Will rose get most credit

[eeeeeebro]

Will rose get credit for carrying new york to a deep play offs and would he be marked MVP of team if they get a good record? You know rose is going to have GREEN light to chuck in new york...

OR does this team belong to MELO and does he take credit even though he hasn't done shit since he got to NY. He is an amazing shooter do not get me wrong.. and a good rebounder one of his key scoring capabilities is he out rebounds everyone on his misses.

[swagga]

Will rose get credit for carrying new york to a deep play offs and would he be marked MVP of team if they get a good record? You know rose is going to have GREEN light to chuck in new york...

OR does this team belong to MELO and does he take credit even though he hasn't done shit since he got to NY. He is an amazing shooter do not get me wrong.. and a good rebounder one of his key scoring capabilities is he out rebounds everyone on his misses.

lol this is melo's team son. porzingis is the heir, but melo is still the boss here. I'm actually kindof excited with this team as it can lead to good basketball (of course it can spectacularly fail, we're the knicks after all). Melo needs to play off ball, that's his game, he goes off ball and then spot-up, quick post-up/iso. He is still elite at this type of game, but rose needs to pass him the fuccking ball.

[MintBerryCrunch]

The team goes as far as Porzi takes them.

[nathanjizzle]

yeah, rose will lift the team to be borderline elite, but all the rose detractors will say it was Porzingis or Melos work. and then when you bring up "but melo and prozingis last year was a 30 win team" and they will respond "but porzingis averaged 4 more points this season,but joakim noahs defense , but coach horniceks system, but thibodeau's defense from 4 years ago".

[imdaman99]

Nah, it's KP's team.

[aj1987]

yeah, rose will lift the team to be borderline elite, but all the rose detractors will say it was Porzingis or Melos work. and then when you bring up "but melo and prozingis last year was a 30 win team" and they will respond "but porzingis averaged 4 more points this season,but joakim noahs defense , but coach horniceks system, but thibodeau's defense from 4 years ago".
Reverse the scenarios, tard.

KP isn't a rookie and has a year of NBA basketball under his belt. Melo is healthy for a change. Factor in a new HC and an overall better roster, you'll see why they'd be a better team.

:roll: :roll: @ Rose making the Knicks a borderline "elite" team. :roll: :roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll:

[Pointguard]

yeah, rose will lift the team to be borderline elite, but all the rose detractors will say it was Porzingis or Melos work. and then when you bring up "but melo and prozingis last year was a 30 win team" and they will respond "but porzingis averaged 4 more points this season,but joakim noahs defense , but coach horniceks system, but thibodeau's defense from 4 years ago".

This it's established that Mello can't carry a team, or at least Amari Stoudamire definitely did a better job on the Knicks. Porzingis hasn't paced himself at this level yet and played good til February and did a steep fall off. To say he's ready to carry a team is crazy. If Rose comes back to himself, why would anybody argue the point. That Bulls team wasn't that good. People were saying well look at how deep the Bulls were. While nobody on that team outside of the top four players (which lost 67 games to its 2nd and 3rd best players) could even start for bad teams in their prime.

[smoovegittar]

Most NY fans see this as Melo's team, and KP's to inherit. If they go deep in the playoffs, Jax will get the most credit, and deservedly so. It will be a team effort, but the fact that we now have a legit player at the 1 is going to be a big difference. I'll give Rose a lot of credit if he can keep his ass on the floor.

[Smoke117]

The board to knick fans:

https://media0.giphy.com/media/mrGP72PGwUtjO/200.gif

[Smoke117]

This it's established that Mello can't carry a team, or at least Amari Stoudamire definitely did a better job on the Knicks. Porzingis hasn't paced himself at this level yet and played good til February and did a steep fall off. To say he's ready to carry a team is crazy. If Rose comes back to himself, why would anybody argue the point. That Bulls team wasn't that good. People were saying well look at how deep the Bulls were. While nobody on that team outside of the top four players (which lost 67 games to its 2nd and 3rd best players) could even start for bad teams in their prime.

That Bulls team was the best defensive team in the league...and Rose was by far the least impactful defender of the best 8 players. He didn't carry shit.

[smoovegittar]

The board to knick fans:

https://media0.giphy.com/media/mrGP72PGwUtjO/200.gifThe "board" is comprised mostly of twits. There's very few Knick fans left to read the spewage. BTW, Rose is not going to get run into the ground like in Chicago.

[Pointguard]

That Bulls team was the best defensive team in the league...and Rose was by far the least impactful defender of the best 8 players. He didn't carry shit.
Maybe you should do your homework.

I don't know you, but I guarantee your favorite player never shut out the elite players at his position over the course of a year like Rose did that year. Rose was the best guard defender on the team. That's why he was guarding Wade in the fourth quarters of the ECF and did a better job than any other guard has ever done on a healthy Wade in the playoffs.

If Rose didn't carry them then name me the players outside of Rose that won games for them that year in the playoffs??? Rose DEFINITELY won eight of them. Before you go off on some crazy tangent and ignore my points here, did you watch the Bulls that year? Stop talking about stuff you have no clue about. After Rose went down the next year sucky Philly killed them in the playoffs. Defense couldn't handle Philly?

[aj1987]

I don't know you, but I guarantee your favorite player never shut out the elite players at his position over the course of a year like Rose did that year. Rose was the best guard defender on the team.
Rose was among the WORST on the Bulls, in terms of DRtg and DBPM. The Bulls weren't also a very good offensive team and won games because of their defense.

Yeah, just no. Rose wasn't close to being an elite defender in '11.



That's why he was guarding Wade in the fourth quarters of the ECF and did a better job than any other guard has ever done on a healthy Wade in the playoffs.
Wade played like shit in the ECF. Didn't really matter who guarded him. How did the MVP do, BTW?

Worst MVP since '01.

[Pointguard]

Rose was among the WORST on the Bulls, in terms of DRtg and DBPM. The Bulls weren't also a very good offensive team and won games because of their defense.

Yeah, just no. Rose wasn't close to being an elite defender in '11.
So a great defensive coach puts Rose on Wade at the end of ECF's games. Why, because the other guards are better defensively and Rose was already tired? Use your common sense and eyes. If you are going by stats on defense you are already a lost cause. Never mind a great defensive coach's decisions. You are seriously saying forget your lying eyes and the defensive minded coaches decisions. Defense can only keep a game close. Rose won more games than any player in the fourth quarter that year. You don't have a finisher on a defensive team you don't win games. And the Bulls flipped more fourth quarter leads than any other team.




Wade played like shit in the ECF. Didn't really matter who guarded him. How did the MVP do, BTW?
Thanks, Wade's play was affected by Rose. While he was missing some before Rose got on him. He wasn't driving or getting advantages on Rose. Wade has turned bad games into great games several times in his career. Rose always guards his man and in critical situations will guard the superstar off guard. Why do you think that's so? It kills your argument if you got a thinking apparatus going.

[Pointguard]

Worst MVP since '01.
Nobody got more than 5 votes. With seven players, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard, Mello, Cp3, all in their prime, with 2 HOFers Duncan and KG still having great years playing with championship team/coaches, Durant leading the league in scoring playing with Westbrook. Almost all of them on veteran teams, or great coaches, or with each other, or even championship teams. Rose team had way more injuries, much younger, rookie coach and had the best record. That's 11 HOFers, with at least 8 in a more likely situation to win more games than Rose. I didn't count Curry who is Rose's age so make that 12 HOFers.

Sorry, but to win that year as the youngest MVP in that situation is great no matter how you slice it. Very different if he had a great coach that made it easy to win with young players new to a system that did few offensive sets.

[aj1987]

So a great defensive coach puts Rose on Wade at the end of ECF's games. Why, because the other guards are better defensively and Rose was already tired? Use your common sense and eyes. If you are going by stats on defense you are already a lost cause. Never mind a great defensive coach's decisions. You are seriously saying forget your lying eyes and the defensive minded coaches decisions. Defense can only keep a game close. Rose won more games than any player in the fourth quarter that year. You don't have a finisher on a defensive team you don't win games. And the Bulls flipped more fourth quarter leads than any other team.
tl-dr - I'm right cause I said so.

Come back when you can provide FACTS and/or stats.


Thanks, Wade's play was affected by Rose. While he was missing some before Rose got on him. He wasn't driving or getting advantages on Rose. Wade has turned bad games into great games several times in his career. Rose always guards his man and in critical situations will guard the superstar off guard. Why do you think that's so? It kills your argument if you got a thinking apparatus going.
Dude, now you're just hyping up a Rose to be an ATG defender. Some of the best defenders in the world have had trouble guarding Wade. You think Wade wasn't making his shots because a PG, who's not even close to being an elite defender, was on him. Try to use your brain a bit here.

Wade played like shit in the ENTIRE ECF. That's pretty much a fact. Stop pretending like Rose shut him down. What happened in the RS, when Wade put up 29/6/4 on 56% TS against the Bulls? FACT is, Wade was struggling with AND without Rose guarding him in the ECF.


Nobody got more than 5 votes. With seven players, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard, Mello, Cp3, all in their prime, with 2 HOFers Duncan and KG still having great years playing with championship team/coaches, Durant leading the league in scoring playing with Westbrook. Almost all of them on veteran teams, or great coaches, or with each other, or even championship teams.
Thanks for proving my point. Rose was a terrible MVP and it showed in the ECF, when a real defense actually made him work for his points. What did he shoot? 35%?

[DMAVS41]

Nobody got more than 5 votes. With seven players, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard, Mello, Cp3, all in their prime, with 2 HOFers Duncan and KG still having great years playing with championship team/coaches, Durant leading the league in scoring playing with Westbrook. Almost all of them on veteran teams, or great coaches, or with each other, or even championship teams. Rose team had way more injuries, much younger, rookie coach and had the best record. That's 11 HOFers, with at least 8 in a more likely situation to win more games than Rose. I didn't count Curry who is Rose's age so make that 12 HOFers.

Sorry, but to win that year as the youngest MVP in that situation is great no matter how you slice it. Very different if he had a great coach that made it easy to win with young players new to a system that did few offensive sets.

Being young makes it more impressive...it does not change how good he actually was.

Do you agree?

[nathanjizzle]

Being young makes it more impressive...it does not change how good he actually was.

Do you agree?

it kind of does. it speaks volumes of how good he was if they were willing to give a player thats been in the league 3 years the MVP. usually they give it to tenured players because they have a track record of being great players that created a name for themselves. so its easy at the begining of the season to say these superstars are most likely to win, so by default they are already considered before even playing. rose neither had a track record nor was well known as a star player untill the end of the season and its due to him being young with only 3 seasons. It actually tells alot of how great a player he was to win over so many opinions in 1 season. let me put it this way. if he was 25 and had the same team and same performance, his mvp award would have came easier than at 22 since he would be a tenured star at that point. he really had to outdo himself and everyone else in order to win at 22, and thats what he did.

[Pointguard]

tl-dr - I'm right cause I said so.

Come back when you can provide FACTS and/or stats.
:lol Well if you are incapable of putting together what you see and not know what you see or that Rose was guarding Wade who is a shooting guard or that Rose dominated the elite at his position I can't help you. You only need stats if you didn't see it and therefore admit to your own ignorance. If you didn't see it why talk like you know what you are talking about. Ohhh right because you have the stats right.



Dude, now you're just hyping up a Rose to be an ATG defender. Some of the best defenders in the world have had trouble guarding Wade. You think Wade wasn't making his shots because a PG, who's not even close to being an elite defender, was on him. Try to use your brain a bit here.
Above you admit to not seeing this but now you are an expert. But you can only tell things by stats right? You don't trust what you see at all and don't know basic things. Rose is a great one on one defender. There is not an elite PG that wasn't shut down by Rose.


Wade played like shit in the ENTIRE ECF. That's pretty much a fact. Stop pretending like Rose shut him down. What happened in the RS, when Wade put up 29/6/4 on 56% TS against the Bulls? FACT is, Wade was struggling with AND without Rose guarding him in the ECF.
:lol LOL, during the regular season and the first 3 quarters of the ECF Bogans and Brewer guarded Wade. You are helping to prove my point. This is why stats aren't as good as actually seeing things. There was a reason why Bogans and Brewer weren't guarding Wade when it counted most. Maybe you still don't get it.



Thanks for proving my point. Rose was a terrible MVP and it showed in the ECF, when a real defense actually made him work for his points. What did he shoot? 35%?
Because he got tripled and double teamed and because he didn't have shooters, finishers, veterans, creators, good post play, athletes or even a team built around him. I'm sorry but it happened to Lebron and would any other superstar out there.

[Pointguard]

Being young makes it more impressive...it does not change how good he actually was.

Do you agree?
What I'm saying is that Rose was more impressive than you guys actually understand - or at your level of understanding the game. Comparatively, who else wins MVP in his situation - ever.

Rose did not have finishers, shooters, scorers, creators, an experienced team, spacing, a savvy team, or another superstar but wins MVP as the youngest ever with the best record in the league which had super experienced teams, veteran teams, super talented teams, championship teams while his young, inexperienced, oft injured team had great success amid 11 HOF's (I didn't include Curry here) teams that not one of them were on a team that lacked all of that. And the Bulls totally dominated the elite in the league after Dec. 14th.

If he were older he could compensate for all of that with wit and wisdom of experience. Especially impressive when you consider that nobody in the modern era did so much with so little in those key areas.

[Lebronxrings]

yeah, rose will lift the team to be borderline elite, but all the rose detractors will say it was Porzingis or Melos work. and then when you bring up "but melo and prozingis last year was a 30 win team" and they will respond "but porzingis averaged 4 more points this season,but joakim noahs defense , but coach horniceks system, but thibodeau's defense from 4 years ago".
season hasn't started yet and Nate is already melting down. :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[aj1987]

:lol Well if you are incapable of putting together what you see and not know what you see or that Rose was guarding Wade who is a shooting guard or that Rose dominated the elite at his position I can't help you. You only need stats if you didn't see it and therefore admit to your own ignorance. If you didn't see it why talk like you know what you are talking about. Ohhh right because you have the stats right.
Keep melting kid. I've seen enough games to know that Rose is not even close to being an elite defender and the stats back up what I say. Now, do you want to backup what you're saying?


Above you admit to not seeing this but now you are an expert. But you can only tell things by stats right? You don't trust what you see at all and don't know basic things. Rose is a great one on one defender. There is not an elite PG that wasn't shut down by Rose.
Wait. Where did I say that I did not watch the games. I've probably missed about 20 Heat games since the '08 season. I've missed more games than you probably watched in your entire life. :oldlol:

Yeah, lets continue with the narrative that Rose "shut down" Wade. A feat which defenders like LeBron Kobe, PG, Kawhi, Tony Allen, etc. haven't really been able to achieve.


LOL, during the regular season and the first 3 quarters of the ECF Bogans and Brewer guarded Wade. You are helping to prove my point. This is why stats aren't as good as actually seeing things. There was a reason why Bogans and Brewer weren't guarding Wade when it counted most. Maybe you still don't get it.
What YOU don't understand is that Wade was playing like shit against Bogans and Brewer as well. It wasn't like he has beasting against those two and suddenly Rose shut him down. Really though, how hard is that to understand?

Wade was missing shots that he would make in his sleep. That was just a terrible series for him.


Because he got tripled and double teamed and because he didn't have shooters, finishers, veterans, creators, good post play, athletes or even a team built around him. I'm sorry but it happened to Lebron and would any other superstar out there.
Except any legit superstar would find a way to beat those doubles and "triples". Actual superstars overcome those difficulties, but Rose folded like the bitch he is.

How good was Rose's defense on Wade in the 4th Q of game 5? I remember him fouling Wade on a 3. :facepalm

If you want to stick with your narrative that Rose shut down a player, who wasn't shut down by the LeBron's, Kobe's, Allen's, etc., then I think we're pretty much done here. Come back with FACTS/STATS. Not just a "Cause I said so" statement.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Malik Rose

[DMAVS41]

What I'm saying is that Rose was more impressive than you guys actually understand - or at your level of understanding the game. Comparatively, who else wins MVP in his situation - ever.

Rose did not have finishers, shooters, scorers, creators, an experienced team, spacing, a savvy team, or another superstar but wins MVP as the youngest ever with the best record in the league which had super experienced teams, veteran teams, super talented teams, championship teams while his young, inexperienced, oft injured team had great success amid 11 HOF's (I didn't include Curry here) teams that not one of them were on a team that lacked all of that. And the Bulls totally dominated the elite in the league after Dec. 14th.

If he were older he could compensate for all of that with wit and wisdom of experience. Especially impressive when you consider that nobody in the modern era did so much with so little in those key areas.

We just have to agree to disagree about how good Rose actually was. Implying that almost nobody ever could win MVP on that Bulls team is just ignorant to me. But that isn't the point...

I'm asking if you finally can grasp that age makes it more impressive, but doesn't change how good he was. Could you just answer that please?

[Uncle Drew]

It's Kristaps' show.

[dunksby]

PG is off his meds again, Rose has never been an elite defender in his career, not even a solid defender., that Chicago team had a great defensive structure behind Rose that masked his non-effort on D.

[Pointguard]

Keep melting kid. I've seen enough games to know that Rose is not even close to being an elite defender and the stats back up what I say. Now, do you want to backup what you're saying?
Like I said to the other poster, name me a player that held the elite down like Rose did that year at his position and we can do the comparison. Its simple. I could just give you the stats but its better for me to show you what you don't know with something you came up with.




Wait. Where did I say that I did not watch the games.
1. You're arguing that Brewer and Bogans were holding Wade down like Rose.
2. Your total lack of confidence in what you saw. That is you ask for stats when you saw the games.


I've probably missed about 20 Heat games since the '08 season. I've missed more games than you probably watched in your entire life. :oldlol:
So why do you need stats to interpret games you saw? Thats really rather sad. But hey, you rocked that emoticon.


Yeah, lets continue with the narrative that Rose "shut down" Wade. A feat which defenders like LeBron Kobe, PG, Kawhi, Tony Allen, etc. haven't really been able to achieve.

What YOU don't understand is that Wade was playing like shit against Bogans and Brewer as well. It wasn't like he has beasting against those two and suddenly Rose shut him down. Really though, how hard is that to understand?:lol Good defense is that he misses his shots, better defense is that he doesn't even get to drive or in position to affect other parts of the game. Of course you wouldn't understand that because you've looking for the stat right.

:lol


Except any legit superstar would find a way to beat those doubles and "triples". Actual superstars overcome those difficulties, but Rose folded like the bitch he is.
So name me the player that stepped up to beat the traps and doubles? If you ever played organized ball you understand its the second and third pass that breaks a trap. The trapped player doesn't break the trap as you mention above. The team didnt know how to break a trap.


How good was Rose's defense on Wade in the 4th Q of game 5? I remember him fouling Wade on a 3. :facepalm
[/quote]
Big deal if he did. Rose was exasperated by that time because his team couldn't break a trap - something that is taught in Jr. HS.


If you want to stick with your narrative that Rose shut down a player, who wasn't shut down by the LeBron's, Kobe's, Allen's, etc., then I think we're pretty much done here. Come back with FACTS/STATS. Not just a "Cause I said so" statement. You were done before you started. Like I said name me a year where those guys held down the elite at their position like Rose did.

[Pointguard]

We just have to agree to disagree about how good Rose actually was. Implying that almost nobody ever could win MVP on that Bulls team is just ignorant to me. But that isn't the point... Well we can start by listing all the teams that were lead by a 22 year olds that had the best record in the league in the modern era? None?

Drop that. Lets list all the teams that had the best record in the league without another star, super athletes, finishers, other creators or a steady shooter.

Screw that. Lets list all of the young, newly formed teams, with a brand new coach, the team not built a superstar, and dominated the elite teams during the season?


Age is relevant because experience helps you deal with uncharted waters.
So what you find as ignorance isnt founded in reality. What player has that combination on their resume. Almost all of the modern day superstars suffered in those situations.


I'm asking if you finally can grasp that age makes it more impressive, but doesn't change how good he was. Could you just answer that please?
All players learn the game. All players suffer at his MVP age. If you are being critical of him age is really important because lets look at any player at that age and their abilities to make their team successful. Rose doesn't need the age argument because his contemporaries faired far worse in his position in their primes.

[DMAVS41]

Well we can start by listing all the teams that were lead by a 22 year olds that had the best record in the league in the modern era? None?

Drop that. Lets list all the teams that had the best record in the league without another star, super athletes, finishers, other creators or a steady shooter.

Screw that. Lets list all of the young, newly formed teams, with a brand new coach, the team not built a superstar, and dominated the elite teams during the season?


Age is relevant because experience helps you deal with uncharted waters.
So what you find as ignorance isnt founded in reality. What player has that combination on their resume. Almost all of the modern day superstars suffered in those situations.

All players learn the game. All players suffer at his MVP age. If you are being critical of him age is really important because lets look at any player at that age and their abilities to make their team successful. Rose doesn't need the age argument because his contemporaries faired far worse in his position in their primes.

You seem incapable of understanding my point.

You continue to argue, based on age, and not how good he actually was. We all agree that, based on his age, Rose was great. I don't think I've ever even seen haters refute that he was one of the best players in the game. Again...I think I had him 7th or even higher.

But that doesn't change how good he actually was. Again, you don't get extra points for being 22 or 32...you are just who you are.

Age is not relevant when discussing how good a player actually is.

It is relevant when talking about how impressive something actually is or projecting the future.

You seem to either not comprehend this distinction or be unwilling to grant something so blatantly obvious.

[Pointguard]

You seem incapable of understanding my point.

You continue to argue, based on age, and not how good he actually was. We all agree that, based on his age, Rose was great. I don't think I've ever even seen haters refute that he was one of the best players in the game. Again...I think I had him 7th or even higher.
:lol you know full well you had him at seven. Lets take the other seven when they were with a new team. a young team, an often injured team, without shooters? Its a joke to compare any of them to Rose. Your seven??? Durant??? Why? He just scored a lot, I think only one more basket per game than Rose (like 2.5ppg) but didn't do anything much with his team and for eight years had a guy similar to Rose and never had the best record or dominated the elite. He was younger and definitely not as good as he developed into later. Nor did he have the responsibility Rose had.

Kobe and Wade were both on teams that underachieved and they both had way less responsibility. Both sucked against the better teams and when they had not so stellar teammates.

Howard, not only was Rose domination of Atlanta telling of the difference between he and Howard during the post season, but Rose outscored DH in the paint in a critical matchup late in the season. Rose's play against the elite, far better, Rose's play in the last month for playoff position, far better, Rose's play over the entire course of the season, far better. When I was saying Howard had real leadership issues back then you guys said I was imagining it. Now nobody doubts it.

The only real arguments are Lebron and Dirk if you ask me. I wouldn't mind people saying Wade. But, even all of them sucked when on young teams with horrible spacing. Nevermind injuries, lack of shooters, nobody in else in the top ten of anything. Nobody else even got five first place votes in the MVP voting. Seven guys is just hating. Especially when you consider these other guys records when stressed the same way Rose was.


But that doesn't change how good he actually was. Again, you don't get extra points for being 22 or 32...you are just who you are.

Age is not relevant when discussing how good a player actually is.
I agree. But the hater crew, like yourself, never argue how good he is. You are a hater and do all the negative stuff. The negative stuff is attributable to age and the high number of stresses he incurred because of his high level of responsibilities on a newly formed young team that went thru a ton of changes and misfortunes but still managed to have the best record while dominating the elite. If you are going to assess him you can't ignore all the stuff I bring up. But you guys are so focused on hating, its crazy.


It is relevant when talking about how impressive something actually is or projecting the future.

You seem to either not comprehend this distinction or be unwilling to grant something so blatantly obvious.
Now you should understand.