Do we agree restoring the prevalence of the nuclear family is the #1 goal re: poverty

[Bourne]

I really think having a mother and a father (or two mothers, or two dads, as long as the appropriate influence is given on the kids' lives, whatever that happens to mean) is the critical determinant of socioeconomic status/many factors that contribute to it.

But that isn't focused on in the media or by politicians or activists.

You would need to be the biggest leftist dolt of all time to disagree I think?

[west_tip]

I often think of it in terms of the animal kingdom. The life expectancy of some calf or cub is greatly diminished if their mother dies or they are separated. It is a dog eat dog world and there is no-one that is as capable or as predisposed to nurturing and protecting their young as a biological parent. Look at the stats of orphans and foster children and how likely they are to be abused by their caregivers, its sobering stuff.

[DeuceWallaces]

Nuclear proliferation is never good.

[Dresta]

Of course. It is also the basis and fundamental underpinning of civil liberties and private life. Without it, there is no counterbalance to the State, which becomes absolute (indeed, it even expands to fill all the gaps left by the dissolution of the family, but can never fill them sufficiently, and can only maintain such an unnatural way of life through imposition and tyranny). It is why totalitarian state--and those on the path to totalitarianism--invariably make war on the family

Marriage is in many respects a frivolous joke today that is hard for the young to take seriously, and that is a salient cultural shift with disastrous implications.

[senelcoolidge]

Why do you think the left has been trying to destroy the nuclear family for the past several decades with success. Look at the state of the country.
Look at past regimes like the Nazi, Communist..they waged war on family. Dresta is right.

[Schotsman]

Of course. It is also the basis and fundamental underpinning of civil liberties and private life. Without it, there is no counterbalance to the State, which becomes absolute (indeed, it even expands to fill all the gaps left by the dissolution of the family, but can never fill them sufficiently, and can only maintain such an unnatural way of life through imposition and tyranny). It is why totalitarian state--and those on the path to totalitarianism--invariably make war on the family

Marriage is in many respects a frivolous joke today that is hard for the young to take seriously, and that is a salient cultural shift with disastrous implications.

I sort of see it this way: yes having a good, structured family with two parents can be very positive for your development as a child. Certainly. However, I have a lot of friends with divorced parents and nearly all of them are quite happy that their parents were divorced, simply because of the fact that they rather had that their parents split up than cheat on each other and argue non-stop. In the old days it was a huge taboo to get a divorce and a lot of couples were forced to stay with each other for their entire lives, even though there was no love in their relationship. They always say that couples that are close to a divorce should keep on trying, and that a divorce is damaging to their children. But like I said, a lot of my friends with divorced parents would beg to differ.

In general a lot of youngsters completely disrespect the entire principle of monogamy and marriage. I think that you should always at least try to form a family with the person you love, but you shouldn't force it either. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[west_tip]

I sort of see it this way: yes having a good, structured family with two parents can be very positive for your development as a child. Certainly. However, I have a lot of friends with divorced parents and nearly all of them are quite happy that their parents were divorced, simply because of the fact that they rather had that their parents split up than cheat on each other and argue non-stop. In the old days it was a huge taboo to get a divorce and a lot of couples were forced to stay with each other for their entire lives, even though there was no love in their relationship. They always say that couples that are close to a divorce should keep on trying, and that a divorce is damaging to their children. But like I said, a lot of my friends with divorced parents would beg to differ.

In general a lot of youngsters completely disrespect the entire principle of monogamy and marriage. I think that you should always at least try to form a family with the person you love, but you shouldn't force it either. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Did people in the past sometimes stay unhappily married for life? Sure, but the problem is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, the average marriage in the U.S. last 8 years, that's pathetic. Once the honeymoon period of infatuation and lust has worn off these marriages are unsustainable.

Unfortunately the approach to marriage nowadays is indicative of people's overall flakiness and desire to run away from problems rather than confront them. Kids are soft nowadays and if things get difficult they look for the fastest and easiest solutions rather than rolling up their sleeves and toughing it out.

[Schotsman]

Did people in the past sometimes stay unhappily married for life? Sure, but the problem is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, the average marriage in the U.S. last 8 years, that's pathetic. Once the honeymoon period of infatuation and lust has worn off these marriages are unsustainable.

Unfortunately the approach to marriage nowadays is indicative of people's overall flakiness and desire to run away from problems rather than confront them. Kids are soft nowadays and if things get difficult they look for the fastest and easiest solutions rather than rolling up their sleeves and toughing it out.

I would strongly disagree that getting a divorce is always the easy way out and a way to run away from your problems. It's not always as easy as that. Trying to enforce a marriage that's broken is no way to live, especially for the children who have to witness arguing parents day after day. In the long run, I believe that in a broken marriage splitting up is less damaging to children than having to witness their parents arguing and generally being unhappy all the time. I have a lot of friends with divorced parents that now have very steady and healthy relationships themselves and, in retrospect, are glad that their parents broke up. A lot of them experienced that after their parents got divorced, their parents met new partners that suited them a lot better personality-wise and eventually became much happier persons because of it. In the long run, they'd rather see their parents being apart but happy, than seeing them together but arguing and unhappy. A broken marriage that's being kept alive just for the sake of it can also be very damaging to its surroundings. I personally wouldn't know, my parents have been together for 45 years now.

That being said, yes marriage is sometimes taken too lightly and a lot of youngsters disrespect and/or undervalue marriage (and relationships in general). My personal view, also from experience with friends, is that people often take the decision to start a family far too lightly in the first place, or for the wrong reasons, which often leads to a breakup in the long run. I would definitely agree that living in a home with a stable, positive and structured family is the best way of growing up as a child though.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Don't disagree, but you're overcomplicating things brother.

Let's simplify.

We're men. We got duties. They are to provide food, shelter, medicine; and education and (some) recreation for our sons and daughters.

Educationally, we
a) Teach them to read, riting, to do right, rithmetic, and reflect.
ai. The quintessentials are Torah, Qu'ran, Bible
ai1. Secondarily, How to Think Like a Mathematician; Principia Mathematica
ai2. Tertiary, the history and political books
ai3. Quarternarily, all the technical how stuff works, engineering stuff
ai4. Accounting books
aii. Practice writing letters, especially utilizing Elements of Style
aiii. Business Ethics
aiv. Up to Calc
av. Time to ask oneself "What could I have done better?"

b) To live by their means
bi.Not to get entrapped/engrossed with luxuries
bii. Or distractions
c) Reaffirm the happiness earned from a hard day's labor
cII. Perhaps through a parable by Jesus
e) Be attentive and supportive
f) Reiterate again and again how much debt and slavery sucks.
Most Importantly) Put our trust in Allah Almighty's care (every single individual in this thread has not starved to death; somehow, someway, food was served at least once every 30 days to everyone reading this thread, the same applies to the delicate ratio of oxygen, water, and countless other sustenance received)

And of course avoid destructive habits such as keep our sons the fack away from bad influences---ranging from kids competing against other kids about their sneakers, to the wall street hedge fund culture, to the mafia glorification, and find some way, to at least place dignity in realistic occupations.

[west_tip]

I would strongly disagree that getting a divorce is always the easy way out and a way to run away from your problems. It's not always as easy as that. Trying to enforce a marriage that's broken is no way to live, especially for the children who have to witness arguing parents day after day. In the long run, I believe that in a broken marriage splitting up is less damaging to children than having to witness their parents arguing and generally being unhappy all the time. I have a lot of friends with divorced parents that now have very steady and healthy relationships themselves and, in retrospect, are glad that their parents broke up. A lot of them experienced that after their parents got divorced, their parents met new partners that suited them a lot better personality-wise and eventually became much happier persons because of it. In the long run, they'd rather see their parents being apart but happy, than seeing them together but arguing and unhappy. A broken marriage that's being kept alive just for the sake of it can also be very damaging to its surroundings. I personally wouldn't know, my parents have been together for 45 years now.

That being said, yes marriage is sometimes taken too lightly and a lot of youngsters disrespect and/or undervalue marriage (and relationships in general). My personal view, also from experience with friends, is that people often take the decision to start a family far too lightly in the first place, or for the wrong reasons, which often leads to a breakup in the long run. I would definitely agree that living in a home with a stable, positive and structured family is the best way of growing up as a child though.

I understand what you are saying and some people try multiple interventions to no avail but to clarify, the stat I quoted is that the average marriage that ends in divorce lasts 8 years. That means there are a metric ton of marriages which barely last into their 4th or 5th year. In my eyes if you divorce that soon you either didn't do your due diligence when you were courting or you never really gave it a shot.

Most of this is attributable to the fact people are soft and don't have the capacity to deal with adversity. There's no sense of permanency, consumption and materialism has created a culture and a mindset whereby everything is replaceable and consumable. People seek instant gratification and the quick fix. In contrast the greatest generation took their marriage vows seriously. They grew up during the depression when no-one had a pot to piss in and came of age in WW2. These people knew what real hardship was and they knew how to dig deep and find resolve when it mattered. If you survived running at a machine gun nest on the beaches of Normandy or living off of rations dealing with some marital strife was comparatively a piece of cake. Their marriages lasted because they stuck them out through thick and thin and didn't throw in the towel when the going got tough.

[west_tip]

Having said all that I'm not trying to come across as some sanctimonious jerk who is judgmental of people who get divorces. Shit happens and I get that you might grow apart from your partner, or argue so frequently that your life is miserable, or not want to stay with them because of domestic violence or unfaithfulness.

I just want the pendulum to correct back to where the institution of marriage is again seen as a sacred and near unbreakable bond.

[Schotsman]

I think we agree more with each other than what one might think after reading this discussion haha. I do hope the pendulum swings back towards a situation where youngsters respect the principles of marriage, family and monogamy much more and look at the world in a more sensitive (for a lack of a better word) way rather than a material way. A lot of young people seem to think that they always can and should do better, and lack overall loyalty to e.g. friends, family, employers, etc and are generally hestitant to be happy with what they have and fight for it.

Here in The Netherlands, 1 in 3 marriages ends prematurely, and the average marriage lasts 14 years. I guess that that last stat means that a lot of parents break up when they think that their children are old enough to deal with it or something.

[masonanddixon]

lol, a much better idea is to reduce the population and sterilise those with a criminal background/low income/low IQ people who have more than two children