You guys realize that Shaq is the 4th best center to ever play the game of basketball

[k0kakw0rld]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:

[aj1987]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:
Shaq has arguments over all of them and he's better than Wilt. Wilt literally has no argument over Shaq except his padded stats in a shittier era. Shaq would absolutely murder any of them, if he faced them though.

Why are you melting though? Shaq has been retired for 5 years, kid.

[Mr Feeny]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:

Shaq is a near 30 point finals scorer. At the highest stage, Shaq is moe dominant than any of those.

[GimmeThat]

he didn't just wanted to play the Center position, but also the Power Forward position, in result of that, after his stint with the Heat, he spent time looking for teams who were willing to take the risk on the salary with him, all while he believed that those teams perhaps had perimeter defense greater than those Lakers championship team he was on, if not at least on par.

[kurple]

Ranking Wilt over Shaq is extremely arguable

[HylianNightmare]

Peak for peak he's got an argument over all of them

[aj1987]

Peak for peak he's got an argument over all of them
Had arguably the best prime as well (I'd pick KAJ due to the longer prime though).

[jayfan]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:

Go take it up with Shaq himself. :confusedshrug:

He readily acknowledges he's not the best, but wants to be considered most dominant.

.

[PP34Deuce]

I've seen analysts say Shaq was so naturally talented that combined with his size and athletiscm, he could average 30-11-3- 2 blocks and a steal.

They always say if Shaq was truly dedicated to the game, he could have been an even bigger monster. He could have been a 35PPG scorer. he could have brought in 13-14 rebounds instead of 11. He could have blocked 3-4 shots.

He's a top 10 ATG. He could have been top 3 all time with the right dedication.

[Prime_Shaq]

I've seen analysts say Shaq was so naturally talented that combined with his size and athletiscm, he could average 30-11-3- 2 blocks and a steal.

They always say if Shaq was truly dedicated to the game, he could have been an even bigger monster. He could have been a 35PPG scorer. he could have brought in 13-14 rebounds instead of 11. He could have blocked 3-4 shots.

He's a top 10 ATG. He could have been top 3 all time with the right dedication.
In an all-time draft based solely on talent and physique I have no doubt Shaq would go #1.

[Psileas]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:

Some consider natural giftedness as part of what provides dominance and measure "best" on a "pound for pound" basis. Ironically, they only do so for bigs, as if, e.g, Jordan's natural gifts did not play a huge role in him becoming "Jordan".
However, I don't. I accept this part as it is and don't indulge in stupid "what if Shaq was 6'3" scenarios. But I also don't consider Shaq the most dominant among these guys. He's the worst defender of them all, the weakest passer of them all, the second worst rebounder after Kareem, the worst shot blocker (although he's a great intimidator due to his size) and the most injury prone. Hence, not the most dominant, ergo, not the best.

[k0kakw0rld]

Shaq has arguments over all of them and he's better than Wilt. Wilt literally has no argument over Shaq except his padded stats in a shittier era. Shaq would absolutely murder any of them, if he faced them though.

Why are you melting though? Shaq has been retired for 5 years, kid.
Melting? Who? Me? :oldlol: Simply stating the obvious.

Nobody ranks superstars according to their peaks. You people need to stop with this "He had the goat peak" ish. A could've been career does not count. I'll take high IQ, fundamentals and a two way kinda impact on the floor, leadership and pure dominance when needed. Duncan gives you that and you are guaranteed 100% effort with him every night.

He is the better player offensively and defensively.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Some consider natural giftedness as part of what provides dominance and measure "best" on a "pound for pound" basis. Ironically, they only do so for bigs, as if, e.g, Jordan's natural gifts did not play a huge role in him becoming "Jordan".
However, I don't. I accept this part as it is and don't indulge in stupid "what if Shaq was 6'3" scenarios. But I also don't consider Shaq the most dominant among these guys. He's the worst defender of them all, the weakest passer of them all, the second worst rebounder after Kareem, the worst shot blocker (although he's a great intimidator due to his size) and the most injury prone. Hence, not the most dominant, ergo, not the best.

Dominance = prime/peak. Let's just go with peak.

Worst defender? Arguable. True, he wasn't a defensive player of the year type of guy all the time.

At his peak, he was. Maybe not goat level, but extremely good on that end, 2nd in dpoy voting that year I believe.

As a passer and stuff, I don't see how it's fair to look at it that way. It's more fair to look at it just in offensive contribution, so Russell is clearly already out, so it goes to wilt and Kareem. In pure "dominance" shaq clearly is better than Kareem I would say.

Not all points are created equal. Just because Kobe scores more points at a better efficiency than shaq does one year during their prime years, doesn't mean it's more "effective" you know what I mean?

I mean, when shaq seals his defender at the 6ft ish mark, the possession would be virtually over.

In terms of dominance, I feel how they do one on one is important, since that's what dominance means I would say, no one can guard you. While Kareem certainly was hard to stop, it wasn't the same. Having the ability to get an open hook/skyhook isn't the same as literally getting pushed out of bounds and getting dunked on off a post up.

Wilt was similar to shaq, but it's a fact that he relied on skill more than brute force, he said it himself iirc, Thurmond said so as well, so same thing.

One way has variance. With Hakeem and Kareem, they were extremely hard to stop, they could find ways to kill their guys in isolation, but, given that they have an off possession, their hook goes off, or they mess up their footwork a bit, they could be limited. The same thing goes for shaq, but for obvious reasons, less variance,
,

To quote someone else on this


A player who is that damn dangerous just needs to be defended differently. Keeping him away from the rim becomes the defenses only lifeline. The difference here is that you can't freaking stop Shaq from getting there. You have to hit him, send doubles, drop your guards, and generally compromise your entire strategy. Because when Shaq gets a deep seal, it's over completely. Like, there is no more sure thing in NBA history. So yeah, defenses have to be keyed in to his every move. And unlike LeHron or Jordan, who like to dribble around the top of the key, Shaq is doing this just by being present. A perimeter creator like Kobe can do his thing unimpeded while the defense is already so compromised by he insane gravity Shaq creates.

Seriously, no player has drawn more doubles, caused more fouls (and,like, fouled out entire front lines, an underrated effect). He was an excellent passer too.

And as I've mentioned earlier, Shaq's massive looming threat inspired such fear in opposing defenses that he warped entire teams and forced borderline suicidal strategies to be used. And this wasn't just on offense: if Shaq beat you down the floor, even just to get post position, it was over. Done. So the man guarding Shaq has to have a clock in his head on offense as well. This was one of Shaq's favorite techniques; just beat his man down the floor and seal him off. If Shaq got to the free throw line before you, that possession was a loss.


Don't understand this idea that shaq was a slow hulking behemoth. Even post weight gain he wasn't un athletic or anything, he was athletic even ignoring his size, people just have the image of old broken down shaq in their minds.

Btw, rebounding wise, rebound percentage shaq and Kareem were similar, but shaq got more offensive rebounds vs defensive compared to Kareem in terms of ratio

Also, I don't get the idea he was only good for like a year. Age 20-30 he was an absolute dominant force.

With a reduced role in lower minutes at age 33 he was still a 20-10 guy

Even in Phoenix he wasn't exactly crap, a shadow of his former self, atrocious on defense but that's typically how 36 year olds are. After that he turned to crap, but he had a relatively long career as a effective player.

Also, he isn't necessarily worse than all of these guys. Kareem I believe is clearly ahead, personally I have him 4th myself, but Russell you could argue is completely era based and not duplicatable today, wilt you could argue has more questionable impact.

Not saying it, just saying you could argue it.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'd like to have seen Shaq roughly maintain the size/athleticism as his early Orlando days, coupled with the IQ/experience during the championship 3peat. I was watching some early Shaq a few weeks ago and was shocked at how trim he was, while still being a crazy physical specimen. Had forgotten....would have been right in the thick of the GOAT discussion if he did. I see no reason why Shaq couldn't have equaled MJ's ring count had he committed himself to fitness more, and at least a 3 time MVP( being conservative).

[Nastradamus]

KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq? :confusedshrug:

5th if you wanna count Duncan as a center :D

Most dominant? How can you be the most dominant and not be the best at your respective position smh... :oldlol:

Hakeem and Kareem. But Shaq is better than Russell

[Psileas]

Worst defender? Arguable. True, he wasn't a defensive player of the year type of guy all the time.

At his peak, he was. Maybe not goat level, but extremely good on that end, 2nd in dpoy voting that year I believe.


2000. That's practically it. He was all-D 2nd team twice more, post prime Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Zo, never coming close to being DPOY and barely ever receiving any single votes. All the others have way more accolades, despite the DPOY award or the All-D teams not existing before certain points.


As a passer and stuff, I don't see how it's fair to look at it that way. It's more fair to look at it just in offensive contribution, so Russell is clearly already out, so it goes to wilt and Kareem. In pure "dominance" shaq clearly is better than Kareem I would say.


If you want combinations that create some sort of a bigger picture, as you try to do with offense (with which I also don't necessarily agree, since great passers can involve whole teams offensively, unlike pure scorers), someone can argue that Russell's defense has been more impactful than anything, defense or offense, any big has ever offered, so, in the wider picture, Russell is not out. He just dominates in a way people aren't used to associate with dominance.


Don't understand this idea that shaq was a slow hulking behemoth. Even post weight gain he wasn't un athletic or anything, he was athletic even ignoring his size, people just have the image of old broken down shaq in their minds.


I never claimed he was, if this implies me in a way. If anything, Shaq's combination of size, athleticism and ferocity of playing, dunking on everyone, throwing defenders down etc, is what most associate with dominance and everyone knows this was Shaq's greatest strength. But in the certain fields I mentioned, Shaq doesn't get anywhere near in terms of equal excellence, therefore, this casts doubts in the whole MDE thing.


Also, I don't get the idea he was only good for like a year. Age 20-30 he was an absolute dominant force.

With a reduced role in lower minutes at age 33 he was still a 20-10 guy

Even in Phoenix he wasn't exactly crap, a shadow of his former self, atrocious on defense but that's typically how 36 year olds are. After that he turned to crap, but he had a relatively long career as a effective player.

I also never claimed this. He played at a very high level for many years, but it's a fact that he was missing games in every single season, often 10+, thus bringing down his teams' record potential and making their playoff schedule harder.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

2000. That's practically it. He was all-D 2nd team twice more, post prime Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Zo, never coming close to being DPOY and barely ever receiving any single votes. All the others have way more accolades, despite the DPOY award or the All-D teams not existing before certain points.



If you want combinations that create some sort of a bigger picture, as you try to do with offense (with which I also don't necessarily agree, since great passers can involve whole teams offensively, unlike pure scorers), someone can argue that Russell's defense has been more impactful than anything, defense or offense, any big has ever offered, so, in the wider picture, Russell is not out. He just dominates in a way people aren't used to associate with dominance.



I never claimed he was, if this implies me in a way. If anything, Shaq's combination of size, athleticism and ferocity of playing, dunking on everyone, throwing defenders down etc, is what most associate with dominance and everyone knows this was Shaq's greatest strength. But in the certain fields I mentioned, Shaq doesn't get anywhere near in terms of equal excellence, therefore, this casts doubts in the whole MDE thing.



I also never claimed this. He played at a very high level for many years, but it's a fact that he was missing games in every single season, often 10+, thus bringing down his teams' record potential and making their playoff schedule harder.

1. Yes, but it's arguable his offensive impact was enough to tip the scales in his favor

2. What I mean is that while they were better passers than Shaq, other than 66-67-68 wilt, none have a large enough advantage on Shaq, (a great post passer as is) to make up for his dominance on the offensive end. There's also that gravity effect, only wilt has the same Gravity Shaq did, and since Shaq used his strength more, you could argue defenses were changed even more defending him than wilt.
Russell is an interesting case. While what you said is true, I really, really doubt he could do the same today. I don't think you can dominate on defense to that extent in the modern game, with so much more emphasis being put on spacing (not that Russell wasn't great at guarding outside the rim, goddamn ridiculously good at every facet of defense).

Otoh, one may say he was the outlier, so it's an opinion thing.

3. Not accusing u, accusing the guy who started the thread. While Shaq may not be as good as others in certain areas, it doesn't really effect him, because it flat out works.

4. Once again, not accusing u

I'm not saying he was necessarily the best player here all time, I'm saying that healthy at his peak he may have been the most dominant.


I can't really go on with this because I have work to do, but still, I'm not accusing u of anything, it's some of the others, u seem like a pretty chill dude

Also, I was arguing primarily for peak and prime alone in terms of dominance. Take in longevity and it goes to all time rankings. Dominance wise I favor peak more which is why I mentioned 2000 defense being very solid

[jayfan]

I've seen analysts say Shaq was so naturally talented that combined with his size and athletiscm, he could average 30-11-3- 2....


In an all-time draft based solely on talent and physique I have no doubt Shaq would go #1.

A basketball player who can't shoot can only be considered so talented.

Strength and athleticism are different from talent.

.

[Big164]

Wilt made two first all defensive teams over peak Kareem! Peak fecking kareem!!! also won a ring on him and idiots still rank kareem higher.

Both kareem and shaq were soft babysh#t compared to Wilt. Wilt was like a 300 lb 7'1 version of Dennis Rodman. ELITE defender, rebounder

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Dream
6. Duncan

[aj1987]

Melting? Who? Me? :oldlol: Simply stating the obvious.

Nobody ranks superstars according to their peaks. You people need to stop with this "He had the goat peak" ish. A could've been career does not count. I'll take high IQ, fundamentals and a two way kinda impact on the floor, leadership and pure dominance when needed. Duncan gives you that and you are guaranteed 100% effort with him every night.

He is the better player offensively and defensively.
Are you ****ing retarded? Shaq had an amazingly long prime as well. **** the peak. Dude was a monster till late in his career. Never even came close to being as big a choker as Ilt was. Heck, give Shaq Magic/the HOF'ers that Magic had, he'd have over 8 rings. Even if he was playing with the likes of Baylor and a 40 PPG West, he wouldn't choke as bad as Chokerlain.

Shaq in on another level completely.

Ilt Chokerlain was a choking mental midget bitch, compared to the ATG C's.

Know your history, kiddo. Best not step, when the last thing you remember is your mama's titty.

[ILLsmak]

To be fair, C is the deepest position historically.

-Smak

[feyki]

Wilt made two first all defensive teams over peak Kareem! Peak fecking kareem!!! also won a ring on him and idiots still rank kareem higher.

Both kareem and shaq were soft babysh#t compared to Wilt. Wilt was like a 300 lb 7'1 version of Dennis Rodman. ELITE defender, rebounder

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Dream
6. Duncan

Kareem known as worse defender than Wilt . And best defensive years of Wilt came in LA uniform ( actually after 67 ) .

But Kareem get ranked in half of times over Wilt defensively for all defensive teams .

It does tell us the truth about Kareem,Wilt and their defensive impacts .

[aj1987]

Kareem known as worse defender than Wilt . And best defensive years of Wilt came in LA uniform ( actually after 67 ) .

But Kareem get ranked in half of times over Wilt defensively for all defensive teams .

It does tell us the truth about Kareem,Wilt and their defensive impacts .
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Just because they didn't call his obvious goal tends doesn't make him a better defender.

Heck, most of the 'famous' Wilt "blocks" are so obviously goal tends, that it's not even funny.

[aj1987]

You bitches post Chokerlain's highlights, but I'm just going to post ONE video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtmXpAeWeH4

Dude hit everything from hooks to jumpshots in that video. None of his blocks were uncalled goaltends like Chokerlain's either. Look at the defensive attention he drew as well. Those passes? Damn! He didn't need to pad his stats like Chokerlain either. He got them within the flow of the game. Shaq is the 2nd GOAT C behind KAJ and the only reason is longevity.

If you guys are thinking I'm cherrypicking videos, I'm posting the FIRST video that pops up when you search for "Shaq full highlights".

Show me ONE game in which Chokerlain performed like that. Dat spin move at 6:50 doe... :eek:

[Prime_Shaq]

A basketball player who can't shoot can only be considered so talented.

Strength and athleticism are different from talent.

.
Disregarding his footwork? His passing? His touch around the rim? His talent was never questioned, his work ethic was.

[G-train]

Comparisons between eras is a futile exercise.

[Dray n Klay]

No Center ever won with a worse 2nd option than 2000 Shaq




/thread

[deja vu]

All great players but I would pick Shaq over any of them.

One on one, Shaq destroys any of them.

[k0kakw0rld]

All great players but I would pick Shaq over any of them.

One on one, Shaq destroys any of them.
Don't make me do it young blood.

Shaq is not seeing Duncan at all

Don't try me or I will expose the facts brother.

[deja vu]

Don't make me do it young blood.

Shaq is not seeing Duncan at all

Don't try me or I will expose the facts brother.
I watched Shaq destroy Duncan in the playoffs time and again.

Those are the facts that matter.

[Mr Feeny]

Don't make me do it young blood.

Shaq is not seeing Duncan at all

Don't try me or I will expose the facts brother.

Come on now. Longevity favors Duncan but Shaq has always owned him head to head and more importantly has a much higher peak.

[aj1987]

Don't make me do it young blood.

Shaq is not seeing Duncan at all

Don't try me or I will expose the facts brother.
Your dumbass stans Deron Williams. FOH, kid. :roll: