Here's the production required for Lebron's 3 rings, compared to MJ's first 3

[3ball]

.
THRU 31 YEARS OLD.. (playoff stats are linked to source data)




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
):I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists... :eek:
.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClYUvAdUYAAiRj9.jpg

[Smoke117]

1-9

[3ball]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClYUvAdUYAAiRj9.jpg


That's nice, but Jordan's 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency, while still getting equal or greater assists.. :pimp:

Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Finally, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - he came back and won the series by ONE POSSESSION by averaging 36 ppg in the last 3 games.. Obviously, if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory.
.

[bigkingsfan]

Usage

1. Michael Jordan 35.58
2. Allen Iverson 34.34
3. Tracy McGrady 33.53
4. Russell Westbrook 32.93
5. Carmelo Anthony 32.63
6. LeBron James 31.97

Top five major ballhogs.

[TheWinningFam]

Usage

1. Michael Jordan 35.58
2. Allen Iverson 34.34
3. Tracy McGrady 33.53
4. Russell Westbrook 32.93
5. Carmelo Anthony 32.63
6. LeBron James 31.97

Top five major ballhogs.

The goat ballhogs

[3ball]

The goat ballhogs


Every Lebron fan including Lebron himself wishes he could score 20% more with half the time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) of possession and with greater shooting (ts) and per possession efficiency (ortg).

Jordan is the most efficient high volume wing scorer in history, by far (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376004&postcount=38)..

[SouBeachTalents]

That's nice, but Jordan's 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency, while still getting equal or greater assists.. :pimp:

Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Finally, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - he came back and won the series by ONE POSSESSION by averaging 36 ppg in the last 3 games.. Obviously, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals.

He also needed a 7th game because he was going against a team that won the most games in NBA history, and was better than any team Jordan ever faced. And LeBron averaged more assists than Jordan did in 5 of his Finals, and recorded more rebounds, steals and blocks than Jordan ever did in any Finals appearance

[TheWinningFam]

Every Lebron fan including Lebron himself wishes he could score 20% more with half the time (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) of possession and with greater shooting (ts) and per possession efficiency (ortg).

Jordan is the most efficient high volume wing scorer in history, by far (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376004&postcount=38)..
Did u take a faster pace of game and usage into account?

[Dray n Klay]

3ball, adjust your stats for pace.


Also measure the dtrg of teams LeBron and Jordan faced

[Kenomax]

He doesn't know what's pace, and this:

"Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention."

:facepalm :facepalm

[TheWinningFam]

He doesn't know what's pace, and this:

"Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention."

:facepalm :facepalm
Wont mention pace or opponent's dtrg because it doesn't fit his agenda :roll:

And the scoring 15 more ppg cuz u faced more attention makes 0 sense.

[warriorfan]

He also needed a 7th game because he was going against a team that won the most games in NBA history, and was better than any team Jordan ever faced. And LeBron averaged more assists than Jordan did in 5 of his Finals, and recorded more rebounds, steals and blocks than Jordan ever did in any Finals appearance

It is disingenuous to portray the team that LeBron beat in the 2016 Finals as the same team that won 73 games in the regular season.

Steph Curry after MCL injury, Draymond Green being suspended, Andre Iguodala injured, Andrew Bogut injured; the team that LeBron faced in the Finals is simply not the same strength of the team that won 73 games during the regular season.

[TheWinningFam]

It is disingenuous to portray the team that LeBron beat in the 2016 Finals as the same team that won 73 games in the regular season.

Steph Curry after MCL injury, Draymond Green being suspended, Andre Iguodala injured, Andrew Bogut injured; the team that LeBron faced in the Finals is simply not the same strength of the team that won 73 games during the regular season.
There was no mcl injury inbred.

Curry before game 7 displaying lateral quickness and leaping ability:

https://i.imgflip.com/17hgtd.gif

The injury effected his game none whatsoever

His next game and following series versus the Houston Rockets, Steph perfomed at an elite level

https://s31.postimg.org/981kjrh3v/curry3_5.png

The following 7 game series versus the Oklahoma City Thunder he again performed at a spectacular level

https://s31.postimg.org/exht42na3/curry4.png

And as we all know, in the Finals, Curry just couldn't live up to the two previous series when he faced the Cleveland Cavaliers

https://s31.postimg.org/z656psml7/curry5.png

Infact, by looking at his past 3 Playoffs, 2016 Curry was right on par in nearly every category with his 2014 and 2013 Playoffs

https://s32.postimg.org/bsdxd1t5h/curry8.png


In conclusion we see that
1. Steph is injury prone has a long history of sprains with multiple surgeries
2. Steph's fragile ankles wouldn't allow him to stop on a dime/keep up with Ariza
3. Steph had bad court awareness after seeing Montie fall and drove right through a wet spot, tweaking his knee
4. Multiple sources say it was a grade 1 MCL, 2 weeks fully heal, "he was lucky"
5. Steph came back from injury and played 9 games averaging 31, 8, 7, 48%fg before playing Cleveland where he struggled at 22, 5, 4, 40%fg
6. Steph is a sub par Playoff and Finals performer compared to his regular season
7. GSW front office signed Durant as insurance, specifically banking on Steph's next upcoming injury

[warriorfan]

There was no mcl injury inbred.

Curry before game 7:

https://i.imgflip.com/17hgtd.gif



Doing a dunk in warm ups in no way indicates a player is 100% healthy. Especially regarding their MCL. The main problem that is caused by an MCL injury is loss of lateral movement and explosiveness.

[Quote][I]The MCL is one of four ligaments connecting the femur bone to the tibia at the knee. It helps keep the knee stable as it moves from the outside to the inside.

So the lateral movements are going to put pressure on the ligament.

Athletic trainers refer to what

[TheWinningFam]

Doing a dunk in warm ups in no way indicates a player is 100% healthy. Especially regarding their MCL. The main problem that is caused by an MCL injury is loss of lateral movement and explosiveness.


https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/02/steph-curry-knee-injury-nba-finals-science/
The injury effected his game none whatsoever

His next game and following series versus the Houston Rockets, Steph perfomed at an elite level

https://s31.postimg.org/981kjrh3v/curry3_5.png

The following 7 game series versus the Oklahoma City Thunder he again performed at a spectacular level

https://s31.postimg.org/exht42na3/curry4.png

And as we all know, in the Finals, Curry just couldn't live up to the two previous series when he faced the Cleveland Cavaliers

https://s31.postimg.org/z656psml7/curry5.png

Infact, by looking at his past 3 Playoffs, 2016 Curry was right on par in nearly every category with his 2014 and 2013 Playoffs

https://s32.postimg.org/bsdxd1t5h/curry8.png


In conclusion we see that
1. Steph is injury prone has a long history of sprains with multiple surgeries
2. Steph's fragile ankles wouldn't allow him to stop on a dime/keep up with Ariza
3. Steph had bad court awareness after seeing Montie fall and drove right through a wet spot, tweaking his knee
4. Multiple sources say it was a grade 1 MCL, 2 weeks fully heal, "he was lucky"
5. Steph came back from injury and played 9 games averaging 31, 8, 7, 48%fg before playing Cleveland where he struggled at 22, 5, 4, 40%fg
6. Steph is a sub par Playoff and Finals performer compared to his regular season
7. GSW front office signed Durant as insurance, specifically banking on Steph's next upcoming injury

[warriorfan]

Statistics do not necessarily indicate a players health

Michael Jordan scored 38 points during The Flu-Game (http://www.nba.com/news/features/steve_aschburner/top-nba-finals-moments-michael-jordan-flu-game-in-game-5-chicago-bulls-utah-jazz-1997-finals/). Does that mean Michael Jordan did not have the flu?

[TommyGriffin]

Damn. Shit just got irrefutable.

[aj1987]

Ordan was a POS who got his dad killed and is a perennial bitch as well.
1. BR
2. KAJ
3. LeBron
4. Magic
etc....

Deal with it, 0ball. Your idol gets his dad killed. :facepalm

[3ball]

3ball, adjust your stats for pace.


Here's Per 100 Stats Thru 31 Years Old - MJ scores 25% more with equal assists:



Jordan Playoffs:. 43.9 pts..v 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron Playoffs:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER



http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2016-sum:playoffs_per_poss



We don't have per 100 stats for the Finals, but the pace for Jordan and Lebron's Finals were the same:



[I]1991 Finals Pace:. 85.8
1992 Finals Pace:. 92.3
1993 Finals Pace:. 89.7

2007 Finals Pace:. 82.8
2011 Finals Pace:. 85.5
2012 Finals Pace:. 88.6
2013 Finals Pace:. 88.1
2014 Finals Pace:. 87.4
2015 Finals Pace:. 90.7
2016 Finals Pace:. 92.0



So the pace was EQUAL, yet Jordan's Finals stats were far better thru 31 years old: 33% more scoring and more assists:



Jordan Finals:I 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg






Also measure the dtrg of teams LeBron and Jordan faced



It's statistical fact that the offensive rebounding rates used in the 80's and early 90's would increase today's ORtg by 4 points




From Nylon Calculus:



"Looking at the league-average level, the takeaway is this: an NBA team generally improves on offense by about 0.62 points per 100 possessions for each percentage point increase in its offensive rebound rate. This means that if NBA teams were to improve their offensive rebounding from 23% (where it is now) to 30% (where it was a few years ago), they would generally score about 4.3 points more per 100 possessions."

http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/01/06/offensive-rebounds-and-three-pointers/
https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/the-value-of-improved-offensive-rebounding/




From Grantland:



"The general conclusion the authors presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in March, based on data from the 2011-12 season, was that teams could net about 4 points extra per game by recalibrating their philosophy toward offensive rebounding — that teams were being too cautious."

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/party-crashers-debunking-the-myths-of-offensive-rebounding-and-transition-defense/

[Suguru101]

Why are your stats always altered?

LeBron in his 3 Final wins never averaged under 10 rebounds, but you somehow come up with a 9.9 average....

His scoring is wrong too. His assists are wrong too.

His efficiency, his steals, his blocks. You slightly alter everything to make the difference bigger. That's the sign of either someone who can't count stats (which throws into question any stat you've ever posted), or signs of someone insecure enough to lie through stats to make the difference bigger.

Get your numbers right.

[3ball]

LeBron in his 3 Final wins never averaged under 10 rebounds, but you somehow come up with a 9.9 average....


Lebron's Finals stats include ALL his Finals, not just his winning ones.
.

[TheWinningFam]

That's a typo - the other stats are correct.



No, they aren't - the only stat that was mistyped was rebounds.

Here's the facts - thru 31 years old, the only stat where Lebron has an advantage is defensive rebounds - Jordan scores 25-33% more with equal or greater assists and better efficiency.. It's not even close tbh
Again, not taking pace into account.

And jordan is leagues better than lebron but u keep comparing the 2? k.:lol

[3ball]

Again, not taking pace into account.


Here's Per 100 Stats Thru 31 Years Old - MJ scores 25% more with equal assists:



Jordan Playoffs:I 43.9 pts..v 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron Playoffs:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER



http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2016-sum:playoffs_per_poss

[Trollsmasher]

let's not forget MJ played against D-tier defenses in every single one of those Finals games:lol

[Hey Yo]

That's a typo - the other stats are correct.



No, they aren't - the only stat that was mistyped was rebounds.

Here's the facts - thru 31 years old, the only stat where Lebron has an advantage is defensive rebounds - Jordan scores 25-33% more with equal or greater assists and better efficiency.. It's not even close tbh
:rolleyes:

You purposely do it all the time cause you know LeBron is closing in so you have to fudge the numbers to make the distance greater than what it is.

Clear sign of being shook!

[bigkingsfan]

let's not forget MJ played against D-tier defenses in every single one of those Finals games:lol
Are you saying Barkley coming off the weakside isn't intimidating. :coleman:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

You purposely do it all the time cause you know LeBron is closing in so you have to fudge the numbers to make the distance greater than what it is.

Clear sign of being shook!
As I told the previous poster, Lebron's Finals stats include ALL his Finals, not just the ones he won - so the poster was wrong - the OP stats are correct

[3ball]

let's not forget MJ played against D-tier defenses in every single one of those Finals games:lol


Lebron plays with spacing, whereas Jordan didn't - the Bulls took 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 30 for the Cavs this year..

So Jordan's game would explode on today's spaced-out court and also with the hands-off perimeter defense (no hand-checking).

Today's wider driving lanes and hands-off defense is why the consensus (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183958) from coaches and players alike is that Jordan would average 40+ in today's game.

[Suguru101]

Lebron's Finals stats include ALL his Finals, not just his winning ones.
.

But Jordan's Finals averages you say are 36.... which is only correct if you only take Jordan's first 3 Finals.

So you take LeBron's all 7 Finals.... but only take Jordan's first 3 Finals when he was in his prime? Wtf is this shit?

Btw, I firmly believe LeBron is never passing Jordan. He already has fu*ked up too much and doesn't have that aura of invincibility that makes Jordan such a legend.... but you getting the numbers wrong or altering them on purpose is just dumb.

[Da_Realist]

Btw, I firmly believe LeBron is never passing Jordan. He already has fu*ked up too much and doesn't have that aura of invincibility that makes Jordan such a legend...

He's just not as good.

[Suguru101]

He's just not as good.

I know. His skill set is lacking a consistent mid-range shot. Still, it's annoying that this dude has to resort to altering LeBron's stats.

[plowking]

Can't blame Bron for not getting knocked out in first rounds, and not being able to pump up his stats in losses. Dude was making the finals by 22, something MJ couldn't.

[warriorfan]

Can't blame Bron for not getting knocked out in first rounds, and not being able to pump up his stats in losses. Dude was making the finals by 22, something MJ couldn't.

As you can see LeBron's entire career has been played in the lesser of the two conferences

Not only that, but he exacerbated the situation when he colluded with 2 of the top 5 players in the league1, not to mention they were all from the same conference! This further weakened the conference while strengthening LeBron's team at the same time


Win - Loss Differential Between Eastern and Western Conferences of the Past 18 Years

https://s32.postimg.org/qcuepwsud/Poor_Eastern_Conference.jpg

References:
1. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413987

[TheWinningFam]

Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9
Jordan would be demarr deroazan in today's game.


That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).

[jlip]

.
THRU 31 YEARS OLD




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg




MJ needed to score 25% MORE to achieve his 3 rings than Lebron did, AND get equal or greater assists... :eek:
.
.

Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.

[warriorfan]

Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.

LeBron grabs uncontested defensive rebounds and plays hot potato, Jordan puts the ball in the hoop and wins the game

[3ball]

Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.


Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.

It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.
Jordan's TEAM achieving MORE assists than lebron's was due to having a superior supporting cast.



It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1
Kyrie,wade, are all score first players, not passers, their dropped assist rates were due to lebron taking over the passing responsibilities.

Think about it, Lebron has had to be his team's best scorer passer rebounder defender for his team to win, on top of that he has had to be the best of that for BOTH teams this past finals, jordan has never achieved this feat due to playing with a better supporting cast against weaker competition.

[Hey Yo]

Here's why MJ was able to score more/concentrate on offense.

The Bulls lost game 1 with MJ guarding Magic and here's what he said afterwards.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

"However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

"In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

During the regular season, Pippen gave the term “point forward” a new meaning after leading the team in assists and ranking second in scoring, rebounding and steals. Quite simply, Scottie did it all."



LeBron never had a teammate like that. He had to be Pippen and MJ rolled into one for the majority of the time in his last 5 straight postseasons and Finals appearances.

[jlip]

Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.

It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1


Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.

[3ball]

Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.


If you're saying that Jordan got equal assists due to faster pace - that isn't true - Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron (as shown in the OP).

Also, it's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1

[nba_55]

3ball is getting beaten at his own game :oldlol:

[3ball]

Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.


The most inflated era for 20 ppg perimeter scorers is 2005-2016.

That era is to perimeter scorers what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of 20 ppg scorers at the PG-SF positions, 2005-2016 has the most per season of any era.

For example, there were 11 PG-SF's with 20 ppg averages in 1996, compared to 22 in 2015.. This is a result of the legal hand-checking and lack of 3-point shooting/spacing before the 2005 rule changes, which the league stated were designed to increase penetration (ban hand-checking), thus free up shooters (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) (spacing).
.

[3ball]

But Jordan's Finals averages you say are 36.... which is only correct if you only take Jordan's first 3 Finals.

So you take LeBron's all 7 Finals.... but only take Jordan's first 3 Finals when he was in his prime? Wtf is this shit?


The OP shows the production required by Jordan and Lebron to win THREE rings since that's all Lebron has.. So Jordan's first 3 Finals is all that's needed to match Lebron's 3 rings.

Jordan had already matched Lebron's playoff achievements (3 rings, 3 FMVP's) in barely half the time (8 seasons, versus Lebron's 13).. Jordan also has the highest championship frequency in the post 1960's era (6/15, 40%).





Btw, I firmly believe LeBron is never passing Jordan. He already has fu*ked up too much and doesn't have that aura of invincibility that makes Jordan such a legend.... but you getting the numbers wrong or altering them on purpose is just dumb.



The numbers aren't altered - I linked all of the stats below and in the OP - click on the names for the bballref data:


THRU 31 YEARS OLD




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
):I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg


Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists... :eek:
.

[Hoopz2332]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Here's why MJ was able to score more/concentrate on offense.

The Bulls lost game 1 with MJ guarding Magic and here's what he said afterwards.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

"However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

"In the Chicago

[Da_Realist]

Here's why MJ was able to score more/concentrate on offense.

The Bulls lost game 1 with MJ guarding Magic and here's what he said afterwards.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

"However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

"In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

During the regular season, Pippen gave the term “point forward” a new meaning after leading the team in assists and ranking second in scoring, rebounding and steals. Quite simply, Scottie did it all."



LeBron never had a teammate like that. He had to be Pippen and MJ rolled into one for the majority of the time in his last 5 straight postseasons and Finals appearances.

Lebron couldn't be Lebron and Pippen couldn't be Pippen on the same team at the same time. Pippen skills would be wasted hanging out in the corner while Lebron pounded the ball for 15 seconds waiting on a play to develop. Sort of like how miserable he was playing in Houston with Barkley and Olajuwon.

[NumberSix]

LeBron's assists > Jordan's assists.

LeBron assists on a lot more 3's. Meaning, he passes more but a lower percentage of them are made. They get around the same number of assists, but LeBron's assists result in more points.

[Jasper]

I watched Jordan , as well as Lebron.

The OP stats on both players is remarkable..... so so similar.

But they played in far different ways...

Lebron was always 2nd option to his team , while Jordan was 1st option.
But stats are really something how close they impacted the game.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause:
:applause:

[Hey Yo]

Lebron couldn't be Lebron and Pippen couldn't be Pippen on the same team at the same time. Pippen skills would be wasted hanging out in the corner while Lebron pounded the ball for 15 seconds waiting on a play to develop. Sort of like how miserable he was playing in Houston with Barkley and Olajuwon.
I was referring more about Pippen's defensive skills. Besides, Pippen would be second option as a scorer with LeBron just like he was with MJ.

You referring to 3rd options like Bosh who refused to play down low and bang for boards after he came to Miami. He made himself to play outside and didn't want to post up or get the ball down low.

Love still get's down low, scores and battles for boards....while he also shoots 3's.

Pippen would have been clearly the 2nd option on any of LeBron's first 7yr Cavs teams and be asked to what he did for MJ....concentrate more on D so MJ can concentrate a little more on scoring.

Like I said....James never had the luxury of having a teammate like Scotty, he had to be both players rolled into one most of the time in the postseason.

[3ball]

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:


Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:


Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



Like I said....James never had the luxury of having a teammate like Scotty, he had to be both players rolled into one most of the time in the postseason.



Pippen's presence required Jordan to lead the team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average margin of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).

Lebron isn't capable of that - infact, NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by an average margin of 15 ppg like Jordan.

In addition to requiring Jordan to have the goat scoring load, Pippen's presence also required Jordan to lead the team in passing - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (shown above), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate FG's during the 6-peat.. Lebron isn't capable of leading the team in scoring by 15 ppg, let alone leading the team in passing AS WELL - he's nowhere near this goat capability.

[warriorfan]

Michael Jordan did not have to play with the 2nd and 3rd highest PER in his conference1.

Michael Jordan never got outscored by his teammate in the Finals where LeBron got outscored by two of his1

Michael Jordan never had a teammate that put up the production in the Finals like LeBron did with Wade1


1. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417101

[aj1987]

Michael Jordan did not have to play with the 2nd and 3rd highest PER in his conference1.

Michael Jordan never got outscored by his teammate in the Finals where LeBron got outscored by two of his1

Michael Jordan never had a teammate that put up the production in the Finals like LeBron did with Wade1


1. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417101
Ordan never lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals over 5 straight PO runs.

Ordan never lead his team to a championship which having a team high in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.


Ordan never lead both teams in points rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the Finals.

LeBron also never had 2 All-Def first team players, 6th MOY, COY, rebounding champ, and an All-NBA First team player on his team in the SAME season. He had to BEAT a similar team though.

[SexSymbol]

.
THRU 31 YEARS OLD.. (playoff stats are linked to source data)




PLAYOFFS PER GAME



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game
):. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS



Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
):I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html):. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg



Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists... :eek:
.
.

Well, that's the end of that argument.

Tbh, lebron stans bring this upon themselves with comparisons to MJ, when they know themselves that there's zero argument.

[hiphopfan777]

Also ray allen bailout. Paxson shot doesnt count because it was a play set up and wasnt facing elimination

[SouBeachTalents]

Also ray allen bailout. Paxson shot doesnt count because it was a play set up and wasnt facing elimination

Every post you make is embarrassingly stupid

[TheWinningFam]

Also ray allen bailout. Paxson shot doesnt count because it was a play set up and wasnt facing elimination

Lebron scored/assisted on every point leading up to that play, hit a clutch 3 earlier, scored every point in the overtime and had near trip dub game 7.
Think about it, Lebron has psychologically destroyed you to the point that you have to point out specific plays to discredit him.

[3ball]

Lebron scored/assisted on every point leading up to that play, hit a clutch 3 earlier, scored every point in the overtime and had near trip dub game 7.



Jordan did the same thing in 1993 Finals.

The entire Bulls cast was actually collapsing in the 4th quarter of Game 6 - you could hear Phil Jackson in the huddle telling Pippen and company to "handle the goddamm pressure" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eve0wooazZM&t=46m19s) - but they didn't, and jordan held them afloat by scoring every point of the 4th quarter until his hockey-hockey assist to paxson