The most biased and inconsistent argument used in basketball

[K Xerxes]

It amazes me how many times I log onto this forum and see this horribly contradictory argument presented by biased posters:

Player X won a championship, but because some of his team mates actually performed well, he had too much help.

However, when player X's team mates don't perform, it is because of player X's inability to mesh with team mates, poor team chemistry, ball-hogging, shooting too much. Whatever it is.

In essence, player X is in a catch-22 situation and literally cannot win, regardless of what they do. Player X receives no credit if his team mates perform, and receives all the blame if his team mates perform poorly.

Similarly, stans will use the opposite argument to pile praise on their favourite player for his team mates' performance, while chastising team mates for any poor play.

Is there no appreciation that the answer is somewhere in the middle? Great players are not in direct control of how their team mates play, but they can contribute to it both on and off the court. By playmaking, motivating and leading by example. These are all factors which are mostly ignored

And, to answer the most pressing question in your mind of who exactly player X is... it is all great players in NBA history. I make no distinction between Kobe and LeBron and whoever else here.

[Kblaze8855]

When it comes down to it every argument can be made to sound foolish coming from a person you know has no objectivity. You begin your thought process looking to make someone look good or bad....not just...whatever they are....you will twist the most rational argument to an extreme that makes you look like an idiot.

[Bankaii]

The people with agendas are pretty obvious to spot.
But for anyone that watches the game it's pretty obvious when a player is the main factor in his team winning/losing, and his teammates performing well/poorly.

I know you left out names to keep stans from having a war, but just as an example Love in the 2016 Finals was no ones fault but his own. Even Lue implemented him into the system pretty well. Love just played well below his standards.

[TheWinningFam]

Think about it, This argument is used against lebron the most, we know this because he never lost when his teammates performed at a high level While he was the first option. As the first option anytime lebron lost was due to inferior teamplay due to injuries/fatigue..

[K Xerxes]

I know you left out names to keep stans from having a war, but just as an example Love in the 2016 Finals was no ones fault but his own. Even Lue implemented him into the system pretty well. Love just played well below his standards.

I disagree. The dramatic fall-off in Love's production between his Minnesota days and Cleveland is partly his fault, but quite clearly a result of the system too, especially with LeBron playing. It was a trade off that Cavs had to make for the sake of the team - limit Love's touches and also Love's position in the post for LeBron to be more effective facilitating shooters and allowing Thompson to feast on offensive putbacks. A similar thing happened with Bosh so it's not just their fault.

There's no issue since the Cavs won and are a legitimate contender - it was the best decision to maximise LeBron and Kyrie's production in expense of Love's. The problem with packing offensive talent on one team is that someone's production has to take a hit. And when they get less touches it's harder for them to get into rhythm.

Now this is looking at it on a context basis. To take LeBron though, you can't blame him for Love's poor production and then also say he had too much help from Kyrie and the rest of his team mates from 3. That doesn't make sense.

[3ball]

I disagree. The dramatic fall-off in Love's production between his Minnesota days and Cleveland is partly his fault, but quite clearly a result of the system too, especially with LeBron playing. It was a trade off that Cavs had to make for the sake of the team - limit Love's touches and also Love's position in the post for LeBron to be more effective facilitating shooters and allowing Thompson to feast on offensive putbacks. A similar thing happened with Bosh so it's not just their fault.


gimme a break - Love was an 8 ppg nobody in the Finals, after being an All-NBA player in 2014 who averaged 26/13..

there's no excuse for this level of drop-off, which was similar to bosh's.

look at pippen and grant - there stats didn't drop off at all despite being alongside the goat scorer.. jordan's quick-decision, off-ball style should get super-duper credit for that.. otoh, you're making excuses despite lebron's long-decision, ball-monopolizing style staring you in the face.





Now this is looking at it on a context basis. To take LeBron though, you can't blame him for Love's poor production and then also say he had too much help from Kyrie and the rest of his team mates from 3. That doesn't make sense.


The problem is that Lebron lowers his teammates' APG and assist %, which reduces the team's capacity for championship-level teamwork and reduces the integrity of his own stats - he'll never win at the highest level as consistently as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, or other players that didn't reduce teammates stats or playmaking role.

[SouBeachTalents]

The problem is that Lebron lowers his teammates' APG and assist %, which reduces the team's capacity for championship-level teamwork and reduces the integrity of his own stats - he'll never win at the highest level as consistently as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, or other players that didn't reduce teammates stats or playmaking role.

He's won as many titles as Bird, and more titles as his team's best player than Kobe

[warriorfan]

Kevin Love is a superstar

Kevin Love pre-LeBron put up 26/12.5/4.4/on 59% TS

Here is a list of players who have achieved that feat

https://s32.postimg.org/g9918d2pf/Kevin_Love_Ho_F.png

The only players who have ever managed to do it is Kevin Love and Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar

It's pretty safe to say that Kevin Love pre-LeBron was a superstar

Coincidentally Kevin Love stopped performing at a superstar level as soon as he started playing with LeBron

Coincidentally this is the exact thing that happened when Chris Bosh played with LeBron

Therefore we can determine that LeBron-Ball has a diminishing effect on his teammates effectiveness, lowering the potential of his team below the actual level of the team's true talent

[TheWinningFam]

Kevin Love is a superstar

Kevin Love pre-LeBron put up 26/12.5/4.4/on 59% TS

Here is a list of players who have achieved that feat

https://s32.postimg.org/g9918d2pf/Kevin_Love_Ho_F.png

The only players who have ever managed to do it is Kevin Love and Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar

It's pretty safe to say that Kevin Love pre-LeBron was a superstar

Coincidentally Kevin Love stopped performing at a superstar level as soon as he started playing with LeBron

Coincidentally this is the exact thing that happened when Chris Bosh played with LeBron

Therefore we can determine that LeBron-Ball has a diminishing effect on his teammates effectiveness, lowering the potential of his team below the actual level of the team's true talent
So you're saying kevin love should have put up first option numbers as a third option on a better team with tougher competition in the finals.

[bigkingsfan]

Cavs big three outscored Warriors big three.

[VIP2000]

Kevin Love is a superstar

Kevin Love pre-LeBron put up 26/12.5/4.4/on 59% TS

Here is a list of players who have achieved that feat

https://s32.postimg.org/g9918d2pf/Kevin_Love_Ho_F.png

The only players who have ever managed to do it is Kevin Love and Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar

It's pretty safe to say that Kevin Love pre-LeBron was a superstar

Coincidentally Kevin Love stopped performing at a superstar level as soon as he started playing with LeBron

Coincidentally this is the exact thing that happened when Chris Bosh played with LeBron

Therefore we can determine that LeBron-Ball has a diminishing effect on his teammates effectiveness, lowering the potential of his team below the actual level of the team's true talent

Can you really be a superstar if you fail to lead your team to the playoffs in your first 6 seasons in the league?

And Love's numbers are gonna drop because he went from a 1st option on a mediocre/bad team to a 3rd option on a good team. Kinda like how Glen Rice's numbers dropped when he joined Kobe/Shaq.

[warriorfan]

So you're saying kevin love should have put up first option numbers as a third option on a better team with tougher competition in the finals.
I'm saying when a 26/12 Hall of Fame level player get relegated to 8 point per game role player, the brand of basketball has to be examined as a cause

Considering the exact same thing happened with Chris Bosh not too long ago, I'm afraid this is more than just a coincidence

[bigkingsfan]

Kinda like how Glen Rice's numbers dropped when he joined Kobe/Shaq.
Malone/Payton


I'm saying when a 26/12 Hall of Fame level player get relegated to 8 point per game role player, the brand of basketball has to be examined as a cause

Considering the exact same thing happened with Chris Bosh not too long ago, I'm afraid this is more than just a coincidence
How did Curry do in the finals?

[VIP2000]

I'm saying when a 26/12 Hall of Fame level player get relegated to 8 point per game role player, the brand of basketball has to be examined as a cause

Considering the exact same thing happened with Chris Bosh not too long ago, I'm afraid this is more than just a coincidence

Well, Bosh also went from a 1st option on a bad team to a 3rd option on a good team. Use your head.

No 3rd option is gonna score 24 or 25 ppg.

[TheWinningFam]

I'm saying when a 26/12 Hall of Fame level player get relegated to 8 point per game role player, the brand of basketball has to be examined as a cause

Considering the exact same thing happened with Chris Bosh not too long ago, I'm afraid this is more than just a coincidence
Exactly, by saying that you're implying that a player should be putting up first option numbers on a bad team on a good team as the third option..

[GrapeApe]

I'm saying when a 26/12 Hall of Fame level player get relegated to 8 point per game role player, the brand of basketball has to be examined as a cause

Considering the exact same thing happened with Chris Bosh not too long ago, I'm afraid this is more than just a coincidence

It's also not a coincidence that Love and Bosh both went from being 1st options to being 3rd options. That can't be it though, right? Has to be Lebron.

[warriorfan]

Can you really be a superstar if you fail to lead your team to the playoffs in your first 6 seasons in the league?

Of course you can. You are not considering strength of team and strength of conference while you are implementing your arbitrary criteria

For one Kevin Love would of made the playoffs if he was playing in the Eastern Conference1

For two Kevin Love's Timberwolf teams were atrocious. Trying to pin not making the playoffs solely on Kevin Love is extremely foolish.



And Love's numbers are gonna drop because he went from a 1st option on a mediocre/bad team to a 3rd option on a good team. Kinda like how Glen Rice's numbers dropped when he joined Kobe/Shaq.
Poor example. Glen Rice was 31 years old and already on the decline before he even joined the Lakers2. His lower scoring was a function of a natural decline of a player, not being stifled by Kobe and Shaq.



References:
1. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2014.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html
(Note that if Minnesota was playing in the lesser Eastern Conference, they would of made the playoffs)

2. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/ricegl01.html

[TheWinningFam]

Of course you can. You are not considering strength of team and strength of conference while you are implementing your arbitrary criteria

For one Kevin Love would of made the playoffs if he was playing in the Eastern Conference1

For two Kevin Love's Timberwolf teams were atrocious. Trying to pin not making the playoffs solely on Kevin Love is extremely foolish.


Poor example. Glen Rice was 31 years old and already on the decline before he even joined the Lakers2. His lower scoring was a function of a natural decline of a player, not being stifled by Kobe and Shaq.



References:
1. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2014.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html
(Note that if Minnesota was playing in the lesser Eastern Conference, they would of made the playoffs)

2. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/ricegl01.html

Still implying that kevin love/bosh should put up first option bad team numbers as a 3rd option on a better team.

We'll just wait for the warriors to start next season, i'll ban bet that draymond/thompson wont put up the same production they did last year this is because they will go from being 2nd/3r options to 3rd causing a drop in production.

[TommyGriffin]

So you guys are telling me LeBron had a Hall of Fame 1st option player as his 3rd option twice now?

Stacked!

[TheWinningFam]

So you guys are telling me LeBron had a Hall of Fame 1st option player as his 3rd option twice now?

Stacked!
2 hall of famers that didn't even win in the playoffs on their respective teams before teaming up with lebron :lol

[TommyGriffin]

2 hall of famers that didn't even win in the playoffs on their respective teams before teaming up with lebron :lol
Warriorfan in his post above explained how Kevin Love would of made the playoffs if he was playing in the easier Eastern Conference.

[TheWinningFam]

Warriorfan in his post above explained how Kevin Love would of made the playoffs if he was playing in the easier Eastern Conference.
If he was playing in the eastern conference, their schedule would have been completely different.

We don't know if they would have made the playoffs because it didn't happen, what we do know is that he didn't, therefore we can distinguish between how we think something will play out in your head and how it went in reality warriorfan.

[Bankaii]

I disagree. The dramatic fall-off in Love's production between his Minnesota days and Cleveland is partly his fault, but quite clearly a result of the system too, especially with LeBron playing. It was a trade off that Cavs had to make for the sake of the team - limit Love's touches and also Love's position in the post for LeBron to be more effective facilitating shooters and allowing Thompson to feast on offensive putbacks. A similar thing happened with Bosh so it's not just their fault.

There's no issue since the Cavs won and are a legitimate contender - it was the best decision to maximise LeBron and Kyrie's production in expense of Love's. The problem with packing offensive talent on one team is that someone's production has to take a hit. And when they get less touches it's harder for them to get into rhythm.

Now this is looking at it on a context basis. To take LeBron though, you can't blame him for Love's poor production and then also say he had too much help from Kyrie and the rest of his team mates from 3. That doesn't make sense.
I agree with you in the fact that Love in 2015 was partly Lebron's fault, and Bosh to an extent.
But I'm speaking specifically on the Finals, where Love was getting open 3 and good looks in the post and just was missing due to Draymond's defense.

Same with Bosh, in 2011 he was a really solid player and for a 3rd option his numbers looked good. There were times where Lebron/Wade shut him out though.
But him putting up an egg in a game 7 of the Finals was not Lebron's fault, just like Love being trash in the Finals.

[TommyGriffin]

If he was playing in the eastern conference, their schedule would have been completely different.

You are right, their schedule would have been completely different, it would have been easier!

[tpols]

it's a perfectly logical argument, as is the comparison of competition.

[TheWinningFam]

You are right, their schedule would have been completely different, it would have been easier!

We don't know if they would have won more games if their schedule was easier because it didn't happen.
What we do know is that they didn't make the playoffs.
Do you understand this warriorfan?

[LostCause]

The argument that as a 3rd option Love shouldn't be expected to put up 1st option numbers is valid. There's really no point arguing that, some systems are able to maximize players (even 3rd options) and some aren't, but if you're winning who cares

On the other hand, there's also no arguing that playing with Lebron specifically caused a change in how Love/Bosh get their shots. Love isn't exactly a spot-up shooter, but he feasted on putting in work in the paint in Minny and while he could shoot from outside it was not the featured part of his offense. That's been pretty much flipped around, with his outside shooting becoming the featured part of his offense and getting inside hardly occurring. This is not just a function of being a 3rd option, but a result of the style of play

He's not maximizing his talent and is very clearly uncomfortable with his role, and has trouble finding a rhythm, but there's no coach that would rather limit Lebrons effectiveness to boost Love's, especially not when you're winning that way

[Bankaii]

The argument that as a 3rd option Love shouldn't be expected to put up 1st option numbers is valid. There's really no point arguing that, some systems are able to maximize players (even 3rd options) and some aren't, but if you're winning who cares

On the other hand, there's also no arguing that playing with Lebron specifically caused a change in how Love/Bosh get their shots. Love isn't exactly a spot-up shooter, but he feasted on putting in work in the paint in Minny and while he could shoot from outside it was not the featured part of his offense. That's been pretty much flipped around, with his outside shooting becoming the featured part of his offense and getting inside hardly occurring. This is not just a function of being a 3rd option, but a result of the style of play

He's not maximizing his talent and is very clearly uncomfortable with his role, and has trouble finding a rhythm, but there's no coach that would rather limit Lebrons effectiveness to boost Love's, especially not when you're winning that way
He took more 3s with Minny than he ever has with the Cavs.

[LostCause]

He took more 3s with Minny than he ever has with the Cavs.

I'm referring to his style of play. He took more 3's with Minnesota only by volume, because he was the 1st option. This much is understandable

However, looking at how much of his scoring is done where, you can see the trend

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#shooting::none

Over 40% of his FGA's comes from 3's now, and over 30% of those attempts come from the corner. Look at how those numbers compare to prior seasons

[tamaraw08]

Think about it, This argument is used against lebron the most, we know this because he never lost when his teammates performed at a high level While he was the first option. As the first option anytime lebron lost was due to inferior teamplay due to injuries/fatigue..

You just have to mention Lebron, right? Ok then let us examine the facts.
Miami Heat team 2010-11, Lebron was the FIRST OPTION, FACT, He lead his team in shots/game in the regular season at nearly 19 shots/game.
YOu want to blame his teammates why they lost?
Wade and Bosh combined for 45 pts/game and 14 rebs/game.
Did Lebron had a bad finals series? Heck yeah, same with Kobe vs Detroit!
I can't believe how no one would even give some credit to the team they that beat them. Some worshippers are just too biased, give full credit to their idol and blame his teammates for the lost. :rant
A few years ago, there was a huge Kobe fanatic who would give Kobe all the credit for the Lakers winning, but would put all the blame on his teammates whenever his team lose.:facepalm

[Bankaii]

I'm referring to his style of play. He took more 3's with Minnesota only by volume, because he was the 1st option. This much is understandable

However, looking at how much of his scoring is done where, you can see the trend

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#shooting::none

Over 40% of his FGA's comes from 3's now, and over 30% of those attempts come from the corner. Look at how those numbers compare to prior seasons
I see what you're saying now.

But when you're a 1st option you get the ball whenever and wherever you want it.
As a 3rd option sometimes you settle for the longer ranged shot because you're not going to get as many looks.

But even so, most of the time Love posted up on the low block he got the ball. It's also his fault for standing around the 3 point line instead of getting down low.

However, I do still agree Lebron/Kyire contribute to him standing around along with Blatt/Lue for all not forcing him down low and implementing him more effectively.