Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG, APG, and role

[3ball]

.
Specifically, Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %...... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-16'):.. 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)




So it's a fact:

Lebron's teammates can't play to full capacity or role alongside him, which is why he must seek excessive supporting talent via team-hopping to overcome the decline in teammates.

Since Lebron reduces teammates' stats and role, his statistical advantage over guys like Kobe or Bird mean nothing.

Kobe didn't reduce teammates' stats, which is why he won 2 rings by getting the most out of Pau as a 2nd option.. Otoh, Lebron wouldn't win shit by reducing Pau into a floor-spreader like Bosh and Love - that's why he needs a superstar wing like Kyrie/Wade to pick up the slack at 2nd option, while a guy like Pau is THIRD option.. Lebron simply needs excessive supporting talent to overcome his reduction of his teammates' stats and role.
.

[Dray n Klay]

Wade without LeBron 2009-2010

26/5/5




Wade with LeBron in 2010-2011

25/5/5





So Wade got the same stats with LeBron than without



100% optimal teamwork

[warriorfan]

Wade without LeBron 2009-2010

26/5/5




Wade with LeBron in 2010-2011

25/5/5





So Wade got the same stats with LeBron than without



100% optimal teamwork

2011 Finals

https://s32.postimg.org/bowhsnljp/Wade2011_Finals.png

I wouldn't exactly call this "optimal teamwork"

[Dray n Klay]

Kyrie without LeBron 2013-2014


21/6/4 on 43% FG




Kyrie with LeBron 2014-2015



22/5/4 on 46% FG




So Kyrie was BEYOND 100% optimal with LeBron


LeBron elevated Kyrie, as Kyrie got better production as a 2nd option, than what he did as a 1st option.




Jordan never made a teammate achieve BETTER stats as a 2nd option, than what they did previously as a 1st option.

[3ball]

Wade without LeBron 2009-2010

26/5/5


Wade with LeBron in 2010-2011

25/5/5


................................................AP G, ASSIST %...... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)




The stats show that Wade's playmaking (APG) was reduced alongside Lebron, and he was turned into a play-finisher (higher assisted rate).. Wade could not play to full capacity alongside Lebron, which is why the Heat underachieved and only went 2/4, instead of "not 5, not 6, not 7" as expected.

It's actually well-known statistical fact that the Heat were a better team when just Wade [B]OR Lebron was on the floor, not both.

[TheWinningFam]

2011 Finals

https://s32.postimg.org/bowhsnljp/Wade2011_Finals.png

I wouldn't exactly call this "optimal teamwork"
That's optimal teamwork, we know this because had wade not missplayed late in game 4, the heat would have headed back to miami with a 3-2 lead at worse. and a chance to clinch the title in game 5.

[3ball]

That's optimal teamwork, we know this because had wade not missplayed late in game 4, the heat would have headed back to miami with a 3-2 lead at worse. and a chance to clinch the title in game 5.


Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance (2/4 in Miami) and losing as the favorite (2009-2011).

[Dray n Klay]

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance (2/4 in Miami) and losing as the favorite (2009-2011).


3ball hasn't updated his copy-paste spreadsheet

:lebronamazed: :yaohappy:












Oh and beating a 73 win team with no all-stars >> going 1-9 with no all-stars

[TheWinningFam]

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance (2/4 in Miami) and losing as the favorite (2009-2011).
It is required that lebron be the team's best Scorer passer rebounder and defender in order for his team to win, otoh jordan has never had this task and at most had to score more.
Think about it, Lebron had to Lead both teams in every statistical category for 2 straight finals to go 1/2 against a team (73-9) better than any team jordan faced in his 6 finals, all with ZERO all stars, ordan didn't accomplish this feat once, this was due to having a superior supporting cast + facing weaker competition.

[3ball]

It is required that lebron be the team's best Scorer passer rebounder



Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists... :eek:... So the only category where Lebron leads is defensive rebounds:



PLAYOFFS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD



Jordan:. 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS THRU 31 YEARS OLD



Jordan:I 43.9 pts..N 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER
Lebron:. 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER




FINALS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD:



Jordan Finals:. 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg
Lebron Finals:. 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg






Lebron had to Lead both teams in every statistical category


That's nice, but Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists.. So the only category where Lebron leads is defensive rebounds.

Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Finally, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - he came back and won the series by ONE POSSESSION by averaging 36 ppg in the last 3 games.. Obviously, if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory.





Lebron won with ZERO all stars


So did Jordan in 1991, except Jordan's stats were far better - more scoring and more assists with far better shooting and per possession efficiency.

Not even close tbh





Jordan had superior supporting cast and faced weaker competition.


Btw, we know Jordan had a weaker supporting cast because his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 25-33% more scoring and greater APG..

And we know he faced superior competition, since his rings required him to defeat TWICE (http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg) the number of 50-win teams as Lebron in less games (179 playoff games to Lebron's 199).
.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[TheWinningFam]

That's nice, but Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists.. So the only category where Lebron leads is defensive rebounds.

Also, Jordan's 36/7/8 in 91-93' Finals is superior because he scored 15 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 2 ppg for Lebron, so Jordan faced greater defensive attention.

Finally, Lebron needed a 7th game because he only averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games - he came back and won the series by ONE POSSESSION by averaging 36 ppg in the last 3 games.. Obviously, if he'd averaged 36 ppg for the ENTIRE series like Jordan did in 91-93' Finals, he wouldn't need a 7th game and would've had a bigger margin of victory.

Lebron needed a 7th game because he played a better team than anything jordan faced, we know this because the warriors went 73-9 in a tougher conference than jordan's and 12-5 in a tougher playoff's than jordan's
Hold my dvck.

[bigkingsfan]

Ordan had the top 25 player of all time during his runs, an improvement over 1-9.

[3ball]

Lebron needed a 7th game because he played a better team than anything jordan faced, we know this because the warriors went 73-9 in a tougher conference than jordan's and 12-5 in a tougher playoff's than jordan's
Hold my dvck.


The team with the best regular season record and all the accolades FREQUENTLY loses in the higher competition playoffs, so regular season performance is a very poor gauge of all-time greatness.

Also, the 2016 Warriors were injured in the playoffs and only went 15-9, compared to 73-9 in regular season - so many teams from previous eras would've beaten their injured team, especially considering their attack was too reliant on 3-pointers and capable of being shut down by physical 80's/90's style defense and superior rebounding that we saw vs. OKC and CLE.. The physical style used in prior eras is the exact style that serves as the Warriors' kryptonite.

Btw, we know Jordan had a weaker supporting cast because his first 3 rings required (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) 25-33% more scoring and greater APG.. And we know he faced superior competition, since his rings required him to defeat TWICE (http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg) the number of 50-win teams as Lebron in less games (179 playoff games to Lebron's 199).
.

[aj1987]

tl;dr - Ordan was a shot jacking ball hog.

[LilEddyCurry]

LeBron turned two playoff virgins into champions and also carried them to the finals the year before.

[3ball]

LeBron turned two playoff virgins into champions


Lebron never won a championship without teaming up with 2 other superstars, so he never turned any playoff virgin into a champion.

Otoh, Jordan DID carry a lottery team to a championship.. In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster in 1989, that he carried to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster).





and also carried them to the finals the year before.


Lebron didn't carry the 2015 Cavs to the Finals because Kyrie didn't get hurt UNTIL the Finals - so Lebron didn't carry anything.

He did carry the 2007 Cavs to the Finals, but that was due to a worst-ever conference that allowed him to average a pathetic 25 ppg on 41% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF - these would be among the worst stats of MJ's career and wouldn't get him out of the 1st Round, let alone make the Finals..

Lebron's weak conference is also why his Finals appearances were achieved by beating HALF (http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg) the 50-win teams that MJ & Kobe beat.

Overall, Jordan just had the tougher road - the stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) show that he needed to score 25-33% more for his first 3 rings than Lebron needed for his 3 rings, while also getting more assists, less turnovers and better efficiency.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron never won a championship without teaming up with 2 other superstars, so he never turned any playoff virgin into a champion

:biggums: Kyrie & Love never made the playoffs before LeBron

[3ball]

:biggums: Kyrie & Love never made the playoffs before LeBron


Lebron never turned a lottery team into a champion without TEAMING UP with other superstars to do it, specifically 2014 All-NBA player Kevin Love, or top 5 PER Bosh (26/13 and 24/11 players, top 2 PF's).

Otoh, Jordan DID carry a lottery team to a championship without team-hopping.. In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster in 1989, that he carried to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster).

[Trollsmasher]

a player who takes on a big role decreases the less efficient output of other players

whoa


:lol

[MP.Trey]

He also leads them to championships... so I'd say they cancel each other out.

[MP.Trey]

Lebron never won a championship without teaming up with 2 other superstars, so he never turned any playoff virgin into a champion.

Otoh, Jordan DID carry a lottery team to a championship.. In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster in 1989, that he carried to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster).

They won 50 games the previous year. And made the playoffs the two years prior to that while being 30-52 (Yes, they made the playoffs going 30 and f*ckng 52) and 40-42.

As soon as they starting giving Pippen and Grant major playing time that they deserved, the Bulls actually got WORSE in 1989. Going from 50 wins down to 47 with the same roster but a better Pippen/Grant, Bill Cartwright, etc.

Even when barely winning 30 games, Jordan wasn't in danger of being in the lottery due to his weak conference at the time. Quit spreading lies.

[Jasper]

OP forgot that Lebron is a point forward.....

Shame shame on you :no:

[zeerghit]

.
Specifically, Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %...... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (15'-16'):.. 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)




So it's a fact:

Lebron's teammates can't play to full capacity or role alongside him, which is why he must seek excessive supporting talent via team-hopping to overcome the decline in teammates.

Since Lebron reduces teammates' stats and role, his statistical advantage over guys like Kobe or Bird mean nothing.

Kobe didn't reduce teammates' stats, which is why he won 2 rings by getting the most out of Pau as a 2nd option.. Otoh, Lebron wouldn't win shit by reducing Pau into a floor-spreader like Bosh and Love - that's why he needs a superstar wing like Kyrie/Wade to pick up the slack at 2nd option, while a guy like Pau is THIRD option.. Lebron simply needs excessive supporting talent to overcome his reduction of his teammates' stats and role.
.

u forgot one think, can u remind me the RECORD without\with lebron heat and cavs, thanks.

[3ball]

As soon as they starting giving Pippen and Grant major playing time that they deserved, the Bulls actually got WORSE in 1989. Going from 50 wins down to 47 with the same roster but a better Pippen/Grant, Bill Cartwright, etc.


That shows how garbage Pippen and Grant were in 1989 - they Bulls had a WORSE record because they couldn't offset the veteran Charles Oakley's impact from 1988 (who was now on the Knicks).

Specifically, Pippen only averaged 14/6 in regular season and 10/5 in ECF vs Detroit, so he was garbage.. Compare that to Oakley's 12/13 in 1988 (led league in rebounding and played stellar D).





Even when barely winning 30 games, Jordan wasn't in danger of being in the lottery due to his weak conference at the time. Quit spreading lies.


That's WITH Jordan - without Jordan, they don't even win 30 and miss the playoffs.

That's similar to 1989, where the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster in 1989, that he carried to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster).

Btw, the 30 games was a statistical anomaly/fluke - the 80's East had 2-3 championship caliber teams every single year and is widely regarded as the toughest conference of all time.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron never won a championship without teaming up with 2 other superstars, so he never turned any playoff virgin into a champion.

Otoh, Jordan DID carry a lottery team to a championship.. In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster in 1989, that he carried to a 3-peat beginning in 1991 (exact same roster).



Lebron didn't carry the 2015 Cavs to the Finals because Kyrie didn't get hurt UNTIL the Finals - so Lebron didn't carry anything.

He did carry the 2007 Cavs to the Finals, but that was due to a worst-ever conference that allowed him to average a pathetic 25 ppg on 41% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF - these would be among the worst stats of MJ's career and wouldn't get him out of the 1st Round, let alone make the Finals..

Lebron's weak conference is also why his Finals appearances were achieved by beating HALF (http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg) the 50-win teams that MJ & Kobe beat.

Overall, Jordan just had the tougher road - the stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) show that he needed to score 25-33% more for his first 3 rings than Lebron needed for his 3 rings, while also getting more assists, less turnovers and better efficiency.
Kyrie missed games 2 AND 3 of the ECF due to injury and played 21mins in game 4.

Cavs won game 2 AND 3 w/o Kyrie in route to sweeping the 60 win Hawks.

[3ball]

u forgot one think, can u remind me the RECORD without\with lebron heat and cavs, thanks.


The 2011 Cavs lost half their team - this includes Shaq, Varejao, Mo Williams, Zydrunas and Delonte, who accounted for 52 ppg, or more than half the Cavs points.. So you can't give credit to Lebron's 30 ppg but ignore the 52 ppg of Shaq/Mo/Varejao/Delonte/Zydrunas.

Regarding the 2014 Heat - they were blown away by the biggest margin in history and were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference team AT BEST, before falling to lottery in 2015 due to Wade/Bosh injuries.. Falling from 1st Round Western Conference team to lottery because of injury isn't that bad.

So the 2011 Cavs lost half their team, and the 2015 Heat lost their 2 best players to injury and were only a 1st Round Western Conference caliber the prior year anyway.. These declines aren't NEARLY as big as the Bulls falling from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team in 1994, and then near-lottery in 1995... The Bulls fell from 3-peat dynasty to lottery AGAIN in 1999 after Jordan's 2nd retirement.

[Bigsmoke]

The 2011 Cavs lost half their team - this includes Shaq, Varejao, Mo Williams, Zydrunas and Delonte, who accounted for 52 ppg, or more than half the Cavs points.. So you can't give credit to Lebron's 30 ppg but ignore the 52 ppg of Shaq/Mo/Varejao/Delonte/Zydrunas.

Regarding the 2014 Heat - they were blown away by the biggest margin in history and were a 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference team AT BEST, before falling to lottery in 2015 due to Wade/Bosh injuries.. Falling from 1st Round Western Conference team to lottery because of injury isn't that bad.

So the 2011 Cavs lost half their team, and the 2015 Heat lost their 2 best players to injury and were only a 1st Round Western Conference caliber the prior year anyway.. These declines aren't NEARLY as big as the Bulls falling from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team in 1994, and then near-lottery in 1995... The Bulls fell from 3-peat dynasty to lottery AGAIN in 1999 after Jordan's 2nd retirement.

A big chunk of that 27 game losing streak was with mo and Anderson Varejao in that roster.

Shaq was only playing 20 minutes a night, cant play back to backs, very injury-prone, and was a super liability on defense because of his lack of speed. How the hell they get worse without him on the roster if lebron wasn't their carrying the load. big Z was done too, he went to Miami with lebron and barely did shit.


And look at the heat's record before bosh went down

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201502110CLE.html

[Hey Yo]

The 4yrs James was gone from Cleveland, the Cavs had the worst W-L record in the league over that time.

When MJ quit the first time, the Bulls win 2 less games with 6th rounder 'Pete Myers' taking over MJ's starting role.

[tpols]

The 4yrs James was gone from Cleveland, the Cavs had the worst W-L record in the league over that time.

When MJ quit the first time, the Bulls win 2 less games with 6th rounder 'Pete Myers' taking over MJ's starting role.

after multiple losses w/ HCA, Lebron left his team high and dry with "the decision" .. and only came back when they had a budding star, and was promised to land another all NBA caliber player of his handpicking. MJ, otoh, led his squad to a 3 peat championship, and from his work was carved a spurs like, tight knit squad that could thrive w/o him on chemistry and discipline alone.

You're basically giving Lebron credit for losing and ruining the franchise in that moment, while chastizing Jordan for building something great.

[Da_Realist]

after multiple losses w/ HCA, Lebron left his team high and dry with "the decision" .. and only came back when they had a budding star, and was promised to land another all NBA caliber player of his handpicking. MJ, otoh, led his squad to a 3 peat championship, and from his work was carved a spurs like, tight knit squad that could thrive w/o him on chemistry and discipline alone.

You're basically giving Lebron credit for losing and ruining the franchise in that moment, while chastizing Jordan for building something great.

Cleveland, like Miami, was all about Lebron. He has to do everything because that's how he plays. So of course his teams will fall apart without him.

[Hey Yo]

after multiple losses w/ HCA, Lebron left his team high and dry with "the decision" .. and only came back when they had a budding star, and was promised to land another all NBA caliber player of his handpicking.
LeBron left due to playing with a revolving door of shit that rounded out the starting 5 for his first 7 seasons. He came back to a franchise who just put up the worst W-L totals over the last 4yrs.

How can you be promised an All-NBA caliber player before you even sign yourself? Did James put a gun to Minnesota's GM's head and make him trade Love before he even told the media he was coming home?



MJ, otoh, led his squad to a 3 peat championship, and from his work was carved a spurs like, tight knit squad that could thrive w/o him on chemistry and discipline alone.
From Phil's and MJ's work who had the luxury of having the same young SF and PF to run the triangle with. Phil's the one who had to convince MJ that "MJ ball wasn't working" in order for it to work.


You're basically giving Lebron credit for losing and ruining the franchise in that moment, while chastizing Jordan for building something great.
Both situations couldn't be further apart in comparison.

James played 7yrs with a revolving door of starters. He wanted to play with better talent and even tried to get Bosh to come to Cleveland. No great UFA's willfully sign with Cleveland. You can't ruin something that was already ruined looooooong before you got there.

MJ played 3yrs (not counting injury season) and then signed a 8yr 25mil dollar which was huge at that time. He went for the money first and then thought a winning titles 2nd.

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=3ball This type of ball monopolization is why Lebron has always reduced (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) his teammates' APG and playmaking independence, while increasing their assisted rate and therefore dependence on his dime - his welfare treatment of teammates is why guys like JR/Delly/Shump/Jones collapsed without him on the floor in 2015 Finals (0/18), while their reduced roles were too predictable on the Finals level WITH him on the floor (56/171.. 33%).[/QUOTE]

You seriously are so full of shit. You literally use any argument against LeBron. Teammates did well, LeBron had more help. Teammates didn't do well, LeBron craters their stats and monopolized the ball. I'm sure if you give Jordan the killer lineup of JR/Delly/Shump/Jones they'd light up the scoreboard

[3ball]

Cleveland, like Miami, was all about Lebron. He has to do everything because that's how he plays. So of course his teams will fall apart without him.


Statistically, MJ did everything too - his first 3 rings (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists.. The real difference is that MJ's superior stats were achieved without diminishing his teammates' stats or their playmaking role, which allowed his teams to have superior teamwork and play to full capacity (never lost series with hca).
.

[TheWinningFam]

Statistically, MJ did everything too - his first 3 rings (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416369) required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists.. The real difference is that MJ's superior stats were achieved without diminishing his teammates' stats or their playmaking role, which allowed his teams to have superior teamwork and play to full capacity (never lost series with hca).
.
The difference is lebron played with 0 allstars or top 25 all time players in 2015 or 2016, otoh, jordan had a GOAT wingman and allstar,
Your copy and paste mental gymnastics are hilarious.

[TheWinningFam]

his Statistically, MJ did everything too - his first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists.. The real difference is that MJ's superior stats were achieved without diminishing his teammates' stats or their playmaking role, which allowed his teams to have superior teamwork and play to full capacity (never lost series with hca).

The 2015 Finals is a good example regarding teamwork - it was impossible for Lebron's teammates to play well when his time of possession was an extraordinary 12.0 minutes, or 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes..

This type of ball monopolization is why Lebron has always reduced his teammates' APG and playmaking independence, while increasing their assisted rate and therefore dependence on his dime - his welfare treatment of teammates is why guys like JR/Delly/Shump/Jones collapsed without him on the floor in 2015 Finals (0/18), while their reduced roles were too predictable on the Finals level WITH him on the floor (56/171.. 33%).
.
The difference is lebron played with 0 allstars or top 25 all time players in 2015 or 2016, otoh, jordan had a GOAT wingman and allstar,
Your copy and paste mental gymnastics are hilarious.

[3ball]

You seriously are so full of shit. You literally use any argument against LeBron. Teammates did well, LeBron had more help. Teammates didn't do well, LeBron craters their stats and monopolized the ball. I'm sure if you give Jordan the killer lineup of JR/Delly/Shump/Jones they'd light up the scoreboard


It was impossible for Lebron's teammates to play well when his time of possession was an extraordinary 12.0 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes, or 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes..

This type of ball monopolization is why Lebron has always reduced (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) his teammates' APG and playmaking independence, while increasing their assisted rate and therefore dependence on his dime - his welfare treatment of teammates is why guys like JR/Delly/Shump/Jones collapsed without him on the floor in 2015 Finals (0/18), while their reduced roles were too predictable on the Finals level WITH him on the floor (56/171.. 33%).

[SouBeachTalents]

It was impossible for Lebron's teammates to play well when his time of possession was an extraordinary 12.0 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes, or 50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes..

This type of ball monopolization is why Lebron has always reduced (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416393) his teammates' APG and playmaking independence, while increasing their assisted rate and therefore dependence on his dime - his welfare treatment of teammates is why guys like JR/Delly/Shump/Jones collapsed without him on the floor in 2015 Finals (0/18), while their reduced roles were too predictable on the Finals level WITH him on the floor (56/171.. 33%).

But when they do play well, you do this

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411790

So literally every situation, he gets criticized

[3ball]

But when they do play well, you do this

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411790

So literally every situation, he gets criticized


That isn't "well", as you describe it... That's better than Pippen ever did

[aj1987]

Ordan is a dad killing shot jacker.
Agreed, 0ball. :cheers:

[Chokefree]

3ball hasn't updated his copy-paste spreadsheet

:lebronamazed: :yaohappy:












Oh and beating a 73 win team with no all-stars >> going 1-9 with no all-stars

Excuse me bitch who said you can speak? Go back and finish cleaning my toilet and shining my shoes peasant..

[Dray n Klay]

Excuse me bitch who said you can speak? Go back and finish cleaning my toilet and shining my shoes peasant..

Nigel, make me some fries