-Star and All-NBA performer

The bolded is disingenuous. Wade was still very good during the '13 regular season, but was not remotely an All-NBA caliber player in the playoffs. Dude had a couple of big games in the Finals, but was legit dreadful most of the '13 postseason. And calling Bosh All-NBA caliber when he hasn't made the All-NBA Team in a decade is a joke, might as well call Boozer or D-Will All-NBA caliber

Big164

08-02-2016, 11:19 PM

Mo william's production benefited solely off of lebron's game, It's no secret lebron is able to elevate bench role players to super star levels (See mozgov, delladova, RJ.) We know this because after that year mo wiliams never had a productive season even CLOSE to that year.

Also, in order for kobe to even win 2 rings in the 6 year span that lebron, it would require him to lead his team in points rebs assists for 5 straight seasons, aswell as lead both teams in every statistical category for 2 straight finals..

Kobe only needs to lead in alphaness. His style allows Love and Bosh to play their actual positions and grab rebounds. Love is perfectly capable of snatching those extra boards, he was one of the top rebounders in the game before bron downsized his production in the interest of padding his own stats.

LostCause

08-02-2016, 11:27 PM

Kobe was swept plenty of times, including to that mavs team which is 10x worse than getting swept in the finals with a crap supporting cast,

let that sink in, lebron lost in 6 to a team kobe got swept by while playing below his usual self, held down due to play style at the time otoh, kobe got swept by that team playing his heart out to win. he couldn't get ONE win? yet lebron atleast went 6? :roll: :roll:

Getting swept in the Finals was worse, especially considering how bad he played (Drew Gooden almost outplayed him for the series)

As for Lebron's team being crap, they were a Top 5 defensive unit which showed in the Finals (ie, Duncan shot below 45% and only averaged 18 in the series, compared to 22 on 58% in the previous series). Bron-bron played like complete shit, though, and it's not debatable

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html#CLEadvanced::none

LostCause

08-02-2016, 11:37 PM

The bolded is disingenuous. Wade was still very good during the '13 regular season, but was not remotely an All-NBA caliber player in the playoffs. Dude had a couple of big games in the Finals, but was legit dreadful most of the '13 postseason. And calling Bosh All-NBA caliber when he hasn't made the All-NBA Team in a decade is a joke

Blood clot issues aside, I don't think there's any doubt Bosh is an All-NBA caliber player and was definitely on pace to make said team the year after Bron left. If he played good before and after Lebron but was somehow lesser WITH Lebron, then it's kind of obvious why that would be the case. and it does not mean Bosh isn't an All-NBA caliber player

As for Wade, we're talking about Finals performances right? 20/4/5/2/1 on 47% isn't dreadful in 2013. Was clearly the best player on the Heat in 2011. 23/6/5/1/1 on 44% in 2012. These are all GOOD series numbers. His 2014 series, however, was definitely dreadful, but I originally said he was All-NBA for 3/4 seasons with Bron, so thats valid

Dray n Klay

08-02-2016, 11:38 PM

Wade had 1 decent game the entire 2013 playoffs (Game 4 of the Finals), he was a role player in every other game.

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 11:41 PM

Lebron went 2/4 with a still-dominant wade in his first year. Wade was an All-NBA performer 3/4 seasons playing with Bron, and All-Star all 4. Judging by the "Lebron won in 2016 with 0 All Star teammates" narrative, calling Wade washed up here despite him being an All-Star flies directly in the face of that narrative being impressive

Though, Wade being an All-NBA performer alone proves he wasn't washed up. There's also a guy named Chris Bosh, All-Star and All-NBA performer
Wade's all star appearances were due to lebron A elevating his play and B it being decided by fans, We know this because kobe made the all star team this year despite playing like Sh1t and leading his team to the worst record in franchise history.

Lebron was swept playing like shit, and yes he was definitely playing like shit. Drew Gooden almost outperformed him. Drew. Gooden

Stop making excuses. The fact you have to do this for Lebron James is insulting to what the man has accomplished. Not to mention you can make the same excuses for Kobe at different parts of his career

Again getting swept in the Finals. with mo williams as your second option, Is not as bad as getting swept in the playoffs let that sink in..

It's real life. What these players actually did. Your evidence that he can't is based entirely in your own head. My evidence that he can? From him actually playing competitive basketball with other perimeter stars

Olympic basketball is barely competitive, and not a meter for how he would do in a situation where he had to play an entire season/playoffs with the teams. compare playing with the best player at every position in the world vs euro league all stars brehs. :lol

"At best" doesnt change anything. LeBron won 3 titles with the road he was given. That actually IS Lebron's best efforts. Saying at best Kobe would win 2-3 is saying that Kobe at best = Lebrons best effort. Not sure what you don't understand about this but try reading it slowly and maybe you'll get it Kobe wouldn't have elevated a past prime wade and bosh to the levels needed to win 2 straight titles, let alone 1,
The 3 titles lebron's won is given his bosh/wade being washed up. otoh, kobe would need bosh and wade to play to PEAK prime level in order to win just 2-3 titles. We know this because kobe only won 3 titles with a Shaq in his prime, Lebron won at a better ratio with a washed up wade/bosh than kobe did with a prime top 10 GOAT shaq, despite lebron playing against tougher competition in the finals, Let that sink in.

Your "only have one" scenario is inapplicable because now you're changing the circumstances. If Kobe's not playing with Wade this entire thread fails because now you're not "swapping" them or having Kobe take the same road as Bron, despite plugging Bron in to Kobe's circumstances. This is clearly showing that you have an agenda but maybe you're just confused, so which is it?
Kobe, would most likely only have 1 title, we know this because it was required of lebron to lead his team in Pts/Rebs/AST in order for his team to win, So are you saying kobe would be able to do that for 5 straight seasons We know this wouldn't happen because kobe's brand of basketball relies on him having someone to pick up the rebounding and passing slack due to him not being selfish.

This is irrelevant. What you quoted was a response to your claim Lebron did more with less talented teammates than Kobe had in his prime. Obviously, Prime Kobe wasn't 2016 Kobe. Just re-read fam, you're getting lost
Kobe had atleast the same supporting cast in the years he didn't make the playoffs that lebron did his first 6-7 years in the league, yet barely made the playoffs. let that sink in.

LostCause

08-02-2016, 11:49 PM

TheWinningFam

08-02-2016, 11:52 PM

If putting up 20/4/5/2/1 on 47% makes Wade a roleplayer for the series, that does wonders for anyone arguing about Kobe playing with Malone/Payton (Who put up a fraction of those numbers against DET), and it's no wonder Kobe was swept by Dal in 2011 - he was playing with (By you guys' words) a bunch of washed up roleplayers!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-lakers.html#LAL::none

Kobe had 3 other players who averaged 13 points and nearly 10 boards a game, and still got swept, otoh, lebron had one other player score 20 ppg and lost in 6, to the same team.. let that sink in.

Dray n Klay

08-02-2016, 11:53 PM

The 2013 Spurs >> 2011 Mavs, therefore you need more help to beat them, than for Kobe to beat the Mavs.

Kobe got good enough production from his teammates to win the series, but he played bad.

LostCause

08-03-2016, 12:02 AM

Wade's all star appearances were due to lebron A elevating his play and B it being decided by fans, We know this because kobe made the all star team this year despite playing like Sh1t and leading his team to the worst record in franchise history.

Wade's numbers hardly changed post-lebron than they were with him. The only noticeable decline was FG%, but seeing as Lebrons FG% also declined after leaving Wade, I could just say they elevated each other and leave it at that

As for All Stars being fan voting, no shit. However last I checked, you guys were celebrating Lebron for winning a chip with 0 All Stars despite clearly having 2 All-Star caliber players on the team (Irving and Love). So which one is it? Do we regard All Stars no matter how or why (As is done to degrade players who win with all-stars, even declining ones who were voted in by fans), or do we pretend a team doesn't have all star talent because the obvious all-stars on the team didn't go to the game that year?

Just want your take on this

Again getting swept in the Finals. with mo williams as your second option, Is not as bad as getting swept in the playoffs let that sink in..

Getting swept in the Finals IS getting swept in the playoffs. Let that sink in....

Also, Mo Williams wasn't even on the 2007 Cavaliers. I'm starting to think you weren't even aware Lebron made the Finals in 2007 given how many things you've said seem to indicate that you had no idea about it. Some fan, right?
(Or bandwagoner?)

Olympic basketball is barely competitive, and not a meter for how he would do in a situation where he had to play an entire season/playoffs with the teams. compare playing with the best player at every position in the world vs euro league all stars brehs. :lol

Do you or don't you understand that Olympic basketball, however you feel about it, actually happened. Whereas your scenarios where he can't play with the people he played with on that team, never have?

Let that sink in

(Also, while you may say that, those Euroleague Allstars have won in years past, so)

Kobe wouldn't have elevated a past prime wade and bosh to the levels needed to win 2 straight titles, let alone 1,
The 3 titles lebron's won is given his bosh/wade being washed up. otoh, kobe would need bosh and wade to play to PEAK prime level in order to win just 2-3 titles. We know this because kobe only won 3 titles with a Shaq in his prime, Lebron won at a better ratio with a washed up wade/bosh than kobe did with a prime top 10 GOAT shaq, despite lebron playing against tougher competition in the finals, Let that sink in.

Not really interested in arguing this, you've already changed your own stance on it from Kobe wins 2-3 at best to now he somehow won't win 1. The fact you did that proves me point

Kobe, would most likely only have 1 title, we know this because it was required of lebron to lead his team in Pts/Rebs/AST in order for his team to win, So are you saying kobe would be able to do that for 5 straight seasons We know this wouldn't happen because kobe's brand of basketball relies on him having someone to pick up the rebounding and passing slack due to him not being selfish.

We don't know this either way. Kobe replacing Lebron changes the dynamics of the team and how they play. However Kobe is a bigger threat to score from anywhere on the floor than Bron is, and where defenders sag off of Lebron daring him to shoot, they won't give Kobe that liberty. So this also changes how they'll be defended

Ultimately, we don't know how it would play out You seem to think you do though. It's mildly entertaining to say the least

Kobe had atleast the same supporting cast in the years he didn't make the playoffs that lebron did his first 6-7 years in the league, yet barely made the playoffs. let that sink in.

Prove it

(Judging by how you seem completely unaware of events that occured before the year 2008, I'm going to assume this is when you started watching basketball. So I'll refrain from bringing up things that reference back to before that year going forward)

LostCause

08-03-2016, 12:12 AM

Kobe had 3 other players who averaged 13 points and nearly 10 boards a game, and still got swept, otoh, lebron had one other player score 20 ppg and lost in 6, to the same team.. let that sink in.
That moment when you realize Lebron wasn't one of the players averaging 20ppg, and was the lowest scoring of the Big 3 for the series

Lebrons help? How about washed-up Wade being the best player in the series by a large margin
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html#MIA::none

Let that sink in....

Dray n Klay

08-03-2016, 12:14 AM

LostCause is truly a lost cause.

Dude can only find one series in LeBrons entire career to hate on him :lol

Meanwhile Kobe was bad in 1997, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2011 :lol

LostCause

08-03-2016, 12:19 AM

[I]LostCause is truly a lost cause.

Dude can only find one series in LeBrons entire career to hate on him :lol

Oh

Lebron was the 4th best player in the 2007 Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2007-nba-finals-cavaliers-vs-spurs.html)
Lebron was the 3rd best player in the 2011 Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html)

Must be why I clearly pointed out 2

You can't even read shit right infront of your face, must be MJ's dad for real :oldlol:

Anyway, don't care to hate, it's just dumb that you guys resort to posting inaccurate information and double standards to prop up Lebron. I don't think he needs it, his accomplishments stand on their own merits without trying to diminish anyone else's, but clearly some of you are insecure about all this

TheWinningFam

08-03-2016, 12:39 AM

Wade's numbers hardly changed post-lebron than they were with him. The only noticeable decline was FG%, but seeing as Lebrons FG% also declined after leaving Wade, I could just say they elevated each other and leave it at that
Wade's field goal percentage went down because lebron elevates other player's games, we know this because when lebron left it went down.We know this because post wade, lebron had to deal with even lesser help with kyrie and love going down, thus causing him to have to shoot more, lowering his percentage.

As for All Stars being fan voting, no shit. However last I checked, you guys were celebrating Lebron for winning a chip with 0 All Stars despite clearly having 2 All-Star caliber players on the team (Irving and Love). So which one is it? Do we regard All Stars no matter how or why (As is done to degrade players who win with all-stars, even declining ones who were voted in by fans), or do we pretend a team doesn't have all star talent because the obvious all-stars on the team didn't go to the game that year?

Lebron elevates players games to all star level otoh, kobe got in because of fans, otoh, a player like kyrie would need lebron's boost to play up to his potential to be an all star, but due to not playing all year he was unable to do that.We know this because mo williams made the all star game and never did post lebron era. Otoh, kobe actually reduced all stars to roleplayers, only just barely making the playoffs with nash and dwight howard.

Getting swept in the Finals IS getting swept in the playoffs. Let that sink in....
The heat would have won in 6 had it not been for this miss play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qizaRhIo_oQ&feature=youtu.be&t=267 And lebron was having an off night in that game, otoh kobe got swept by the Same teamLet that sink in.

Do you or don't you understand that Olympic basketball, however you feel about it, actually happened. Whereas your scenarios where he can't play with the people he played with on that team, never have?
Do you or don't you understand olympic basketball is not an accurate comparison or meter for how well someone would do in the playoffs/finals?

Not really interested in arguing this, you've already changed your own stance on it from Kobe wins 2-3 at best to now he somehow won't win 1. The fact you did that proves me point
Kobe with a prime peak bosh and wade/kyrie would win no more than 2-3 titles in 6 years, If they played like they played when lebron was there, he only wins 1/6 at the most. Let that sink in..

We don't know this either way. Kobe replacing Lebron changes the dynamics of the team and how they play. However Kobe is a bigger threat to score from anywhere on the floor than Bron is, and where defenders sag off of Lebron daring him to shoot, they won't give Kobe that liberty. So this also changes how they'll be defended
Opponent's sagging off was due to lebron's drive game and their attempt to prevent it, we all know lebron makes jumpers when he needs to, Its hard to be a great jumpshooter when you also have to be the teams, best Passer/defender/rebounder Do you or don't you understand that it's easier to score more on a higher efficiency when that's your only job?

Prove it
Kobe choked a 3-1 lead While averaging 27 ppg and his second option averaging 20ppg, Let that sink in.

(Judging by how you seem completely unaware of events that occured before the year 2008, I'm going to assume this is when you started watching basketball. So I'll refrain from bringing up things that reference back to before that year going forward)
You wont bring it up because it clearly shows lebron doing better with a lesser cast than kobe.

TheWinningFam

08-03-2016, 12:43 AM

Oh

Must be why I clearly pointed out 2

You can't even read shit right infront of your face, must be MJ's dad for real :oldlol:

Anyway, don't care to hate, it's just dumb that you guys resort to posting inaccurate information and double standards to prop up Lebron. I don't think he needs it, his accomplishments stand on their own merits without trying to diminish anyone else's, but clearly some of you are insecure about all this
6>2 :lol :lol

Also, lebron was at the LEAST the second best player in the finals in 2011, we know this because he lead both teams in assists, an assist is always more valuable than face value points because an assist can be worth either 2 or 3 points, otoh a point is always worth 1 point.

eliteballer

08-03-2016, 12:53 AM

TheWinningFam

08-03-2016, 01:00 AM

Kobe did more with less.

Past his peak, with less talent on his team from 08-10 he put up similar numbers against better comp as LeBron did at his peak on a super team against joke competition on the Heat..

Calling the heat a super team is laughable at best.
Also take into account kobe choked a 3-1 lead in the first round scoring 27 ppg , his second option scoring 19ppg. and 3 total players with near double double averages. let that sink in.

SwayDizzle

08-03-2016, 01:01 AM

lebron prolly wins one ring with shaq and no rings with gasol. just can't see him being alpha enough to take over when shaq wasn't producing or in late game situations when shaq was taken out to prevent 'hack a shaq'. with gasol, he doesn't have the personality type to bring the best out of gasol like kobe did. one ring is generous here.

kobe would've won all 4 years in miami and one in cleveland this past season.

so kobe wins the same amount of chips while lebron does worse. lebron stans should be pleased his career panned out the way it did. he has 3 now.

Mr Feeny

08-03-2016, 01:01 AM

Kobe did more with less.

Past his peak, with less talent on his team from 08-10 he put up similar numbers against better comp as LeBron did at his peak on a super team against joke competition on the Heat..

Kobe's a 44% career scorer, a 40% career finals scorer and a 25% finals game 7 scorer.
He's not even top 10 all time. Why would you compare him with the 2nd greatest player of all time?:cheers:

TheWinningFam

08-03-2016, 01:05 AM

SwayDizzle

08-03-2016, 01:11 AM

So by what you just stated, you're saying kobe would be able to lead his team in Points/ast/rebounds for 5 straight years as well as lead both teams in each stat category in the finals 2 years in a row, which was needed for lebron to win?
their roles and positions are different, but yes i do think kobe could match lebron's production and pull those wins. it might even be more about mentality. kobe was a killer, a stone-cold assassin. lebron manages to muster up that energy every now and then but isn't consistent enough.

eliteballer

08-03-2016, 01:13 AM

Some feat leading your team in rebounds when most of them are uncontested defensive rebs..:roll:

LostCause

08-03-2016, 01:16 AM

Wade's field goal percentage went down because lebron elevates other player's games, we know this because when lebron left it went down.We know this because post wade, lebron had to deal with even lesser help with kyrie and love going down, thus causing him to have to shoot more, lowering his percentage.

Lebrons efficiency isn't near what it was in Miami. Wade elevated Bron just as Bron elevated Wade. We know this because both of them suffered dips in efficiency that they NEVER regained post-lebron leaving. If you're willing to disregard that to claim Lebrons efficiency dipped due to less help, then I can similarly disregard your claims for the same reasons for Wade. It wasn't due to Lebron, it was due to having to shoot more due to less help (Bosh going down)

In fact my case for this is stronger than yours. 13-14, Lebrons last year in Miami, wade attempted 761 FG, making 54% of them. Last season, he attempted 1183. Thanks for supplying this point, does more for my argument than yours, though

Lebron elevates players games to all star level otoh

This will be fun :roll:

kobe got in because of fans,

Same thing you're saying about Wade right? And Bosh? Even though both were All-Stars before Lebron

otoh, a player like kyrie would need lebron's boost to play up to his potential to be an all star

Kyrie made the All Star team when Lebron was in Miami :coleman:

Otoh, kobe actually reduced all stars to roleplayers, only just barely making the playoffs with nash and dwight howard.

On the other hand, Kevin Love was a 3-time All Star before being reduced to a roleplayer after teaming up with Lebron. Also was a perennial Top 5 in PER

Since you bring up Nash, I'd also like to mention that Lebron reduced Shaq to a roleplayer and lost in Semifinals in 09-10. Shaq was an All-Star the previous year and was voted in by Coaches, not fans

You done yet or wanna keep making yourself look bad with these nonsensical comparisons and "lolfacts"

[QUOTE]The heat would have won...[/I]

By "this miss play" the only thing you can be referring to was the missed play of Lebron James the entire series. Wade was carrying Lebron. Who carried Kobe, though?

Let that sink in

Do you or don't you understand olympic basketball is not an accurate comparison or meter for how well someone would do in the playoffs/finals?

That's irrelevant to my point, but thanks for clearing up the fact that you didn't understand how real life > your imagination. That explains quite a bit and why you're so deluded about all this

[U]Kobe with a prime peak bosh and wade/kyrie would win no more than 2-3 titles in 6 years, If they played like they played when lebron was there, he only wins 1/6 at the most. Let that sink in..

Yeah, done here. You're just trying to save face at this point after it was made clear as all hell that your own post contradicted itself. Have fun with that

Opponent's sagging off was due to lebron's drive game and their attempt to prevent it, we all know lebron makes jumpers when he needs to, Its hard to be a great jumpshooter when you also have to be the teams, best Passer/defender/rebounder Do you or don't you understand that it's easier to score more on a higher efficiency when that's your only job?

Opponents daring him to shoot was to exploit the fact he's NOT so great at it. Otherwise there would be no point in giving it to him and letting him beat you that way.

The bolded is a strawman. You probably don't know what that is, so I'll just move on

Kobe choked a 3-1 lead While averaging 27 ppg and his second option averaging 20ppg, Let that sink in.

I asked you to prove Kobe had the same or better supporting cast than Lebron and that's your idea of evidence? Cool. Moving on

You wont bring it up because it clearly shows lebron doing better with a lesser cast than kobe.

Honestly starting to think you're mentally retarded :roll:

Fam, I already brought it up and you were flabbergasted (big word huh?) by it. Didn't know it even existed. You've stated things that showed you weren't aware of it (Excluding 2011 Bron was at least the 2nd best player in every Finals, Mo Williams was on the 07 Cavs , etc) I'm not bringing it up to do YOU a favor because clearly you don't know about it and started following hoops in 08 or 09.

I mean, we can dig into that if you want, but judging by how things are already going, you'll just expose yourself even more. Up to you, fam.

LostCause

08-03-2016, 01:20 AM

6>2 :lol :lol Irrelevant to the point but I doubt you even know what that means

Also, lebron was at the LEAST the second best player in the finals in 2011, we know this because he lead both teams in assists, an assist is always more valuable than face value points because an assist can be worth either 2 or 3 points, otoh a point is always worth 1 point.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Comedy

So Lebron was better than Dirk and Wade in 2011? Lmao. And that's your reasoning? LMAO. How old are you fam. This is a damn waste of time. Dray and Klay is blind but you're just terrible

TheWinningFam

08-03-2016, 01:50 AM

Lebrons efficiency isn't near what it was in Miami. Wade elevated Bron just as Bron elevated Wade. We know this because both of them suffered dips in efficiency that they NEVER regained post-lebron leaving. If you're willing to disregard that to claim Lebrons efficiency dipped due to less help, then I can similarly disregard your claims for the same reasons for Wade. It wasn't due to Lebron, it was due to having to shoot more due to less help (Bosh going down)
Lebron was in his prime in miami, compare that to returning to a team that won 33 ganmes last year, let that sink in, lebron's past his prime at 31 and still posting triple doubles in game 7 against a GOAT 73-9 team, otoh kobe was shooting 6/24 in game 7s let that sink in.

On the other hand, Kevin Love was a 3-time All Star before being reduced to a roleplayer after teaming up with Lebron. Also was a perennial Top 5 in PER
Kevin love played on a shit team in minny team and was the first option, obviously when you become the 3rd option and suffer back to back injuries, your production will decrease. we know this because love suffered a season ending injury in the 2015 playoffs, as well as a concussion in 2016 finals, prior to that he was performing to peak 3 option level in the playoffs. :roll: :roll:

Since you bring up Nash, I'd also like to mention that Lebron reduced Shaq to a roleplayer and lost in Semifinals in 09-10. Shaq was an All-Star the previous year and was voted in by Coaches, not fans
Lebron played with a past his prime shaq that was getting in due to coach fav votes, we know this because shaq himself said that playing with lebron was the first time that he didn't have to do EVERYTHING.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/shaq-on-lebrons-leadership-was-1st-time-i-didnt-have-to-do-anything/ Therefore, we can conclude that kobe actually is a burden on all star's performances while lebron lifts their performances.

By "this miss play" the only thing you can be referring to was the missed play of Lebron James the entire series. Wade was carrying Lebron. Who carried Kobe, though?
Shaq carried kobe to 3 rings and gasol/bench carried kobe to his repeat, we know this because shaq himself said that playing with lebron was the first time in his career that he didn't have to do everything.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/shaq-on-lebrons-leadership-was-1st-time-i-didnt-have-to-do-anything/ We can also infer that kobe was carried because he shot 6/24 in game 7.

That's irrelevant to my point, but thanks for clearing up the fact that you didn't understand how real life > your imagination. That explains quite a bit and why you're so deluded about all this
None of this is my imagination, just clear facts, any credible sports anaylst would tell you, you cant compare olympics to the finals, nice strawman tho.

Yeah, done here. You're just trying to save face at this point after it was made clear as all hell that your own post contradicted itself. Have fun with that
Figures, once i clarify you have nothing to say lol.

The bolded is a strawman. You probably don't know what that is, so I'll just move on
It's not a strawman, when looking into production you have to take into account that kobe would also have to be the teams best pts/rebs/ast man for 5 consecutive years, he didn't even do it once with a better supporting cast, yet you expect him to win more than 1 ring? :roll: :roll:

Honestly starting to think you're mentally retarded :roll: Got you melting down and resorting to ad homs I haven't insulted you once yet you're melting all over the place typing essay long paragraphs trying to argue with me.

I mean, we can dig into that if you want, but judging by how things are already going, you'll just expose yourself even more. Up to you, fam.

First of all who's your alt?

Second, going sooner than 09 would just support the fact that kobe only won 3/8 rings with a top 10 all time player in shaq,
otoh, any other superstar would have at worst won 5,You're scared to go past 09 because kobe has played like sh1t for much longer in his career than lebron did for his 1-2 lone out lier seasons.
We know this because anytime we have a lebron/kobe discussion 2011/2007 is always brought up but never anything else, because then the argument is in favor of lebron, otoh, we can bring up 7 seasons at worst that kobe has under performed in. let that sink in

scuzzy

08-03-2016, 01:52 AM

TheWinningFam sniping heads of the Kobe fanboys one by one

I

LOVE

IT

:roll: :applause: :applause:

knicksman

08-03-2016, 02:51 AM

writing wall of texts yet nobody reads coz nobody respects op.

Kenomax

08-03-2016, 05:02 AM

LeBron 10 rings? Kobe 0, at most he would have maybe few visits in playoffs with Cavs and Heat. LeBron in those Lakers teams? GOD, noone would remember about Jordan today.

34-24 Footwork

08-03-2016, 06:14 AM

Lebron either turns into a reliable midrange jumpshooter/dribbler

or

Or Shaq turns into a spot up shooter.

Not sure what happens....

1 ring probably.

LostCause

08-03-2016, 03:32 PM

Lebron was in his prime in miami...kobe was shooting 6/24 in game 7s let that sink in. [/I]

That's nice, but what does that have to do with Wade enhancing Lebrons FG% when he played there, we know this because Lebrons FG% dropped when he left Wade?

Kevin love played on a shit team in minny team and was the first option, obviously when you become the 3rd option and suffer back to back injuries, your production will decrease. we know this because love suffered a season ending injury in the 2015 playoffs, as well as a concussion in 2016 finals, prior to that he was performing to peak 3 option level in the playoffs. :roll: :roll:

What do PS injuries have to do with Love being a 3-time All-Star and then not making the team after joining the Cavs? All-Star games aren't played in the PS

You said Kobe made All-Stars into roleplayers (and barely made the PO). I show Lebron do it to K-Love and you respond he got injured inthe PO. PS wasn't factored for Kobe, but to defend LBJ you jump to it quick

So did Bron reduce Love to a roleplayer or not? Not making the AS team 2 years in a row after being a 3x All-Star and perennial Top 5 in PER says Yes

Lebron played with a past his prime shaq that was getting in due to coach fav votes, we know this because shaq himself said that playing with lebron was the first time that he didn't have to do EVERYTHING...

Shaq was an All-Star the year before. Came to Cle and didn't make the team while also posting his lowest FG% since 97. The very next year in boston his FG% spiked up by 10%

Read your own link. It refers to Shaq saying he didn't have to take on the leadership role in Cle because Lebron did it. The article posts that "Everything" was misquoted, yet you quote that here anyway. Showing you don't even read your own links before posting them :roll:

Shaq's situation is no different than Nash's. Your double standard is pathetic

Shaq carried kobe to 3 rings and gasol/bench carried kobe to his repeat, we know this because shaq himself said..\

Read your own links

Shaq himself also had this to say-