3ball....Who you got? Kobe or Lebron?

[Mr Feeny]

While LeTHICK had double that in 3 days:roll: :roll:

Make no mistake about it folks. LeTHICK - a playmaker - is a better scorer than it counts than almost anybody in nba history:bowdown:

[Kenomax]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKthOpu8cI1w9OM/giphy.gif
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/hammertime.gifhttp://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/hammertime.gif

[BlueandGold]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKthOpu8cI1w9OM/giphy.gif
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/hammertime.gifhttp://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/hammertime.gif
lol i gotta admit this is funny.

[Da Real Lambo]

Lebrons chance to be an all time great sailed away 2010 off season. Thats why he gets no respect or recognition from the majority of his peers.

[Chokefree]

Who would you pick to start a team and why?

[SouBeachTalents]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets

[bigkingsfan]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
:applause:

[Chokefree]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
:biggums:

[Hey Yo]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
Maybe Grimace or the Hamburgler.

[Real Cavs Fan]

I have been waiting nearly 15 minutes for my food. I would like to speak to the manager.

[Chokefree]

I have been waiting nearly 15 minutes for my food. I would like to speak to the manager.
Scuzzy....dray n' klay....mr feeny...you forgot your toothbrush after cleaning my toilet last night....pick it up later

[Jameerthefear]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
:roll:

[3ball]

Who would you pick to start a team and why?


If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - this means his game can facilitate great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's teams will generally have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.

[andgar923]

If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - so his game allows for great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's team will have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.

This is how I view them...

Bron is a hammer
Kobe is a Swiss Army knife

Both can do the job, but it depends on what job you need done.

And like you alluded, the Swiss Army knife will be useful for more situations.

[Uchmanmamba24]

If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - this means his game can facilitate great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's teams will generally have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.
:applause: :applause:

[3ball]

Bron is a hammer


Lebron won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, even though their individual stats were equal.. The only way Lebron's equal production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

Lebron didn't benefit from brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand was better because it thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by Howard's underdog Magic.

And we saw Jordan's goat impact on that 1989 team - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So they were a LOTTERY roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to ECF and a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[K Xerxes]

If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - this means his game can facilitate great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's teams will generally have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.

One of the main ways you demonstrate Jordan is better than LeBron is by using Jordan's superior raw production (this is a horribly flawed argument but, in any case, I agree Jordan is superior to LeBron). In the same vein, applying this argument to LeBron and Kobe clearly leads to the conclusion that LeBron better too, as he leads Kobe in virtually all measures of production.

Also, LeBron ball has led teams to more championships than almost all players have in NBA history, bar a handful. The argument that LeBron-ball limits a team is redudant.

Stop drinking the haterade. LeBron's past finals were all time great, and better than anything Kobe has ever done. Kobe's fringe top 10 all time, LeBron is forcing his way into the top 5.

[raprap]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

One of the main ways you demonstrate Jordan is better than LeBron is by using Jordan's superior raw production (this is a horribly flawed argument but, in any case, I agree Jordan is superior to LeBron). In the same vein, applying this argument to LeBron and Kobe clearly leads to the conclusion that LeBron better too, as he leads Kobe in virtually all measures of production.

Also, LeBron ball has led teams to more championships than almost all players have in NBA history, bar a handful. The argument that LeBron-ball limits a team is redudant.

Stop drinking the haterade. LeBron's past finals were all time great, and better than anything Kobe has ever done. Kobe's fringe top 10 all time, LeBron is forcing his way into the top 5.

:applause: That's the best part, all he does is use Jordan's stats as proof that he's better than LeBron, but he refuses to do it comparing LeBron to any other perimeter player. I think my favorite part is that he expects Bosh/Love to go from first options on shit teams to third options on contenders and see no drop off in production, to still average 25 ppg :lol

[InsanityKills]

I think you meant to ask, Big Mac or McNuggets
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[JohnMax]

knicksman's guide in determing the better player (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386598)

For example curry vs bran.

Currys weakness is defense, so you have to compliment him with defensive players like iguodala and bugot.

Brans weakness is clutch scoring, so you have to find that kind of player.

Its easy to find role players like iguodala because defense is the easiest aspect of this game. Meanwhile "clutch scoring/making tough shots" is the most difficult to learn so only the best of the best could do it(i.e. curry/kobe) aka superstars. So to build around bran, you need superstars aka curry but you only need iguodala for curry. For me the better player is the player thats easier to build and since you only need role players for curry while superstars for bran then curry>bran. And thats the reason why bran has to go to wade or irving to win 2 while kobe only need gasol to win the same.

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron won a championship this year with 0-all stars




Otoh Kobe has never won a championship with 0 all-stars

[3ball]

Also, LeBron ball has led teams to more championships than almost all players have in NBA history


Except Lebron team-hopped, which most all-time greats didn't do... So the only times Lebron-ball won is when he teamed up with sufficient talent to OVERCOME the invariable decline in teamwork and teammate stats that Lebron-ball causes.

For example, we know that Lebron cratered Bosh and Love's stats, but he still won because he had superstar wings as 2nd options... Obviously, he could never win by cratering Pau's stats and turning him into a spot-up shooter... Otoh, Kobe got the most out of Pau, so he won without a superstar wing like Wade or Kyrie picking up the slack.

[Nash]

If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - this means his game can facilitate great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's teams will generally have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

yeah, who cares lebron is a better scorer, playmaker, defender, can play and defend 1-5.
Can lead a full series against best regular season team in history of the game in ppg, apg, rpg, spg.
Has lead 2 scrub teams to the finals(cavs 07, cavs 15)

thank god this thread is only to laugh at you and not anybody actually caring about what you think

[K Xerxes]

Except Lebron team-hopped... The only times Lebron-ball won is when he teamed up with sufficient talent to OVERCOME the invariable decline in teamwork and everyone's stats that Lebron-ball causes.

For example, we know that Lebron cratered Bosh and Love's stats, but he still won because he had superstar wings as 2nd options... Obviously, he could never win by cratering Pau's stats and turning him into a spot-up shooter... Otoh, Kobe won 2 rings by getting the most out of Pau... He didn't need a superstar wing like Wade or Kyrie because he was already getting the most out of Pau.

LeBron cratered Bosh and Love's stats... Once again, you use statistics as the be-all end-all of a player's impact on a game. And, once again, I will remind you that LeBron's stats are clearly better than Kobe across the board, while also ending up with more rings as the leader. You cannot continue your crusade on LeBron if you do not address this inconsistency in your hackneyed 'production' argument.

[SouBeachTalents]

knicksman's guide in determing the better player (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386598)

For example curry vs bran.

Currys weakness is defense, so you have to compliment him with defensive players like iguodala and bugot.

Brans weakness is clutch scoring, so you have to find that kind of player.

Its easy to find role players like iguodala because defense is the easiest aspect of this game. Meanwhile "clutch scoring/making tough shots" is the most difficult to learn so only the best of the best could do it(i.e. curry/kobe) aka superstars. So to build around bran, you need superstars aka curry but you only need iguodala for curry. For me the better player is the player thats easier to build and since you only need role players for curry while superstars for bran then curry>bran. And thats the reason why bran has to go to wade or irving to win 2 while kobe only need gasol to win the same.

Every post you make reeks of autism

[Nash]

knicksman's guide in determing the better player (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386598)

For example curry vs bran.

Currys weakness is defense, so you have to compliment him with defensive players like iguodala and bugot.

Brans weakness is clutch scoring, so you have to find that kind of player.

Its easy to find role players like iguodala because defense is the easiest aspect of this game. Meanwhile "clutch scoring/making tough shots" is the most difficult to learn so only the best of the best could do it(i.e. curry/kobe) aka superstars. So to build around bran, you need superstars aka curry but you only need iguodala for curry. For me the better player is the player thats easier to build and since you only need role players for curry while superstars for bran then curry>bran. And thats the reason why bran has to go to wade or irving to win 2 while kobe only need gasol to win the same.
in what world is lebron's weakness his clutch scoring? leader in game 7 ppg in history of the game. has better clutch production in the closing seconds than most greats in the history of the game.

weakness he says :lol: :lol:

[tpols]

the wise man has spoken.


Kobe can get more out of a variety of different HOF teammates, while Lebron has a more narrow range of what he can fit with ~ cookie cutter floor spreader types for the most part, with at least one HOF wing that could seal the deal.

Kobe repeated with Derek Fisher. :yaohappy:

[3ball]

LeBron cratered Bosh and Love's stats... Once again, you use statistics as the be-all end-all of a player's impact on a game. And, once again, I will remind you that LeBron's stats are clearly better than Kobe across the board, while also ending up with more rings as the leader. You cannot continue your crusade on LeBron if you do not address this inconsistency in your hackneyed 'production' argument.
you aren't getting it - Lebron's stats are better than Kobe's, but Lebron achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats yourself, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

[SouBeachTalents]

you aren't getting it - Lebron's stats are better than Kobe's, but Lebron achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats yourself, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

Yeah, I'm sure if LeBron won 3 rings with Shaq averaging 35/15 every Finals and winning FMVP you'd be propping up his Finals record :lol

[Dray n Klay]

the wise man has spoken.


Kobe can get more out of a variety of different HOF teammates, while Lebron has a more narrow range of what he can fit with ~ cookie cutter floor spreader types for the most part, with at least one HOF wing that could seal the deal.

Kobe repeated with Derek Fisher. :yaohappy:


Sorry to burst your bubble but Kobe actually played with better guards than LeBron



Kobe:

Nick van Exel

Eddie Jones

Gary Payton

Steve Nash





LeBron:


Broken down Wade

Irving (who wasn't even an all star)

[Dray n Klay]

The myth that Kobe only had 1 dominant big man and nothing else needs to stop.



Here, compare the elite guards Kobe played with compared to LeBron, it's not even close.


Kobe:

Nick van Exel

Eddie Jones

Gary Payton

Steve Nash





LeBron:


Broken down Wade

Irving (who wasn't even an all star)




So not only did Kobe get to play with GOAT big men, he also had better guards around him than LeBron. #stacked

[stalkerforlife]

Triggered.

What
A
Meltdown

:roll:

[Mr Feeny]

12be gonna 12be :roll:

[LilEddyCurry]

Add Mo Williams to the LeBron list and also a washed-up Larry Hughes.

[K Xerxes]

you aren't getting it - Lebron's stats are better than Kobe's, but Lebron achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats yourself, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

Only Love and Bosh have seen decreases in their statistical production that can be attributed in part to LeBron. Kyrie hasn't. Wade was playing fine until he started declining. And, for this, the bottom line is LeBron has made all of them champions (or, with Wade, two more times a champion).

You don't understand basketball if you think the stats of 2nd and 3rd scoring options comprise an entire team. The defensive attention he commands demonstrably gives role players more opportunities to score.

Futhermore, you ignore the impact of a good coaching system. Before you say that Phil and Tex are overrated as they had had all time great players, even WITH that, comparing them to the coaches LeBron has had is frankly a non-comparison.

My point is that there are a lot of factors you simply refuse to consider when discussing LeBron. With a lot of frankly useless conjecture that tons of other greats could win more in his place.

Before it used to be that LeBron didn't have the accomplishments to be in that top 5 conversation. Now that he clearly does (3 rings, 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs), it's fallen to speculation and logical gymnastics to argue that he isn't as great as he quite clearly is. No remotely rational observer buys it.

[Dray n Klay]

Think about it, Kobe had so much more guard help than LeBron, that Kobe couldn't even get a starting role on his team his first 3 years :lol

[warriorfan]

in what world is lebron's weakness his clutch scoring? leader in game 7 ppg in history of the game. has better clutch production in the closing seconds than most greats in the history of the game.

weakness he says :lol: :lol:

Most 4th Quarter Points during the Finals

1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3


If you notice, none of LeBron's 7 Finals are on that list

[SouBeachTalents]

Only Love and Bosh have seen decreases in their statistical production that can be attributed in part to LeBron. Kyrie hasn't. Wade was playing fine until he started declining. And, for this, the bottom line is LeBron has made all of them champions (or, with Wade, two more times a champion).

You don't understand basketball if you think the stats of 2nd and 3rd scoring options comprise an entire team. The defensive attention he commands demonstrably gives role players more opportunities to score.

Futhermore, you ignore the impact of a good coaching system. Before you say that Phil and Tex are overrated as they had had all time great players, even WITH that, comparing them to the coaches LeBron has had is frankly a non-comparison.

My point is that there are a lot of factors you simply refuse to consider when discussing LeBron. With a lot of frankly useless conjecture that tons of other greats could win more in his place.

Before it used to be that LeBron didn't have the accomplishments to be in that top 5 conversation. Now that he clearly does (3 rings, 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs), it's fallen to speculation and logical gymnastics to argue that he isn't as great as he quite clearly is. No remotely rational observer buys it.

I'm pretty sure I saw that 3ball ranked Barkley higher than LeBron

[SouBeachTalents]

Most 4th Quarter Points during the Finals

1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3


If you notice, none of LeBron's 7 Finals are on that list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpjtV4qjJBU

Also, you'll notice that none of Curry's Finals are on the FMVP list

[K Xerxes]

Most 4th Quarter Points during the Finals

1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3


If you notice, none of LeBron's 7 Finals are on that list

Because you're taking only one quarter of a game? LeBron has 4 finals with more ppg than Curry in 2015 if you actually include all 4 quarters.

[andgar923]

I see both K X's and 3Ball's arguments.

They're both correct on both counts.

Which is why MJ = GOAT

He's Bron like with the stats, and Kobe with the skills.



I had too!!!

[warriorfan]

Because you're taking only one quarter of a game? LeBron has 4 finals with more ppg than Curry in 2015 if you actually include all 4 quarters.
No, those were posted in response to LeBron's ability to score in the clutch

How many points a player scores in the 4th quarter of the Finals is a good indicator on how clutch of a performer they are

[Smoke117]

This is how I view them...

Bron is a hammer
Kobe is a Swiss Army knife

Both can do the job, but it depends on what job you need done.

And like you alluded, the Swiss Army knife will be useful for more situations.

You have be one of the dumbest mother ****ers to come to this conclusion. The chucker and primary scorer is the swiss army knife...but the best all around player in the league for over a decade is the hammer? LMFAO. Stick to throating Jordan.

[andgar923]

You have be one of the dumbest mother ****ers to come to this conclusion. The chucker and primary scorer is the swiss army knife...but the best all around player in the league for over a decade is the hammer? LMFAO. Stick to throating Jordan.

Did you even read to what I was alluding too?

If you read the entire thing within 'context' you would understand it better.

[Uchmanmamba24]

You have be one of the dumbest mother ****ers to come to this conclusion. The chucker and primary scorer is the swiss army knife...but the best all around player in the league for over a decade is the hammer? LMFAO. Stick to throating Jordan.
This f@ggot has been drinking again!

[Smoke117]

Did you even read to what I was alluding too?

If you read the entire thing within 'context' you would understand it better.

Your context doesn't matter and has many holes. Lebrons impact on the various aspects besides scoring is higher...it's a lot easier to build around him than it is Kobe because he is very good to elite at almost every aspect of the game. All this "lebron ball" nonsense that haters come up with is just that...nonsense. Teams play the way they play with Lebron because he's the best player in the world and YOU PLAY THROUGH THE BEST PLAYER. All these dumb asses trying to say it wouldn't work with Gasol...because Bosh or Love are even' close to Gasol as far as post players. He was legit the best post player in the league and borderline top 10 overall in 2008-2010.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe

Wins

AGAIN.

[bobopenguin]

"Dray n Klay
This message is hidden because Dray n Klay is on your ignore list."

what a beautiful world. :rockon:

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's because the more physical eastern conference style of play bothers him.

[Bankaii]

"Dray n Klay
This message is hidden because Dray n Klay is on your ignore list."

what a beautiful world. :rockon:
So you came into a thread made by him just post this?:oldlol:

[Ca$H]

2004 Olympics- Bronze Medal. Had prime Duncan.

2006 FIBA- Bronze Medal. Bran, Wade, and Melo were elite players already. 2005-2006 stats LeBron- 31.4/7.0/6.6, Melo- 26.5/4.9/2.7, and Wade- 27.2/5.7/6.7. Huge debacle.

2008 Olympics- Gold Medal. Kobe was the go to guy in crunch-time in the gold medal game against Spain.

2012 Olympics- Gold Medal.

So Bran is 0/2 without Kobe and 2/2 with Kobe. Team USA would have still won in 2012 without Kobe but they would lost to Spain in 2008 without him. Bran would be 1/4 instead of 2/4 if it wasn't for Kobe.

[warriorfan]

That's because the more physical eastern conference style of play bothers him.

Incorrect, the more physical style of the allowed defense1 in the majority of Kobe's Finals appearances2 is what bothered him

otoh all of LeBron's Finals appearances3 fell under the newer, more lax, defensive rules that were introduced post 20041


References:
1. http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

2. http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-kobe-nba-finals-20160415-snap-htmlstory.html

3. http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/nba-ranking-lebron-jamess-finals-appearances.html/?a=viewall

[stalkerforlife]

I honestly had forgotten that Bran won TWO BRONZE MEDALS.

WTF?!

[Ca$H]

I honestly had forgotten that Bran won TWO BRONZE MEDALS.

WTF?!

He would also have a Silver Medal in the 2008 Olympics if it wasn't for Kobe. :oldlol:

[Lebronxrings]

12th

[TheWinningFam]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/424273/lebron-blocks-kobe-dunk-o.gif

[Lebronxrings]

Think about it, Kobe had so much more guard help than LeBron, that Kobe couldn't even get a starting role on his team his first 3 years :lol
DAM. :eek: :eek:

[andgar923]

Your context doesn't matter and has many holes. Lebrons impact on the various aspects besides scoring is higher...it's a lot easier to build around him than it is Kobe because he is very good to elite at almost every aspect of the game. All this "lebron ball" nonsense that haters come up with is just that...nonsense. Teams play the way they play with Lebron because he's the best player in the world and YOU PLAY THROUGH THE BEST PLAYER. All these dumb asses trying to say it wouldn't work with Gasol...because Bosh or Love are even' close to Gasol as far as post players. He was legit the best post player in the league and borderline top 10 overall in 2008-2010.

This f#g is mad cause 3Ball picked Kobe :oldlol:
He's mad cause someone thinks Kobe gives you more looks offensively :oldlol:

I have absolutely NO agenda here. I have nothing to gain by stating what I just did. Actually by some people's logic Im f*cked either way.

If I state Kobe is better offensively, Kobe stans will be using that as ammo to say Kobe is the more skilled player than MJ.

If I state Bron, then they will say Bron is better than MJ.

I've ALWAYS maintained the following...

Bron is the better overall player
Kobe is the more refined skilled offensive player

That is an unbiased view on both players, they both have pros and cons, they both have aspects in their game that make them great. Neither of them are perfect and they're both multi-dimensional in their own way. Both of them will win (and have won) in their own way.

Stop crying like a lil f#ggot ass bitch cause someone states Kobe is the more versatile offensive player.

In 3Ball's assessment he never stated who was the better player, only who would be more versatile for more offensive setups, and I tend to sorta lean towards his pov.

Pinche maricon


Chupame la verga pendejo


See.... I can throw insults too, but I can do it in 2 different languages. Give me a few months and I'll tell you to suck a dick in French as well.

[Lebronxrings]

OP is a loser

[GrapeApe]

How did those guards produce?

Wade in 4 years with Lebron:
22/5/5/2/1, 24 PER regular season
20/5/4/2/1, 21 PER playoffs

Irving in 2 years with Lebron:
20/5/3/1/.5, 20 PER regular season
23/5/3/2/1, 23 PER playoffs

I'm assuming the guards that Kobe played with all produced at a higher level. Right?

[Lebronxrings]

lol i gotta admit this is funny.
:hammertime: :hammertime:

[scuzzy]

While Lebron is getting invites to the Olympics at age 18, putting up crazy rookie numbers in the NBA and become his teams leader.

Kobe at the same age was ...... Cmon i know i know


Say it with me.....
















Riding...The....Bench :yaohappy:

[tpols]

kobe fam dishin out the L's today .. got damn. it's a new day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgUSGCJTQL4).

:dancin

[TheWinningFam]

Think about it, Kobe had so much more guard help than LeBron, that Kobe couldn't even get a starting role on his team his first 3 years :lol

[scuzzy]

So you came into a thread made by him just post this?:oldlol:
Exactly :lol

[Ca$H]

While Lebron is getting invites to the Olympics at age 18, putting up crazy rookie numbers in the NBA and become his teams leader.

Kobe at the same age was ...... Cmon i know i know


Say it with me.....
















Riding...The....Bench :yaohappy:

2005-2006 LeBron- 31.4/7.0/6.6, Melo- 26.5/4.9/2.7, and Wade- 27.2/5.7/6.7

3 elite players. Result- Bronze Medal in 2006 FIBA tournament. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

These clowns would have lost again in 2008 if Kobe didn't bail them out.

[tpols]

the only other starting guard that kobe has ever won a championship with was Derek Fisher.

let that sink it.

[JT123]

is the greatest player since Jordan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE7yIaxojjQ
skip to the 6 minute mark :applause:

Even Kobe's biggest supporters in the media can no longer pretend that 12be is in the same tier as Bron. :lol

Kobe stans, hold this L

[Orlando Magic]

the only other starting guard that kobe has ever won a championship with was Derek Fisher.

let that sink it.

It's sinking in that Kobe made everyone else fail, you ******!

[tpols]

It's sinking in that Kobe made everyone else fail, you ******!

haha.. yea Fisher sure failed in his career alongside Kobe.. yup.

Keep the meltdowns coming.

[plowking]

He would also have a Silver Medal in the 2008 Olympics if it wasn't for Kobe. :oldlol:

Kobe would too if it wasn't for Wade.

[scuzzy]

Bron at 18 gettin dem Olympic invites:bowdown:

Kobe at 18 prayin Phil lets him taste garbage minutes behind Eddie :lol

Pa

The

Tic


:roll: :roll:

[TheWinningFam]

kobe was drafted to the hornets, before crying to get to the lakers who went 53-29 the previous year..
In Kobe's rookie year the team went just 56-26 just an 3 game improvement, Keep in mind this was with prime shaq.

otoh, lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference quintuple of kobe's 3 with a better supporting cast.

Think about it, It took kobe 4 years to make the finals with prime shaq and a 50+ win supporting cast, Lebron did this in the same time frame with practically the same 17 win team..

[Fudge]

Kobe stans on suicide watch!

LOL!

[Ca$H]

Kobe would too if it wasn't for Wade.

4 Forward Joe Johnson 1981 Atlanta Hawks
5 Guard Kirk Hinrich 1981 Chicago Bulls
6 Guard LeBron James 1984 Cleveland Cavaliers
7 Forward Antawn Jamison 1976 Washington Wizards
8 Forward Shane Battier 1978 Houston Rockets
9 Guard Dwyane Wade 1982 Miami Heat
10 Guard Chris Paul 1985 NO/OKC Hornets
11 Center Chris Bosh 1984 Toronto Raptors
12 Center Dwight Howard 1985 Orlando Magic
13 Center Brad Miller 1976 Sacramento Kings
14 Forward Elton Brand 1979 Los Angeles Clippers
15 Forward Carmelo Anthony 1984 Denver Nuggets

Head coach: Mike Krzyzewski. 2006 FIBA Roster. Pretty much the same roster except for Kobe. Result: Bronze. Bran, Wade, and Melo were elite level players too.

[TheWinningFam]

kobe was drafted to the hornets, before crying to get to the lakers who went 53-29 the previous year..
In Kobe's rookie year the team went just 56-26 just an 3 game improvement, Keep in mind this was with prime shaq.

otoh, lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference more than quintuple of kobe's 3 with a 50+ win supporting cast.

Think about it, It took kobe 4 years to make the finals with Phil jackson Prime shaq and a 50+ win supporting cast, Lebron did this in the same time frame with a 17 win supporting cast, 3rd year head coach, and drew gooden as his second option.

[warriorfan]

Bron at 18 gettin dem Olympic invites:bowdown:

Kobe at 18 prayin Phil lets him taste garbage minutes behind Eddie :lol

Pa

The

Tic


:roll: :roll:

https://s7.postimg.org/42qp8hkpn/1996_u_s_mens_basketball_lead.jpg

18 year old LeBron wouldn't of made that team either

[MP.Trey]

How many has Kobe won without LeBron? Just wondering.

[SouBeachTalents]

I really thought LeBron winning the title this year would end the LeBron/Kobe debate and the endless threads comparing them, guess I was dead wrong :lol

[IllegalD]

I really thought LeBron winning the title this year would end the LeBron/Kobe debate and the endless threads comparing them, guess I was dead wrong :lol


What made you think that other than being a prisoner of the moment?
:confusedshrug:

1) LeBron has lost 4 finals (twice as many as Kobe)
2) LeBron has team-jumped TWICE
3) LeBron has a negative/losing finals record
4) LeBron has played in the pathetic Leastern Conference his whole career
5) LeBron is on the losing end and the main culprit of the biggest upset in Finals history (vs 2011 Mavs)

All this while being a far superior athletic specimen to Kobe (6'8 and outweighing him by like 40 pounds).

And he still has time to add more finals losses and even change teams once again.

[TheWinningFam]

What made you think that other than being a prisoner of the moment?
:confusedshrug:

1) LeBron has lost 4 finals (twice as many as Kobe)
2) LeBron has team-jumped TWICE
3) LeBron has a negative/losing finals record
4) LeBron has played in the pathetic Leastern Conference his whole career
5) LeBron is on the losing end and the main culprit of the biggest upset in Finals history (vs 2011 Mavs)

All this while being a far superior athletic specimen to Kobe (6'8 and outweighing him by like 40 pounds).

And he still has time to add more finals losses and even change teams once again.
kobe was drafted to the hornets, before crying to get to the lakers who went 53-29 the previous year..
In Kobe's rookie year the team went just 56-26 just an 3 game improvement, Keep in mind this was with prime shaq.

otoh, lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference more than quintuple of kobe's 3 with a 50+ win supporting cast.

Think about it, It took kobe 4 years to make the finals with Phil jackson Prime shaq and a 50+ win supporting cast, Lebron did this in the same time frame with a 17 win supporting cast, 3rd year head coach, and drew gooden as his second option.

[warriorfan]

kobe was drafted to the hornets, before crying to get to the lakers who went 53-29 the previous year..
In Kobe's rookie year the team went just 56-26 just an 3 game improvement, Keep in mind this was with prime shaq.

otoh, lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference more than quintuple of kobe's 3 with a 50+ win supporting cast.

Think about it, It took kobe 4 years to make the finals with Phil jackson Prime shaq and a 50+ win supporting cast, Lebron did this in the same time frame with a 17 win supporting cast, 3rd year head coach, and drew gooden as his second option.
It is significantly easier to raise a record of 17-65 in comparison to raising a 53 win team's record

For Example, if Kevin Durant joined the 76ers, he could easily add 10+ wins to that team. When Kevin Durant joins the Warriors, they could very well end up with a worse record than they did last season. Does that mean Durant performed better if he hypothetically joined the 76ers, put up the same production, but the 76er's gained more wins than the Warriors in respect to their last seasons? The logic does not work

As for your "making the finals" criteria. You are neglecting the fact that it is easier to make the Finals in the Eastern Conference than it is in the Western Conference

Reference:
https://s7.postimg.org/3kc7q2o2j/Poor_Eastern_Conference.jpg

[livinglegend]

This board has become a copy-paste spamming crap. :facepalm
Some of you really need a job.
You sit in the basement and copy-paste the whole day.

[TheWinningFam]

It is significantly easier to raise a record of 17-65 in comparison to raising a 53 win team's record

For Example, if Kevin Durant joined the 76ers, he could easily add 10+ wins to that team. When Kevin Durant joins the Warriors, they could very well end up with a worse record than they did last season. Does that mean Durant performed better if he hypothetically joined the 76ers, put up the same production, but the 76er's gained more wins than the Warriors in respect to their last seasons? The logic does not work
The answer to your question is yes, we know this because durant would see more usage being the first option in the 76ers offense, this would lead to more wins, otoh, being the second or third option in the warriors offense would diminish his stats, If his production stayed the same as if he was on the 76ers, the warriors would win more games, therefore we can conclude that joining the warriors and their record worsening would be a result of durant being less productive.


As for your "making the finals" criteria. You are neglecting the fact that it is easier to make the Finals in the Eastern Conference than it is in the Western Conference

Reference:
https://s7.postimg.org/3kc7q2o2j/Poor_Eastern_Conference.jpg

Having a 17 win supporting cast and 3rd year head coach evens out with the conference being weaker just like having a stacked team evens out with having tougher competition, we know this because the lakers went 15-1 their only lost coming vs a Eastern conference team while shaq averaged 31/15/4 despite the ''west being a better conference'' therefore we can conclude that having a stacked roster beats out playing tougher competition.

[3ball]

.
Shots per Dunk (higher number means lower dunk frequency)



Year..... Shots..... Dunks....Shots Per Dunk

1988..... 165,439..... 5,727..... 28.89 <------ harder to dunk
1989..... 182,375..... 6,475..... 28.17
1990..... 192,942..... 7,011..... 27.52
1991..... 193,050..... 7,241..... 26.66
1992..... 193,401..... 8,122..... 23.81
1993..... 190,296..... 8,252..... 23.06
1994..... 186,948..... 8,515..... 21.96
1995..... 180,414..... 8,645..... 20.87
1996..... 190,675..... 8,468..... 22.52
1997..... 188,587..... 8,460..... 22.29
1998..... 189,544..... 9,318..... 20.34 <------ easier to dunk
1999..... 113,390..... 4,681..... 24.22
2000..... 195,228..... 8,325..... 23.45
2001..... 191,661..... 7,319..... 26.19 <------ harder to dunk
2002..... 193,256..... 8,439..... 22.90
2003..... 192,096..... 8,265..... 23.24
2004..... 189,805..... 8,120..... 23.38
2005..... 197,640..... 9,150..... 21.60
2006..... 194,310..... 8,640..... 22.49
2007..... 196,080..... 8,310..... 23.60
2008..... 200,490..... 9,270..... 21.63
2009..... 199,050..... 9,360..... 21.27
2010..... 201,000..... 8,790..... 22.87
2011......199,800..... 8,910..... 22.42
2012..... 161,220..... 7,320..... 22.02
2013..... 201,600..... 9,540..... 21.13
2014..... 204,180..... 9,030..... 22.61 <------ easier to dunk


SOURCES - 76'er Media Guides:

Total Dunks for Each Player (links to 76er Media Guide data)

1988 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0whh&s=8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw57s&s=8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1992 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck
1993 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

1995 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=316rspc&s=8#.VI_53SvF_Ck
1996 Season... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=j82vl1&s=8#.VI_5qyvF_Ck

Harvey Pollack's Statistical Guide.. Cumulative Dunks 87'-05 (page 10)... http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/05-06SIX_p1-50.pdf
.

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron won 19 more games in 2009 than Jordan won in 1989, even though their individual stats were equal.. The only way Lebron's equal production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.
When accompanying pace, lebron had the superior stats.
Lebron per 100- 41/10/11
Jordan per 100-40/9/9
An assist is always worth more than face value points, we know this because a point at face value is always worth atleast 1 point, otoh an assist could be worth 3 points or 2 points, thus raising the value.
As seen, lebron averaged 2 more assists 1 more point and rebound while playing in a slower pace than jordan against tougher competition.


Lebron didn't benefit from brand of basketball - we know Jordan's brand was better because it thrived and was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed by Howard's underdog Magic.
Lebron was drafted to a team that went 17-65 the previous year.. but it all changed from there...

lebron turned a 17-65 team into a 35-47 team his rookie year, thats a 16 win difference DOUBLE of ordan's 8 win improvment

In year 2 Lebron enforced his brand of basketball and improved the team even MORE winning this time 42-40 but failed to make the playoffs due to a strong east at the time..

In lebron's third year broke through winning 50 games and getting his team to the play offs and guess what? he WON his first playoff series something Jordan just couldn't do..




Jordan was drafted to the bulls who went 27-55 the previous year..
In jordan's rookie year the team went 35-47 just an 8 game improvement and managed to make the playoffs.

Jordan attempting to enforce Jordan ball REGRESSED even more the second year going 30-52 :facepalm but because of such a weak east was able to STILL make the playoffs..

In his 3rd year they went 40-42 and lost AGIAN in the first round.. with superior supporting cast in paxson and oakley..



Think about it, Jordan missing 64 games his sophmore year and the team only losing 5 more games that year SHOWS that jordan has ALWAYS had the better supporting cast than lebron..


And we saw Jordan's goat impact on that 1989 team - the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So they were a LOTTERY roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to ECF and a 3-peat beginning in 1991 - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

If clyde averages 6 more points 4 more rebounds and 6 more assists the trailblazers win in 6 over the bulls keep in mind drexler had a BETTER supporting cast than lebron, he had 3 other 13+ point scorers otoh, lebron only had 1 and that was due to the gs defense keying in on lebron thus opening opprutunities for kyrie to score..

Furthermore, if you replace clyde drexler with lebron's playmaking scoring and defensive upgrades the portland trailblazers would probably win in 6 vs the bulls in 92.

Clyde's 92 finals stats 24/7/3
Lebron's 16 Finals stats: 30/11/9

[TheWinningFam]

To put things into perspective, a player's numbers will decrease if he goes from being a first option to a second or third option, we know this because if you're a second or third option you will see less usage.

Think about it, lebron got to the finals quicker as the main main starting his rookie year than kobe did being the main man starting in his prime with a better supporting cast than lebron, (17-65) his rookie year, compared to starting at 34-48 for kobe in his prime in a Tougher western conference, The fact that they went 34-48 despite being in a tougher conference proves that kobe had the superior supporting cast..

[Hey Yo]

What made you think that other than being a prisoner of the moment?
:confusedshrug:

1) LeBron has lost 4 finals (twice as many as Kobe)
2) LeBron has team-jumped TWICE
3) LeBron has a negative/losing finals record
4) LeBron has played in the pathetic Leastern Conference his whole career
5) LeBron is on the losing end and the main culprit of the biggest upset in Finals history (vs 2011 Mavs)

All this while being a far superior athletic specimen to Kobe (6'8 and outweighing him by like 40 pounds).

And he still has time to add more finals losses and even change teams once again.
1. Can't argue with that. Kobe lost in 2004 when he tried to be first option and 2008 when he was first option.
2. Kobe manipulated the draft to get on the 2nd most successful franchise in the league ...plus knew Shaq was coming to LA.
3. LeBron's played in 6 Finals as the man/first option where Kobe's played in 4 as trying to be first option (2004) and as first option/captain in 2008...going 2-2
4.So what's that say about Kobe's only 2 rings....he won them by beating a pathetic Leastern team?
5. Wade was the main culprit cause it was still his team. Just like in your eyes, LeBron was the main culprit on 2009 and 2010.

LeBron 3-3as the man/captain with 3 RANGZ, 3FMVP's and 4MVP'S >>>> Kobe 2-2 with 2 RANGZ, 2 FMVP's and 1MVP

It's not even close, chubbs.

[J Shuttlesworth]

3Ball is incredibly biased to the point where it's laughable. He ranks LeBron at like #15 all time under Barkley and Malone:roll: :roll:

[3ball]

3Ball is incredibly biased to the point where it's laughable. He ranks LeBron at like #15 all time under Barkley and Malone:roll: :roll:
The point is that Lebron's stats are better than Kobe's, but Lebron achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats yourself, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

[TheWinningFam]

The point is that Lebron's stats are better than Kobe's, but Lebron achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats yourself, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7
It also helps when you play with top 20 all time teammates.

Also 1-9

[aj1987]

This is how I view them...

Bron is a hammer
Kobe is a Swiss Army knife

Both can do the job, but it depends on what job you need done.

And like you alluded, the Swiss Army knife will be useful for more situations.
No wonder you made that shitty video with your terrible "analysis".


2005-2006 LeBron- 31.4/7.0/6.6, Melo- 26.5/4.9/2.7, and Wade- 27.2/5.7/6.7

3 elite players. Result- Bronze Medal in 2006 FIBA tournament. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

These clowns would have lost again in 2008 if Kobe didn't bail them out.
Wade was the best player in '08.

[3ball]

It also helps when you play with top 20 all time teammates.

Also 1-9
It's also helps to team-hop and play with 2 ready-made superstars like Lebron did twice, rather than stick with a team and foster improvement in teamwork and chemistry like Jordan and Kobe did.

In Jordan's case, he 3-peated with only 1 superstar, while also accomplishing the rare feat of building a team from lottery status into champions..

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So they were a LOTTERY roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster) - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[LilEddyCurry]

Anyone with a brain would know that 3******** would pick Kobe over LeBron due to two reasons:

1. LeBron poses more of a threat to Jordan than Kobe.
2. Kobe plays a very similar game to his man-crush.

[3ball]

Anyone with a brain would know that 3******** would pick Kobe over LeBron due to two reasons:

1. LeBron poses more of a threat to Jordan than Kobe.
2. Kobe plays a very similar game to his man-crush.
No, I prefer Kobe because even though Lebron's stats are better, he achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

Ultimately, NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats personally, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

[SouBeachTalents]

No, I prefer Kobe because even though Lebron's stats are better, he achieves those stats by reducing teammate stats - this is statistical (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) fact.

Otoh, Jordan (who had better stats than Lebron) and Kobe (who didn't) both achieve their stats WITHOUT reducing their teammates' stats...

Ultimately, NOT suppressing teammates' stats is often more important than accumulating stats personally, which is why they're 6/6 and 5/7, while Lebron is a losing 3/7

If LeBron won 5 titles with Shaq winning FMVP for 3 of them, there's no chance in hell you'd be propping up his Finals record. You'd just be spamming threads stating how much help he had.

[Dragonyeuw]

Unbelievebale. This forum is becoming a cesspit of stan homerism posting the same tired list of stats and redundant arguments. You can hardly find a thread that doesn't descend into the same tired BS as this one. How bout we all just recognize that MJ, Bron and Kobe are three of the great talents of the game and appreciate their contributions to the sport instead of the time wasted doing this daily back and forth shit? I mean, its ya'lls time to waste....but holy fcuk man.

[3ball]

If LeBron won 5 titles with Shaq winning FMVP for 3 of them, there's no chance in hell you'd be propping up his Finals record. You'd just be spamming threads stating how much help he had.


Kobe achieved goat team success with Shaq (3-peat), which Lebron failed to do with Wade and Bosh, even though "not 5, not 6, not 7" was expected upon teaming up with a top 2 SG and top 2 PF, who both had top 5 PER's.

Kobe also won 2 titles with Pau as his 2nd option, whereas Lebron needs a superstar wing to be 2nd option, since he reduces bigs like Pau/Bosh/Love into spot-up shooters.. Lebron wouldn't win shit with Pau as 2nd option spot-up shooter.

Kobe's superior success with big men is a great example of why he's the better basketball player - his more versatile scoring allows him to fit with any teammates and into any system, which enables the high brand of basketball and teamwork necessary to win consistently at the highest level (playoffs and Finals - 5/7 vs. 3/7).

[Im Still Ballin]

3ball used RETARD logic!

It's super effective!

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe achieved goat team success with Shaq (3-peat), which Lebron failed to do with Wade and Bosh, even though "not 5, not 6, not 7" was expected upon teaming up with a top 2 SG and top 2 PF, who both had top 5 PER's.

Kobe also won 2 titles with Pau as his 2nd option, whereas Lebron needs a superstar wing to be 2nd option, since he reduces bigs like Pau/Bosh/Love into spot-up shooters.. Lebron wouldn't win shit with Pau as 2nd option spot-up shooter.

Kobe's superior success with big men is a great example of why he's the better basketball player - his more versatile scoring allows him to fit with any teammates and into any system, which enables the high brand of basketball and teamwork necessary to win consistently at the highest level (playoffs and Finals - 5/7 vs. 3/7).

Nah, the biggest reason he's 5/7 is because Shaq was averaging 35/15 every Finals. Look at the scoring differences between Shaq & Kobe in the Finals during the 3peat, they're almost at Jordan/Pippen levels

[3ball]

Nah, the biggest reason he's 5/7 is because Shaq was averaging 35/15 every Finals. Look at the scoring differences between Shaq & Kobe in the Finals during the 3peat, they're almost at Jordan/Pippen levels


Would Shaq average 35/15 within Lebron-ball, which craters the stats of star big men in their prime?

Also, Kobe also won 2 titles with Pau as his 2nd option - otoh, Lebron needs a superstar WING to be 2nd option, since he reduces bigs like Pau/Bosh/Love into spot-up shooters.. Lebron wouldn't win shit with Pau as 2nd option spot-up shooter.

[K Xerxes]

Would Shaq average 35/15 within Lebron-ball, which craters the stats of star big men in their prime?

Also, Kobe also won 2 titles with Pau as his 2nd option - otoh, Lebron needs a superstar WING to be 2nd option, since he reduces bigs like Pau/Bosh/Love into spot-up shooters.. Lebron wouldn't win shit with Pau as 2nd option spot-up shooter.

The simple answer is no one knows. LeBron has never played with someone close to the level of peak Shaq. So we're left with useless speculation once again.

What we do know is that LeBron has led his teams to 3 rings as the induspitable best player, which only Jordan, Russell, Duncan and Kareem/Magic could argue to have achieved more.

[Mr Feeny]

2004 Olympics- Bronze Medal. Had prime Duncan.

2006 FIBA- Bronze Medal. Bran, Wade, and Melo were elite players already. 2005-2006 stats LeBron- 31.4/7.0/6.6, Melo- 26.5/4.9/2.7, and Wade- 27.2/5.7/6.7. Huge debacle.

2008 Olympics- Gold Medal. Kobe was the go to guy in crunch-time in the gold medal game against Spain.

2012 Olympics- Gold Medal.

So Bran is 0/2 without Kobe and 2/2 with Kobe. Team USA would have still won in 2012 without Kobe but they would lost to Spain in 2008 without him. Bran would be 1/4 instead of 2/4 if it wasn't for Kobe.

You cant be stupid enough to be believe that Kobe was better than Wade in 2008:oldlol:
Wade was tournament mvp AND the top scorer in the gold medal game on ridiculous efficient.

Lebron was the tournament mvp in 2012 and Kobe was abysmal.

Lebron can get on his knees and thank Wade and lethick for carrying him those years :lebronamazed:

[Mr Feeny]

The simple answer is no one knows. LeBron has never played with someone close to the level of peak Shaq. So we're left with useless speculation once again.

What we do know is that LeBron has led his teams to 3 rings as the induspitable best player, which only Jordan, Russell, Duncan and Kareem/Magic could argue to have achieved more.

And Shaq.

[Mr Feeny]

Unbelievebale. This forum is becoming a cesspit of stan homerism posting the same tired list of stats and redundant arguments. You can hardly find a thread that doesn't descend into the same tired BS as this one. How bout we all just recognize that MJ, Bron and Kobe are three of the great talents of the game and appreciate their contributions to the sport instead of the time wasted doing this daily back and forth shit? I mean, its ya'lls time to waste....but holy fcuk man.

2 of those are top 5 players all time and lead atleast 3 teams to the title as lead dog, won multiple mvps, are 1st and 2nd place respectively in career PER, VORP, playoff PER, playoff VORP.
The other...sticks out like a sore thumb and has never hit 47% in 20 seasons of basketball.
Whats to recognize?:oldlol: We just don't see Kobe as being on the same level of the greats.
That's about it. No shame in being a top 15 player.

[fourkicks44]

Unbelievebale. This forum is becoming a cesspit of stan homerism posting the same tired list of stats and redundant arguments. You can hardly find a thread that doesn't descend into the same tired BS as this one. How bout we all just recognize that MJ, Bron and Kobe are three of the great talents of the game and appreciate their contributions to the sport instead of the time wasted doing this daily back and forth shit? I mean, its ya'lls time to waste....but holy fcuk man.

Word.

I'm not going to be a part of it anymore. It is getting more ridiculous than ever.

[K Xerxes]

And Shaq.

Shaq was the best player for 3 rings, which is the same as Bron. I said 'more than 3 rings'.

Jordan - 91-93, 96-98
Russell - 7+ rings at least
Duncan - 99, 03, 05, 07 (+ arguably 14)
Kareem - 72, 80, arguably 82, arguably 85
Magic - arguably 82, arguably 85, 87, 88

[Dragonyeuw]

Word.

I'm not going to be a part of it anymore. It is getting more ridiculous than ever.

Yeah I think Im in the same boat. But that basically means not particiating in the forum, because theres very few threads that don't devolve into this kind of BS. Spending countless hours literally regurgitating the same arguments ad nauseum. There must be like 10 unique posters, and a bunch of alts agreeing with each other. I think we even have alts of the same poster arguing with each other. Hell, we have posters who you literally don't see anywhere but these threads. Its like they get a phone alert 'ISH: Jordan/ Lebron/ Kobe' and they turn up like clockwork.

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq was the best player for 3 rings, which is the same as Bron. I said 'more than 3 rings'.

Jordan - 91-93, 96-98
Russell - 7+ rings at least
Duncan - 99, 03, 05, 07 (+ arguably 14)
Kareem - 72, 80, arguably 82, arguably 85
Magic - arguably 82, arguably 85, 87, 88

Ah. Fair enough. But I don't think Duncan, Magic or Kareem have strong cases in my opinion.

You could argue that Kareem was the best player in 1980. Statistically, he certainly was. If so, that would put him at 3 fmvps and magic at 2.
If we want to argue that Magic was the best player in 85, we can't also give him 1980 for example.
Kareem's case is pretty tough to make as well because we have to give him 1980 and take it away from Magic AND another title as well.

Duncan might have been the best defensive player on the planet in 2007 but offensively he wasn't at his best was he?

I see what you're saying. We could ARGUE the case for each because it's not totally out of the question but those cases would be tenuous at best in my opinion.
As things stand, Shaq has more CLEAR CUT rings as lead dog than Kareem. It's also true that he certainly maxes out at 3 while Kareem could go up to 4 as you said.

[K Xerxes]

Ah. Fair enough. But I don't think Duncan, Magic or Kareem have strong cases in my opinion.

You could argue that Kareem was the best player in 1980. Statistically, he certainly was. If so, that would put him at 3 fmvps and magic at 2.
If we want to argue that Magic was the best player in 85, we can't also give him 1980 for example.
Kareem's case is pretty tough to make as well because we have to give him 1980 and take it away from Magic AND another title as well.

Duncan might have been the best defensive player on the planet in 2007 but offensively he wasn't at his best was he?

I see what you're saying. We could ARGUE the case for each because it's not totally out of the question but those cases would be tenuous at best in my opinion.
As things stand, Shaq has more CLEAR CUT rings as lead dog than Kareem. It's also true that he certainly maxes out at 3 while Kareem could go up to 4 as you said.

I meant best player on their team, hence leading their team to a ship. Duncan may not have been the NBA's best player in 07, but he was the leader and best player on the Spurs, even though parker won FMVP because they exploited a weak match up against the far over matched Cavs.

For Magic and Kareem, I think both should have ended up with 3 FMVPs. Kareem should have won 80 over Magic. But Magic should have won Worthy's FMVP. No question Worthy balled in game 7 with a 36 point triple double, but Magic put up 21-6-13 over the series on better efficiency. He deserved it overall. And regardless, he was the best player on that team by a clear margin.

So yeah both Magic and Kareem probably should have levelled out at 3 FMVPs, and I guess you could say they led their teams to 3 rings, arguably 4 or 2 each however you want to argue the Magic and Kareem dynamic.

[Mr Feeny]

I meant best player on their team, hence leading their team to a ship. Duncan may not have been the NBA's best player in 07, but he was the leader and best player on the Spurs, even though parker won FMVP because they exploited a weak match up against the far over matched Cavs.

For Magic and Kareem, I think both should have ended up with 3 FMVPs. Kareem should have won 80 over Magic. But Magic should have won Worthy's FMVP. No question Worthy balled in game 7 with a 36 point triple double, but Magic put up 21-6-13 over the series on better efficiency. He deserved it overall. And regardless, he was the best player on that team by a clear margin.

So yeah both Magic and Kareem probably should have levelled out at 3 FMVPs, and I guess you could say they led their teams to 3 rings, arguably 4 or 2 each however you want to argue the Magic and Kareem dynamic.

I don't disagree with any of that. If Lebron were to get one more and play as the clear cut best player, he could separate himself from this pack. Either way, I don't see anyone getting 6 fmvps in a long time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq was the best player for 3 rings, which is the same as Bron. I said 'more than 3 rings'.

Jordan - 91-93, 96-98
Russell - 7+ rings at least
Duncan - 99, 03, 05, 07 (+ arguably 14)
Kareem - 72, 80, arguably 82, arguably 85
Magic - arguably 82, arguably 85, 87, 88

:applause: Very knowledgeable poster. It's very close, but I'd give Magic the nod in '82 & '85.

In terms of best player for 3 titles, LeBron, Shaq, & Bird would join the list, Havlicek would have an argument as well ('68, '69, '74)

[3ball]

The simple answer is no one knows. LeBron has never played with someone close to the level of peak Shaq. So we're left with useless speculation once again.

What we do know is that LeBron has led his teams to 3 rings as the induspitable best player, which only Jordan, Russell, Duncan and Kareem/Magic could argue to have achieved more.


No one ever played with a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option.. No one ever team-hopped to play with 2 other superstars and had everyone thinking "not 5, not 6, not 7"

No one ever did these things - ultimately, the excess supporting talent that resulted from Lebron's team-hopping is why his teams could weather his FACTUAL reduction of teammate stats to win a few rings.

But Kobe didn't achieve his stats by reducing his teammate stats, so Lebron's statistical edges mean nothing, just like his team-hopped rings mean nothing.. Would we give Hakeem props if he employed a stat-padding, losing style, but then teamed up with 2 other superstars twice so he can win a few rings?... Of course not.. But the modern cupcake era, that crap flies.

[aj1987]

0ball is basically a retarded spam bot. Dude has never actually watched, heck, or even touched a basketball in his entire life.

Cherrypicking + copy&paste + spamming. That's basically 0ball's posting style.

[SouBeachTalents]

0ball is basically a retarded spam bot. Dude has never actually watched, heck, or even touched a basketball in his entire life.

Cherrypicking + copy&paste + spamming. That's basically 0ball's posting style.

That's basically his lifestyle too