how good was Mike Tyson? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

FillJackson

08-10-2016, 12:42 PM

I missed much of his career since I was so young. Looking back at some clips the dude was an ANIMAL. I recall him talking about past fights and breaking his opponents spirit. Shit was powerful. I think he had one of if not the strongest prime of any boxer.

https://youtu.be/FWeD5KXx5WI

He was very good, explosively fast, but he dominated during a weak era.

He built his record facing a long line of stiffs without defensive skills.

If you were going to let Tyson hit you, you weren't going last long.

The era of Big Heavyweights that followed exposed a lot of weaknesses in his game. Buster Douglas was 6'4" and if you were tall with a good jab, you could do a good job of neutralizing him. You had to stop him from coming at you and a strong jab and a good reach was a big help.

The Buster Douglas upset was before he went to jail and when he should still have been in his prime. He was only 24 years old.

He was supposed to fight Holyfield before he went to jail, but the fight was cancelled. I think Holyfield would have beaten him in that fight.

Note how the uppercut that finished him was preceded by several jabs.

DonDadda59

08-10-2016, 12:50 PM

He was very good, but he dominated during a weak era.

He built his record facing a long line of stiffs without defensive skills.

If you were going to let Tyson hit you, you weren't going last long.

The era of Big Heavyweights that followed exposed a lot of weaknesses in his game. Buster Douglas was 6'4" and if you were tall with a good jab, you could do a good job of neutralizing him.

Precisely. Reason why he was dominated and KO'ed by Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis and avoided Bowe like he was patient zero.

iamgine

08-10-2016, 01:19 PM

There are two school of thoughts when it comes to Mike Tyson

One said he was the combination of speed, power, skill, defense and ferocity never seen before or after. The death of his mentor affected him greatly and he began to neglect his training and started doing a lot of drugs. He neglected the combinations which made him so dangerous and started headhunting more and more. He would still win because he was that good but it eventually caught up with him when Buster beat him.

The other said he lacked the ability to really fight against the best and only dominated relatively mediocre boxers. The proof is in his loss against Buster, Holyfield and Lewis. He was too hyped up too early and people only love him because he gave them exciting KOs. A lot of flash with little substance.

You Cant Ban Me

08-10-2016, 01:25 PM

good fighter with solid defense.One of the best heavyweights ever. top 15

Sarcastic

08-10-2016, 01:40 PM

GOAT knockout artist.

I think had Cus D'Amato not died when he did, and stayed in his life, his career would have ended very differently. Don King ruined him, as he ruins just about everything he touches.

MintBerryCrunch

08-10-2016, 01:48 PM

Very good.

Thorpesaurous

08-10-2016, 01:59 PM

I'm not sure how weak the era was, as opposed to it just ran small at the time. There really should be a weight class for Heavyweight that has a cap on it, then some kind of superheavyweight type of division, which I know they do in wrestling at the HS level now. Holyfield really fits in that category as well.

He had some benefits against the bigger guys too. He was one of the few guys who could get inside their arms, move his head enough to be a tough target to find, and was willing and able to do real damage to the body. But overall compared to the guys who started coming right after him, like Lewis, Bowe, and even the lesser guys, he's just not a comparably sized athlete. And then the Klitchko's come along not long after at 6-9 or so. It's just a different thing.

He's a hard guy to judge, because the general public overrated him for so long, that the insider crowd probably started to underrate him on balance. His style, and probably his legacy as well, is probably comparable to Joe Frazier, another smaller, hook throwing strong guy. Difference is one was considered an underdog while the other was always the favorite.

warriorfan

08-10-2016, 02:29 PM

Was one of the most raw talented boxers of all time

If D'Mato doesn't die and keeps Tyson on track the sky is the limit

If anyone is interested in Tyson they should check out the documentary that was produced by Carmelo Anthony, I believe it's called Tyson, not 100% though

DonDadda59

08-10-2016, 02:35 PM

GOAT knockout artist.

Julian Jackson>

I think had Cus D'Amato not died when he did, and stayed in his life, his career would have ended very differently. Don King ruined him, as he ruins just about everything he touches.

With or without Cus, Iron Mike still gets KTFO by Evander and Lennox. He still avoids Bowe using the best frans (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Oo1Pa72uM) excuse.

andgar923

08-10-2016, 02:54 PM

Im no boxing expert so I don't know if his career would be the same with or without Cus' death.

But I have yet to see so much hype for any athlete, and very few people are in the same league.

Whatever hype there is around Kim and Ye, Drake, Bron, etc.etc. It doesn't compare to prime Tyson's.

bdreason

08-10-2016, 02:56 PM

I was raised on Mike Tyson, but he probably has the weakest resume of any all-time great Boxer that I can think of.

Thorpesaurous

08-10-2016, 04:48 PM

Part of the problem with Tyson is that while a guy like Lennox Lewis, or George Foreman, were almost certainly better boxers, Tyson just put a much more appealing product out there.

Tony Kornheiser talks all the time about in his whole career covering sports, there was no event as captivating as a Mike Tyson fight. I just don't know how to measure something like that.

FillJackson

08-10-2016, 05:41 PM

FillJackson

08-10-2016, 06:11 PM

DonDadda59

08-10-2016, 06:28 PM

Watching the Buster Douglas fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8z0xoMze8U

Douglas better from the very first round. Beginning of the third round

Douglas landed 52 punchs to Tyson's 16. Announcers already talking about shocking the world.

Douglas is very sharp. Quick feet, good lateral movement. Quick and heavy jab giving Tyson trouble. Never intimidated

Plus Douglas had a great strategy to frustrate Tyson. Tyson never really gets to fight the fight he wants to fight. When Tyson charges, Buster either slips to the side or makes him pay with a jab.

Yeah it wasn't like Buster got some lucky fluke win or a flash KO. He broke down and dominated Tyson from pillar to post. Outboxed him, controlled the action, closed the show. It was a one-sided ass whooping and boxing lesson. If anyone almost got a lucky KO, it was Mike.

Exactly the type of fighter that is anathema to Mike's style- tall, rangy, with boxing skills and a crisp jab. Exactly why Tyson and his people wanted nothing to do with Bowe.

Also ducked a fat, old waaaaay past prime George Foreman. And Big George's 90s HW opponent resume was more impressive than Tyson's. :lol

Pointguard

08-10-2016, 06:44 PM

He was very good, explosively fast, but he dominated during a weak era.

He built his record facing a long line of stiffs without defensive skills.

If you were going to let Tyson hit you, you weren't going last long.

The era of Big Heavyweights that followed exposed a lot of weaknesses in his game. Buster Douglas was 6'4" and if you were tall with a good jab, you could do a good job of neutralizing him. You had to stop him from coming at you and a strong jab and a good reach was a big help.

The Buster Douglas upset was before he went to jail and when he should still have been in his prime. He was only 24 years old.

He was supposed to fight Holyfield before he went to jail, but the fight was cancelled. I think Holyfield would have beaten him in that fight.

Note how the uppercut that finished him was preceded by several jabs.
Robin Givens was his downfall. If you seriously think Buster Douglas was in the same class as pre-Givens Mike Tyson you need your head checked. You obviously forgot that Larry Holmes jab was the best jab artist in the heavy weight division since Ali's jab. And Holmes was a lot smarter than Buster Douglas.

Holyfield didn't have much of a defense at all and never did. Young Tyson might have been the best knockout artist ever. Tyson lost those fights mentioned above on being lost mentally about his wife. I lived up the block from them once they started dating and I recall her head games on him. Buster Douglas wasn't in a class below Mike Tyson, he was more like two.

As far as combinations, speed, power, defense and finishing, young Tyson was top five in all those categories in the all time heavy weight categories. That's insane. Cus D' Mato kept him focused. Here is a clip showing his defense to offense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZzMPsm6c4

DonDadda59

08-10-2016, 06:59 PM

Robin Givens was his downfall. If you seriously think Buster Douglas was in the same class as pre-Givens Mike Tyson you need your head checked.

I've never seen an athlete have so many different excuses for not living up to the hype. Now it was because of his wife? Thought it was Cus not being around. :lol

Tyson was 23 years old and in his prime when Buster clowned him.

FillJackson

08-10-2016, 07:09 PM

Robin Givens was his downfall. If you seriously think Buster Douglas was in the same class as pre-Givens Mike Tyson you need your head checked. You obviously forgot that Larry Holmes jab was the best jab artist in the heavy weight division since Ali's jab. And Holmes was a lot smarter than Buster Douglas.

Holyfield didn't have much of a defense at all and never did. Young Tyson might have been the best knockout artist ever. Tyson lost those fights mentioned above on being lost mentally about his wife. I lived up the block from them once they started dating and I recall her head games on him. Buster Douglas wasn't in a class below Mike Tyson, he was more like two.

As far as combinations, speed, power, defense and finishing, young Tyson was top five in all those categories in the all time heavy weight categories. That's insane. Cus D' Mato kept him focused. Here is a clip showing his defense to offense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZzMPsm6c4

Holmes lost to Spinks and then retired for two years and came back to fight tyson at age 38. And he went 4 rounds with Tyson. So what does that tell us.

Also I think Mike Tyson would have wound up being Mike Tyson if he never met Robin Givens and if Cus and Kevin Rooney lived. I think he kept that side of himself in check for a while and then once he achieved what he achieved he was going to indulge himself and slip.

The Douglas Tyson fight was a case of an underachiever getting in his best shape and finally fighting up to his potential and a knockout artist didn't work as hard as he used to and met a guy who could expose his weaknesses.

Tyson stopped improving and fell back. He stopped moving defensively and didn't throw body shots and he paid for it.

sd3035

08-10-2016, 07:09 PM

Tyson was out all night partying before the Buster Douglas fight, he was hungover as hell and tired af

DonDadda59

08-10-2016, 07:21 PM

Tyson was out all night partying before the Buster Douglas fight, he was hungover as hell and tired af

The JR Smith of Boxing.

Mental midgets tend to not to give 100% when they should. Then the excuses flow afterwards.

People may remember Tyson ducking Riddick Bowe due to their 'friendship', but they probably forgot him shamelessly ducking the corpse of George Foreman.

Big George on the situation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA)

Mike 'Cus died. My wife. Out partying. etc etc' Tyson:

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, "Georgie, You'll never believe this but, ****in' Tyson is scared shit less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fight in' that ****in' animal, if you love the mother****er so much, you fight him!'"

Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!

Shameful (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/foreman_tyson_fl.html)

:facepalm

warriorfan

08-10-2016, 08:51 PM

The JR Smith of Boxing.

Mental midgets tend to not to give 100% when they should. Then the excuses flow afterwards.

People may remember Tyson ducking Riddick Bowe due to their 'friendship', but they probably forgot him shamelessly ducking the corpse of George Foreman.

Big George on the situation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA)

Mike 'Cus died. My wife. Out partying. etc etc' Tyson:

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, "Georgie, You'll never believe this but, ****in' Tyson is scared shit less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fight in' that ****in' animal, if you love the mother****er so much, you fight him!'"

Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!

Shameful (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/foreman_tyson_fl.html)

:facepalm

He said, she said, he said, that whole set of supposed encounters sounds like some made up nonsense

As for Tyson being a mental midget, he was, he was from the hood and had nothing positive going in his life before boxing and then Cus. After Cus died Tyson got surrounded by sharks, without his only positive influence there to guide him he was simply done

You guys can talk shit about Tyson being a knuckleheaded bum but there is no way you can say he wasn't an amazing boxing talent

RedBlackAttack

08-10-2016, 08:58 PM

Mike was a damn good boxer... he also happens to be one of the most overrated athletes in history. It's not his fault and he'd probably be the first one to correct the record.

But people talk about him in an all-time context, which is absolutely ridiculous. His highlight mix is one of the best ever, but he came up during an extremely weak era for the HW division. I give him credit for dominating the scene in the mid-80s, but it was nothing to speak of.

When he finally fought other great fighters of his generation starting with Holyfield in the early-90s, his flaws were glaring. Boxing can be as much mental as physical and Mike simply had no "Plan B" against a beast like Holyfield who wasn't afraid of Mike.

Being an all-time great means rising to those challenges.... it means sometimes having to adapt on the fly, in the ring against another great fighter.

Mike would shrink in those moments.

We had a really good thread on this topic years ago.

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 01:24 AM

Holmes lost to Spinks and then retired for two years and came back to fight tyson at age 38. And he went 4 rounds with Tyson. So what does that tell us.
Jab was still superior to Buster Doublass's.

Also I think Mike Tyson would have wound up being Mike Tyson if he never met Robin Givens and if Cus and Kevin Rooney lived. I think he kept that side of himself in check for a while and then once he achieved what he achieved he was going to indulge himself and slip.
Too hard to guess on. I will tell you life experiences tend to prove that most people who have someone to keep them focused are much more successful than those who don't. Tyson was wild when he wasn't focused and you can tell that in every stage in his life... even right now... on the positive side.

The Douglas Tyson fight was a case of an underachiever getting in his best shape and finally fighting up to his potential and a knockout artist didn't work as hard as he used to and met a guy who could expose his weaknesses.

Tyson stopped improving and fell back. He stopped moving defensively and didn't throw body shots and he paid for it.

I don't have a problem with this at all. Young Tyson absolutely destroys Buster Douglas. In what I read above it seemed like you were saying that Buster Douglas happened before jail and it was some indication that Tyson finally ran into a good heavyweight which Buster wasn't as good as a lot of Tyson's earlier victories. As the poster above says, Tyson looked hung over fighting Douglas.

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 01:40 AM

Mike was a damn good boxer... he also happens to be one of the most overrated athletes in history. It's not his fault and he'd probably be the first one to correct the record.

But people talk about him in an all-time context, which is absolutely ridiculous. His highlight mix is one of the best ever, but he came up during an extremely weak era for the HW division. I give him credit for dominating the scene in the mid-80s, but it was nothing to speak of.
Its funny because how many era's have you personally seen. The Kiltzcho era was the weakest era I ever saw. Before that Holyfield dominated and he was a light heavy weight that didn't have good defense. Lennox Lewis had real problems with Rahman and Bowe. So give me an idea of how you are ranking these eras.

In the modern Heavy Weight era, Tyson had the best killer instinct, the best punching power with either hand, the best defense, the best combo puncher and he's somehow overrated when compared to who???

iamgine

08-11-2016, 01:42 AM

I subscribe to both these schools.
It's contradictory schools.

One says in his 'prime' Tyson can beat anyone on any given night. Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, etc. He had reached that level or at least very close. Plus he had all the physical tools to go even higher.

The other says he's never been on their level. Not even close. Not in his prime, not ever. It's an insult to these guys that he's mentioned on the same pedestal as them. Massively overrated.

The similarity between these two schools are they both admit young Mike obviously had mental problems which was kept in check by Cus.

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 01:45 AM

I've never seen an athlete have so many different excuses for not living up to the hype. Now it was because of his wife? Thought it was Cus not being around. :lol

Tyson was 23 years old and in his prime when Buster clowned him.
But he looked hung over and you were acting like it was Tyson at his best. Tyson was one of the most skilled, power punchers ever without question. Buster was ok at best.

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 01:58 AM

Young Tyson absolutely destroys Buster Douglas.

Tyson was 23 years old when Douglas DOMINATED him from the opening bell until he put him out of his misery. Why do you people act like he was some has been, past his prime fighter in his early 20s?

He was just finally matched up with a style that wasn't conducive to victory for him, a pattern that played out numerous times later in his career- dominated and then KTFO by a superior fighter. Bowe = Buster on the super soldier serum, hence why Tyson and his handlers wanted absolutely nothing to do with that fight. Big Daddy would've taken Mike to the cleaners.

and he's somehow overrated when compared to who???

The crop of HWs in the late 80s when Tyson was knocking out tomato cans in the first 3 rounds was putrid. It improved vastly in the early 90s and Mike somehow managed to avoid that competition and focused on doing what he did before going to jail- knocking out tomato cans in the first 3 rounds. Then when he finally fought an elite fighter, he got slapped around like he was a hoe who owned her pimp money (I know, I know... Cus, Robin Givens, crack... even though he was coming off 4 straight fights that ended in early KOs, 2 being first rounders) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)

For comparison's sake, a fat old George Foreman in his 40s fought Cooney, Holyfield, Moore, Morrison, Briggs in the 90s.

Tyson fought Peter McNeeley :roll:

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 02:02 AM

But he looked hung over and you were acting like it was Tyson at his best. Tyson was one of the most skilled, power punchers ever without question. Buster was ok at best.

Have you ever actually watched the fight? Tyson was DOMINATED the entire fight and almost got a lucky KO in there. Buster gave him an old-fashioned boxing lesson. Tyson was too small to compete. Tall, rangy fighters who could stick and move were his kryptonite. Buster was just the first such fighter he faced.

And discipline is part of the game. You don't get a pass for getting high the night before a championship fight. What other athlete would get a pass for getting high before a championship? I swear this man could slaughter a whole litter of kittens and you'd still find some sort of excuse. :lol

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 02:07 AM

Tyson was 23 years old when Douglas DOMINATED him from the opening bell until he put him out of his misery. Why do you people act like he was some has been, past his prime fighter in his early 20s?

As said several times before, Tyson looked hung over. You are trying to act like this was regular young Tyson which is incorrect.

The crop of HWs in the late 80s when Tyson was knocking out tomato cans in the first 3 rounds was putrid. It improved vastly in the early 90s and Mike somehow managed to avoid that competition and focused on doing what he did before going to jail- knocking out tomato cans in the first 3 rounds. Then when he finally fought an elite fighter, he got slapped around like he was a hoe who owned her pimp money (I know, I know... Cus, Robin Givens, crack... even though he was coming off 4 straight fights that ended in early KOs, 2 being first rounders) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)

For comparison's sake, a fat old George Foreman in his 40s fought Cooney, Holyfield, Moore, Morrison, Briggs in the 90s.

Tyson fought Peter McNeeley :roll:
Foreman at ages 40-45 was the big man and Holyfield the light heavy weight was the man. You are making my point for me.

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 02:16 AM

As said several times before, Tyson looked hung over. You are trying to act like this was regular young Tyson which is incorrect.

Again... If he was hungover, that proves that he was an overrated mental midget. If Michael Phelps decided to smoke crack before an event and finished dead last, people wouldn't be like 'oh look at him, he's not the same. That's not the regular Phelps.' They'd say 'why the f*ck would he get high before an Olympic event? :biggums: '

Guess things work differently in Tyson apologist land. You get a pass for smoking crack before defending your championship.

Again, Tyson was 23 years old when he was DOMINATED and Knocked out by James Buster Douglas. If you're saying that a boxer is past his prime in his early 20s and didn't have the sense or discipline to not smoke crack before a championship fight... Then you're basically admitting we're talking about the most overrated boxer ever.

Foreman at ages 40-45 was the big man and Holyfield the light heavy weight was the man. You are making my point for me.

And Tyson avoided an old fat Foreman and got KTFO and frustrated to the point of ear-biting by the clearly superior fighter in Holyfield.

If they fought 10 times, Holyfield crushes Mike 10 times... At any point of their HW careers. I might give Mike one on a lucky flash KO, but he'd probably smoke crack before the fight. :oldlol:

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 02:20 AM

Have you ever actually watched the fight? Tyson was DOMINATED the entire fight and almost got a lucky KO in there. Buster gave him an old-fashioned boxing lesson. Tyson was too small to compete. Tall, rangy fighters who could stick and move were his kryptonite. Buster was just the first such fighter he faced.

And discipline is part of the game. You don't get a pass for getting high the night before a championship fight. What other athlete would get a pass for getting high before a championship? I swear this man could slaughter a whole litter of kittens and you'd still find some sort of excuse. :lol I admit his game fell off. But looking at it from a pure boxing point answer these questions:

Name me a heavy weight that you saw in your lifetime that had better upper body movement, better combo's, better power in either hand, better defense to offense and better killer instinct. He was quick, with great ability to cut off the ring. He had the best package in boxing ever.

When I was one years old I could tell that Buster won that night so it doesn't look good when you think you're making a good point with repeating that.

From the total skills point and advantages the Tyson story is one of the best out there.

iamgine

08-11-2016, 02:27 AM

If Michael Phelps decided to smoke crack before an event and finished dead last, people wouldn't be like 'oh look at him, he's not the same. That's not the regular Phelps.' They'd say 'why the f*ck would he get high before an Olympic event? :biggums: '

I think people would say both things.

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 02:28 AM

Again... If he was hungover, that proves that he was an overrated mental midget. If Michael Phelps decided to smoke crack before an event and finished dead last, people wouldn't be like 'oh look at him, he's not the same. That's not the regular Phelps.' They'd say 'why the f*ck would he get high before an Olympic event? :biggums: '

Guess things work differently in Tyson apologist land. You get a pass for smoking crack before defending your championship.

Again, Tyson was 23 years old when he was DOMINATED and Knocked out by James Buster Douglas. If you're saying that a boxer is past his prime in his early 20s and didn't have the sense or discipline to not smoke crack before a championship fight... Then you're basically admitting we're talking about the most overrated boxer ever.

And Tyson avoided an old fat Foreman and got KTFO and frustrated to the point of ear-biting by the clearly superior fighter in Holyfield.

If they fought 10 times, Holyfield crushes Mike 10 times... At any point of their HW careers. I might give Mike one on a lucky flash KO, but he'd probably smoke crack before the fight. :oldlol:

He never smoked crack before a fight. You're getting silly now.

Great fighters do great things and it never last forever. Talk about skills/ fundamentals/ advantages/ Power/defense/ movement/combinations who are we comparing him to? Simple question?

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 02:31 AM

I admit his game fell off. But looking at it from a pure boxing point answer these questions:

Name me a heavy weight that you saw in your lifetime that had better upper body movement, better combo's, better power in either hand, better defense to offense and better killer instinct. He was quick, with great ability to cut off the ring. He had the best package in boxing ever.

Tyson was about even with Tua. As far as physical specimens at HW go, Ike Ibeabuchi takes the cake. Too bad he was even crazier than Tyson. Bowe was also something- 6'5" 250-270 but quick, agile.

Bold = :lol

When I was one years old I could tell that Buster won that night so it doesn't look good when you think you're making a good point with repeating that.

From the total skills point and advantages the Tyson story is one of the best out there.

*Until he started facing elite competition, which was rarely.

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 02:37 AM

He never smoked crack before a fight.

My bad, just cocaine technically before championship fights.

[INDENT]Mike Tyson admits to being high on drugs during major fights, and using a fake ***** to avoid detection

The former world heavyweight boxing champion disclosed in a new tell-all memoir that he spent a significant stretch of his turbulent career addicted to cocaine and marijuana.

Rooster

08-11-2016, 02:53 AM

Tyson was about even with Tua. As far as physical specimens at HW go, Ike Ibeabuchi takes the cake. Too bad he was even crazier than Tyson. Bowe was also something- 6'5" 250-270 but quick, agile.

Bold = :lol

*Until he started facing elite competition, which was rarely.

There would be no Klitschko era if Ike was not derangedly insane. I like the fact that you bring him up with this Tyson talk.

Rooster

08-11-2016, 02:58 AM

Its funny because how many era's have you personally seen. The Kiltzcho era was the weakest era I ever saw. Before that Holyfield dominated and he was a light heavy weight that didn't have good defense. Lennox Lewis had real problems with Rahman and Bowe. So give me an idea of how you are ranking these eras.

When did Lewis had problems with Bowe:rolleyes:

Holyfield dominated?:rolleyes:

When did that happen:roll:

plowking

08-11-2016, 03:11 AM

I've never seen an athlete have so many different excuses for not living up to the hype. Now it was because of his wife? Thought it was Cus not being around. :lol

Tyson was 23 years old and in his prime when Buster clowned him.

You clearly understand all the hurdles people face and that they all handle them exactly the same. Clearly Tyson didn't go through any adversity in his life according to you. He had it really easy.

Funny for you to talk about excuses when you were harping on about a sore shoulder for god knows how long after two fighters fought recently. You're probably still going on about it. :oldlol:

plowking

08-11-2016, 03:21 AM

But people talk about him in an all-time context, which is absolutely ridiculous. His highlight mix is one of the best ever, but he came up during an extremely weak era for the HW division. I give him credit for dominating the scene in the mid-80s, but it was nothing to speak of.

When he finally fought other great fighters of his generation starting with Holyfield in the early-90s, his flaws were glaring. Boxing can be as much mental as physical and Mike simply had no "Plan B" against a beast like Holyfield who wasn't afraid of Mike.

Mike clearly wasn't the same boxer when he fought Holyfield. Even 10 fights prior...

Which bit of that is arguable? Some of you are intent on reminding us that he lost these fights as if we don't know, but you don't do anything to address the point. The point is, he wasn't the same fighter. Acting as if it is ridiculous to claim that he peaked and faded as quickly as he did is stupid. It happens all the time in sports.
He was the youngest heavyweight champion of all time... Let that sink in. Is it not completely possible he peaked and faded quickly due to outside circumstances?

masonanddixon

08-11-2016, 03:33 AM

Good but overrated, lost to every elite boxer he fought.

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 03:40 AM

You clearly understand all the hurdles people face and that they all handle them exactly the same. Clearly Tyson didn't go through any adversity in his life according to you. He had it really easy.

Type that again as I play this tiny violin.

It's not like most fighters come from hard/troubled backgrounds. Only Mike Tyson is affected by the death of non family members and his spouse. That's why by 23, when he was bamboozled by a B class fighter, he was already past his prime and finished as a fighter.

Mike clearly wasn't the same boxer when he fought Holyfield. Even 10 fights prior...

Tyson's 4 fights before Holyfield:

McNeeley- DQ (1st round KO really)
Seldon- 1st Round Round KO
Buster Mathis- 3rd Round KO
Frank Bruno- 3rd Round KO

Dude was fighting a slightly higher caliber of fighters than he was before going to prison and he was getting the same results- early KOs vs overmatched opponents, 2 being 1st rounders.

Holyfield was 4 years older than Mike, a career Cruiserweight, and opened as the 25-1 underdog.

Still beat his ass twice, just to let you know him Knocking Tyson out was no fluke. Like I said before, they fight 10 times at any point of their respective careers, Evander wins 10 times because he was clearly... Clearly the superior fighter.

Clearly.

iamgine

08-11-2016, 03:46 AM

ITT we can see the same arguments that has been re-hashed millions of times between the two school of thoughts. :lol

warriorfan

08-11-2016, 04:24 AM

Good Tyson Documentary Produced by Carmelo Anthony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXU1eIwK4Zk)

Rooster

08-11-2016, 10:12 AM

Nastradamus

08-11-2016, 12:09 PM

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 12:19 PM

If he hadn't been over drinking, slacking on training and doing a ton of coke, he would have murdered Douglas.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

Dude got his ass kicked by a B fighter. Not just beaten, but DOMINATED. Whatever excuse you can come up with, and there's been like 5 different ones, is irrelevant.

warriorfan

08-11-2016, 12:48 PM

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

Dude got his ass kicked by a B fighter. Not just beaten, but DOMINATED. Whatever excuse you can come up with, and there's been like 5 different ones, is irrelevant.
There are excuses, and then there is the truth to what actually happened

Both one in the same, the difference depending on your viewpoint

Tyson was either a ghetto tomato can, or a great talent that got turned down the wrong path

I believe the latter

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 12:56 PM

There are excuses, and then there is the truth to what actually happened

Both one in the same, the difference depending on your viewpoint

Tyson was either a ghetto tomato can, or a great talent that got turned down the wrong path

I believe the latter

Virtually every fighter has a sob story to tell. Think about what kind of person decides to get punched in the face for a living. It's not kids who grow up in gated communities or the suburbs.

But for some reason, only Tyson gets a pass for a few tragedies in his life. Many, like getting drunk and snorting coke before championship fights, are of his own doing.

Cus or no Cus, sober or not sober, Lennox and Evander take his lunch money everyday. At any point of their respective HW careers.

FillJackson

08-11-2016, 03:05 PM

There are excuses, and then there is the truth to what actually happened

Both one in the same, the difference depending on your viewpoint

Tyson was either a ghetto tomato can, or a great talent that got turned down the wrong path

I believe the latter
Why couldn't he have been a great talent from the ghetto? Who then went down the wrong path. Because that is pretty much what happened.

I do think the guy had the tools to be one of the very best every, but he had 9 title defenses and a three year reign before he lost his belt.

By comparison, Larry Holmes who no one talks about the best every had 20 title defenses and a 7 year reign as champion.

I'm not a giant boxing fan, but I just doing a google search and from the top results of "best heavyweights ever" folks have him as

11
10
outside of their top 10
17*
10*
10

from the guy who had him at 17
[QUOTE]Why is he so low on the list? He had fast combinations, pulverizing power and was the great intimidator. He netted over 300 million dollars in purses (that he spent) because this anti-hero had record-breaking drawing power. So why isn

FillJackson

08-11-2016, 03:21 PM

An illustrative fight from early Mike Tyson. 1986 his 20th fight. You seem his strengths and his weaknesses: The Tillis fight mentioned above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xLXHbyoQF8

First fight that Tyson went the distance. James "Quick" Tillis was indeed quick and experienced and Tyson wasn't able to just impose his will on the guy.

Tyson's punches are just explosive. Tillis was fast enough to make him miss on some haymakers. Tyson could take a punch too.

Couple of amazing things about Tyson. He hit the top at very young age, youngest hw chamption ever and he's 5'11. How many other heavyweight champions were under 6 feet tall?

This fight was very close to a draw except for one big round by Tyson where Tillis missed wildly with a big punch and was completely off balance. Tyson countered and put him down, but didn't hurt him. Tillis bounced back up, the round ended and he looked fine the next round.

ArbitraryWater

08-11-2016, 04:05 PM

Just talked to a guy at my TT club who used to box for real (pretty damn successful too)... got all Ali/Tyson matches at his place, said Tyson would murder Ali in the first round if you put them together the way they were... just a different sport in Tyson's game.

Said the top 100 today would beat Ali :eek:

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 04:18 PM

Nick Young

08-11-2016, 04:28 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_05qJTeNNI

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 04:33 PM

That dude is an idiot. Tyson wanted no part of Ali's old, fat, 40-something year old leftovers. :lol

The Greatest's (Past prime) response to the Big George (prime/undefeated) challenge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3fAYpSVfk)

The most overrated's response to the Fat, 40-something year old George challenge:

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, "Georgie, You'll never believe this but, ****in' Tyson is scared shit less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fight in' that ****in' animal, if you love the mother****er so much, you fight him!'"

Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!

F*ck outta here with that mental midget bullshit. :yaohappy:

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 05:04 PM

42-Year Old Foreman (post a decade long retirement) vs 29 Year old Holyfield (Following his 3rd round KO of the great James 'Buster' Douglas) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7LOZ6EqEOg)

30-Year Old Tyson vs 34-Year Old Holyfield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)

But Ali, who beat a prime, undefeated Foreman couldn't compete in Mike's day (Foreman would go on to KO the then undefeated HW champion Michael Moorer, another fighter Tyson never faced, to become the oldest HW champion ever).

:yaohappy:

bdreason

08-11-2016, 05:50 PM

Ali and Foreman would crush Tyson. Ali would have Mike beat before they even stepped in the ring.

ArbitraryWater

08-11-2016, 06:29 PM

Weird, was confused myself... next time I will ask him why Tyson wanted no part of senior Foreman then.

So you think, sport evolved and all, you could put that Ali and Tyson version into a ring with each other and Ali would win convincingly, right?

BTW: About the Douglas fight, he said it was because Tyson was fcking around so much and doing drugs

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 07:02 PM

Weird, was confused myself... next time I will ask him why Tyson wanted no part of senior Foreman then.

Big George was ready (https://youtu.be/JmG_gR576EA?t=50s)

Don King was trying to make it happen.

You put it together.

So you think, sport evolved and all, you could put that Ali and Tyson version into a ring with each other and Ali would win convincingly, right?

Ali fought in the 60s-70s, Tyson the 80s-00s, they weren't separated by much and there was overlap between their eras. The fact that George Foreman, fat and in his 40s had a more impressive resume in the 90s than Mike did should tell you all you need to know. :lol

And the sad thing is, the early 90s had a nice crop of HWs. Better than the 80s when Mike was the tomato can assassin. And infinitely better than the post 2000s era.

BTW: About the Douglas fight, he said it was because Tyson was fcking around so much and doing drugs

And Buster was f*cking around knocking Mike the f*ck out. :lol

RedBlackAttack

08-11-2016, 08:59 PM

Mike clearly wasn't the same boxer when he fought Holyfield. Even 10 fights prior...

Which bit of that is arguable? Some of you are intent on reminding us that he lost these fights as if we don't know, but you don't do anything to address the point. The point is, he wasn't the same fighter. Acting as if it is ridiculous to claim that he peaked and faded as quickly as he did is stupid. It happens all the time in sports.
He was the youngest heavyweight champion of all time... Let that sink in. Is it not completely possible he peaked and faded quickly due to outside circumstances?
1. I was growing up right in the sweet spot of Tyson mania, and I was/am all-in. I loved the guy and still do. He was a warrior, a conqueror, etc. as he so eloquently put it. But, I'm also able to see beyond the bias that people have for the heavy-handed guys (and that goes waaay back).

2. If he peaked as a fighter at 19-20, that's even more of a reason not to talk about him in an all-time context. The reason I called him "overrated" isn't because I think he was a poor fighter. I think exactly the opposite... it's just that there's a difference between good, great, and all-time great and he just did not beat the kind of competition for that to be an argument ... and he showed no longevity or mental fortitude when chips were down against other elite guys.

3. I would assert that he was the same fighter or at least close enough that getting beaten up the way he did still counts for a lot. Like I said, I lived through the Tyson era and when he came out of prison, the sports world exploded. His first fight of real consequence was Frank Bruno and he absolutely destroyed Frank and did so in emphatic fashion, just as he had done to the multitudes of good, not great, fighters he faced in the 80s.

Then, he followed that up by annhialating Bruce Seldon who, again, was a good fighter. Seldon was coming off a win over Tony Tucker, who hung in there with Lennox Lewis (lost by relatively close UD). Hell, Tyson fought Tucker and that was the first time Tyson was pushed in a fight (Tyson won by UD).

At that point, the Tyson hype was jacked up to 100%, the same as it was in 1987. No one was talking about how he looked different ... they were reveling in the same kind of highlight knockouts and brutal beatings of good fighters just as they had done five years prior.

Then, he fought Evander Holyfield. That was really the first time that his aura of invincibility was slightly lifted, because people had pushed the Douglas loss off as a fluke by that point. That's when the excuses started coming when, in fact, Holyfield was the one who had been through the wars and who people thought was used up going into the bout.

"Tyson didn't take him seriously."
"His training wasn't adequate."
"His corner was a mess."
etc, etc.

So, he fought him again ... and, when he discovered that the same Holyfield showed up, he found a way out of the fight. And, somehow, the excuse-making continued and has never ended.

I like Tyson, but the guy's diehard fans -- otherwise rational people -- make the kind of justifications and excuses for him that they'd never let any other athlete get away with.

Pointguard

08-11-2016, 10:02 PM

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]My bad, just cocaine technically before championship fights.

[INDENT]Mike Tyson admits to being high on drugs during major fights, and using a fake ***** to avoid detection

The former world heavyweight boxing champion disclosed in a new tell-all memoir that he spent a significant stretch of his turbulent career addicted to cocaine and marijuana.

DonDadda59

08-11-2016, 11:04 PM

Do you go to boxers for enlightenment? Poor choices often happen when people lose someone who kept them focused. Why do I have to break that down for you? This inability to see that he wasn't on his game by the time he fought Douglas is astonishing.

Buster Douglas' mom died of a stroke 3 weeks before he schooled Tyson, bruh. Nobody's got time for your excuses.

You can't see that his speed is slower, defense a step slower, defense to offense totally off, his combinations off flow? I can understand you missing somethings but not all.

He was 23. If he was done as a boxer by then... How great was he really? What noteworthy HWs did he beat during his brief 'prime' (it gets smaller and smaller each time he's discussed. Next week his 'prime' will be a glorious 2 week span during the Summer when he was 16 years old).

Show me another post Ali heavy weight that had the power in both hands, his upper body defense, his combos, his speed, his killer instinct. Show me :confusedshrug:

No Problem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)

Pointguard

08-12-2016, 12:19 AM

Buster Douglas' mom died of a stroke 3 weeks before he schooled Tyson, bruh. Nobody's got time for your excuses.
It might have been motivation. He might not have been close to her. But that doesn't matter. Tyson was walking a tight rope his whole life. He fell off the balance beam. Not to be able to notice that is a bit bizarre.

No Problem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)
That's more impressive to you than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHvMqAgcmc

Skill wise, power wise, defense wise, instinct wise its a joke to show Holyfield.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 12:31 AM

It might have been motivation.

Of course. :lol

Cus dies in 1985... It caused Tyson to get his ass kicked by Buster in 1990.

Buster's mom dies 3 weeks before the fight... it's motivation.

That's more impressive to you than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHvMqAgcmc

Skill wise, power wise, defense wise, instinct wise its a joke to show Holyfield.

Holyfield whooped his ass twice. :biggums:

plowking

08-12-2016, 01:01 AM

Ali and Foreman would crush Tyson. Ali would have Mike beat before they even stepped in the ring.

This is as bad as the Wilt and Jordan stans in basketball.

plowking

08-12-2016, 01:09 AM

2. If he peaked as a fighter at 19-20, that's even more of a reason not to talk about him in an all-time context. The reason I called him "overrated" isn't because I think he was a poor fighter. I think exactly the opposite... it's just that there's a difference between good, great, and all-time great and he just did not beat the kind of competition for that to be an argument ... and he showed no longevity or mental fortitude when chips were down against other elite guys.

The questions is, "how good was Mike Tyson".

He was at his best when he was 20-21. That is the truth of it. Say what you want, but he wasn't the same fighter when he fought Holyfield. I'm not saying he is one of the greatest ever, because he isn't based on his career. But at his best, he was right up there with anyone.
Tyson was a head-hunter who threw no combinations by the time he was fighting Holyfield. Is that seriously the same fighter you saw when he was demolishing guys prior to going to prison? I'm honestly wondering...

Once again, the question is, how good was he. Much like the question gets asked about Len Bias, or may get asked about Derrick Rose. Clearly they aren't worth considering in the greatest discussion, but they were something special during their time.
I'm not sure if it was you who also mentioned him, but for me, there is very few fighters in a one off fight I'd take over someone like Ike Ibeabuchi, and he didn't achieve shit. Still, how good was he? He had all the tools to be one of the greatest.

A lot of Tyson's career is what if. Who cares? There is a lot in sport like that. My point is, he was great at 21. Very few fighters I'd take over him at that point.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 01:19 AM

This is as bad as the Wilt and Jordan stans in basketball.

Why didn't Iron Mike fight an old, fat, 40-something Foreman bruh? Who did better against Evander- 42 year old Foreman vs 29 year old Holyfield, or 30 year old Tyson vs 34 year old Holyfield?

Who fought the better HW competition in the 90s, fat old George or Iron Mike?

:confusedshrug:

plowking

08-12-2016, 01:28 AM

Why didn't Iron Mike fight an old, fat, 40-something Foreman bruh? Who did better against Evander- 42 year old Foreman vs 29 year old Holyfield, or 30 year old Tyson vs 34 year old Holyfield?

Who fought the better HW competition in the 90s, fat old George or Iron Mike?

:confusedshrug:

How's Pac's shoulder? Will he get Mayweather in the rematch? :confusedshrug:

eliteballer

08-12-2016, 01:59 AM

No one can sit in Jail for what, 3 years and still be the same physically when it comes to competing that level.

I don't know if we've ever seen the combination of speed and power Tyson possessed in his prime, the only thing that really gave him trouble was size.

There are fighters who rivaled his power, foreman and shavers for example but the speed with which he could deliver that power is unrivaled.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 02:08 AM

How's Pac's shoulder? Will he get Mayweather in the rematch? :confusedshrug:

Sodium :lol

Stay on topic. Answer the questions.

No one can sit in Jail for what, 3 years and still be the same physically when it comes to competing that level.

Tyson after prison, before Holyfield- 2 first round KOs, 2 3rd round KOs. Same as before he went to jail.

Evander and Lennox were just superior fighters who would've beaten Mike at any point of his career.

eliteballer

08-12-2016, 02:14 AM

Sodium :lol

Stay on topic. Answer the questions.

Tyson after prison, before Holyfield- 2 first round KOs, 2 3rd round KOs. Same as before he went to jail.

Evander and Lennox were just superior fighters who would've beaten Mike at any point of his career.

I repeat, NO ONE can sit in jail for 3 years and the same physically, especially from a speed/timing etc athletic standpoint, at the professional level.

It's just disingenuous or ignorant for you to suggest otherwise.

Tyson also didn't have D'Amato in his corner.

I'd put easy money on Prime Tyson beating Holyfield.

Lewis probably too, but Lewis had the size that bothered Tyson.

TommyGriffin

08-12-2016, 02:14 AM

Don, you can stop trolling now.

plowking

08-12-2016, 02:16 AM

Sodium :lol

Stay on topic. Answer the questions.

This is about the topic.

How is his shoulder?

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 02:19 AM

I repeat, NO ONE can sit in jail for 3 years and the same physically, especially from a speed/timing etc athletic standpoint, at the professional level.

It's just disingenuous or ignorant for you to suggest otherwise.

Tyson also didn't have D'Amato in his corner.

I'd put easy money on Prime Tyson beating Holyfield.

Lewis probably too, but Lewis had the size that bothered Tyson.

So 'Prime Tyson' = D'Amato in his corner?

Cus died in November of 1985. Are you telling me that Tyson's 'prime' was the 9 months between his turning pro and Cus dying? :biggums:

Mike was KO'ing tomato cans LONG after Cus died. The Buster fight happened in 1990, 5 years after the death of Mr. D'Amato.

Buster's mother died 3 weeks before that fight.

This is about the topic.

How is his shoulder?

You don't want to touch the topic because you know the answers.

An old, fat, 40-something year old George Foreman (after a full decade away from the ring) had a more distinguished career in the 90s than Mike Tyson, 17 years his junior, did.

Fat 42 year old George performed far better against a guy that dominated Tyson twice, and he fought better competition.

Why didn't Mike fight Bowe or Moorer? But Peter McNeeley got a shot?

plowking

08-12-2016, 03:01 AM

You don't want to touch the topic because you know the answers.

An old, fat, 40-something year old George Foreman (after a full decade away from the ring) had a more distinguished career in the 90s than Mike Tyson, 17 years his junior, did.

Fat 42 year old George performed far better against a guy that dominated Tyson twice, and he fought better competition.

Why didn't Mike fight Bowe or Moorer? But Peter McNeeley got a shot?

Is that a "it was fine" or "severely injured"?

I'm really just taking a note out of your book here.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 03:12 AM

Is that a "it was fine" or "severely injured"?

I'm really just taking a note out of your book here.

42 year old Foreman vs 29 year old Holyfield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7LOZ6EqEOg)

30 year old Tyson (coming off 4 straight 3rd round or sooner KOs) vs 34 year old Holyfield (opened as a 25-1 underdog) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_fM3OIbua4)

Iron Mike on Why He Avoided Bowe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Oo1Pa72uM) (Notice that of the 4 HWs named, Tyson was KTFO by 2, avoided the other 2).

Tyson was probably the 5th best HW of his era (1. Lewis 2. Bowe 3. Holyfield 4. Fat, old George). He avoided or was dominated by the non tomato can heavies of the early to mid 90s.

George Foreman in his mid-late 40s, after a full 10 years away from the ring had a better resume and higher quality of opponents than Mike Tyson in the 90s. Just when you thought the overrated couldn't get any more overrated. :yaohappy:

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 03:23 AM

If you want to stan for an undersized HW with KO power but don't like having to constantly make excuses for f*ckery, David Tua (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7t4xeD9N2E) is your man. :applause:

plowking

08-12-2016, 03:42 AM

lol.

gotcha.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 03:44 AM

lol.

gotcha.

http://i.imgur.com/jvsIqgz.gif

plowking

08-12-2016, 06:35 AM

A whole reply about something I didn't even mention in my post. :oldlol:

Not even that, you use a "he said, she said" story as evidence.

Then you went full hyperbole with your ranking to try and spark some more discussion. :oldlol:

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 11:19 AM

sd3035

08-12-2016, 12:12 PM

It takes a special kind of retard to attempt to post imgur images after all this time :lol

Lebron23

08-12-2016, 12:24 PM

By the way I wish Lennox gave Vitali a rematch before the eye injury Vitali was out boxing him. It sucks that Lennox robbed him of a 2nd chance.

The Klitchscko brothers are getting underrated in the boxing forums I have them over Marcio and Holmes the four of them also dominated a weak era. But in a head to head matchup the K brothers beat them.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 12:29 PM

It takes a special kind of retard to attempt to post imgur images after all this time :lol

http://i.imgur.com/jvsIqgz.gif

What's your top 5 HW boxers of the 80s-90s list look like? :confusedshrug:

sd3035

08-12-2016, 01:27 PM

Vitali is the greatest modern heavyweight

For all intents and purposes, he retired undefeated. During his only two losses, he was kicking the shit out of his opponent until a shoulder injury, and a questionable cut stoppage

Lewis ran scared and retired rather than facing Vitali again

Pointguard

08-12-2016, 01:28 PM

Of course. :lol
:lol its one thing to not be able to tell a fighter reduced by 30 to 40% but to not be able to tell when a fighter is the most motivated in his career is hilarious. Buster was flat and sloppy in every other televised fight. Especially his next fight with Rahman???

Cus dies in 1985... It caused Tyson to get his ass kicked by Buster in 1990.

Buster's mom dies 3 weeks before the fight... it's motivation.
Buster was up for that fight and showed more resiliency than he would the rest of his career. Somethings are obvious as hell. I get it that some people can't distinguish emotions and qualitative outputs in competitors but they usually outright admit it.

Most fans will catch it.

You claiming that you know what motivates one person and what gets destroyed in another person when his disciplinarian leaves is a bit pressumptious.

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 01:47 PM

:lol its one thing to not be able to tell a fighter reduced by 30 to 40% but to not be able to tell when a fighter is the most motivated in his career is hilarious. Buster was flat and sloppy in every other televised fight. Especially his next fight with Rahman???

Buster was up for that fight and showed more resiliency than he would the rest of his career. Somethings are obvious as hell. I get it that some people can't distinguish emotions and qualitative outputs in competitors but they usually outright admit it.

Most fans will catch it.

You claiming that you know what motivates one person and what gets destroyed in another person when his disciplinarian leaves is a bit pressumptious.

So boiled down- Cus dies in 1985, Tyson proceeds to go 24-0 (20 KOs) and wins the HW title after that, before getting dominated and KO'ed by Buster Douglas 5 years later when Tyson was 23 years old.

Buster's mother dies of a stroke 3 weeks before he dominates and KOs Tyson.

But Tyson suffered the defeat because of Cus' death. Got ya.

What does your top 5 HWs from the 80s and 90s list look like? :confusedshrug:

Lebron23

08-12-2016, 01:52 PM

ArbitraryWater

08-12-2016, 02:24 PM

Vitali is the GOAT no doubt

So many excuses for Tyson btw

warriorfan

08-12-2016, 02:45 PM

No one is giving any excuses...such a juvenile way to look at it

It's just the facts

Mike Tyson was an immensly talented young boxer

Mike Tyson had a traumatic childhood and had no role models in his life before Cus D'Amato

When Cus D'Amato died, Mike Tyson's only positive influence and the foundation of his life dissapeared

In result he declined, ended up in trouble and had to do time in prison, he obviously never was the same

These are the facts here, you can plug your ears and go "Tyson was an overrated Tomato can! na na na na na, I can't hear you!" if you want

It's not a very good look though

DonDadda59

08-12-2016, 03:02 PM

When Cus D'Amato died, Mike Tyson's only positive influence and the foundation of his life dissapeared

In result he declined, ended up in trouble and had to do time in prison, he obviously never was the same

Tyson as a pro while Cus was alive- 11-0 (11 KOs), opponents' combined record of 57-61-5

Tyson after Cus died (before being bamboozled by B fighter Buster Douglas)- 26-0 (22 KOs), became the youngest ever HW champion.

Declined doe. :rolleyes:

I'll ask you the same question I keep asking that all the apologists keep avoiding- what does your top 5 HW from the 80s and 90s list look like?

Pointguard

08-12-2016, 03:42 PM

So boiled down- Cus dies in 1985, Tyson proceeds to go 24-0 (20 KOs) and wins the HW title after that, before getting dominated and KO'ed by Buster Douglas 5 years later when Tyson was 23 years old.

Buster's mother dies of a stroke 3 weeks before he dominates and KOs Tyson.

But Tyson suffered the defeat because of Cus' death. Got ya.

What does your top 5 HWs from the 80s and 90s list look like? :confusedshrug:
I'm the one who said it was Robin Given or love gone wrong as the primary reason. Cus being replaced by greedy sharks who only had money on their minds hurt him too.

sd3035

08-12-2016, 03:42 PM

I'm starting to think maybe Donald D was right, Mikey T was probably overrated

I still believe he would have smoked Jimmy Douglas had he not partied all night

Pointguard

08-12-2016, 03:49 PM

sd3035

08-12-2016, 03:51 PM

One thing's not really debatable, Tyson's physical talents were far better than his mental game

RedBlackAttack

08-15-2016, 08:47 PM

The questions is, "how good was Mike Tyson".

He was at his best when he was 20-21. That is the truth of it. Say what you want, but he wasn't the same fighter when he fought Holyfield. I'm not saying he is one of the greatest ever, because he isn't based on his career. But at his best, he was right up there with anyone.
Tyson was a head-hunter who threw no combinations by the time he was fighting Holyfield. Is that seriously the same fighter you saw when he was demolishing guys prior to going to prison? I'm honestly wondering...

Once again, the question is, how good was he. Much like the question gets asked about Len Bias, or may get asked about Derrick Rose. Clearly they aren't worth considering in the greatest discussion, but they were something special during their time.
I'm not sure if it was you who also mentioned him, but for me, there is very few fighters in a one off fight I'd take over someone like Ike Ibeabuchi, and he didn't achieve shit. Still, how good was he? He had all the tools to be one of the greatest.

A lot of Tyson's career is what if. Who cares? There is a lot in sport like that. My point is, he was great at 21. Very few fighters I'd take over him at that point.

I would absolutely not take Tyson against anyone ever, not because he wasn't extremely talented when he was 20-years-old, but he just never showed any mental fortitude in a fight.

When you fight other great fighters, which unfortunately we never got to see happen when Mike was 20, there are going to be times where you have to work your way through it and adapt your gameplan.

I mean, if a guy like Francis Francois Botha or even Evander Holyfield can take you off your game, what would guys like Ali do?

But I don't think we necessarily disagree on much. Tyson was one of the funnest HW champs of all-time and he left behind awesome highlights, but never was able to live up to his own myth in terms of resume.

As for Ike Ibeabuchi, that is the way to my heart. He was my guy in that era of fighters. I thought he could have beaten Lennox Lewis if he wouldn't have been completely insane. He had all the tools and his win over David Tua (Tua's first professional loss) is one of the greatest HW fights of the modern era.

I will also forever have the lasting memory of him knocking Chris Byrd into another dimension far, far away with his patented "hooker-cut."

Unlike Tyson, Ibeabuchi's ceiling remains completely unknown. He burned bright for a moment and then he was gone.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/the507assassin/IkeIbeabuchivsChrisByrd1999-03-20-n.gif

plowking

08-15-2016, 09:10 PM

I would absolutely not take Tyson against anyone ever, not because he wasn't extremely talented when he was 20-years-old, but he just never showed any mental fortitude in a fight.

[/IMG]

I'm taking Tyson over Holyfield every time they fight if it was back before Mike became a head hunter. He isn't as good as Lennox, but I'm definitely favouring him over Holyfield.

He wasn't close to the fighter he was when he fought Holyfield.

~primetime~

08-15-2016, 10:40 PM

I'm taking Tyson over Holyfield every time they fight if it was back before Mike became a head hunter. He isn't as good as Lennox, but I'm definitely favouring him over Holyfield.

He wasn't close to the fighter he was when he fought Holyfield.
Naw, Evander beats Mike every time, at any age.

Prime Holyfield was amazing, underrated even.

iamgine

08-16-2016, 12:09 AM

I would absolutely not take Tyson against anyone ever, not because he wasn't extremely talented when he was 20-years-old, but he just never showed any mental fortitude in a fight.

This is one of the main point that both sides agree and disagree upon.

Everybody can agree that Tyson by himself was probably a mental midget. How can he not be, given how he grew up.

However, where both sides disagree is what the presence of Cus did for his mentality. Mike himself has testified the great effect Cus had on his discipline and confidence and it showed against lesser boxers. The extent to how much the presence of Cus would affect Mike in the ring against great boxers? That's where it gets muddied because Mike never fought the Alis when Cus was around.

masonanddixon

08-16-2016, 05:59 AM

I would absolutely not take Tyson against anyone ever, not because he wasn't extremely talented when he was 20-years-old, but he just never showed any mental fortitude in a fight.

When you fight other great fighters, which unfortunately we never got to see happen when Mike was 20, there are going to be times where you have to work your way through it and adapt your gameplan.

I mean, if a guy like Francis Francois Botha or even Evander Holyfield can take you off your game, what would guys like Ali do?

But I don't think we necessarily disagree on much. Tyson was one of the funnest HW champs of all-time and he left behind awesome highlights, but never was able to live up to his own myth in terms of resume.

As for Ike Ibeabuchi, that is the way to my heart. He was my guy in that era of fighters. I thought he could have beaten Lennox Lewis if he wouldn't have been completely insane. He had all the tools and his win over David Tua (Tua's first professional loss) is one of the greatest HW fights of the modern era.

I will also forever have the lasting memory of him knocking Chris Byrd into another dimension far, far away with his patented "hooker-cut."

Unlike Tyson, Ibeabuchi's ceiling remains completely unknown. He burned bright for a moment and then he was gone.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/the507assassin/IkeIbeabuchivsChrisByrd1999-03-20-n.gif

Like every other unstable and inconsistent athlete, Ibeabuchi has become massively overrated. Watch the Tua fight again, there's literally no defense at all whatsoever in the bout.

Not saying he sucked but he would've gotten clowned by a Klitchko or Lewis in their primes.

masonanddixon

08-16-2016, 06:00 AM

Riddick Bowe was trash, got his ass beat both times by Golota.

Rooster

08-16-2016, 01:36 PM

Like every other unstable and inconsistent athlete, Ibeabuchi has become massively overrated. Watch the Tua fight again, there's literally no defense at all whatsoever in the bout.

Not saying he sucked but he would've gotten clowned by a Klitchko or Lewis in their primes.

Which Klitchko are you referring to? Wladimir has a weak chin and can't fight backwards. What we see in Tua fight was Ike can take a punch from a heavy hitter. Vlad would be a different fight though and Lewis. Whoever backdown first on those fights will lose.

Nastradamus

08-16-2016, 02:08 PM

Tyson as a pro while Cus was alive- 11-0 (11 KOs), opponents' combined record of 57-61-5

Tyson after Cus died (before being bamboozled by B fighter Buster Douglas)- 26-0 (22 KOs), became the youngest ever HW champion.

Declined doe. :rolleyes:

I'll ask you the same question I keep asking that all the apologists keep avoiding- what does your top 5 HW from the 80s and 90s list look like?

It took him a couple years to start declining. He fought for Cus for a few years IMO, but between people taking advantage of him and not having anyone to look out for what was best for him(****in Robin Givens and her mom), he started to really go off the rails with the booze coke and women. His autobiography is great and really honest. He basically didn't train for Douglas, and this was a guy who trained harder than anyone until about 88 or so.

Its possible Holyfield or Lewis was simply too good for him, but Tyson hit harder than anyone and was harder to hit than people realize when he was on. Good chin too. He beat some good fighters early on. He's the only guy to ever finish Holmes, Berbick was a solid win, same for Frazier. Spinks was 31-0 etc.

Not saying those guys were all HOFers, but they were good boxers who he made look like they didn't belong in the ring. Even if guy like Holyfield out boxed prime Tyson, its doubtful they finish him, so you're counting on him taking 12 rounds of punishment and not going down.

Nastradamus

08-16-2016, 02:11 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu_hvAwzopI

Great watch on his style

Pointguard

08-16-2016, 03:24 PM

I would absolutely not take Tyson against anyone ever, not because he wasn't extremely talented when he was 20-years-old, but he just never showed any mental fortitude in a fight. against anyone ever??? 9 title defenses he was tested. I think two went the distance?

When you fight other great fighters, which unfortunately we never got to see happen when Mike was 20, there are going to be times where you have to work your way through it and adapt your gameplan.
There was this guy named Mayweather.. whom was rarely threatened by greats at all. They couldn't adapt to him despite him not being an offensive power house. Mike had the best defense in his weight division, and his weaker hand more knockout power than anybody's stronger hand in all of boxing.

I mean, if a guy like Francis Francois Botha or even Evander Holyfield can take you off your game, what would guys like Ali do?

At this point, the blurring of peak MT vs deteriorated MT can only be seen as intentional.

As for Ike Ibeabuchi, that is the way to my heart. He was my guy in that era of fighters. I thought he could have beaten Lennox Lewis if he wouldn't have been completely insane. He had all the tools and his win over David Tua (Tua's first professional loss) is one of the greatest HW fights of the modern era.

I will also forever have the lasting memory of him knocking Chris Byrd into another dimension far, far away with his patented "hooker-cut."

Unlike Tyson, Ibeabuchi's ceiling remains completely unknown. He burned bright for a moment and then he was gone.
Outside of odd angle punches Mike was better than him in nearly every skill and attribute. Was on a whole different planet as far as defense was concerned.

~primetime~

08-16-2016, 03:30 PM

Tyson was 29 when he fought Evander and was dominated.

But we are supposed to believe he was old and washed up.

Naw...he was still Mike

Evander was a better boxer...plain and simple

warriorfan

08-16-2016, 03:32 PM

Tyson was 29 when he fought Evander and was dominated.

But we are supposed to believe he was old and washed up.

Naw...he was still Mike

Evander was a better boxer...plain and simple

Extremely insightful. Thank you for this take.

L.Kizzle

08-16-2016, 03:35 PM

3rd tier heavyweight.

RedBlackAttack

08-16-2016, 07:50 PM

There was this guy named Mayweather.. whom was rarely threatened by greats at all. They couldn't adapt to him despite him not being an offensive power house. Mike had the best defense in his weight division, and his weaker hand more knockout power than anybody's stronger hand in all of boxing.
It's absurd to even compare Tyson and Mayweather, especially when talking about that specific quality in a fighter. Mayweather was actually the master at what I described in the post you quoted ... he would take the first few rounds to feel a guy out, get his rhythm, measure the distance, and just tactically take him apart.

Although many of his fights "looked" the same in that they turned into Mayweather pot-shotting the opponent while the other guy tried (and failed) to find a way to counter him, he would use different strategies depending upon the fighter and the style in front of him.

When I said Tyson was unable to adapt in the ring when things went sideways, Mayweather would be one of the guys I'd use as an example of great fighters who were constantly adapting and re-adapting in the ring, as the fight was happening. That was maybe his greatest trait.

If Tyson didn't hurt/intimidate a guy who was good enough to match his athletic talent, he had no idea how to respond. That isn't to say he'd give up (except the second time against Holyfield, where he did give up spectacularly). One of the most underrated things about Mike was his chin. It truly was Iron. Some of the shots Lennox Lewis and Holyfield and especially Douglas were hitting him with before he finally wilted would have shattered most guys' chins.

Tyson was a bulldog. He'd keep coming. The problem was, once he was figured out, he only had a puncher's chance.

masonanddixon

08-16-2016, 10:06 PM

It's absurd to even compare Tyson and Mayweather, especially when talking about that specific quality in a fighter. Mayweather was actually the master at what I described in the post you quoted ... he would take the first few rounds to feel a guy out, get his rhythm, measure the distance, and just tactically take him apart.

Although many of his fights "looked" the same in that they turned into Mayweather pot-shotting the opponent while the other guy tried (and failed) to find a way to counter him, he would use different strategies depending upon the fighter and the style in front of him.

When I said Tyson was unable to adapt in the ring when things went sideways, Mayweather would be one of the guys I'd use as an example of great fighters who were constantly adapting and re-adapting in the ring, as the fight was happening. That was maybe his greatest trait.

If Tyson didn't hurt/intimidate a guy who was good enough to match his athletic talent, he had no idea how to respond. That isn't to say he'd give up (except the second time against Holyfield, where he did give up spectacularly). One of the most underrated things about Mike was his chin. It truly was Iron. Some of the shots Lennox Lewis and Holyfield and especially Douglas were hitting him with before he finally wilted would have shattered most guys' chins.

Tyson was a bulldog. He'd keep coming. The problem was, once he was figured out, he only had a puncher's chance.

At least Tyson fought guys in their primes and not on catch weights or hand picked refs.

Mayweather has always struggled against pressure fighters, thats why he lost to Castillo and thats why many think he lost to Maidana the first time around, and thats why he avoided the Punisher and Margarito among others when they were in their prime.

RedBlackAttack

08-16-2016, 10:10 PM

At least Tyson fought guys in their primes and not on catch weights or hand picked refs.

Mayweather has always struggled against pressure fighters, thats why he lost to Castillo and thats why many think he lost to Maidana the first time around, and thats why he avoided the Punisher and Margarito among others when they were in their prime.
Hilarious.

No one on earth thinks he lost to Maidana, let alone "many." No one worth a damn, anyway. I mean, you can find people who think Barack Obama is secretly running ISIS and 9/11 was a controlled demolition.

I'd like to see one competent boxing insider/writer/etc who thought Mayweather lost to Maidana.

He also didn't lose to Castillo. When you win the first six rounds, it makes it kind of tough to mount a comeback. But, even though he did face adversity in that fight (the most in his career by far), he immediately signed up for a rematch and clearly won.

Margarito was putting cement in his gloves and "The Punisher" was exposed by lesser fighters than Floyd Mayweather.

His resume is oozing with "pressure fighters" and every one of them took a loss.

This just goes to show you, though... people love knockout artists. That's really what this is all about.

masonanddixon

08-16-2016, 10:22 PM

Hilarious.

No one on earth thinks he lost to Maidana, let alone "many." No one worth a damn, anyway. I mean, you can find people who think Barack Obama is secretly running ISIS and 9/11 was a controlled demolition.

I'd like to see one competent boxing insider/writer/etc who thought Mayweather lost to Maidana.

He also didn't lose to Castillo. When you win the first six rounds, it makes it kind of tough to mount a comeback. But, even though he did face adversity in that fight (the most in his career by far), he immediately signed up for a rematch and clearly won.

Margarito was putting cement in his gloves and "The Punisher" was exposed by lesser fighters than Floyd Mayweather.

His resume is oozing with "pressure fighters" and every one of them took a loss.

This just goes to show you, though... people love knockout artists. That's really what this is all about.

lmao you're a know-nothing boxing fan if there ever was on. Literally no one thinks he beat Castillo and the rematch was close as shit, I had 7 rounds to 5 for Floyd. The first meeting theres literally no way you can give Floyd more than 4 rounds unless you're racist/or black/a Mayweather lackey.

A shitload of people thought Maidana won, a lot of people had him up 4-2 or 5-1 after 6 rounds, I personally scored it 115-113 Floyd but you'd need to be an absolute sheep to think Mayweather won that fought clearly.

Who was the Punisher 'exposed' by? A freak loss to Quintana (who he then KO'd) or was it the incredibly mediocre prime Maravilla??? You tell me.

or was it Lara when the Punisher was basically done as a boxer.

Mayweather stans crack me up. It's like talking to Lebron fans.

Oh shit, wait, they are the same segment; no wonder.

plowking

08-16-2016, 11:11 PM

Tyson was 29 when he fought Evander and was dominated.

But we are supposed to believe he was old and washed up.

Naw...he was still Mike

Evander was a better boxer...plain and simple

How old is Derrick Rose?

I guess Rose isn't 10 levels below his MVP year either then, right?

Dray n Klay

08-16-2016, 11:27 PM

Top 10 all-time

The Shaq of boxing

Maybe the most dominant peak, but wasted potential.

jongib369

08-16-2016, 11:30 PM

http://dugger-s-ranch.2299399.n4.nabble.com/file/n4654790/marcianotysonrightok4.jpg

http://a-j-s-boom-boom-room.2299399.n4.nabble.com/file/n4657255/tysonmarciano3hk3.jpg

~primetime~

08-16-2016, 11:42 PM

How old is Derrick Rose?

I guess Rose isn't 10 levels below his MVP year either then, right?
Rose has been completely decimated by injury. That never happened to Tyson.

He went to jail for a year and came out ripped as fck.

~primetime~

08-16-2016, 11:46 PM

Top 10 all-time

The Shaq of boxing

Maybe the most dominant peak, but wasted potential.
http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/ring_80_best.htm

More like top-72 all time

Tyson's resume sucks, he beat no one with a shit, a washed up Spinks is his best defeat.

Orlando Magic

08-16-2016, 11:56 PM

Young Mike peaked way way before he fought Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis.

The most underrated part of his game was his speed. Combining that much speed AND that much power was something boxing hadn't seen before nor since. Tyson moved like lightning. People start to lose speed early in life. Strength can be and is gained for a significant period of time but speed starts to deteriorate rather quickly and peaks during your late teens and REALLY early 20s.

Plus Tyson's neck was as thick as some guys' waist. Ok, exaggerating, but not by much. This is what allowed him to take a beating to the head and remain relatively unfazed.

If anyone thinks that Douglas beat peak Mike, they're crazy. Don King was the downfall of Tyson.

Ali admitted on more than one occasion that Tyson would have beaten him peak for peak quite easily.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 12:01 AM

Tyson was 24 when he fought Douglas but he was over the hill?

Okay...:rolleyes:

Tyson apologists are the worst.

ONLY 20 year old Tyson was the greatest ever lol

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 12:04 AM

Rose has been completely decimated by injury. That never happened to Tyson.

He went to jail for a year and came out ripped as fck.

Is this dude trying to spin going to jail for 3 years as a positive thing?

lmao stop posting

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 12:05 AM

Tyson was 29 when he fought Evander and was dominated.

But we are supposed to believe he was old and washed up.

Naw...he was still Mike

Evander was a better boxer...plain and simple

The excuses are nonsensical and never-ending.

I've never heard of an athlete who was washed up and way past his prime at 23 years old barring major injury like dudes claim Tyson was when he was dominated and put out of his misery by B-fighter James Buster Douglas.

If these apologists are to be believed, Tyson's prime ended when Cus D'Amato died... Meaning Tyson was a has-been a few months after he turned 19 years old. :facepalm

Tyson before being re-exposed by Evander was doing exactly what he had been doing during his 'prime' which only apparently lasted a couple of months- knocking out overmatched fighters in 3 rounds or less.

Tyson's 4 fights before getting KO'ed by Holyfield

Vs Bruce Seldon (https://youtu.be/bcRXu8PyZe8?t=2m9s)

Vs Frank Bruno (https://youtu.be/JMrQjQAzVRs?t=55s) (Took Mike 5 rounds to TKO Bruno when they fought in '89)

Vs Buster Mathis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAjDR9OahgY)

Vs Peter McNeeley (https://youtu.be/Oww5zb0XvHg?t=2m59s) :roll:

4-0, 4 KOs in 3 rounds or less.

Evander on the flipside, was 4 years older than Tyson and coming off a record of 2-2 prior to their meeting- including a split decision loss against Michael Moorer (who Tyson didn't fight) and a TKO loss to Riddick Bowe (https://youtu.be/q7LAhRHXgJY?t=4m) (who Tyson avoided).

No wonder that Evander opened as the 25-1 underdog.

But the way certain people retell History now, Evander was a young prime, undefeated beast going up against a senior citizen Tyson who forgot how to even box when Cus died 11 years earlier.

How old is Derrick Rose?

I guess Rose isn't 10 levels below his MVP year either then, right?

Snorting cocaine during training camp doesn't count as a career-threatening injury. :yaohappy:

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 12:15 AM

^^^ exactly

And if Tyson was only "great" from age 18-22 then he isn't even close to being one of the greatest ever.

Legendary heavyweights have dominated well into their 30s.

Orlando Magic

08-17-2016, 12:21 AM

^^^ exactly

And if Tyson was only "great" from age 18-22 then he isn't even close to being one of the greatest ever.

Legendary heavyweights have dominated well into their 30s.

Because most heavyweights don't rely on their speed as much as Tyson did. He was unique. Why do you think Foreman was still effective at such an old age? That knockout power, his speed long gone.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 12:23 AM

Because most heavyweights don't rely on their speed as much as Tyson did. He was unique. Why do you think Foreman was still effective at such an old age? That knockout power, his speed long gone.

So Tyson had lost his speed by age 23 when B-fighter James Buster Douglas dominated and then knocked him out? :durantunimpressed:

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 12:28 AM

So Tyson had lost his speed by age 23 when B-fighter James Buster Douglas dominated and then knocked him out? :durantunimpressed:

Come on man, Mike was waaaaaaaay past his prime at that age, obviously.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 12:32 AM

Meanwhile Mayweather dominating Pacquiao with raw speed at age 38.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 12:34 AM

Come on man, Mike was waaaaaaaay past his prime at that age, obviously.

I want everyone in this thread to watch that video I posted of Bowe-Holyfield III. Listen to what the commentators are saying about Holyfield, 4 years Mike's senior. Heart condition, devastating KO loss, everyone talking about him hanging them up.

But Mike, coming off of 4 straight 3rd round or less KO wins was the washed up fighter when they met a year later. Why? Because Cus died when he was 19 and he lost all his speed by age 23.

Amazing. :lol

plowking

08-17-2016, 12:56 AM

^^^ exactly

And if Tyson was only "great" from age 18-22 then he isn't even close to being one of the greatest ever.

Legendary heavyweights have dominated well into their 30s.

You literally tried to spin his time in jail as a positive thing.

And you didn't understand the question to begin with. How good was he. Not whether or not he was the greatest. He clearly isn't based on his career. He sure as hell is a better fighter than Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield at his best though.

If you can't see the difference between the fighter that fought after jail (and even way prior like I said earlier in the thread) and the fighter that won the heavyweight title as the youngest champ ever, than you don't know shit. Not just about boxing, but sports in general. The fact you couldn't see a baffling drop off in movement, combos in his punches, and most of all speed... I don't know what to tell you.

Believe what you want to believe. I know I won't take your opinion seriously when you actually thought jail time served him well for boxing. :oldlol:
Not to mention the fact you try and throw everyone in the same cookie cutter stencil of "well he is this age, so he has to be in his prime". So many things adversely impact your performance. Mike was a mental midget, we know that. Doesn't mean he wasn't a devastating champion at his best, however short that may have been.

plowking

08-17-2016, 12:57 AM

I want everyone in this thread to watch that video I posted of Bowe-Holyfield III. Listen to what the commentators are saying about Holyfield, 4 years Mike's senior. Heart condition, devastating KO loss, everyone talking about him hanging them up.

But Mike, coming off of 4 straight 3rd round or less KO wins was the washed up fighter when they met a year later. Why? Because Cus died when he was 19 and he lost all his speed by age 23.

Amazing. :lol

You literally keep avoiding the same question over and over, because you know that answer.

Was Mike as good as he was when he won the title when he fought Holyfield? :oldlol:

plowking

08-17-2016, 12:58 AM

Meanwhile Mayweather dominating Pacquiao with raw speed at age 38.

Yeah. Clearly it is the same thing being 220lbs and 140lbs.

NBAplayoffs2001

08-17-2016, 01:03 AM

Enough for my former boss reminiscing how fun he was to watch in the late 80s/mid 90s.

He was just entertaining to watch fight mostly, he used to be a great technician early in his career. 80s Tyson was an absolute monster but a decent argument can be made that it was a weak heavyweight era (had some good fighters for sure but none that were on the level of Holyfield, Bowe, Lennox like in the 90s). The 90s had some good fighters too arguably better than the 80s fighters in general.

In my opinion, only 70s heavyweight boxing in recent memory outclashes 90s heavyweight boxing in overall depth.

I prefer heavyweight/middleweight over other classes. I prefer knockout punches and power shots. I just don't see heavyweight being re-vitalized anytime soon especially with the popularity that UFC is generating. I'm sure there are plenty of UFC fighters out there who can probably pick up boxing within a few years.

UFC to me gets way too intense and I feel the damage done on the body is too severe to really enjoy watching. I guess its' personal preference.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 01:08 AM

You literally keep avoiding the same question over and over, because you know that answer.

Was Mike as good as he was when he won the title when he fought Holyfield? :oldlol:

Which title? The one he won by KO'ing Seldon (WBA) in the first round his previous fight? Or the one before that when he KO'ed Bruno (WBC) in 3? Or are you talking about the one when he was already past prime at 20 years old?

Now was Holyfield, coming off a KO loss to Riddick Bowe, dealing with a heart condition, being 4 years older than Mike and having been in far more wars as good as he was when he KO'ed the great James Buster Douglas to win the undisputed HW crown? :roll:

Who was the more past prime fighter? The 29 year old coming off 4 straight 3rd round or less KOs (winning 2 HW championship crowns in the process) or the 34 year old dealing with heart problems and coming off a devastating KO loss to a guy Tyson avoided?

Why do you think Holyfield opened as the 25-1 betting underdog? Did people not realize that Mike was past his prime at 20 and lost all his speed at 23? :confusedshrug:

NBAplayoffs2001

08-17-2016, 01:11 AM

1991 Holyfield vs. Tyson if it wasn't for the jail this would have been one great fight - this would have been an instant classic. Although '91 Tyson wasn't nearly the same as '88-'89 Tyson. I've watched Tyson's fights and I felt he got sloppy a bit after Spinks and by 1990, it was clear he wasn't the same fighter.

Physically speaking, he looks way more ripped in the 90s (thinking the first fight vs Pete McNeely - Tyson looked shredded) and more physically imposing but he disregarded a lot of the technique that made him the unstoppable fighter in the late 80s.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 01:17 AM

Which title? The one he won by KO'ing Seldon (WBA) in the first round his previous fight? Or the one before that when he KO'ed Bruno (WBC) in 3? Or are you talking about the one when he was already past prime at 20 years old?

Now was Holyfield, coming off a KO loss to Riddick Bowe, dealing with a heart condition, being 4 years older than Mike and having been in far more wars as good as he was when he KO'ed the great James Buster Douglas to win the undisputed HW crown? :roll:

Who was the more past prime fighter? The 29 year old coming off 4 straight 3rd round or less KOs (winning 2 HW championship crowns in the process) or the 34 year old dealing with heart problems and coming off a devastating KO loss to a guy Tyson avoided?

Why do you think Holyfield opened as the 25-1 betting underdog? Did people not realize that Mike was past his prime at 20 and lost all his speed at 23? :confusedshrug:

Yeah everyone thought Mike was going to kill Evander... NO ONE thought he was over the hill

By pure coincidence, Mike was"washed up" when he got the ring with any one worth a shit.

"Mike lost? Oh well obviously he's over the hill, we all know peak Mike would dominate Ali, so he must be past his prime while in his 20s". :facepalm

plowking

08-17-2016, 01:21 AM

Literally can't answer a question because he wants to push a narrative. :oldlol:

We can continue when you actually answer it.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 01:24 AM

Literally can't answer a question because he wants to push a narrative. :oldlol:

We can continue when you actually answer it.
I think Mike at age 20 and Mike at age 28, physically speaking, speed and everything, were not much different at all.

There was mental difference.

All you can do is GUESS that Mike was indestructible at age 20, all evidence says otherwise though.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 01:26 AM

Literally can't answer a question because he wants to push a narrative. :oldlol:

We can continue when you actually answer it.

I haven't seen this many strawmans and meltdowns in awhile :oldlol:

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 01:26 AM

I think Mike at age 20 and Mike at age 28, physically speaking, speed and everything, were not much different at all.

There was mental difference.

All you can do is GUESS that Mike was indestructible at age 20, all evidence says otherwise though.

lmao this guy is seriously way too much

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 01:26 AM

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 01:28 AM

Literally can't answer a question because he wants to push a narrative. :oldlol:

Was Mike as good as he was when he won the title when he fought Holyfield?:oldlol:

Tyson's last 2 fight heading into getting KFTO by Holyfield (25-1 Underdog)
Seldon- KO 1st Round Won the WBA World Heavyweight Championship
Bruno- KO 3rd Round Won the WBC World Heavyweight Championsip

Literally.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 01:29 AM

Tyson's last 2 fight heading into getting KFTO by Holyfield (25-1 Underdog)
Seldon- KO 1st Round Won the WBA World Heavyweight Championship
Bruno- KO 3rd Round Won the WBC World Heavyweight Championsip

Literally.
Yep he looked the exact same, and everyone thought he was the exact same.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 01:33 AM

To me it is clear that if prime 20 year old Mike fight Ali he'd get obliterated.

Hell if prime Mike fought prime Evander or prime Lennox he loses. You'd be silly to bet on Mike knowing what know now.

Tyson at 23 vs Buster Douglas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ08eWV4ME)

Holyfield at 28 Vs Buster Douglas (https://youtu.be/siheWCzIL90?t=13m20s)

Evander wipes his ass with Mike at any point of either's career. Same with Lennox. Same with Bowe if Tyson ever stopped using the 'best friends' excuse to avoid him.

Evander whooped his ass twice to show the first wasn't a fluke. Frustrated Mike to the point of biting off the man's ear. :lol

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 01:37 AM

Yep he looked the exact same, and everyone thought he was the exact same.

And Trevor Berbick was not better than Seldon or Bruno. That stretch of fighters that Tyson fought leading up to Holyfield (sans McNeeley :roll: ) was of a much higher quality than the trash cans he fought in the 80s.

He actually fought Bruno in '89 and had a much harder time with him than he did in '96 when he won the HW championship from him in 3 rounds.

~primetime~

08-17-2016, 01:39 AM

I watched all of Mike's fights, from his belt win to his last fight. After the Douglas fight every excuse in the book was thrown out, and young me bought into them. There were conspiracy theories, "mike didn't train", buster really lost, the ref fcked up, etc etc etc

You watch that fight today? It's clear as day that Mike just got out boxed by a determined boxer who just lost his mom. Buster beat his ass, plain and simple.

The excuse for Evander 1 was "he fckin head butted him!!!"

Evander 2... Excuses started to fade into "Mike's not the same:( "

Lennox jabbed him to death...twice... All remaining Tyson fans silent

plowking

08-17-2016, 02:39 AM

Still. Has not said a yes or no. :oldlol:

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 02:41 AM

Deja Vu- A fight between Holyfield and Prime Tyson (17 years old w/ Cus in his corner) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjM61hVbgNI) had to be stopped when Evander got him in the corner and went to work.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-17-2016/92yIEX.gif

17 years old.

30 years old.

Prime. Not Prime.

Death. Taxes. Evander whooping Mike's ass. Always ends the same. Any point of their careers. :yaohappy:

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 02:56 AM

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 03:13 AM

Tyson was a 17 year old kid

Evander was a 20 year old young man

Big difference

Haven't you been paying attention? Mike's prime = Mike with Cus, when he had his speed (which was gone at 23 years old). Cus died a handful of months after Tyson had turned 19. So Mike's prime was age 15-19. By 18 Tyson was a pro knocking out grown ass men professionally, many older than Evander, in a single round.

Prime Tyson at 15 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQKI7dM9sGw)

And the 'big size difference' was actually Tyson being a HW from the beginning and Holyfield being a career Cruiserweight. People thought he was too small to compete at HW when he made the jump. He was only 208 lbs when he knocked out the great James 'Buster' Douglas to become undisputed HW champion after Buster the Great dominated and KO'ed 23 year old, slow, past prime Mike. Mike was at 220 lbs against Buster.

And Evander whooped his ass when they were 30 and 34 respectively... Then again when they were 31 and 35. After having previously whooped his ass when they were 17 and 21.

3 constants in life- Death. Taxes. Evander Whooping Mike's ass. Any point.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-17-2016/RJETVJ.gif

Bawkish

08-17-2016, 10:04 AM

LOL at the infatuation with Tyson here. Yes he's fast & he's strong but not mentally. Had the fight between Holyfield & Tyson happened pre-jail, Evander would still beat Tyson.

Also i laugh at the "tough times" that happened to Tyson as if he's the unluckiest sob in boxing. Many boxers have gone worse and still able to overcome adversaries & mark themselves in the sport.

97 bulls

08-17-2016, 11:11 AM

I haven't gone through all the posts. But to say Tyson was over the hill at 23 is just insane. Tyson checked out mentally. He just didn't work hard. All reports said such. Customers kept him on check. Once he died, it was only a matter of time.

But a motivated drug free Tyson? Different animal.

Pointguard

08-17-2016, 06:42 PM

It's absurd to even compare Tyson and Mayweather, especially when talking about that specific quality in a fighter. Mayweather was actually the master at what I described in the post you quoted ... he would take the first few rounds to feel a guy out, get his rhythm, measure the distance, and just tactically take him apart.
I didn't make a comparison except to their relationship to greatness - that fighters make their adaptions to Tyson and Mayweather's overwhelming qualities. My statement "They couldn't adapt to him despite him not being an offensive power house." makes this very clear. Nothing absurd there at all.

Mayweather fine tuned his game after the first few rounds. He didn't change his game like say a Crawford or Ward can and often do.

Although many of his fights "looked" the same in that they turned into Mayweather pot-shotting the opponent while the other guy tried (and failed) to find a way to counter him, he would use different strategies depending upon the fighter and the style in front of him.
He fine tuned it, he didn't change. In the end the opponent got hit the same way most of the time. Most of his fights look remarkably similar. Which to me was his greatest trait. Alvarez, Manny and Marquez all looked very similar ('why am I so useless here"}

When I said Tyson was unable to adapt in the ring when things went sideways, Mayweather would be one of the guys I'd use as an example of great fighters who were constantly adapting and re-adapting in the ring, as the fight was happening. That was maybe his greatest trait.
He was primarily a defensive fighter that had an impeccable shield and will pop shot you to death. He rarely every changed up like Ward and Crawford.

If Tyson didn't hurt/intimidate a guy who was good enough to match his athletic talent, he had no idea how to respond. .
Mike Tyson was 37 and 0 in his first 4 years of boxing which is a legit boxing career within itself. He had 9 title fights by that time. So at 9 fights a year to suggest that he wasn't spontaneous and had no idea how to respond to a new situation, or a less than intimidated opponent is a bit absurd. But if you don't look at his qualities, top five defense all time of HW champs, top three power left hand, top three power right hand, one of the best combination punchers, one of the best killer instincts, and tell that there is a definite difference when he fought Holyfield and Douglas I can't tell you anything.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 07:16 PM

Also i laugh at the "tough times" that happened to Tyson as if he's the unluckiest sob in boxing. Many boxers have gone worse and still able to overcome adversaries & mark themselves in the sport.

It really is something to behold. Tyson goes into the Douglas fight as the undefeated, undisputed HW champion (37-0, 33 KOs)- so much a favorite that Vegas refused to take bets on the match (Technically Buster was a 42-1 underdog). But Tyson lost, not because he faced a style that would prove time and time again to be anathema to his, but because Cus D'Amato died 5 years earlier and because Robin Givens was annoying.

Meanwhile, Buster's mother died of a stroke 3 weeks before the fight. At the same time, his son Lamar's mother was dealing with cancer. Two of his brothers had been shot and murdered.

Then when it was time to fight Evander, Tyson was coming off 4 straight 3rd round or less KOs, winning 2 straight HW titles in the process. His final fight leading to the Holyfield clash was a 1 round KO destruction of Bruce Seldon wherein he won the WBA World Title.

Meanwhile, Evander was coming off a 2-2 record including a split decision loss to Michael Moorer and a devastating KO loss to Riddick Bowe. Most pundits thought the Real Deal was done following the brutal final chapter of the Bowe trilogy. He was diagnosed with several serious heart conditions following the Moorer bout, including A HOLE IN HIS HEART (http://beta.deseretnews.com/article/349990/DOCTORS-FIND-ANOTHER-PROBLEM-WITH-EVANDER-HOLYFIELDS-HEART.html?pg=all).

But remember, Tyson lost twice in a row to Holyfield, including getting KTFO, not because Evander was clearly the superior fighter, but because Cus died in 1985.

People will cling to myths for dear life, no matter how ridiculous they are. :lol

top five defense all time of HW champs

:biggums:

We're in Bigfoot or Loch Ness territory now.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 07:17 PM

Haven't you been paying attention? Mike's prime = Mike with Cus, when he had his speed (which was gone at 23 years old). Cus died a handful of months after Tyson had turned 19. So Mike's prime was age 15-19. By 18 Tyson was a pro knocking out grown ass men professionally, many older than Evander, in a single round.

Prime Tyson at 15 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQKI7dM9sGw)

And the 'big size difference' was actually Tyson being a HW from the beginning and Holyfield being a career Cruiserweight. People thought he was too small to compete at HW when he made the jump. He was only 208 lbs when he knocked out the great James 'Buster' Douglas to become undisputed HW champion after Buster the Great dominated and KO'ed 23 year old, slow, past prime Mike. Mike was at 220 lbs against Buster.

And Evander whooped his ass when they were 30 and 34 respectively... Then again when they were 31 and 35. After having previously whooped his ass when they were 17 and 21.

3 constants in life- Death. Taxes. Evander Whooping Mike's ass. Any point.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-17-2016/RJETVJ.gif

Did not read

Tyson was a 17 year old kid

Evander was a 20 year old man

End of discussion

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 07:24 PM

Did not read

Tyson was a 17 year old kid

Evander was a 20 year old man

End of discussion

Evander also whooped his ass when Tyson was 30 and he ws 34 (with several life-threatening heart conditions, as the 25-1 underdog)... And then whooped his ass again a year later.

Death. Taxes. Evander whooping Mike's ass.

They could meet again tomorrow at a parking lot of a Wal-Mart and a cashier would have to step in to save Mike after the Real Deal beat him down again. :lol

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 07:35 PM

Evander also whooped his ass when Tyson was 30 and he ws 34 (with several life-threatening heart conditions, as the 25-1 underdog)... And then whooped his ass again a year later.

Death. Taxes. Evander whooping Mike's ass.

They could meet again tomorrow at a parking lot of a Wal-Mart and a cashier would have to step in to save Mike after the Real Deal beat him down again. :lol

(After Tyson underwent 3 years in prison)

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 07:51 PM

(After Tyson underwent 3 years in prison)

Tyson got KTFO by Buster before jail.

Tyson was 4-0, 4 KOs in the 3rd round or sooner, winning 2 HW titles going into the Holyfield fight.

Holyfield was coming off what people thought was a career-ending KO loss to a guy Tyson ducked while dealing with several heart conditions. Opened as the 25-1 underdog.

Ali spent 3 years in forced exile and went on to beat Joe Frazier twice, beat the undefeated Foreman when he was the 4-1 underdog (Tyson would go on to duck a fat, old Foreman in the 90s), Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, etc past his prime... While Mike fought Peter McNeeley and got his ass whooped by Evander twice. :lol

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:01 PM

Tyson got KTFO by Buster before jail.

Tyson was 4-0, 4 KOs in the 3rd round or sooner, winning 2 HW titles going into the Holyfield fight.

Holyfield was coming off what people thought was a career-ending KO loss to a guy Tyson ducked while dealing with several heart conditions. Opened as the 25-1 underdog.

Ali spent 3 years in forced exile and went on to beat Joe Frazier twice, beat the undefeated Foreman when he was the 4-1 underdog (Tyson would go on to duck a fat, old Foreman in the 90s), Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, etc past his prime... While Mike fought Peter McNeeley and got his ass whooped by Evander twice. :lol

Regardless of record, Tyson was not the same fighter after prison

3 years of exile isn't 3 years in prison

RedBlackAttack

08-17-2016, 08:03 PM

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:05 PM

When Tyson got out of prison, the HW division was much better by a big margin than it was before he was locked up.

He could've have fights with Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Holyfield, Moorer, Morrison, and even a way past prime but still dangerous Foreman.

He instead chose to fight Peter McNeeley and a host of other also-rans, who were sadly still better than the tomato cans that were his bread and butter in the 80s.

Of all the marquee guys he could've taken on, he chose the one that looked the weakest and most vulnerable in Holyfield who was coming off a devastating KO and was suffering from serious heart conditions.

Still got his ass whooped twice. :yaohappy:

I'm pretty sure that overhand right would end someone's life if he connected bare-fisted. Holy mother of god.

Yeah, Real Deal timed that to perfection.

His KO of Buster was also a thing of beauty.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:10 PM

Don, spending 3 years in prison isn't helpful for a professional fighter

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:14 PM

Regardless of record, Tyson was not the same fighter after prison

3 years of exile isn't 3 years in prison

Or Maybe... (https://youtu.be/PH8nTfxwByY?t=51s)

Ali was stripped of his boxing license and titles and barred from Boxing for 3 years.

Did he come back and duck the likes of Frazier, Foreman, Norton, etc?

Had every excuse available in the book... But the great man did it (4-1 underdog) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3fAYpSVfk) :banana: :bowdown:

Mike refused to fight a fat, old Foreman in his 40s some 20 years later... Just to put things in perspective. :ohwell:

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:16 PM

Or Maybe... (https://youtu.be/PH8nTfxwByY?t=51s)

Ali was stripped of his boxing license and titles and barred from Boxing for 3 years.

Did he come back and duck the likes of Frazier, Foreman, Norton, etc?

Had every excuse available in the book... But the great man did it (4-1 underdog) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3fAYpSVfk) :banana: :bowdown:

Mike refused to fight a fat, old Foreman in his 40s some 20 years later... Just to put things in perspective. :ohwell:

Was Ali in prison for three years?

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:19 PM

Don, spending 3 years in prison isn't helpful for a professional fighter

George Foreman spent a full decade away from the ring. Came back, old and fat, and fought better opponents than Iron Mike did in the 90s.

Big George at 46 years old Won the HW crown from the undefeated Moorer (who Tyson didn't fight) (https://youtu.be/U0SONoA5L1g?t=2m)

Big George also did much better against a prime 29 year old Holyfield than Tyson did against the washed up version with heart conditions.

Holyfield has stated several times that George was by far the strongest and hardest hitting fighter he ever faced. Tyson mythologists can't stop holding Ls.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:23 PM

George Foreman spent a full decade away from the ring. Came back, old and fat, and fought better opponents than Iron Mike did in the 90s.

Big George at 46 years old Won the HW crown from the undefeated Moorer (who Tyson didn't fight) (https://youtu.be/U0SONoA5L1g?t=2m)

Big George also did much better against a prime 29 year old Holyfield than Tyson did against the washed up version with heart conditions.

Holyfield has stated several times that George was by far the strongest and hardest hitting fighter he ever faced. Tyson mythologists can't stop holding Ls.

So being "away from the ring" is the same as being locked up for three years in prison...

Got it.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:28 PM

So being "away from the ring" is the same as being locked up for three years in prison...

Got it.

Why was Tyson able to win 4 straight fights by KO in 4 rounds or less, picking up 2 titles along the way, after 3 years in prison?

In your estimation.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:29 PM

Why was Tyson able to win 4 straight fights by KO in 4 rounds or less, picking up 2 titles along the way, after 3 years in prison?

In your estimation.
Because he was one of the most talented fighters of his generation

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:35 PM

Because he was one of the most talented fighters of his generation

Just not against the likes of Evander Holyfield?

3 years in the pen. Comes out and looks like the old Mike. Early knockouts, wins World titles.

Gets KTFO by a past prime 25-1 underdog Holyfield.

Why didn't his jail stint affect his performances against Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Buster Mathis Jr. but it did against Evander apparently? :confusedshrug:

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:37 PM

Just not against the likes of Evander Holyfield?

3 years in the pen. Comes out and looks like the old Mike. Early knockouts, wins World titles.

Gets KTFO by a past prime 25-1 underdog Holyfield.

Why didn't his jail stint affect his performances against Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Buster Mathis Jr. but it did against Evander apparently? :confusedshrug:

Because Evander Holyfield is a better boxer than Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Buster Mathis Jr.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 08:42 PM

Because Evander Holyfield is a better boxer than Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Buster Mathis Jr.

And a better boxer than Mike Tyson too. :applause:

Seldon, Bruno, and Mathis were exactly the type of fighters Mike picked on in the 80s, better even. He actually fought Bruno in '89 and it took him 5 rounds then to TKO him.

So you just admitted that Tyson wasn't affected by his jail stint, it was just that he finally stepped up his level of competition and got smacked down as a result.

Now you know why he didn't fight Lennox, Riddick, or Big George when he got out.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 08:55 PM

And a better boxer than Mike Tyson too. :applause:

Seldon, Bruno, and Mathis were exactly the type of fighters Mike picked on in the 80s, better even. He actually fought Bruno in '89 and it took him 5 rounds then to TKO him.

So you just admitted that Tyson wasn't affected by his jail stint, it was just that he finally stepped up his level of competition and got smacked down as a result.

Now you know why he didn't fight Lennox, Riddick, or Big George when he got out.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61431889.jpg

Nastradamus

08-17-2016, 08:55 PM

Plus everyone forgets this part. "Kevin Rooney was the trainer of world heavyweight champion Mike Tyson from the start of his professional career in 1985, up until Tyson's bout with Michael Spinks in 1988. "

Not only did losing Cus and then Rooney crush Tyson, but it was also that Don King and his people took over everything at that point. The wheels officially came off.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 09:00 PM

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61431889.jpg

What's the issue, homie?

Plus everyone forgets this part. "Kevin Rooney was the trainer of world heavyweight champion Mike Tyson from the start of his professional career in 1985, up until Tyson's bout with Michael Spinks in 1988. "

Not only did losing Cus and then Rooney crush Tyson, but it was also that Don King and his people took over everything at that point. The wheels officially came off.

Ah, so now it's Kevin Rooney leaving. :lol

Professional boxers change trainers like socks.

And Tyson wasn't the only fighter associated with Don King. Don was the promoter of fighters like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holyfield, etc... But of course it only affected Mike and no one else. :rolleyes:

Nastradamus

08-17-2016, 09:05 PM

lmao you're a know-nothing boxing fan if there ever was on. Literally no one thinks he beat Castillo and the rematch was close as shit, I had 7 rounds to 5 for Floyd. The first meeting theres literally no way you can give Floyd more than 4 rounds unless you're racist/or black/a Mayweather lackey.

A shitload of people thought Maidana won, a lot of people had him up 4-2 or 5-1 after 6 rounds, I personally scored it 115-113 Floyd but you'd need to be an absolute sheep to think Mayweather won that fought clearly.

Who was the Punisher 'exposed' by? A freak loss to Quintana (who he then KO'd) or was it the incredibly mediocre prime Maravilla??? You tell me.

or was it Lara when the Punisher was basically done as a boxer.

Mayweather stans crack me up. It's like talking to Lebron fans.

Oh shit, wait, they are the same segment; no wonder.

Lol, only people who are butt hurt that Floyd is undefeated try to make it seem like Castillo 1 was a loss. The only reason it was close is because he tore his shoulder halfway through.

The 2nd one was domination and Castillo even said after the fight something along the lines of "I had no answers for him"

Maidana fought a good fight, but it was pretty unanimous that he won. He outlanded him for the fight by having some huge rounds, but he hit a lot of arms

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 09:07 PM

Don, for all of our sake, I really hope you are not this stupid and this is just trolling

Mike Tyson's ability as a fighter decreased during his 3 year prison sentence. After Tyson was released he was able to defeat lesser fighters but was unable to beat Holyfield. To act like serving a 3 year prison sentence has no effect on a fighter is just being incredibly stupid, or trolling.

Nastradamus

08-17-2016, 09:11 PM

What's the issue, homie?

Ah, so now it's Kevin Rooney leaving. :lol

Professional boxers change trainers like socks.

And Tyson wasn't the only fighter associated with Don King. Don was the promoter of fighters like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holyfield, etc... But of course it only affected Mike and no one else. :rolleyes:

Don made him clear out everyone who was close to him and Rooney was actually able to reach him, get him to train and get him to use the style he was so good at that he learned from Cus. Now you're just being thick. I know its fun to go back and create cute narratives, but anyone paying attention at the time, or who is interested in boxing historically knows this is how things went down.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 09:15 PM

Don, for all of our sake, I really hope you are not this stupid and this is just trolling

It is neither. It is reality.

Mike Tyson's ability as a fighter decreased during his 3 year prison sentence.

He was doing the same exact thing he was doing prior to going to jail and prior to getting KTFO by Buster Douglas.

After Tyson was released he was able to defeat lesser fighters but was unable to beat Holyfield.

So prison had no affect on his ability to do what he was doing before he went to prison, but it affected him against a past prime Evander?

Who in the 80s, or whenever you consider Mike's prime, did he fight that was comparable to the talent level of past prime Holyfield?

Was his loss to Buster also due to his prison stint?

To act like serving a 3 year prison sentence has no effect on a fighter is just being incredibly stupid, or trolling.

Bernard Hopkins did a 5 year prison stint. Came out and became the longest reigning MW champion in History. Also became the oldest champion in Boxing History.

Rooster

08-17-2016, 09:20 PM

Don made him clear out everyone who was close to him and Rooney was actually able to reach him, get him to train and get him to use the style he was so good at that he learned from Cus. Now you're just being thick. I know its fun to go back and create cute narratives, but anyone paying attention at the time, or who is interested in boxing historically knows this is how things went down.

I ain't no historian but I always believed that Cus was alive to see through everything, Tyson would have been greater and could have stayed in the rails a little longer. He was the only guy Tyson respected and quite possibly the most significant positive influence in Tyson's life. But I think eventually, Cus will walk out on Tyson just like Futch did with Bowe.

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 09:20 PM

Tyson wasn't as good as a boxer as he was before prison

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 09:27 PM

Tyson wasn't as good as a boxer as he was before prison

Yet he knocked HW champion Frank Bruno out in 3 in 1996 when it took him 5 rounds to do it in 1989. He also got KTFO by Buster Douglas in 1990.

Tyson came out of jail looking like a fire hydrant on steroids and he was KO'ing guys in the same exact manner he had done before going to prison.

Only difference was he stepped up his level of competition for once.

During his prime, whenever you think it was, he never came remotely close to fighting anyone of the caliber of a past prime Holyfield.

Who are the marquee wins on Tyson's record? Why didn't he take on any of the good fighters of the early 90s outside of Holyfield who looked like he was done after Bowe III?

These are questions the apologists need to answer. I'll be here when you're ready to. :cheers:

warriorfan

08-17-2016, 09:39 PM

Tyson came out of jail looking like a fire hydrant on steroids
Imagine how he would of looked if he didn't have to serve the prior 3 years in prison?

Rooster

08-17-2016, 09:40 PM

Yet he knocked HW champion Frank Bruno out in 3 in 1996 when it took him 5 rounds to do it in 1989. He also got KTFO by Buster Douglas in 1990.

Tyson came out of jail looking like a fire hydrant on steroids and he was KO'ing guys in the same exact manner he had done before going to prison.

Only difference was he stepped up his level of competition for once.

During his prime, whenever you think it was, he never came remotely close to fighting anyone of the caliber of a past prime Holyfield.

Who are the marquee wins on Tyson's record? Why didn't he take on any of the good fighters of the early 90s outside of Holyfield who looked like he was done after Bowe III?

These are questions the apologists need to answer. I'll be here when you're ready to. :cheers:

Razor Ruddock was certainly no slouch, he was a good fighter. Tyson fought him twice and took his soul.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 09:53 PM

Razor Ruddock was certainly no slouch, he was a good fighter. Tyson fought him twice and took his soul.

Razor Ruddock. The best fighter Mike Tyson beat.

But he didn't fight Lennox until the new Millenium (and on cue, proceeded to get KTFO). Avoided Bowe. Even avoided Fat Old George. Got KTFO by Evander and Buster Douglas.

Imagine how he would of looked if he didn't have to serve the prior 3 years in prison?

Tyson pre-jail, before getting KTFO by Buster Douglas:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/30/18/27/3018278fdb265b560d224667618ee7fe.jpg
(1989 First Bruno fight, won by 5th round TKO)

Tyson post-jail, winning 4 fights by 3rd round or less KOs and picking up 2 World titles:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9d/38/19/9d38192afd0f5b1cddbfa8440ee14ebf.jpg

(1996 2nd Bruno fight, won by 3rd round TKO)

Imagine.

Nastradamus

08-17-2016, 09:55 PM

I ain't no historian but I always believed that Cus was alive to see through everything, Tyson would have been greater and could have stayed in the rails a little longer. He was the only guy Tyson respected and quite possibly the most significant positive influence in Tyson's life. But I think eventually, Cus will walk out on Tyson just like Futch did with Bowe.

and Don King kicked the rest of the people he considered family out of his circle. He didn't want Tyson looking closely at things or making smart decisions. King saw a guy in Tyson that he knew he could take advantage of. He didn't do it to everyone, but Tyson certainly isn't the only one.

Nastradamus

08-17-2016, 09:57 PM

Razor Ruddock. The best fighter Mike Tyson beat.

But he didn't fight Lennox until the new Millenium (and on cue, proceeded to get KTFO). Avoided Bowe. Even avoided Fat Old George. Got KTFO by Evander and Buster Douglas.

Tyson pre-jail, before getting KTFO by Buster Douglas:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/30/18/27/3018278fdb265b560d224667618ee7fe.jpg
(1989 First Bruno fight, won by 5th round TKO)

Tyson post-jail, winning 4 fights by 3rd round or less KOs and picking up 2 World titles:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9d/38/19/9d38192afd0f5b1cddbfa8440ee14ebf.jpg

(1996 2nd Bruno fight, won by 3rd round TKO)

Imagine.

The problem isn't whether he's ripped or not and I think you're smart enough to know that.

DonDadda59

08-17-2016, 10:00 PM

The problem isn't whether he's ripped or not and I think you're smart enough to know that.

Dude was fighting the same sort of guys post jail as he was pre jail. In Bruno's case it was a literal fact. :lol

And he was knocking them out faster. :crazysam:

Rooster

08-17-2016, 10:06 PM

Razor Ruddock. The best fighter Mike Tyson beat.

But he didn't fight Lennox until the new Millenium (and on cue, proceeded to get KTFO). Avoided Bowe. Even avoided Fat Old George. Got KTFO by Evander and Buster Douglas.

Tyson pre-jail, before getting KTFO by Buster Douglas:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/30/18/27/3018278fdb265b560d224667618ee7fe.jpg
(1989 First Bruno fight, won by 5th round TKO)

Tyson post-jail, winning 4 fights by 3rd round or less KOs and picking up 2 World titles:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9d/38/19/9d38192afd0f5b1cddbfa8440ee14ebf.jpg

(1996 2nd Bruno fight, won by 3rd round TKO)

Imagine.

Bowe got the best of Holyfield. Do you think the Bowe that fought Golota would have beaten Holyfield?

Bawkish

08-18-2016, 12:36 AM

Imagine how he would of looked if he didn't have to serve the prior 3 years in prison?

WTF? you actin as if he's jailed in San Quentin or Oz or something

he probably have the luxurious cell in the correctional facility for all we know

Tyson abilities & strengths were effective & great, no doubt. But against a good boxer with great footwork or great jab, only time will tell & he'll get his due. Hell i bet a sane focused Golota could've beaten Tyson in his prime

Bawkish

08-18-2016, 12:41 AM

Bowe got the best of Holyfield. Do you think the Bowe that fought Golota would have beaten Holyfield?

Bowe beat Holyfield on that 3rd fight because Evander have nothin left in his tank & his heart is giving out, literally.

Bowe fought his last great fight when he beat Holyfield 1st time. After that, he's on decline. But i believe a healthy Evander could've beaten Bowe

Rooster

08-18-2016, 01:21 AM

WTF? you actin as if he's jailed in San Quentin or Oz or something

he probably have the luxurious cell in the correctional facility for all we know

Tyson abilities & strengths were effective & great, no doubt. But against a good boxer with great footwork or great jab, only time will tell & he'll get his due. Hell i bet a sane focused Golota could've beaten Tyson in his prime

Ruddock was a good boxer with a great slicing jab and punch like a mofo, smash with those mean left hooks and by the time Tyson done with him, he was never the same.

Golota can't even beat a shot version of Tyson:no: . Golota would be in a Tyson highlights especially with the sane and focus Tyson. Let's not make Golota like he was something:rolleyes:

Rooster

08-18-2016, 01:27 AM

Bowe beat Holyfield on that 3rd fight because Evander have nothin left in his tank & his heart is giving out, literally.

Bowe fought his last great fight when he beat Holyfield 1st time. After that, he's on decline. But i believe a healthy Evander could've beaten Bowe

I appreciate your input but I don't think you are following my lead. Whether I agree with you or not, I digress. I rather stay on the topic.

Bawkish

08-18-2016, 02:13 AM

Ruddock was a good boxer with a great slicing jab and punch like a mofo, smash with those mean left hooks and by the time Tyson done with him, he was never the same.

Golota can't even beat a shot version of Tyson:no: . Golota would be in a Tyson highlights especially with the sane and focus Tyson. Let's not make Golota like he was something:rolleyes:

Golota has the skills that can beat Tyson. Golota is a decent boxer & could've been a great one if not for his insanity. Though im not saying he's a hall of famer but he has the boxing skills of one. Too bad he's a mental midget.

i just don't get the "praise worship" of Tyson here. Yes he's all power & speed but he's not indestructible. Like DonDadda says, he just didn't fought the ones who were not intimidated at him like Holyfield or probably Foreman. Part of Tyson's effectiveness is because his opponent is already conceding at him at the opening staredown.

PullupJay

08-26-2016, 05:12 PM

http://sportschew.com/wp-content/uploads/sc41-3.jpg

Pointguard

08-26-2016, 09:03 PM

Golota has the skills that can beat Tyson. Golota is a decent boxer & could've been a great one if not for his insanity. Though im not saying he's a hall of famer but he has the boxing skills of one. Too bad he's a mental midget.

i just don't get the "praise worship" of Tyson here. Yes he's all power & speed but he's not indestructible. Like DonDadda says, he just didn't fought the ones who were not intimidated at him like Holyfield or probably Foreman. Part of Tyson's effectiveness is because his opponent is already conceding at him at the opening staredown.

Tyson was very skilled. One of the most skilled ever in the heavy weight division. He had the best defense to offense skills ever, the best uppercut in the HW division, the best combinations in the division ever, the best cutoff the ring skills in the division ever, the best upperbody defense since Ali in the division, the best step in skills in the division ever. Golotta wasn't the best at anything.

RedBlackAttack

08-26-2016, 10:42 PM

Tyson was very skilled. One of the most skilled ever in the heavy weight division. He had the best defense to offense skills ever, the best uppercut in the HW division, the best combinations in the division ever, the best cutoff the ring skills in the division ever, the best upperbody defense since Ali in the division, the best step in skills in the division ever. Golotta wasn't the best at anything.
In the all-time matchup of mental midgets, Golota was slightly more insane, unpredictable, undisciplined and prone to just quitting when things got tough.

So, in a rare case of Tyson actually being the more mentally stable fighter in the bout, the outcome was fairly predictable.

Odds in Vegas of Golota refusing to come out of his corner at some point in this fight should have been maybe 1/9. Either he was going to knock Mike Tyson out in the first two rounds or he was going to quit. There was no other possible outcome.

And ...

Golota quits on corner versus Tyson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0d3WrtqAW0&t=8m32s)